View Full Version : I Threw The P.o.s. In The Trash.
WANDERER
10-04-06, 08:00 AM
That's It - No More Hr20. No Amount Of Software Patches Will Hold This Boat Afloat. Poor Implementation.
Works great for me!!!!!!!!
jsevinsk
10-04-06, 08:06 AM
That's It - No More Hr20. No Amount Of Software Patches Will Hold This Boat Afloat. Poor Implementation.
Where's your trash can located? :)
That's It - No More Hr20. No Amount Of Software Patches Will Hold This Boat Afloat. Poor Implementation.
Wow, yours must really suck. But what choices do we have? Cable, Dish? This whole thing is one major mess. Reminds me of the early days of personal computers, after DOS, when MS first released Windows 3.1. Crashes, blue screens, unreliability, etc. It didn't end until XP finally hit the consumer market in 2001. Seems like DTV is determined to follow MS.
How can they release a piece of hardware without testing the software capabilities? Three downloads in a month? Earl, are you listening? Sooner or later, you need to be honest with yourself. DTV has taken the wrong path in the DVR strategy, and all because they thought NDS could save them some money (instead of sticking with Tivo).
It's not just the people on these forums having problems, of course. Only most consumers don't hang out on the Net to air their issues. They call tech support, and get very few answers.
Sad.
JoeyJoJo
10-04-06, 08:07 AM
I'll give you $20 for it -- you don't even have to wipe off the coffee grounds.
Earl Bonovich
10-04-06, 08:09 AM
Well okay then.... See ya.
911medic
10-04-06, 08:12 AM
Well okay then.... See ya.QFT.
PoitNarf
10-04-06, 08:15 AM
QFT.
Quantum Field Theory? :p
911medic
10-04-06, 08:17 AM
LOL
(if your next post is some alternate expansion of this abbreviation, I'll have to smack ya! :D)
Earl Bonovich
10-04-06, 08:17 AM
How can they release a piece of hardware without testing the software capabilities? Three downloads in a month? Earl, are you listening? Sooner or later, you need to be honest with yourself. DTV has taken the wrong path in the DVR strategy, and all because they thought NDS could save them some money (instead of sticking with Tivo).
Yes, I am listening
What is there to be honest about?
It is not like I don't see "your" posts about the problems.
How many of you software jockies (like my self), would try to write their own DVR software if they had the time and resources to do so.... [raise hand]
You might not agree with the path they have taken, and the route that have taken... and that is your right.
Would you rather they sit on the software updates and only do one a month? Or get them out as they are finished.... and yes, they do test them.... but just as you have seen here in the forums... there are people who have problems, there are plenty of people that don't.
So... unless you can show me EXACTLY how to test some of these features that brake.. .ake exactly how you can test them in a simulation, or physically... how is any amount of "testing" go to show these problems....
I have said it many many many many many many times before....
It takes two to tango.... So all of those that where in the meetings when DirecTV and TiVo met to discuss any future DVR plans raise your hands..... none of us where there... none of us know exactly what was going on.... none of us know why EXACTLY DirecTV opted to go their own way... and frankly why most other providers have gone their own way...
Has DirecTV had a smooth sailing with their own DVR products... no.
Neither has Dish, Comcast, TimeWarner, and pretty much ALL the providres out there. Even the beloved TiVo has problems (see www.tivocommunity.com).
Will it improve in time? Probably only Hiro (from NBC-Heroes) can tell us....
For now... there is not one single perfect DVR solution out there... ther eis not one single DVR product that has worked perfectly for 100% of people, 100% of the time.... simply doesn't exist.
If you don't like the state of the DirecTV DVR products... seriously... turn them off, go else where... that will solve your problems with the DirecTV DVR line of receivers. As the phrase goes: "The grass is always greener on the other side"... that is until of course you get there and realize it was fresh sod laid down....
Capmeister
10-04-06, 08:36 AM
Actually, other than a hardware problem (bad hard drive) I've never had a problem with my HR10-250. I'm not sure speed in setting a season pass is a problem, per se. But other than when the signal is there (rain fade, storm kicking out OTA--yes, OTA has rain fade), I don't miss recordings.
I'm willing to try (and will have it installed on Saturday) this HR20 and if by the time my HR10 is useless to me this one isn't working as smoothly, I'll find another service provider with better service should they exist.
But here's what is important to me: D* listening and making improvements. If they do the dual buffer thing and change the guide so it doesn't take 2 hits of the button to get to the grid, that will show me they're listening to the customer and attempting to meet their wishes. That will go a long way for me. I like that. I don't see it with a lot of companies, and that is important to me.
(And a backdoor hacked 30 second skip would be nice if they keep the slip this slow.)
bigviking
10-04-06, 08:38 AM
Well, I should have my HR20s soon (as soon as Ironwood gets more in). I'm open minded about it, and I also will still have a couple DirecTivos in the house as backups for recording everything.
I kind of like the idea of more rather than fewer releases, and of a rapid development cycle. The only ting I would say around that is that two many releases could become overly burdensome for the developers. But, the reality is that is is usually pretty easy for developers to say how safe they feel a fix is, and if a simple fix has been implemented, and it is easy to test it, in my opinion it should be released right away.
As far as testing goes, I wonder if they have considered building a hardware and software based automated testing mechanism.
It would take a little doing, but it would be possible to test new releases with very little human intervention if done properly. The automated test suite could even do things like interrupt power at various times. It doesn't feel like thay have anything like this, but more like they just have a small team of beta users.
They should really consider spending a few $$ in building a more automated means of testing new releases.
Earl, since it appears that D* has a beta program where non-D* employees get hardware before the general population (based on you having a HR20 early) maybe D* should look for folks reporting bunches of problems and put them in the program. You've said yourself that your HR20 has been fairly stable, so whatever you're doing isn't stressing the box where other are so put them in the mix. In the business world that was how I got into a number of alpha/beta programs because I had reported a number of issues with GA products, D* might want to do that vs. have someone that reports no problems.
I kind of agree with Earl on the testing point. It is really hard to test all senarios in QA. When we do an initial release of our (financial software)product, it is pretty mad dealing with all the issues that crop up from users that did things that we never thought of. When you design and implement a product, you have in your mind how it is to be used. So, your testing is tainted in that manner. You try to think out of the box and what situation can occur in the real world, but the truth is that testing kind of gravitates towards the happy path.
Also, the first night I used this thing I was used to my HR10. I was ready to throw it in the trash as well. But, I am getting used to it and it isn't that bad. There are some annoyances and frustrating things(ie Channels I Receive not working). But but they will be fixed. So I am going to be patient and see how it turns out.
Earl Bonovich
10-04-06, 09:01 AM
Earl, since it appears that D* has a beta program where non-D* employees get hardware before the general population (based on you having a HR20 early) maybe D* should look for folks reporting bunches of problems and put them in the program. You've said yourself that your HR20 has been fairly stable, so whatever you're doing isn't stressing the box where other are so put them in the mix. In the business world that was how I got into a number of alpha/beta programs because I had reported a number of issues with GA products, D* might want to do that vs. have someone that reports no problems.
Actually DirecTV DOESN'T have an external beta program. Me getting the box early was similar to reviewers getting pre-release hardware... I wasn't part of an external beta program.
I am stessing the box... It is my primary usage box... on one of the two HR20's I have 32 Series Links (the other has 18).... I record on average 8 hours of content per day (sometimes more).
But none the less....
I know DirecTV is examining how they can go about doing an external Beta or at least Release Candidate program using non-DirecTV employees.... but when/if it will happen... I don't know.
bigviking
10-04-06, 09:01 AM
I kind of agree with Earl on the testing point. It is really hard to test all senarios in QA. When we do an initial release of our (financial software)product, it is pretty mad dealing with all the issues that crop up from users that did things that we never thought of. When you design and implement a product, you have in your mind how it is to be used. So, your testing is tainted in that manner. You try to think out of the box and what situation can occur in the real world, but the truth is that testing kind of gravitates towards the happy path.
Also, the first night I used this thing I was used to my HR10. I was ready to throw it in the trash as well. But, I am getting used to it and it isn't that bad. There are some annoyances and frustrating things(ie Channels I Receive not working). But but they will be fixed. So I am going to be patient and see how it turns out.
One more point beyond my previous suggestion of developing an automated testing mechanism ...
I feel like DirecTV should activate the ethernet port immediately even if only for pushing debugging information to their server. If I were developing this system for DirecTV and I was made aware of a bug that a user had found it could be very helpful for me to be able to get some detailed info on what really happened (basic info about their database, stack traces, log files, ...). DirecTV could even have a server that collects info from it's DVRs and proactively looks for problems, and reports them to developers. When a problem occurs accross many DVRs, it could do some analysis of the what the affected units have in common in terms of their setup, and report that to developers.
I just feel that without something like this, in many respects they are flying blind and spending far too much time trying to re-produce bugs.
Actually DirecTV DOESN'T have an external beta program. Me getting the box early was similar to reviewers getting pre-release hardware... I wasn't part of an external beta program.
OK, sorry, I guess I read too much into you having it early. I guess you're stressing isn't as bad as others. I know I don't think I'm stressing mine too much but both needed to be rebooted yesterday due to 'strange' behavior.
I have only had minor glitches with the box. Otherwise I have enjoyed it alot. The only thing I miss is the 30-skip, but I am getting used the SLIP feature. I moved the HR10 to the bedroom, and starting to find the Tivo software clumsy compared to the HR20.
I too have over 30 Series Links and the box has yet to miss one of them. There are times both receivers are recording and I'm watching something previously recorded without a glitch.
Are there issues with the box.......YES.
Does it appear that D* is addressing them......YES
Will everyone eventually be completely happy.....NO.....but most will.
I'm sticking with it because it has a lot of good features. Actually, when I use the HR10 in my bedroom now, I find it takes way to long program things as compared to the HR20.
BTW......I changed my avatar also; but no one noticed :confused: . It took 2 tries because the forum software crashed.....LET'S GET THAT FIXED NOW......just kidding.
brewer4
10-04-06, 09:55 AM
My unit is awesome. Anyone itching to throw their's in the trash, send it my way.
AppAlum2003
10-04-06, 10:07 AM
I'd just like to point out that I got my HR20 a week ago and haven't had to reset once... I've had no problems with lock up or missed recordings. I'm exceptionally happy at this point. I upgraded from the R15 to this new box and I'd have to say that the UI is GREATLY improved (speed, overall look, remote.)
The only complaint I would have is that sometimes the HD picture is pixelated or looks "strained," especially on sports. However, this is (I'm guessing) more of a DirecTV HD complaint.
Overall, EXTREMELY glad that I made the upgrade!
carlsbad_bolt_fan
10-04-06, 10:11 AM
That's It - No More Hr20. No Amount Of Software Patches Will Hold This Boat Afloat. Poor Implementation.
Right. Something tells me you NEVER had an HR20.
Ah well. Enjoy your local cable company!
(And my HR20, other than the manual recording problem, works FINE.)
lbostons
10-04-06, 10:13 AM
Well, I will miss your avatar! Peace out!
Jeremy W
10-04-06, 10:45 AM
I know DirecTV is examining how they can go about doing an external Beta or at least Release Candidate program using non-DirecTV employees.... but when/if it will happen... I don't know.
I would be first in line for this program if they ever do it. They really should!
I would be first in line for this program if they ever do it. They really should!
I would love to be part of this program, as well.
talbain
10-04-06, 11:17 AM
I would be first in line for this program if they ever do it. They really should!
they already are doing it with the hr20. congratulations
Jeremy W
10-04-06, 11:19 AM
they already are doing it with the hr20. congratulations
:rolleyes: :nono2:
talbain
10-04-06, 11:23 AM
well, it's true. it's pretty clear that the hr20 is not quite ready for primetime, both literally (with the dropped recordings) and figuratively...
Jeremy W
10-04-06, 11:29 AM
well, it's true. it's pretty clear that the hr20 is not quite ready for primetime, both literally (with the dropped recordings) and figuratively...
Well, they just released a new update 12 hours ago. Let's give it a chance.
As for the HR20 not being ready for prime time... I am getting a new HDTV for my basement, and the plan was to just stick an H20 down there. But my family likes the HR20 so much that they now want to get another one for that TV. So... yeah.
Yes, I am listening
What is there to be honest about?
It is not like I don't see "your" posts about the problems.
How many of you software jockies (like my self), would try to write their own DVR software if they had the time and resources to do so.... [raise hand]
You might not agree with the path they have taken, and the route that have taken... and that is your right.
Would you rather they sit on the software updates and only do one a month? Or get them out as they are finished.... and yes, they do test them.... but just as you have seen here in the forums... there are people who have problems, there are plenty of people that don't.
So... unless you can show me EXACTLY how to test some of these features that brake.. .ake exactly how you can test them in a simulation, or physically... how is any amount of "testing" go to show these problems....
I have said it many many many many many many times before....
It takes two to tango.... So all of those that where in the meetings when DirecTV and TiVo met to discuss any future DVR plans raise your hands..... none of us where there... none of us know exactly what was going on.... none of us know why EXACTLY DirecTV opted to go their own way... and frankly why most other providers have gone their own way...
Has DirecTV had a smooth sailing with their own DVR products... no.
Neither has Dish, Comcast, TimeWarner, and pretty much ALL the providres out there. Even the beloved TiVo has problems (see www.tivocommunity.com).
Will it improve in time? Probably only Hiro (from NBC-Heroes) can tell us....
For now... there is not one single perfect DVR solution out there... ther eis not one single DVR product that has worked perfectly for 100% of people, 100% of the time.... simply doesn't exist.
If you don't like the state of the DirecTV DVR products... seriously... turn them off, go else where... that will solve your problems with the DirecTV DVR line of receivers. As the phrase goes: "The grass is always greener on the other side"... that is until of course you get there and realize it was fresh sod laid down....
Guess you're right. The simple act of reliably recording a program for playback does seem a little bit much for a new digitial video RECORDER! I can see how they can't predict that issue being a problem. Why I bet every one of their "pre-testers" (employees, Earl, et al) never had the "black screen of death" frozen recording issue pop up, so when it was time to release the box, they figured, "Heck, we didn't see one single problem, we didn't miss one recording, so let 'er rip."
C'mon. I'm not asking for perfection. But the one, single, critical, important thing a DVR should do is record programs reliably! Otherwise, it's just a glorified HD receiver, right? Voice sync, I can fix (www.lipfix.com), pixelated screens, they typically go away; voice dropouts, minor annoyance. But frozen recorded shows, hmmm. I can say in my long association with Directv and Tivo boxes, I have never missed a show for that reason - in 6-plus years! Now, it's a regular occurence within the past two weeks.
It's like getting a fridge and the freezer section works off and on. I realize these are computers, and as such, are much less reliable than other home electronics. But there must have been one or two times when someone using one of these boxes before they were released had a problem recording and playing back data. This black screen issue is a complete surprise to DTV? Yet, they were sold (but mostly given away to keep the churn rate down). Even for a free box, why create such hostility among your customers? Earl, you know all there is to know about DTV. Have they let you in on that secret? If so, please share it with we mere mortals. A simple explantion would do.
As I said, I've been a DTV sub for nearly seven years, so I guess I deserve the right to complain. On balance, I've been very happy with the service, gear, etc. I just don't get this latest strategy for dumping "some" poorly performing units on the masses. Of course, Earl, your machine never fails, works like a charm. I'd love to hear about your alleged calls to DTV to complain. Some of us, however, haven't been so lucky with the HR-20, and it's somewhat of a shock after all this anticipation. We finally get the dream machine, and it's a nightmare for many of us.
Anyway, I am glad they are downloading fixes, and I am not tossing my HR-20 in the dumpster. Guess I am just a little stunned that a digital video recorder CAN'T RECORD and PLAY BACK reliably (and that is the key word here). And, in addition, as you've reported, they haven't figured out why there is a problem, even as we argue the point.
Ugh.
talbain
10-04-06, 11:50 AM
i am giving it a chance. i actually love the damn thing...when it works properly. but as i've said, i can't accept a product that does not record flawlessly. my tivo has never once missed a recording, and i guess i'm now spoiled. i've now missed 4 shows in a month because the damn hr20 can't record properly. i understand they're working on the problems, but still, this should never have happened on a product they have aimed squarely at replacing the hd tivo...
Earl Bonovich
10-04-06, 12:13 PM
Why I bet every one of their "pre-testers" (employees, Earl, et al) never had the "black screen of death" frozen recording issue pop up, so when it was time to release the box, they figured, "Heck, we didn't see one single problem, we didn't miss one recording, so let 'er rip."
.....
Even for a free box, why create such hostility among your customers? Earl, you know all there is to know about DTV. Have they let you in on that secret? If so, please share it with we mere mortals. A simple explantion would do.
......
Of course, Earl, your machine never fails, works like a charm. I'd love to hear about your alleged calls to DTV to complain. Some of us, however, haven't been so lucky with the HR-20, and it's somewhat of a shock after all this anticipation. We finally get the dream machine, and it's a nightmare for many of us.
....
And, in addition, as you've reported, they haven't figured out why there is a problem, even as we argue the point.
What if that is the case? What if every test they have setup to run, and their entire Beta team says they have had no problem.... ? That happens in a LOT of products...... Software and Hardware Products. There is no one perfect test plan that is going to cover 100%, 100% of time... just isn't possible.
So what else are you to do if your test crew states that based on their testing, they haven't identified any issues... Seriouslly... what do you do?
As another example.... not picking on TiVo here... but look at the 6.3 and 6.3a software releases... do you think both TiVo and DirecTV didn't test that before it went out? Or they just did the coding and rolled it out.... but yet, something got through their testing... and wasn't seen until it got to consumer boxes...
It happens.... can testing be improved... sure... but how is the question? How do you simulate ever consumers home and setup... all the different combination of recordings, conflicts, locals, button combinations... ect... you can't.
Should the box be corrected yet... but to think that DirecTV willy nilly threw a product out there, to frustrate their source of income (customers), is crazy.
Where have I proclaimed that I know everything about DTV... if I did I would have the real reason for the TiVo split.... I have some contacts there, and I get the information from them.... the rest is just learned knowledge from years up here on these forums.
And my box has failed... as recently as this week (Which I started a dedicated thread)... up till then... yes... I have had the "blessed" boxes, that haven't had problems. And I am not alone...... do you think they all are making it up too? But of course, it is not possible that someone could have an HR20 that is working... because yours (and others), have had issues.
And ... on your last point... I choose my words very carefully when I post things.
I said they don't have it fixed yet, they are working to eliminating the root cause.
(Aka... they know what is causing it, now they are working to fix it....)
bigviking
10-04-06, 01:08 PM
What if that is the case? What if every test they have setup to run, and their entire Beta team says they have had no problem.... ? That happens in a LOT of products...... Software and Hardware Products. There is no one perfect test plan that is going to cover 100%, 100% of time... just isn't possible.
So what else are you to do if your test crew states that based on their testing, they haven't identified any issues... Seriouslly... what do you do?
As another example.... not picking on TiVo here... but look at the 6.3 and 6.3a software releases... do you think both TiVo and DirecTV didn't test that before it went out? Or they just did the coding and rolled it out.... but yet, something got through their testing... and wasn't seen until it got to consumer boxes...
It happens.... can testing be improved... sure... but how is the question? How do you simulate ever consumers home and setup... all the different combination of recordings, conflicts, locals, button combinations... ect... you can't.
Should the box be corrected yet... but to think that DirecTV willy nilly threw a product out there, to frustrate their source of income (customers), is crazy.
Where have I proclaimed that I know everything about DTV... if I did I would have the real reason for the TiVo split.... I have some contacts there, and I get the information from them.... the rest is just learned knowledge from years up here on these forums.
And my box has failed... as recently as this week (Which I started a dedicated thread)... up till then... yes... I have had the "blessed" boxes, that haven't had problems. And I am not alone...... do you think they all are making it up too? But of course, it is not possible that someone could have an HR20 that is working... because yours (and others), have had issues.
And ... on your last point... I choose my words very carefully when I post things.
I said they don't have it fixed yet, they are working to eliminating the root cause.
(Aka... they know what is causing it, now they are working to fix it....)
This is going to sound backwards to many of you, but I have seen it happen to many times not to mention it ...
Sometimes when a large group of people is responsible for beta testing, what happens is that each member of the test group doesn't feel much of a sense of responsibility for ensuring the quality of the software (they all know that they are just one of many people testing the software, and if there is a bug someone else will find it, right ?). Because of this, simply having more testers can sometimes have the opposite result from what you want. In my opinion, a small group of dedicated testers that is held personally responsible for QA is the ideal scenario. It's not how many people do the testing that matters, it's how many different things get tested that counts.
Anyway, from what I can tell the most common gripes from new versions are that it didn't fix some existing issue, not that it introduced a new issue. So, to me it seems like they are doing a reasonable job although perhaps there are smarter ways to do the testing.
And my box has failed... as recently as this week (Which I started a dedicated thread)... up till then... yes... I have had the "blessed" boxes, that haven't had problems. And I am not alone...... do you think they all are making it up too? But of course, it is not possible that someone could have an HR20 that is working... because yours (and others), have had issues.
And ... on your last point... I choose my words very carefully when I post things.
I said they don't have it fixed yet, they are working to eliminating the root cause.
(Aka... they know what is causing it, now they are working to fix it....)
12 days and only one malfunction, one time. (failure to record after resolving a recording conflict) I have one of the "HR20's that is working", and has worked since initial install, including HDMI from the first turn on. I'm sure it has bugs I haven't found yet. I'm equally sure they are working on my priorities (as evidenced by the updates).
As long as they keep fixing, I'll be very happy. My priorities remain:
1. No missed recordings/missing playback
2. General Stability as it is put through its paces.
3. OTA
Overall, I'm very pleased with the progress, and the baseline performance that I'm getting from the HR20. (I do not have HD Locals, btw)
What if that is the case? What if every test they have setup to run, and their entire Beta team says they have had no problem.... ?
I do software test and release automation for a living, so I can say authoritatively that in that case, what you do is fire the person coordinating the testing.
Not covering 100% of corner cases is one thing.
Missing a critical fault in a key function is entirely unacceptable.
This is going to sound backwards to many of you, but I have seen it happen to many times not to mention it ...
Sometimes when a large group of people is responsible for beta testing, what happens is that each member of the test group doesn't feel much of a sense of responsibility for ensuring the quality of the software (they all know that they are just one of many people testing the software, and if there is a bug someone else will find it, right ?). Because of this, simply having more testers can sometimes have the opposite result from what you want. In my opinion, a small group of dedicated testers that is held personally responsible for QA is the ideal scenario. It's not how many people do the testing that matters, it's how many different things get tested that counts.
Anyway, from what I can tell the most common gripes from new versions are that it didn't fix some existing issue, not that it introduced a new issue. So, to me it seems like they are doing a reasonable job although perhaps there are smarter ways to do the testing.
If only that were true, Vike (the part about new software not causing problems). When I installed the box, two downloads ago, it recorded fine, not a hitch for a week or so. When the 9/27 download came down, all of a sudden, recording problems for me - and I can only speak for myself. I'm not a programmer or an uber-geek, but I know when something works and when it doesn't. That's all I can use to judge. But now that Earl has cleared it up (DTV apparently knows what the root cause is of the recording problem), it no doubt will be fixed pronto. Odd how that critical issue never showed up before. It just all of a sudden appeared after we all clamored for our HR-20s and DTV sent them our way. DTV hit a real bad stroke of luck in the testing process, I guess. Logic doesn't have a place here. They just got very unlucky. Beta testing, regular testing, or any kind of testing really had nothing to do with it, I guess. At least that's what DTV would have us (and I mean those of us with the recording reliability and other performance issues) believe.
DTV hit a real bad stroke of luck in the testing process, I guess. Logic doesn't have a place here. They just got very unlucky. Beta testing, regular testing, or any kind of testing really had nothing to do with it, I guess. At least that's what DTV would have us (and I mean those of us with the recording reliability and other performance issues) believe.
If you're relying on luck in your QA test plan, you should probably seek other employment options. Maybe fry cook at McDonalds.
I do software test and release automation for a living, so I can say authoritatively that in that case, what you do is fire the person coordinating the testing.
Not covering 100% of corner cases is one thing.
Missing a critical fault in a key function is entirely unacceptable.
Thanks Matto. If DTV held it's testing process and never found a single instance of the recording problem, the critical fault in a key funtion that some of us are experiencing, it would be time to call the Guinness Book people, no? Sounds incredible to me, but again, I only use software, I don't program it or test it.
12 days and only one malfunction, one time. (failure to record after resolving a recording conflict) I have one of the "HR20's that is working", and has worked since initial install, including HDMI from the first turn on. I'm sure it has bugs I haven't found yet. I'm equally sure they are working on my priorities (as evidenced by the updates).
As long as they keep fixing, I'll be very happy. My priorities remain:
1. No missed recordings/missing playback
2. General Stability as it is put through its paces.
3. OTA
Overall, I'm very pleased with the progress, and the baseline performance that I'm getting from the HR20. (I do not have HD Locals, btw)
Without local HD (MPEG-4), your HR-20 might be an apples to oranges comparison with the people have problems. I don't know. But I would guess there is something about the new dish/MPEG4 connected to the recording issues. I could be wrong. I hope when you do move to MPEG-4, you continue to have good luck.
Jeremy W
10-04-06, 02:16 PM
Without local HD (MPEG-4), your HR-20 might be an apples to oranges comparison with the people have problems. I don't know. But I would guess there is something about the new dish/MPEG4 connected to the recording issues. I could be wrong. I hope when you do move to MPEG-4, you continue to have good luck.
My HR20 has had MPEG4 HD locals since day one, and it's one of the "blessed" boxes that has worked pretty flawlessly.
bigviking
10-04-06, 02:17 PM
Thanks Matto. If DTV held it's testing process and never found a single instance of the recording problem, the critical fault in a key funtion that some of us are experiencing, it would be time to call the Guinness Book people, no? Sounds incredible to me, but again, I only use software, I don't program it or test it.
I agree that it sounds very unlikely that they did not ever see this issue in testing, with one possible exception ...
If what they are struggling with here is the very common (and often very difficult to resolve) problem of memory allocation and overwrite errors, then I can definately see that their testing may not have flushed this problem out.
From what I have been hearing about the sometimes flakey behavior, my bet is that this is exactly what they are dealing with. Errors of this nature are very tough to find, and re-produce. In fact, they don't make applications behave in any consistant manner what so ever. You could run the same exact code the same way a thousand times in a row without a problem, and the next time that you run it the problem could occur.
I don't know what their programming environment is here, but if it is C or C++ my money is that they are still dealing with a memory over-run error rather than some basic application logic error. It could be a simple as a single improperly sized malloc call, an un-terminated string, or a slew of other things. If this is the case, I can see how their testing hasn't flushed it out.
If what they are struggling with here is the very common (and often very difficult to resolve) problem of memory allocation and overwrite errors, then I can definately see that their testing may not have flushed this problem out.
Doing only functional and no exhaustive or regression tests would be unacceptable.
Also, judging by the number of people who see problems on this forum, which is certainly a small subset of total users, even basic functional test coverage should have caught this.
What I suspect is that this has been a known problem from the get-go, and engineering has not been able to resolve it (which is pretty pathetic). So for some reason, the decision is made to ship versions where the bug has not been resolved. Maybe the versions they're shipping address other bugs they consider more critical.
Without local HD (MPEG-4), your HR-20 might be an apples to oranges comparison with the people have problems. I don't know. But I would guess there is something about the new dish/MPEG4 connected to the recording issues. I could be wrong. I hope when you do move to MPEG-4, you continue to have good luck.
I posted this PRECISE theory several days ago, that is why I included the BTW comment...I have this uneasy suspicion that some of what we are seeing is MPEG-4 related (and I don't mean just watching an MPEG-4 channel, I mean if MPEG-4 is even presented to the box (channel surfing, etc)).
I believe Earl does have MPEG-4, and since I thought that was the case (and my idea was a completely unsupported theory anyway), I dropped any pursuit of my comment.
My contention from the beginning, reading the similarity (yet borderline chaotic nature at times) of so many issues that people are having was that there are "timing" issues in the code. These would show up predictably in some places, and randomly in others. I've seen it many times before with other software, especially during early portions of their development cycle.
bigviking
10-04-06, 02:38 PM
Doing only functional and no exhaustive or regression tests would be unacceptable.
Also, judging by the number of people who see problems on this forum, which is certainly a small subset of total users, even basic functional test coverage should have caught this.
What I suspect is that this has been a known problem from the get-go, and engineering has not been able to resolve it (which is pretty pathetic). So for some reason, the decision is made to ship versions where the bug has not been resolved. Maybe the versions they're shipping address other bugs they consider more critical.
I'm really not making excuses for the software bugs here, I'm just presenting what in my opinion is the most likey cause of the instability issues.
With a difficult to find overwrite error, it really does just become a problem of statistical probability. They could have tested all of the scenarios without problems, and still had a bug like this pop up among a much larger group of production users.
This is the very reason why I suggested a more automated and exhaustive testing process with very little user intervention in an earlier post today.
I'm really not making excuses for the software bugs here, I'm just presenting what in my opinion is the most likey cause of the instability issues.
With a difficult to find overwrite error, it really does just become a problem of statistical probability. They could have tested all of the scenarios without problems, and still had a bug like this pop up among a much larger group of production users.
This is the very reason why I suggested a more automated and exhaustive testing process with very little user intervention in an earlier post today.
catching these problems is a lot easier when your developers write correct code to begin with. not catching buffer overflows in a closed system is an amateur mistake.
WANDERER
10-04-06, 02:41 PM
Wow, yours must really suck. But what choices do we have? Cable, Dish? This whole thing is one major mess. Reminds me of the early days of personal computers, after DOS, when MS first released Windows 3.1. Crashes, blue screens, unreliability, etc. It didn't end until XP finally hit the consumer market in 2001. Seems like DTV is determined to follow MS.
How can they release a piece of hardware without testing the software capabilities? Three downloads in a month? Earl, are you listening? Sooner or later, you need to be honest with yourself. DTV has taken the wrong path in the DVR strategy, and all because they thought NDS could save them some money (instead of sticking with Tivo).
It's not just the people on these forums having problems, of course. Only most consumers don't hang out on the Net to air their issues. They call tech support, and get very few answers.
Sad.
Verizon FIOS
bigviking
10-04-06, 02:46 PM
catching these problems is a lot easier when your developers write correct code to begin with. not catching buffer overflows in a closed system is an amateur mistake.
I agree, actually it is a whole lot easier to catch if the code was correct to begin with because there wouldn't be anything to catch.
I agree, actually it is a whole lot easier to catch if the code was correct to begin with because there wouldn't be anything to catch.
it easier to not worry about testing every oppertunity for bounds checking when your developers do it as a part of their coding guidelines.
I do software test and release automation for a living, so I can say authoritatively that in that case, what you do is fire the person coordinating the testing.
Not covering 100% of corner cases is one thing.
Missing a critical fault in a key function is entirely unacceptable.
If that is the case, I think that all of the QA people that I have worked with would have been fired at some point or another. Critical faults can show up because of data related issues or sequence of events usually because of a remembered state. It is very hard to catch these doing manual or automated testing because your test cases have to cover every single combination of functions that could possibly happen.
But, I worked for a company that I think has the same approach to software development as D*. Their idea was to get a usable product to market. It didn't have to be perfect or bugless, but functional. Then they would work to refine it.
But, I worked for a company that I think has the same approach to software development as D*. Their idea was to get a usable product to market. It didn't have to be perfect or bugless, but functional. Then they would work to refine it.
You said it, not me. :)
bigviking
10-04-06, 02:59 PM
it easier to not worry about testing every oppertunity for bounds checking when your developers do it as a part of their coding guidelines.
I agree, but if this is written in C or C++ the potential issues go far beyond simple bounds checking. I don't suspect that the issue is this simple.
It could be that they have a bunch of java jocks that aren't use to the potential pitfalls of writing code in C or C++, as in java you can't cause a memory overwrite error simply by copying one string to another when the source string wasn't properly terminated.
WANDERER
10-04-06, 03:00 PM
If that is the case, I think that all of the QA people that I have worked with would have been fired at some point or another. Critical faults can show up because of data related issues or sequence of events usually because of a remembered state. It is very hard to catch these doing manual or automated testing because your test cases have to cover every single combination of functions that could possibly happen.
But, I worked for a company that I think has the same approach to software development as D*. Their idea was to get a usable product to market. It didn't have to be perfect or bugless, but functional. Then they would work to refine it.
Oh yes - strange combinations of events. Like hitting play or record! :)
Oh yes - strange combinations of events. Like hitting play or record! :)
Exactly! LOL! No, something a little more complicated than that. I did find a bug in our product(of course not my bug) that if you did something in function 1, it set a state variable that didn't reset. Then when you entered into function 2 (totally unrelated to function 1) nothing would work. I am just saying that it happens sometimes.
Also, I just got my HR20 this past Sunday and from reading the boards I new that it was a work in progress. I guess that is why it doesn't me bother me. But if I was a normal consumer that bought this and saw that some of the functions mentioned in the manual and in the specs weren't working yet(OTA Tuner for one), I might be a little upset.
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