eSATA - Has been enabled, but....

[Earl Bonovich]

First question: Why isn't this in the release notes?

eSATA right now is an unsupported and undocumented add-on right now.
Think of similar to Microsofts Power Tools.... DirecTV has enabled the eSATA port, but it is not an official feature of the box.

Here are the details:

eSATA is a complete replacement for the internal drive. By that I mean, the system will only use 1 drive at a time. So if you connect an eSATA drive, it will not use the internal drive
eSATA has only had minimal testing with eSATA devices out there. DirecTV did not test an extensive list of eSATA drives and enclosures to see what will work and what won't
When you connected an eSATA drive, you need to do so when the unit is powered off (UNPLUGGED). When starting up, the HR20 will detect the eSATA drive, format as necessary, and then use that drive only. Edited from original post
After initilization, the unit will be blank... you will have to re-enter your SL, favorites, ect.....
DirecTV will NOT increase their designed usage space for recordings. (these numbers are estimates)If if you add a 500gb drive; 400gb will be for user space, 100gb for DirecTV. If you had 21TB; 20,900gb for user space, 100gb for DirecTV Edited from original post
Recordings are TIED to the unit that it was connected to. So you can't record on an eSATA drive on one HR20 and take it to another
Future software updates may update the file structure on the hard drive, so it is possible that your internal drive (over a long period of time) will be out of sync with the software version on the flash chip. If this does occur (file structure change), and you need to go back to the internal drive, you will need to do a format of the original hard drive (there is a method to do it from the front panel)
Right now... eSATA is to be used at User's Risk. DirecTV CSR are not going to get training on the eSATA connections until it becomes and official features
Right now... there is no method to move recordings from the internal drive to an external drive... however, they are investigating to possible to do this with the initial format of the drive on startup (clone the drive instead of just a blank format), but no ETA on when/if it will be available.


Those are the details I have on the eSATA connection.

DirecTV has enabled this feature for the "techies" and those that really want the larger storage options. At a later time, they will re-visit the eSATA features, however this was a "quick hit". Most of the other ideas that we have thrown around here on the forums (using it as an archive drive, expanding the storage ... using more then one drive, using it on multiple systems, ect....) Will take a while to code... and they have other items (like OTA, Networking, Dual Buffers) higher in the priority list.

Note: The added drive needs to be larger then 300gb

[PoitNarf]

Didn't expect this so soon at all. Gonna be very interesting to see the experiences people are going to have playing around with it.

[911medic]

Cool! I vote "sticky" on this one, too!!!

[spidey]

the feature I REALLY desire is the ability to transfer a recorded program from one HR20 to be played on another in my house. This way I dont need to dual record but until the disappearing recordings is totally fixed it may be a way of life

[911medic]

Cool! I vote "sticky" on this one, too!!!:D

[PoitNarf]

the feature I REALLY desire is the ability to transfer a recorded program from one HR20 to be played on another in my house. This way I dont need to dual record but until the disappearing recordings is totally fixed it may be a way of life

I'm sure we'll see if it's possible to transport an external drive from one HR20 to another and try to play the same content stored on that hard drive on both HR20s before the end of the day :D

Who's gonna try it?

[Earl Bonovich]

I'm sure we'll see if it's possible to transport an external drive from one HR20 to another and try to play the same content stored on that hard drive on both HR20s before the end of the day :D

Who's gonna try it?

I can tell ya know... it isn't going to work.

[Earl Bonovich]

Okay... I was corrected by my DirecTV contacts (after they saw the thread).
I had a mis-interpretation from our phone converstation yesterday...

When adding an external drive, DirecTV will use some of the space... the same amount they use on the 300gb drive now 50gb~100gb.

So if you add a 1TB drive, 900gb is for user recordings, 100gb is for DirecTV pushes. 21TB enclosure; 20,900gb for user recordings, 100gb is for DirecTV...

ShapeGSX and PoitNarf... I deleted our threads discussing that, since the basis of the discussion was wrong, and I didn't want to confuse future readers.

[Ed Campbell]

Ditto on sticky.

Tell 'em to turn the ethernet port on! Tee hee. !Devil_lol

[bonscott87]

Very nice. If only I had an eSata drive to test. :)

One question though: I assume even though it would use the external drive as primary all your series links and other settings are retained?

Also I assume you'd want to power down to unplug it and then the HR20 goes back to using the internal drive as normal?

[Earl Bonovich]

Very nice. If only I had an eSata drive to test. :)

One question though: I assume even though it would use the external drive as primary all your series links and other settings are retained?

Also I assume you'd want to power down to unplug it and then the HR20 goes back to using the internal drive as normal?


I just edited the original post... well a few minutes ago.

1) Yes, you will have to have the unit unplugged when adding and removing the eSATA drives
2) No, it doesn't retain your series links and other settings, it is like starting with a blank system.

[PoitNarf]

Okay... I was corrected by my DirecTV contacts (after they saw the thread).
I had a mis-interpretation from our phone converstation yesterday...

When adding an external drive, DirecTV will use some of the space... the same amount they use on the 300gb drive now 50gb~100gb.

So if you add a 1TB drive, 900gb is for user recordings, 100gb is for DirecTV pushes. 21TB enclosure; 20,900gb for user recordings, 100gb is for DirecTV...

ShapeGSX and PoitNarf... I deleted our threads discussing that, since the basis of the discussion was wrong, and I didn't want to confuse future readers.

Gotcha, no biggie. At least spell my name right next time :D

[Earl Bonovich]

Gotcha, no biggie. At least spell my name right next time :D

Huh? I don't know what you are talking about there.... I spelt it right...

Right after you pointed it out to me, and I edited both mine and your osts.... :D

[Earl Bonovich]

A request.... if you connect an eSATA device... please post your results here...

List the make/model/size of your eSATA device.
Especially if you built it your self (purchased an enclosure, and add a drive).

If anyone out there has endless amounts of money... I am curious to see if this bad boy will work:
http://www.rad-direct.com/Product-SATABeast-SATA-RAID-Array.htm

[cuibap]

I don't think eSATA is needed right now. Instead, what I really really want to see is to be able to network HR20 boxes together and the ability to view recording on each other. This is going to be Tivo killer feature and will differentiate DirectTV from the rest of the crowd...

After this is done, then eSATA will be next, of course I want to see to ability to add eSATA drive as the 2nd storage space, not a replacement.

[bonscott87]

2) No, it doesn't retain your series links and other settings, it is like starting with a blank system.

Hmmmm. While it makes sense to retain series link capabilities and such across drives this method instead does provide some interesting options. Such as having a "baseball" drive for recording games or an "olympics" drive. Only problem is recordings like that are usually mixed in with regular stuff.

Anyway, those kinds of things are in the future, perhaps months from now, when they can get back to the eSata drive. I like the fact that they at least enabled it and allowing techies to play with it and come up with ideas for them to work on in their "spare" time. :D

[Rob55]

Since an eSATA drive will become the primary drive when connected and the internal drive will not be used, is there a way to power down the internal drive? It generates a fair amount of heat and it would be nice to shut it down when using an eSATA drive.

[Earl Bonovich]

Since an eSATA drive will become the primary drive when connected and the internal drive will not be used, is there a way to power down the internal drive? It generates a fair amount of heat and it would be nice to shut it down when using an eSATA drive.

I don't think there is a software way to do it......

[YankeeFan]

Does it format the drive EVERY time you connect it? I like bonscott87's idea of having a drive for different types of programs....

[YankeeFan]

One more question. Is the E-SATA controller limited to 1.5GB/s or can it handle a 3GB/s?

[Earl Bonovich]

Does it format the drive EVERY time you connect it? I like bonscott87's idea of having a drive for different types of programs....

From what I have been told... it will look at the disk first... see if it is already formated... and only format if necessary

[DVRaholic]

Thanks Earl, so happens I'm getting my second HR20-700 installed today.
So after it downloads the new software, and since the internal drive has no recordings, I'm going to hook up the eSata.

I have a 500GB MaxtorQuickview Hardrive just waiting to be hooked up.
I estimate since the 300GB gets 50 Hrs MPEG-4 then my 500GB should get me a bit over 80 hrs MPEG-4.

I already have a enclosure but I cant remember where I got it online
I was using it for over a year with my Explorer 8300HD with no problems, so it should work just fine with the HR20!!

I cant wait to give this a try....

I will keep you posted


One more thing Earl,
If I did have recordings on the internal Drive Could I watch them If the External was Disconnected ????

Thanks

[rkester]

Interesting. Anyone actually tried it yet? :) (curious why this was chosen to be implimented before the OTA activation)

[Earl Bonovich]

One more thing Earl,
If I did have recordings on the internal Drive Could I watch them If the External was Disconnected ????


I don't know... give it a try.
Quickly record one item before rebooting with the eSATA connected.

[carlsbad_bolt_fan]

A request.... if you connect an eSATA device... please post your results here...

List the make/model/size of your eSATA device.
Especially if you built it your self (purchased an enclosure, and add a drive).

If anyone out there has endless amounts of money... I am curious to see if this bad boy will work:
http://www.rad-direct.com/Product-SATABeast-SATA-RAID-Array.htm

Ah! Now I see where you got the "21Tb" number in your previous posts. :D

I've got 2 Seagate 400gb SATA drives I bought from the local Fry's. They had a Labor Day sale, each was $99. I might try this if I can find an enclosure that will hold both drives and do RAID 0.

[PoitNarf]

Interesting. Anyone actually tried it yet? :) (curious why this was chosen to be implimented before the OTA activation)

Probably cause this was easier to code. All they probably needed to do was enable it to detect an external drive and tell it to use the external SATA controller instead of the internal one.

[Earl Bonovich]

Ah! Now I see where you got the "21Tb" number in your previous posts. :D

I've got 2 Seagate 400gb SATA drives I bought from the local Fry's. They had a Labor Day sale, each was $99. I might try this if I can find an enclosure that will hold both drives and do RAID 0.

There are others out there:
http://www.meritline.com/3-5-sata-drive-external-enclosure-usb2--ms2ut.html

[PoitNarf]

Ah! Now I see where you got the "21Tb" number in your previous posts. :D

I've got 2 Seagate 400gb SATA drives I bought from the local Fry's. They had a Labor Day sale, each was $99. I might try this if I can find an enclosure that will hold both drives and do RAID 0.

Do they make enclosures for multiple drives that enable RAID over a single eSATA connection?

[sbcale]

I don't think eSATA is needed right now. Instead, what I really really want to see is to be able to network HR20 boxes together and the ability to view recording on each other. This is going to be Tivo killer feature and will differentiate DirectTV from the rest of the crowd...

After this is done, then eSATA will be next, of course I want to see to ability to add eSATA drive as the 2nd storage space, not a replacement.

Couldn't agree more! :)

[rkester]

So ooc, what sized drive would be needed to make it worth the trouble to use an eSata instead of the built in drive?

If you just used one the same size, you'd still be doubling your recording space right? just not at the same time.

[Bad Rex]

Thanks Earl, so happens I'm getting my second HR20-700 installed today.
So after it downloads the new software, and since the internal drive has no recordings, I'm going to hook up the eSata.

I have a 500GB MaxtorQuickview Hardrive just waiting to be hooked up.
I estimate since the 300GB gets 50 Hrs MPEG-4 then my 500GB should get me a bit over 80 hrs MPEG-4.



DVRaholic, if I had known you existed I would have picked another handle. If I stick around for a while, I'll probably change it to avoid confusion.

DVRaholic & DVRcoholic -- different people, same addiction :D

[carlsbad_bolt_fan]

There are others out there:
http://www.meritline.com/3-5-sata-drive-external-enclosure-usb2--ms2ut.html

Do they make enclosures for multiple drives that enable RAID over a single eSATA connection?


Found that one and even more here:

http://www.cooldrives.com/native-sata-external-drive-enclosure-for-all-sata-3-5inch-drives-200gb-300gb-400gb.html

[Jeremy W]

If you just used one the same size, you'd still be doubling your recording space right? just not at the same time.
You'd also have to keep two separate sets of Series Links synced up, which would be a pain in the ass. But, I am glad to see that they are starting to embrace upgrades. Once they code in some more functionality for the eSATA port, it will be a great feature and an incredible differentiator from other DVRs.

[DVRaholic]

Do they make enclosures for multiple drives that enable RAID over a single eSATA connection?
I need to know this also, this way with 2 500GB drives I would have 180 Hours MPEG-4 recording space WOW!!
.
:icon_da: :joy: :goodjob::dance: :icon_da: :blowout: :icon_da: :joy: :goodjob::dance: :icon_da: :blowout:


!pride

[carlsbad_bolt_fan]

I need to know this also, this way with 2 500GB drives I would have 180 Hours MPEG-4 recording space WOW!!
:icon_da: :joy: :goodjob: !pride :dance: :icon_da: :blowout:

Check here:

http://www.cooldrives.com/native-sata-external-drive-enclosure-for-all-sata-3-5inch-drives-200gb-300gb-400gb.html

Haven't ordered from them before, but there are options.

[rkester]

So like if you had a spouse who used the unit when you werent, they could have their own external drive and settings etc?

[matto]

first good news for hr20 owners in quite a while. can't wait to try a 750 gig disk this weekend :)

[PoitNarf]

So like if you had a spouse who used the unit when you werent, they could have their own external drive and settings etc?

I suppose, but you have to unplug the HR20 power cord if you want to switch back to the internal drive or even to use a different external drive. Sounds like a pain in the ass to me.

[Jeremy W]

So like if you had a spouse who used the unit when you werent, they could have their own external drive and settings etc?
That wouldn't work because you'd have to remember to switch the drives out to record each set of SLs, and you could not ever have an SL for you and your wife at the same time.

[rkester]

ever tried sharing a dvr with a GF who thinks her stuff is more important and deletes yours? ;) id give the GF the internal and she'd never be able to mess with me again. except that im single again.

another question... what about the drive itself and the formatting. any details on how? ex: if i had a drive i used on my computer. would the dvr format the whole thing or just free space or give me a choice? will a drive formatdd by the dvr be usable at all for pc/mac later? or will i have to reformat in hfs/ext/fat32/whatever to use on computer again?

[Jeremy W]

would the dvr format the whole thing or just free space or give me a choice? will a drive formatdd by the dvr be usable at all for pc/mac later? or will i have to reformat in hfs/ext/fat32/whatever to use on computer again?
The drive would be completely formatted by the HR20, any existing data would be lost. It would not be usable on a computer until you reformatted it, which would then make it useless in the HR20.

[Earl Bonovich]

another question... what about the drive itself and the formatting. any details on how? ex: if i had a drive i used on my computer. would the dvr format the whole thing or just free space or give me a choice? will a drive formatdd by the dvr be usable at all for pc/mac later? or will i have to reformat in hfs/ext/fat32/whatever to use on computer again?


As it was explained to me, it will format the entire drive.... wouldn't be viewable on a PC... and if you wanted to use the drive again on PC, you would have to reformat it.

[rkester]

So basically, to add a new drive currently =

1 or the other not both
drive is sacrified to be used only by the dvr

i assume eventually they will figure out how to share your SLs settings etc so it could work as an overflow drive or backup.

[Jeremy W]

So basically, to add a new drive currently =

1 or the other not both
drive is sacrified to be used only by the dvr

i assume eventually they will figure out how to share your SLs settings etc so it could work as an overflow drive or backup.
Yes, and realistically the fact that the whole drive needs to be dedicated to the HR20 will probably never change. But I can definitely see them setting it up so that at least all settings are stored on the internal drive. It would be great to have both drives be available for recordings too.

[thumperr]

I have a feeling that enabling the Extrenal SATA port is in response to this thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62741&page=5&highlight=hard+drive+upgrade

for anyone that works with the insides of computers a lot, this doesn;t sound hard, nor much more difficult than the UTV upgrade.

I'd bet because the internal eSATA is no longer in use, the boot up parameters were simply changed for the SATA controller to check port1 (assuming this is the external port) first then port0 (assuming this is the internal port). if this was the case, then use of an eSATA drive would be as reliable as use of the internal drive.

[matto]

I'd bet because the internal eSATA is no longer in use, the boot up parameters were simply changed for the SATA controller to check port1 (assuming this is the external port) first then port0 (assuming this is the internal port). if this was the case, then use of an eSATA drive would be as reliable as use of the internal drive.

err, except you're now adding all the failure modes for the external enclosure..

[Earl Bonovich]

Here is another two drive enclosure...

http://www.synetic.net/Synetic-Products/Stardoms/SR3610.htm

[DVRaholic]

DVRaholic, if I had known you existed I would have picked another handle. If I stick around for a while, I'll probably change it to avoid confusion.

DVRaholic & DVRcoholic -- different people, same addiction :D
I have the Same name on Mutiple Forums, and I have used it for a while
so maybe you should change it to DVRjunkie, or HR20coholic :D

[Guitar Hero]

So, it's unplug the power cord to the unit and attach an eSata external HDD. Plug back in the power cord and turn on the unit to format the external HDD?

What if we want to use the internal HDD again. It's unplug the power cord of the unit, detach the external HD and plug back in the power cord and then what? Will the internal drive be reformatted, or since it was already formatted and used, it'll be simply "read" and all is good?

Again, same thing with reattaching the external HDD. I would hate for the HR20 to constantly reformat the HDD when switching between the two if that's at all possible.

If we can never use the external HDD with movies stored on it with a different unit, then what's really the point in doing so? Couldn't DirecTV ask for the unit back since we're only leasing it from them, thus making all those stored movies useless?

I would like to use an external HDD storage device right away. I have only 35% space left on my HR20 for new recordings thanks to all the great HD movies I have stored on it.

[DVRaholic]

Yes, and realistically the fact that the whole drive needs to be dedicated to the HR20 will probably never change. But I can definitely see them setting it up so that at least all settings are stored on the internal drive. It would be great to have both drives be available for recordings too.

This shouldn't be a problem. My Cablevision SA 8300HDDVR can do this, all you need to do is unplug the power, plug in the eSATA, reboot and 5 minutes later you will have 2 drives connected together (internal and external) and you can record on both.
The Box decides which drive to record on, usually the one with more space available.
So this shouldnt be a major thing for Directv to activate this on Our HR20-700's

[Jeremy W]

So this shouldnt be a major thing for Directv to activate this on Our HR20-700's
It is a major thing, it's a ton of new code.

[Howie]

You can't just plug in the external drive and do a red button reset?

[harsh]

Interesting. Anyone actually tried it yet? :) (curious why this was chosen to be implimented before the OTA activation)Probably as a "throwing the dog a bone" gesture in the absence adding real functionality.

[harsh]

Probably cause this was easier to code. All they probably needed to do was enable it to detect an external drive and tell it to use the external SATA controller instead of the internal one.But is it really fair to release it with the caveat that it is largely untested and a warning that they aren't going to support it?

[Earl Bonovich]

But is it really fair to release it with the caveat that it is largely untested and a warning that they aren't going to support it?

Why not?

It is a feature that you have to actually go out buy an eSATA solution, then plug it in.... If you don't want to take the risk of using it, you don't have to go out and use it...

[bonscott87]

So, it's unplug the power cord to the unit and attach an eSata external HDD. Plug back in the power cord and turn on the unit to format the external HDD?

What if we want to use the internal HDD again. It's unplug the power cord of the unit, detach the external HD and plug back in the power cord and then what? Will the internal drive be reformatted, or since it was already formatted and used, it'll be simply "read" and all is good?

Again, same thing with reattaching the external HDD. I would hate for the HR20 to constantly reformat the HDD when switching between the two if that's at all possible.


You got it. And as Earl has posted and is in the first post, it will detect if it's already formatted and leave it alone. It will only format if it's not already.

And as posted, the port was simply activated. There are not "ready for prime time" features here. It's just enabled if you want to play with it for now. This will also help DirecTV get detailed info on the various drives and enclosures and see what works and what doesn't. Think of it as a true beta test which is the way I view it.

[cuibap]

This shouldn't be a problem. My Cablevision SA 8300HDDVR can do this, all you need to do is unplug the power, plug in the eSATA, reboot and 5 minutes later you will have 2 drives connected together (internal and external) and you can record on both.
The Box decides which drive to record on, usually the one with more space available.
So this shouldnt be a major thing for Directv to activate this on Our HR20-700's

I don't think it's good to let the box decide which drive to record on. I think it should fill up the internal drive first and then the external one. It also should have the option so we can move recording from one drive to the other and then unplug it and move the external to another HR20 box and watch it.

[bonscott87]

Why not?

It is a feature that you have to actually go out buy an eSATA solution, then plug it in.... If you don't want to take the risk of using it, you don't have to go out and use it...

Sigh....I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to complain about it. Unreal and sad :nono2:

They simply activated it, let the techies play with it for a few months, then work on some solid features for it later on after OTA and so forth are rolled out.

[matto]

I don't think it's good to let the box decide which drive to record on. I think it should fill up the internal drive first and then the external one. It also should have the option so we can move recording from one drive to the other and then unplug it and move the external to another HR20 box and watch it.

And now you all see why fully implementing this functionality isn't trivial.

[jdmac29]

I have older computer, no sata stuff on it, but I have a relatively new 200 GB WD internal ide hard drive used for video recording only. Looking at www.cooldrives.com some of the enclosures will take an ide drive and use an sata connection. Does anyone think this will work with the hr20-700?

[PoitNarf]

I have older computer, no sata stuff on it, but I have a relatively new 200 GB WD internal ide hard drive used for video recording only. Looking at www.cooldrives.com some of the enclosures will take an ide drive and use an sata connection. Does anyone think this will work with the hr20-700?

There are IDE to SATA adaptors available for single drives. Not a 100% guarantee that the enclosures you're talking about will work, but I'm pretty sure it would.

[racrex]

If I have a spare 500gb eSATA drive how much storage space will I get in the terms of HD hours? Sorry I am a newbie. Thanks

[cabanaboy1977]

What if we want to use the internal HDD again. It's unplug the power cord of the unit, detach the external HD and plug back in the power cord and then what? Will the internal drive be reformatted, or since it was already formatted and used, it'll be simply "read" and all is good?

Again, same thing with reattaching the external HDD. I would hate for the HR20 to constantly reformat the HDD when switching between the two if that's at all possible.


I was thinking the same thing. I hope that it doesn't reformat and remembers the settings.

[rkester]

500 would = about 50hours mpeg2, 80 mpg4, 350 maybe SD i think. just guessing based on the internal drive.

[DVRaholic]

It is a major thing, it's a ton of new code.
What I meant is if the Crappy SA 8300 box can have it activated then it should be no problem for Directv to do it also

[Jeremy W]

What I meant is if the Crappy SA 8300 box can have it activated then it should be no problem for Directv to do it also
Right, and I'm sure DirecTV will have it eventually.

[hasan]

Are these the same kind of drive or is there something unique about eSATA?

I've seen SATA drives mentioned for a long time, in fact, one of my newer machines has one, but I've not seen eSATA before. Is this something special or just different nomenclature for the same device?

[matto]

Are these the same kind of drive or is there something unique about eSATA?

the 'e' is for 'external'.

[hasan]

the 'e' is for 'external'.

Duh! thanks...just curious at this point, waiting for OTA!

[pgfitzgerald]

DirecTV will NOT increase their designed usage space for recordings. (these numbers are estimates)If if you add a 500gb drive; 400gb will be for user space, 100gb for DirecTV. If you had 21TB; 20,900gb for user space, 100gb for DirecTV

Your example shows DirecTV gets 100GB of a 500GB drive (or a 21TB drive). Are you saying that DirecTV has reserved 100GB of the 300GB internal drive for their own use?

Paul

[talbain]

three pages and not a single person has tried this yet? if i actually had a sata drive i'd be all over this...

[directvfreak]

Your example shows DirecTV gets 100GB of a 500GB drive (or a 21TB drive). Are you saying that DirecTV has reserved 100GB of the 300GB internal drive for their own use?

Paul

Directv gets 50gb of the 300. You get 250 for recording.

[Earl Bonovich]

I've been seen two different numbers, so I took the higher of the two.
50gb and 100gb

[Earl Bonovich]

I have older computer, no sata stuff on it, but I have a relatively new 200 GB WD internal ide hard drive used for video recording only. Looking at www.cooldrives.com some of the enclosures will take an ide drive and use an sata connection. Does anyone think this will work with the hr20-700?


I don't know about the enclosure... but I should have included this in the original post.

The hard drive HAS to be larger then 300gb.

[pgfitzgerald]

500 would = about 50hours mpeg2, 80 mpg4, 350 maybe SD i think. just guessing based on the internal drive.

I came up with nearly the same results.

Directv gets 50gb of the 300. You get 250 for recording.

According to DirecTV, the HR20 is capable of recording up to 200 hours of SD, up to 30 hours of MPEG2 HD, and up to 50 hours of MPEG4 HD. Based on that, here's what I've come up with.

Internal 300GB drive

SD: 200 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 30 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 50 Hours


External 500GB drive

SD: 333 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 50 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 83 Hours


External 750GB drive

SD: 500 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 75 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 125 Hours


External 1TB drive

SD: 667 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 100 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 167 Hours



This is, of course, assuming DirecTV based their estimates on the capacity of the entire hard drive instead of just what is available to us.

I'd really like an eSATA drive. :D

Paul

[dharrismco]

What I meant is if the Crappy SA 8300 box can have it activated then it should be no problem for Directv to do it also

I just have to pipe in and comment that I was on Brighthouse cable prior to switching back to D*, and I had an 8300 and a lot of people are complaining because Brighthouse hasn't fully actived the Sata port on the 8300 either (not at all in Central FL). I hear that there are some people who have an update that does "enable" it, but they can't use trickplay properly.. I will concede that there are 2 providers for the 8300 software.. One does support SATA properly, but I can't remember their name, but Passport doesnt which is what Brighthouse uses.

[matto]

I'm predicting the WAF of an external disk enclosure hanging off the HR20 to be around 0 :)

[Earl Bonovich]

External 21TB drive/array

SD: 14,007 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 2100 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 3507 Hours


So using dual duners 24/7 it would take:
292 days of SD recording to fill it up
44 days of HD-MPEG2
73 days of HD-MPEG4

[Earl Bonovich]

I'm predicting the WAF of an external disk enclosure hanging off the HR20 to be around 0 :)

That is why some enterprising smart company, needs to make an enclosure that is the same width as the HR20 with a height just necessary to hold the drives and keep a good air flow around it.

[matto]

That is why some enterprising smart company, needs to make an enclosure that is the same width as the HR20 with a height just necessary to hold the drives and keep a good air flow around it.

And end up supporting the users on this forum!? No thanks!!! :D

[Earl Bonovich]

And end up supporting the users on this forum!? No thanks!!! :D

Why... they could just release it as an unsupported/undocumented enclosure... :) I mean it is easy right? :D

[racrex]

Ok. I want to make sure that I undstand this correctly before the wife comes at me with a baseball bat. Currently, I have several Law & Orders and some other important stuff recoreded that has not been viewed that resides on the internal drive. Now, if i hookup the eSATA drive I will not be able to transfer so in order to view those shows I need to either disconnect the drive or wait until all shows are watched. Is that correct?

[matto]

Why... they could just release it as an unsupported/undocumented enclosure... :) I mean it is easy right? :D

They'd have to explain over and over why their customers don't need to buy gold-plated oxygen-free ESATA cables ;-)

[pgfitzgerald]

I'm predicting the WAF of an external disk enclosure hanging off the HR20 to be around 0 :)

What about MAF (my acceptance factor)? :) There are very few eSATA enclosures I find acceptable with regard to their looks.

I could care less about flashy neon lights. I don't really want one that looks like the knobby tires of Bigfoot. I don't need racing stripes, as it won't be going anywhere. :grin:

I did manage to find one enclosure I thought was pretty decent though.

That is why some enterprising smart company, needs to make an enclosure that is the same width as the HR20 with a height just necessary to hold the drives and keep a good air flow around it.

I'd pay for that. :)

Paul

[cabanaboy1977]

What if we want to use the internal HDD again. It's unplug the power cord of the unit, detach the external HD and plug back in the power cord and then what? Will the internal drive be reformatted, or since it was already formatted and used, it'll be simply "read" and all is good?

Again, same thing with reattaching the external HDD. I would hate for the HR20 to constantly reformat the HDD when switching between the two if that's at all possible.


Earl, did I miss the answer to this or do we not know? If we don't I hope that someone tests this.

[jedster]

This is very cool and I hope that DirecTV supports more stuff like this to return to the top spot in the DVR world.

I do have a few ?s:

- Can anybody recommend the best value for an eSATA enclosure? I have both IDE and SATA drives I could use.

- Does anybody know of an eSATA enclosure that will support an array of disks (potentially RAID) that will appear to the HR20-700 as a single volume?

Thanks.

p.s.: I did find this unit (http://www.cooldrives.com/sata-to-firewire-enclosure-raid.html) but it doesn't look like it has eSATA. :(

[DVRaholic]

eSATA 500GB Drive is up and Running :D

I Unpluged power to HR20, powered up My External enclosure with SATA drive, plugged into back of HR20.

I then plugged in HR20 and let it power up... everything the same, never asked for me to reformat drive (maybe because it is a clean drive)

I cant tell difference, didnt know if external drive was working with the exception that my Favorite list reset (Earl mentioned this would happen)

So to test if the external drive was working with the HR20 I pulled the SATA cord out of the back of the HR20, and 30 seconds later the box froze up and went to black screen. I guess his tells me that the eSATA drive was indeed working.

I guess the only way to tell is to fill the hard drive up... But that wont happen for a while. I dont have time to play with filling it up. I will let that Naturally happen :)

Earl, is there any way to look in the menus to see if it is recording to the External drive and not the Internal ???

[YankeeFan]

This is very cool and I hope that DirecTV supports more stuff like this to return to the top spot in the DVR world.

I do have a few ?s:

- Can anybody recommend the best value for an eSATA enclosure? I have both IDE and SATA drives I could use.

- Does anybody know of an eSATA enclosure that will support an array of disks (potentially RAID) that will appear to the HR20-700 as a single volume?

Thanks.

p.s.: I did find this unit (http://www.cooldrives.com/sata-to-firewire-enclosure-raid.html) but it doesn't look like it has eSATA. :(

This is the one I'm looking at...it has built in hardware RAID 0 and RAID 1

http://www.nitroav.com/store/files/images/t_326.gif

http://www.nitroav.com/product/442/

[matto]

Earl, is there any way to look in the menus to see if it is recording to the External drive and not the Internal ???

record and see if the disk access light flashes?

[DVRaholic]

record and see if the disk access light flashes?
I have a Cheapo holder, no lights... But it does have a power button... turned it off, Picture Froze YEAH BABY!


:icon_band

[DVRaholic]

This is the one I'm looking at...it has built in hardware RAID 0 and RAID 1

http://www.nitroav.com/store/files/images/t_326.gif

http://www.nitroav.com/product/442/

Not a bad price... I think I might go for this one also, THANKS

[rkester]

How about this as an idea for using a external to compliment the internal.

What if you setup the internal for say just Mon-Thurs programs. THen swapped it with the eSata and it only did Fri-Sun programs. It would be connected during when its programming would record and not be there when it wasnt needed.

If you need to watch something off it during hte week to catchup, youd haev to boot off it.

I would have gotten one just to store FireFly and Serenity in HD alone. lol.

[jedster]

This is the one I'm looking at...it has built in hardware RAID 0 and RAID 1



http://www.nitroav.com/product/442/

RAID-0 means i can put to 500GB SATA drives in this box and the HR20-700 will see it as a single 1TB drive, correct?

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl, is there any way to look in the menus to see if it is recording to the External drive and not the Internal ???

As far as I know.... no

[Earl Bonovich]

RAID-0 means i can put to 500GB SATA drives in this box and the HR20-700 will see it as a single 1TB drive, correct?

Yes... that is exactly what it means.

[YankeeFan]

RAID-0 means i can put to 500GB SATA drives in this box and the HR20-700 will see it as a single 1TB drive, correct?

Yes, but it also means that if one of the drives goes bad...you lose ALL your data on both drives.

[jedster]

Yes, but it also means that if one of the drives goes bad...you lose ALL your data on both drives.

Does the HR20-700 care what kind of RAID it is? Like for example if I found a RAID5 enclosure would it still see both volumes as 1 large volume (which is of course smaller than 2x due to the RAID5)?

[Earl Bonovich]

Does the HR20-700 care what kind of RAID it is? Like for example if I found a RAID5 enclosure would it still see both volumes as 1 large volume (which is of course smaller than 2x due to the RAID5)?

The enclosure is the one that is going to do all the RAIDing... and should expose it self as a single drive via the eSATA connection.

So... if what ever enclosure you select, presents the data stream as a single drive... the HR20 should work with it. RAID0, RAID1, RAID5, RAID10 shouldn't matter.

RAID-5 however, may be problimatic because slower read/write speeds

[harsh]

Now, if i hookup the eSATA drive I will not be able to transfer so in order to view those shows I need to either disconnect the drive or wait until all shows are watched. Is that correct?Please re-read the first and last detail bullet items of the original post. Your questions are answered quite definitively there.

[P Smith]

This is the one I'm looking at...it has built in hardware RAID 0 and RAID 1

http://www.nitroav.com/store/files/images/t_326.gif

http://www.nitroav.com/product/442/
Bad thing it's have 500 GB per disk limit.

[DVRaholic]

Heres a 1TB System, it includes the Hard Drives

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail~dpno~707413.asp


Or this one... On backorder though...

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail~dpno~7117840.asp

[hadji]

Seems like there is a usb 2.0 to eSata adapter from doing a little research. could this or something similar be used to turn my 500gb usb 2.0/firewire enabled external drive in to an eSata useable drive? Sorry, but this topic is just a wee bit advanced for me right now so I am fishing for bits and pieces.

[PoitNarf]

Heres a 1TB System, it includes the Hard Drives

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail~dpno~707413.asp

Pricey...

[jedster]

The enclosure is the one that is going to do all the RAIDing... and should expose it self as a single drive via the eSATA connection.

So... if what ever enclosure you select, presents the data stream as a single drive... the HR20 should work with it. RAID0, RAID1, RAID5, RAID10 shouldn't matter.

RAID-5 however, may be problimatic because slower read/write speeds

I doubt that I'll invest in redundancy, but which fault tolerant RAID solution is the fastest?

Another probably off-topic RAID question: do RAID devices usually care which file system you use (i.e., FAT32, NTFS, etc.) or do they let the PC or DVR choose?

[Twosted]

Anyone tried this with success yet?

[Jeremy W]

Anyone tried this with success yet?
Yes, someone has posted that they got it working. In this thread, as a matter of fact...

[P Smith]

I doubt that I'll invest in redundancy, but which fault tolerant RAID solution is the fastest?

Another probably off-topic RAID question: do RAID devices usually care which file system you use (i.e., FAT32, NTFS, etc.) or do they let the PC or DVR choose?
no, they are working in term of LBA, ie from sector 0 to sector MAX.

[PoitNarf]

Another probably off-topic RAID question: do RAID devices usually care which file system you use (i.e., FAT32, NTFS, etc.) or do they let the PC or DVR choose?

RAID doesn't care about file systems. All it cares about are which 0s and 1s it needs to store on which drives.

[Earl Bonovich]

Seems like there is a usb 2.0 to eSata adapter from doing a little research. could this or something similar be used to turn my 500gb usb 2.0/firewire enabled external drive in to an eSata useable drive? Sorry, but this topic is just a wee bit advanced for me right now so I am fishing for bits and pieces.

All depends on that adapter.... if it doesn't need any special drivers, it should work fine... Do you have a link for the adapter?

[jedster]

Yes, someone has posted that they got it working. In this thread, as a matter of fact...

Where can I find this thread? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[PoitNarf]

Where can I find this thread? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Post #87 in this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=677029#post677029

[hadji]

All depends on that adapter.... if it doesn't need any special drivers, it should work fine... Do you have a link for the adapter?


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812174001&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=12-174-001

[Earl Bonovich]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812174001&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=12-174-001

That is the same one I found in a search, but it is backwards for this application.

That adapter is to take an eSATA device and connect it to a USB Port.
We need an adapter that takes a USB Device and connects it to a eSATA port.

Or is it just too late and I am backwards?

[hadji]

That is the same one I found in a search, but it is backwards for this application.

That adapter is to take an eSATA device and connect it to a USB Port.
We need an adapter that takes a USB Device and connects it to a eSATA port.

Or is it just too late and I am backwards?

It looked that way to me as well, but wouldn't a male to male esata cable and a usb coupler make this compatible?

[thumperr]

The enclosure is the one that is going to do all the RAIDing... and should expose it self as a single drive via the eSATA connection.

So... if what ever enclosure you select, presents the data stream as a single drive... the HR20 should work with it. RAID0, RAID1, RAID5, RAID10 shouldn't matter.

RAID-5 however, may be problimatic because slower read/write speeds


You would have no performance impact from RAID5 for reading data, unless a drive had failed, and then the data would have to be recomposed from parity. Read performance will be similar to RAID0.

Write performance could be impacted, but a decent controller would minimize this. The HR20 would not be calculating parity, the controller is. so as long as the controller is meant for SATA drives then it sould be able to handle the data rate. if you used a controller for ATA then the throughput would probably be insufficient for the SATA drives.

[wmccain]

I'm predicting the WAF of an external disk enclosure hanging off the HR20 to be around 0 :)
That is why some enterprising smart company, needs to make an enclosure that is the same width as the HR20 with a height just necessary to hold the drives and keep a good air flow around it.Can you spell "Middle Atlantic custom rackshelf"?

Seriously, I rackmount everything, including odd-shaped items such as routers and other computer gear. Thank god for Middle Atlantic, they will make custom faceplates for practically anything. If it's not already in their database, you send them the dimensions of the cutout (if rectangular) or a sample of the actual item (if it is trapezoidal, has rounded corners, etc.).

The shelves are ventilated. The faceplates come in two anodized finishes, brushed-black or silver. 100% guaranteed WAF.

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California

[jedster]

Post #87 in this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=677029#post677029

i knew that. sarcasm. :lol:

[matto]

100% guaranteed WAF.

You've got a great wife. Mine doesn't dig 19" racks :)

[Earl Bonovich]

It looked that way to me as well, but wouldn't a male to male esata cable and a usb coupler make this compatible?

I don't know if it would.. guess it depends on what is going on inside that adapter.

[wmccain]

You've got a great wife. Mine doesn't dig 19" racks :)There are ways to make them attractive, and that's partly what the Middle Atlantic custom shelves are all about. They look finished, not "industrial" like (say) a typical computer server rack.

Also, they need to be well-integrated with cabinets and other furniture. To be sure, many of my racks (e.g. the ones in the living room) have oak "cabinet doors" that hide them from view. I did that because my late wife, rest her soul, absolutely forbid me to have (visible) electronics in the living room.

But everyone, including the incumbent "lady of the house", thinks the racks look "great" when I open the cabinet doors and show them off ...

Bill

[talbain]

Where can I find this thread? :confused: :confused: :confused:

lol

[hadji]

I don't know if it would.. guess it depends on what is going on inside that adapter.

Here is a link to their website for more info.


http://www.addonics.com/products/io/aau2esa.asp

I just emailed them and asked them if this would be a viable option. I will post when I find out something.

[Andrew_J_M]

I applaud DirectV for enabling the eSATA port so quickly, I am always sceptical when I see something labeled "for future use", because tomorrow is another day.

Personally I would prefer to have the LAN port enabled with the ability to network units but that probably wouldn't be quite the as easy.

In the meantime I hope that someone at D* is monitoring this thread and looking for suggestions as to how the eSATA could be used, perhaps even a seperate thread could be set up for it.

My list;

Ability to use internal and external drives in tandem - keeping the recording schedule on the internal drive.
I would like to be able to nominate which drive a recording should use and move recordings from drive to drive.
Hot sync, so the unit doesn't have to download the EPG information every time I plug in an eSATA drive.
Swap eSATA between units activated to the same account.
A means to archive recordings, maybe to PC files, which could then only be played back on a unit active on the same account.

There are obviously legal issues involved, I wouldn't want D* to activate some function that causes them to get involved in a big suit which would then delay further development.

I would still suggest that networking HR20s is a higher priority than any of the above, but that's just me.

Bring on OTA!

[hdtvfan0001]

I applaud DirectV for enabling the eSATA port so quickly, I am always sceptical when I see something labeled "for future use", because tomorrow is another day.

Personally I would prefer to have the LAN port enabled with the ability to network units but that probably wouldn't be quite the as easy.

In the meantime I hope that someone at D* is monitoring this thread and looking for suggestions as to how the eSATA could be used, perhaps even a seperate thread could be set up for it.

My list;

Ability to use internal and external drives in tandem - keeping the recording schedule on the internal drive.
I would like to be able to nominate which drive a recording should use and move recordings from drive to drive.
Hot sync, so the unit doesn't have to download the EPG information every time I plug in an eSATA drive.
Swap eSATA between units activated to the same account.
A means to archive recordings, maybe to PC files, which could then only be played back on a unit active on the same account.

There are obviously legal issues involved, I wouldn't want D* to activate some function that causes them to get involved in a big suit which would then delay further development.

I would still suggest that networking HR20s is a higher priority than any of the above, but that's just me.

Bring on OTA!
Totally agree with all your points. :)

[mstecker]

A means to archive recordings, maybe to PC files, which could then only be played back on a unit active on the same account.

There are obviously legal issues involved, I wouldn't want D* to activate some function that causes them to get involved in a big suit which would then delay further development.

I'd love to see this functionality also, especially hooking up to my Mac and iTunes! If someone wrote some type of application that could take the content on the HR20 and encode it for my iPod or even later use with Apple's upcoming iTV... that would be sooo cool!

.... but then again, that means Apple would be losing TV show sales in the iTunes Store, hmmm...

[carl6]

Has anyone confirmed that the drive is not re-formatted if it has already been formatted?

For example, record something on the internal drive. Remove power and install an external drive. Bring the unit up and record something on the external drive. Remove power and remove the external drive. Bring the unit back up on the internal drive. Recording(s) still there and useable. Remove power and plug the external drive back in. Bring the unit up and verify recording(s) still there and useable.

If so, then it would also seem that you could have multiple external drives (only using one at a time of course) with different sets of recordings. I know that your other settings, SL's, etc., are not preserved, at least at this time.

Carl

[Jeremy W]

Has anyone confirmed that the drive is not re-formatted if it has already been formatted?
The unit appears to treat external drives exactly the same as the internal drive. And the internal drive is not formatted every time you boot up. So...

[Ed Campbell]

Just a ditto for eSATA for archiving, storage. That's how I have my Mac set-up -- store all iTunes and iPhoto files in the external firewire drive [backups, as well, of course]. Since I have another external storing backups from another Mac, I setup Backup to backup music, video, photos to whichever external they're not in. Redundancy rules.

OTA can't get here soon enough!

Looking forward to hooking up wireless access point to ethernet port > streaming IPTV files, e.g. Cranky Geeks, MacBreak, command-N and dl.tv and watching them in the LR instead of my study. WAF doesn't allow for more holes in the walls and cables strung under the soffit from the study to the LR.

[PoitNarf]

I'm just looking for potential bugs by saying this, but....

If you perform the full HR20 reset/HD format, will it format the internal drive or will it know that the external drive is connected and format that instead?

[Earl Bonovich]

I'm just looking for potential bugs by saying this, but....

If you perform the full HR20 reset/HD format, will it format the internal drive or will it know that the external drive is connected and format that instead?

My guess is if the eSATA is connected it would format that drive.

[cabanaboy1977]

eSATA 500GB Drive is up and Running :D

I Unpluged power to HR20, powered up My External enclosure with SATA drive, plugged into back of HR20.

I then plugged in HR20 and let it power up... everything the same, never asked for me to reformat drive (maybe because it is a clean drive)

I cant tell difference, didnt know if external drive was working with the exception that my Favorite list reset (Earl mentioned this would happen)

So to test if the external drive was working with the HR20 I pulled the SATA cord out of the back of the HR20, and 30 seconds later the box froze up and went to black screen. I guess his tells me that the eSATA drive was indeed working.

I guess the only way to tell is to fill the hard drive up... But that wont happen for a while. I dont have time to play with filling it up. I will let that Naturally happen :)

Earl, is there any way to look in the menus to see if it is recording to the External drive and not the Internal ???

So what happen's if you turn it back off and take the external out? Does it go back to the orignal state using the internal drive (ie. are the shows recorded on the internal still there and the SL's) or does it wipe the internal drive.

BTW when you said the favorites where gone, did you mean the Series Links?

[DVRaholic]

So what happen's if you turn it back off and take the external out? Does it go back to the orignal state using the internal drive (ie. are the shows recorded on the internal still there and the SL's) or does it wipe the internal drive.

BTW when you said the favorites where gone, did you mean the Series Links?
It was a New HR20, so I had no SL set up.
Because of my WF :( I'm not gong to mess around pulling drive/rebooting. Everytime this is done I lose the Guide data and it needs a full 24 hrs to repopulate. Major pain, PLUS it seems to be working fine now. 2 recordings from last nite, and I dont want to mess up the DVR with all the rebooting and plug/unplugging sata drive. My luck something will get broken.

One thing I did notice Once you set up your favorites the hard drive will keep the information, I noticed this when I first pulled the external drive, the original drive kept the original information. I would assume it would do the same for any SL set up on each drive.

I ordered this baby today..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320033708653&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
FREE Shipping and NO TAX

I should have it by tuesday, and I will be setting it up with 1-500GB quickview drive & 1-250GB Western Digital drive. This should give me 125 Hrs Mpeg-4 recording And Or 75 Hrs Mpeg-2

:)

[P Smith]

1) RAID controller will take minimal disk size for stripe/mirror, ie 500+250 => 500 GB
2) a spec of the gadget limiting max size of each disk to 500 GB, ie 1 TB total.

[cabanaboy1977]

It was a New HR20, so I had no SL set up.
Because of my WF :( I'm not gong to mess around pulling drive/rebooting. Everytime this is done I lose the Guide data and it needs a full 24 hrs to repopulate. Major pain, PLUS it seems to be working fine now. 2 recordings from last nite, and I dont want to mess up the DVR with all the rebooting and plug/unplugging sata drive. My luck something will get broken.

One thing I did notice Once you set up your favorites the hard drive will keep the information, I noticed this when I first pulled the external drive, the original drive kept the original information. I would assume it would do the same for any SL set up on each drive.

I ordered this baby today..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320033708653&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
FREE Shipping and NO TAX

I should have it by tuesday, and I will be setting it up with 1-500GB quickview drive & 1-250GB Western Digital drive. This should give me 125 Hrs Mpeg-4 recording And Or 75 Hrs Mpeg-2

:)

If you can when you add external will you try it and see what happens. Sounds like you'll have more than enought HD space now :D

[DVRaholic]

1) RAID controller will get minimal disk size for stripe/mirror, ie 500+250 => 500 GB
2) a spec of the gadget limiting max size of each disk to 500 GB, ie 1 TB total.

So what you are trying to say is 500GB and 250GB wont give me 750 total ??

I need Identical sized drives to make RAID work properly ??

For example If I had two 320GB drives I would get 640GB right ???

[P Smith]

Right, but again : 500+250 will give only 500 GB.
You don't need identical HDD, just similar size, total = smallest size x 2.

[DVRaholic]

Right, but again : 500+250 will give only 500 GB.
You don't need identical HDD, just similar size, total = smallest size x 2.
Got iT! Thanks...

So if I dont want to waste my 500GB drive I need another 500Gb drive (any brand) to benifit from RAID, then I will have 1TB

Which is 164 Hrs MPEG-4, and 100 Hrs Mpeg-2
WOW

[JBernardK]

earl,

Is this the long term solution that DirecTV will use for eSATA, or is it possible they will implement something different later? By different I mean, for example, using both the internal and external together to add more space. Or will they sell a unit with no internal HD? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to disable the internal drive, but I'm sure they did it this way because it was a quick and easy solution.

[matto]

Got iT! Thanks...

So if I dont want to waste my 500GB drive I need another 500Gb drive (any brand) to benifit from RAID, then I will have 1TB

Which is 164 Hrs MPEG-4, and 100 Hrs Mpeg-2
WOW

Do yourself a favor and use matched pairs of drives.
Other combos will work, but may give you some nasty surprises later.

Also keep in mind that if you stripe across two disks, you are halving your mean time to failure- meaning you're twice likely to experience a disk failure, and a failure of either means you lose all the data on your array.

[Earl Bonovich]

earl,

Is this the long term solution that DirecTV will use for eSATA, or is it possible they will implement something different later? By different I mean, for example, using both the internal and external together to add more space. Or will they sell a unit with no internal HD? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to disable the internal drive, but I'm sure they did it this way because it was a quick and easy solution.


They will never sell a unit without a hard drive inside of it.

This is the solution for the immediate future. Long Long term... They do have some other plans, but for the practicle period of time... this is the eSATA feature.

[jedster]

They will never sell a unit without a hard drive inside of it.

This is the solution for the immediate future. Long Long term... They do have some other plans, but for the practicle period of time... this is the eSATA feature.

Put on your crystal ball hat: do you think they will deliver a PC card capable of tuning D* under Windows Vista or multi-room viewing first?

I say this assuming that eSATA enhancements are likely to come after both. And both of those are germane to the issue of how much storage you have, each for different reasons.

While I'm at it, do you know what filesystem D* uses? I.E., could a PC read a D* eSATA drive?

[Earl Bonovich]

Put on your crystal ball hat: do you think they will deliver a PC card capable of tuning D* under Windows Vista or multi-room viewing first?

I say this assuming that eSATA enhancements are likely to come after both. And both of those are germane to the issue of how much storage you have, each for different reasons.

While I'm at it, do you know what filesystem D* uses? I.E., could a PC read a D* eSATA drive?


With my crystal ball.... PC Card for Windows Vista, if I was a betting guy.
MRV is probably not going to be available until the HMC... but that is in MY crystal ball... not based on information I have been given.

And yes... eSATA enhancements are pretty far down the list.
A PC could "see" the drive, but the data is encrypted so you would get very far with it.

[harsh]

Right, but again : 500+250 will give only 500 GB.
You don't need identical HDD, just similar size, total = smallest size x 2.Some of the new RAID controllers now support JBOD (Just a Big Ol' Drive).

[rabi]

With my crystal ball.... PC Card for Windows Vista, if I was a betting guy.
MRV is probably not going to be available until the HMC... but that is in MY crystal ball... not based on information I have been given.

And yes... eSATA enhancements are pretty far down the list.
A PC could "see" the drive, but the data is encrypted so you would get very far with it.

Does the HMC still EXIST?????

[jedster]

With my crystal ball.... PC Card for Windows Vista, if I was a betting guy.
MRV is probably not going to be available until the HMC... but that is in MY crystal ball... not based on information I have been given.

And yes... eSATA enhancements are pretty far down the list.
A PC could "see" the drive, but the data is encrypted so you would get very far with it.

I hope you are right. I met an HTPC enthusiast from Microsoft earlier this year who said he was sure the D* card would come before CableCard. He followed up with me on e-mail with the same info, but it appears that he may not be right. However, hopefully D* will be less restrictive than CableCard insofaras allowing you to add the D* card after-market. Have you heard anything about this?

p.s.: My bet on the over-under for a D* vista card would be next May. What do you think?

[matto]

Some of the new RAID controllers now support JBOD (Just a Big Ol' Drive).

JBOD = Just a Box Of Disks; a mode where each disk device is presented as its own target.. that's a bit different than raid 0 concat, where drive space is simply concatenated together.

[P Smith]

Do yourself a favor and use matched pairs of drives.
Other combos will work, but may give you some nasty surprises later.

Also keep in mind that if you stripe across two disks, you are halving your mean time to failure- meaning you're twice likely to experience a disk failure, and a failure of either means you lose all the data on your array.
Yeah, a pair of new identical drives would be top choice;
but regading your statistical math ... nay, you don't know this ;) ; look 0.95 of each drive will give 0.95x0.95=0.9025 total reliability, the rule is use multiply, not dividing by.

[P Smith]

JBOD = Just a Box Of Disks; a mode where each disk device is presented as its own target.. that's a bit different than raid 0 concat, where drive space is simply concatenated together.
not "simply", but as a sequence of "stripes" accross all disks included into RAID-0
Man, where is your certificate ? :)

Also, JBOD is "Just a Bunch Of Disks"

[matto]

not "simply", but as a sequence of "stripes" accross all disks included into RAID-0

No, I said raid 0 concat, not raid 0 stripe.


Man, where is your certificate ? :)

No certificate, just a decade and change in the industry..



Also, JBOD is "Just a Bunch Of Disks"
I beg to differ, but either works fine.

[YankeeFan]

I beg to differ, but either works fine.


Actually RAID-0 will give you better performance. If I understand it correctly, JBOD will write to one disk until it is full and then start on the second disk, whereas RAID-0 will write to both disks at the same time using both channels.

[P Smith]

matto, you messed with JBOD or logical volume; RAID-0 still be a stripe set accross many (2+) disks for do cut response time reducing head's movement. Decade ? Too old, loosing memory of old stuff :D.

[matto]

Actually RAID-0 will give you better performance. If I understand it correctly, JBOD will write to one disk until it is full and then start on the second disk, whereas RAID-0 will write to both disks at the same time using both channels.

Close, but no.

JBOD presents each storage device as a seperate target, so each physical disk can be addressed individually.

RAID0 concat simply aggregates the drive space by concatenating the end of one to the beginning of another. Think of stacking books.

RAID0 striping spreads the data across all the devices its been given in small chunks call ed stripes. You'll get better performance striping, but have much less chance at data recovery if a device fails.

[matto]

matto, you messed with JBOD or logical volume; RAID-0 still be a stripe set accross many (2+) disks for do cut response time reducing head's movement. Decade ? Too old, loosing memory of old stuff :D.

No, actually, I do this for a living, instead of skimming wikipedia articles.

[P Smith]

Well, that's going into real challenge ( you're not only one who works for server support ).
What equipment you pointing ? Platform, HA, management SW, FW revision ?
Skimming ? Have seen first Radiion boxes ? Yeah, it was long before your 10 year experiense start...
No, you'll not slip here, man ! :)

Your "concat" mode just lame name/implementeation of JBOD. Are you trust those marketing gimmicks ?
What the company manufacture this thing ? Is is HW RAID controller ?

You probably don't understand initial idea of RAID invention, just rely to that word on your console. The "concut" mode make no different to logical volume management - nothing to gain, not a close to RAID type.

[matto]

Well, that's going into real challenge ( you're not only one who works for server support ).
What equipment you pointing ? Platform, HA, management SW, FW revision ?
No, you'll not slip here, man ! :)

Wow, you talk like Yoda.

Anyway, I don't do "server support", I did large-scale site architecture.
Probably a few names you'd recognize. BBN Planet, Electronic Arts, Sony, Register.com, UC Berkeley. A couple of national-footprint ISPs in Japan.

For the last year or so I've been writing software instead, its much less grunt work.

Where have you been working?

Platforms? Mostly Solaris and RHEL. I've done some IRIX work but won't admit it.
HA? Sure. Did some clustering. Qualix, Veritas Cluster, Sun Cluster.

What have you worked with, and did you implement, or just maintain?

Not really here to toot my horn, just trying to inject some factually correct information in the thread.

[Earl Bonovich]

:backtotop Alright Alright... before you all start to whip it out and measure.......

[P Smith]

I came from server's farms trenches and had a deal with system architectors ...
Well, now I know where is the "concut" came from. :lol: Good Lord.
Our fields not crossed. And I have respect to the authors of RAID concept In Berkeley !
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~garth/RAIDpaper/Patterson88.pdf

Solaris and RHEL ... , well it was when SunOS been alone and SCO Unix began his way up, I did build a lot of Sun servers and SS using RAID different levels by my hands literally, but never saw/heard about RAID-0 "concut".
Probably it's just system architector's slang. :lol:

[matto]

:backtotop Alright Alright... before you all start to whip it out and measure.......

i couldn't pass up a "real challenge" :lol:

[Earl Bonovich]

And for the record... I was referring to whipping out the resumes and measuring line items..... what did you think I was refering to?

!devil12:

[sthor]

In this quote from the OP:

"DirecTV will NOT increase their designed usage space for recordings. (these numbers are estimates)If if you add a 500gb drive; 400gb will be for user space, 100gb for DirecTV. If you had 21TB; 20,900gb for user space, 100gb for DirecTV Edited from original post"

I am unclear what you mean by "100gb for DirecTV" vs "user space".

I added a second 80 gb Maxtor to my Sony SAT-60 DirecTivo about 5 years ago so I am not totally unfamiliar with the concepts, just the terminology. I am planning to upgrade to the HR-20 or possibly going to the darkside and getting a Tivo S3 when I upgrade to HD this Christmas. I am used to having 105 hrs of TIVO time and would be unhappy with less.

[PoitNarf]

I am unclear what you mean by "100gb for DirecTV" vs "user space".

This is refering to content that D* pushes to the HR20, not space used for recordings that you specifically set up.

[matto]

This is refering to content that D* pushes to the HR20, not space used for recordings that you specifically set up.

correct me if i'm off base here, but this seems to be the most retarded idea yet from d*.

shouldnt that stuff occupy unused space, and get purged first when space is needed for recordings we want?

who's freakin dvr is it, anyway? between the 30-second commercial preview, and the "Space You Can't Use" feature, it really seems like D*'s decided to show us paying customers who's the boss.

[sthor]

This is refering to content that D* pushes to the HR20, not space used for recordings that you specifically set up.

Thanks for the reply.

Would that be what Tivo calls "Tivo Suggestions"?

If so that would not matter to me because In almost 6 years I have never recorded a Tivo Suggestion. I specify all recordings manually or with a Season Pass.

[Earl Bonovich]

I am used to having 105 hrs of TIVO time and would be unhappy with less.

With the stock drive in the HR20... you get 200 hours of SD material, 50 of MPEG4, and 30 of MPEG2

So to get 105 hours of MPEG-4, you would need at least a 750gb external hard drive (or really a combiantion of TWO 300gb in an external case RAID style)... or over 1,000GB (1TB) to get over 100hours of MPEG2 HD...

Same is pretty much true for the Tivo Series 3...
Can the T3 be upgraded yet?

[PoitNarf]

correct me if i'm off base here, but this seems to be the most retarded idea yet from d*.

shouldnt that stuff occupy unused space, and get purged first when space is needed for recordings we want?

who's freakin dvr is it, anyway? between the 30-second commercial preview, and the "Space You Can't Use" feature, it really seems like D*'s decided to show us paying customers who's the boss.

I'm unclear on exactly how it works, but apparently the R15 does the same thing.

[Earl Bonovich]

Would that be what Tivo calls "Tivo Suggestions"?


Closer to TiVo Showcases, then Suggestions.
As Showcases is what TIVO/DirecTV choose to highlight on your NowPlaying, where Suggestions is based on your viewing habits.

[Earl Bonovich]

who's freakin dvr is it, anyway?

Do we need to start the LEASED aspect of the DVR's again...

But regardless.. you are still get the space that is quoted by the unit.
The drive is a 300gb drive, which will provide the stated hours for the unit.

This is the exact same as the R15

[P Smith]

Dish made on ViP622 reserved 100GB for VOD from 320 GB total and no way to use it.

[lguvenoz]

I am contemplating this route to try and improve the reliability of my HR20. Has anyone noticed any performance/reliability improvements with using an eSata device?? I would hope that we might see better results with a higher quality drive.

[PoitNarf]

I am contemplating this route to try and improve the reliability of my HR20. Has anyone noticed any performance/reliability improvements with using an eSata device?? I would hope that we might see better results with a higher quality drive.

Might be less prone to crashes IF those crashes were caused by excessive heat from the internal HD (although I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that units are overheating and crashing). Has anyone taken any temp readings on their HR20 when an external drive is connected?

[sthor]

With the stock drive in the HR20... you get 200 hours of SD material, 50 of MPEG4, and 30 of MPEG2

So to get 105 hours of MPEG-4, you would need at least a 750gb external hard drive (or really a combiantion of TWO 300gb in an external case RAID style)... or over 1,000GB (1TB) to get over 100hours of MPEG2 HD...

Same is pretty much true for the Tivo Series 3...
Can the T3 be upgraded yet?


Sounds like I am going to be shopping for some big drives either way!

Now if I could just find the 30_sec_skip.com online store I would be set:)

Seriously the 30 sec skip is a big deal to me (and the wife). But then I hate cable.

HR20 having the ESATA option (which the S3 doesn't have yet) is a bigger deal to me than the 30 sec skip but why can't I have both and keep Directv? I know, its a rhetorical question but it accurately reflects my thinking on this subject.

Its as important as the HD display selection process which I am also working on at the same time.

[lguvenoz]

Might be less prone to crashes IF those crashes were caused by excessive heat from the internal HD (although I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that units are overheating and crashing). Has anyone taken any temp readings on their HR20 when an external drive is connected?

My thoughts are more around the reliability of the drive itself. Seagate drives have, in my experience, been a little flaky with SATA implementations. In particular the DB35 series that these units use has not always been SATA, and I'm curious if it might be a less than optimal solution.

Add in the fact that Seagate has "optimized" these drives for DVR use and I am wondering if a lot of the anomalies with playback might simply be hard drive glitches. Either dropped bits or stream "hiccups"

I'm looking at assembling my own external unit using Hitachi Deskstar drives as they consistently seem to deliver very high performance and great reliability. Just wondering if anyone who has gone the eSATA route has seen any appreciable differences in these areas.

[DVRaholic]

Might be less prone to crashes IF those crashes were caused by excessive heat from the internal HD (although I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that units are overheating and crashing). Has anyone taken any temp readings on their HR20 when an external drive is connected?
I have the external connect since yesterday, I now have 6 MPEG-4 recordings and everything seems fine.
Just did a read of Internal temp from the "info & Test" screen and it says 122F
When I was just running the internal drive my temp used to read 124F
Not much of a difference

FYI My External drive is a Maxtor 500GB Quickview Drive

[bonscott87]

correct me if i'm off base here, but this seems to be the most retarded idea yet from d*.

shouldnt that stuff occupy unused space, and get purged first when space is needed for recordings we want?


No different then Tivo and it's "reserved" space for showcases. Exact same thing.

[matto]

I'm looking at assembling my own external unit using Hitachi Deskstar drives as they consistently seem to deliver very high performance and great reliability. Just wondering if anyone who has gone the eSATA route has seen any appreciable differences in these areas.

lol Deathstar, good luck. I'd stick with Seagates.

[PoitNarf]

lol Deathstar, good luck. I'd stick with Seagates.

Weren't the IBM drives deathstars?

[matto]

Weren't the IBM drives deathstars?

Yeah, IBM sold the whole biz to Hitachi.

[PoitNarf]

Yeah, IBM sold the whole biz to Hitachi.

I wouldn't touch them with a 1000 foot SATA cable!

I've dealt with Deathstars at many previous jobs, and I'll never put any trust in any drive with that model name! :D

[DVRaholic]

Just tried to turn on morning news and HR20 is frozen with black screen, dont know if its eSATA related but I'm rebooting now....

Reboot done, all seems ok, last nights recordings there. Must of just been HR20 related and not eSATA related
Of course now my Guide is gone and needs to repopulate :(

[TMullenJr]

Also keep in mind that if you stripe across two disks, you are halving your mean time to failure- meaning you're twice likely to experience a disk failure, and a failure of either means you lose all the data on your array.

I thought the whole point of RAID was that data was mirrrored, so in case of a drive failure you don't lose your data.

And if the data is mirrored, and you had two 500GB drives, I would think you would still only have 500GB, not 1TB???

[hdtvfan0001]

I thought the whole point of RAID was that data was mirrored, so in case of a drive failure you don't lose your data.

And if the data is mirrored, and you had two 500GB drives, I would think you would still only have 500GB, not 1TB???
That's not RAID works.

RAID is not "mirrored" data storage, its distributed data storage - the data is split up among multiple drives in a data string, so that if one fails, an algorithm can calculate the missing part of any data string and restore it on a newly inserted replacement drive. This way, regardless of which physical drive fails, recovery can take place.

[macmantis]

RAID definition changes on the level. RAID level 0 acts different than RAID level 1. Also , the larger level number does not necessarily mean anything. I have not posted enough so I can not post a link but wikipedia has an extensive article and will do a better job than me. The article is RAID at wikipedia.

[911medic]

I thought the whole point of RAID was that data was mirrrored, so in case of a drive failure you don't lose your data.

And if the data is mirrored, and you had two 500GB drives, I would think you would still only have 500GB, not 1TB???http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

RAID 0 is "striped" which offers better performance but "halves your mean time to failure" as indicated above, since you're relying on two HDDs. Striping does increase capacity as it causes the system to see the two drives as one large drive (no data redundancy).

RAID 1 is "mirrored" which makes a duplicate copy of your data on the second drive, which offers better protection, since if one drive fails you have an exact copy of everything on the second drive (data redundancy). Mirroring doesn't increase storage capacity, since it sees both drives are seen as one same-sized drive.

[911medic]

That's not RAID works.

RAID is not "mirrored" data storage, its distributed data storage - the data is split up among multiple drives in a data string, so that if one fails, an algorithm can calculate the missing part of any data string and restore it on a newly inserted replacement drive. This way, regardless of which physical drive fails, recovery can take place.Depends on the level, as stated above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

[sbcale]

Can the T3 be upgraded yet?

Yes, they can be upgraded. :)

http://www.weaknees.com/series-3-hd-tivo.php

[Earl Bonovich]

Yes, than can be upgraded. :)

http://www.weaknees.com/series-3-hd-tivo.php

Yikes those are some heavy duty prices...

[PoitNarf]

Yikes those are some heavy duty prices...

Actually this caught my attention even more:

"Buy this TiVo and get your existing lifetime TiVo service transferred for $199!"

One would think that a lifetime subscription would not have transfer fees when you upgrade to a newer box. But Sirius does the same thing with their lifetime subscriptions, annoying but true. I still don't understand why these companies charge insane fees for what amounts to just changing a few fields in some database tables...

[sbcale]

Yikes those are some heavy duty prices...

Yeah, and then on top of that add the Tivo monthly service charge and whatever you have to pay for cable and DirecTV is a steal.

[cabanaboy1977]

Actually this caught my attention even more:

"Buy this TiVo and get your existing lifetime TiVo service transferred for $199!"

One would think that a lifetime subscription would not have transfer fees when you upgrade to a newer box. But Sirius does the same thing with their lifetime subscriptions, annoying but true. I still don't understand why these companies charge insane fees for what amounts to just changing a few fields in some database tables...

That's because "lifetime" is the lifetime of the box, or at least that's the way it was explained to me.

[borghe]

Yeah, and then on top of that add the Tivo monthly service charge and whatever you have to pay for cable and DirecTV is a steal.

to be fair, the "monthly tivo service charge" is more than made up for by not having to pay for a digital cable DVR and DVR service fee from cable. In my area at least, TWC is only charging $1.75/month per cablecard. so $3.50 + $13 = $16.50/month. Now take into account that our boxes are $8/month and our DVR service is $7/month. $15/month... and of course if you do a lifetime sub on that tivo (which is in your price that you are gawking at), your monthly subscription is only the $3.50 for two cablecards.

not too bad. of course the box is still $800, but considering I paid $1000 for my HR10.... again, not too bad. and in two years when you'll be able to get the series 3 for like $199 with no contract vs DirecTV committing to a two year contract.. something to think about.

[sbcale]

to be fair, the "monthly tivo service charge" is more than made up for by not having to pay for a digital cable DVR and DVR service fee from cable. In my area at least, TWC is only charging $1.75/month per cablecard. so $3.50 + $13 = $16.50/month. Now take into account that our boxes are $8/month and our DVR service is $7/month. $15/month... and of course if you do a lifetime sub on that tivo (which is in your price that you are gawking at), your monthly subscription is only the $3.50 for two cablecards.

not too bad. of course the box is still $800, but considering I paid $1000 for my HR10.... again, not too bad. and in two years when you'll be able to get the series 3 for like $199 with no contract vs DirecTV committing to a two year contract.. something to think about.

Ok, well this is how I am looking at it. I have 2 HR20s, an HR15, a HR10, and a SAT-T60. To get ONLY 2 HD Tivos to replace my HR20s (one of which I paid for the other I got free, so a total cost to me of $300) I would have to spend $1600 on the HD Tivos and $16 - $20 (I am not sure about the cost of a Tivo subscription) on each of the Tivo monthly subscriptions plus the cable card fee for each and that is not including my 3 other DVRs (of those I only had to pay for 1). I do not have a lifetime subscription to transfer, and even if I did it wouldn't cover the 2-3 HD DVRs I want to have. I am only paying $4.99 a month for 4 of the DVRs so that is far cheaper than the monthly cost of a Tivo subscription. Not only that but my cable company is about 25% more expensive than DirecTV with a comparable package. So to me that seems not too bad.

[Doug Brott]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

RAID 0 is "striped" which offers better performance but "halves your mean time to failure" as indicated above, since you're relying on two HDDs. Striping does increase capacity as it causes the system to see the two drives as one large drive (no data redundancy).

Striping disks (RAID 0) in general provides a performance improvement. However, for the HR20 and the video streaming operations, there is little need for improvement. The data "flow rate" really isn't going to change since there's pretty much just one application running on the HR20. The only "benefit" is the ability to increase your disk capacity by doubling, tripling, etc. your devices. A larger device should be preferred over two smaller devices in this particular scenario (HR20). You should only need a striped setup if you are using the maximum sized drives available to increase your storage capacity; otherwise, you are increasing your possibility of failure with no real benefit.


RAID 1 is "mirrored" which makes a duplicate copy of your data on the second drive, which offers better protection, since if one drive fails you have an exact copy of everything on the second drive (data redundancy). Mirroring doesn't increase storage capacity, since it sees both drives are seen as one same-sized drive.

The RAID 1 setup, as mentioned here, greatly improves your reliability. If there is some way to know that a drive has gone bad, you can simply replace the bad drive with a good one. No capacity improvement, but significant reliability improvement.

There is also RAID 5 and RAID 4, both of which basically use an extra drive in an array of 3 or more drives to provide both redundancy and improved performance. RAID 10 is a set of striped (RAID 0) drives that is mirrored (RAID 1) with another set of striped drives. RAID 10 gives you both perfomance and capacity improvements as well.

This is just my 2 cents of information.

[P Smith]

In reality, the HR20 can support only one external device with 2 disks combined by RAID-0 or RAID-1 - your choice is very limited.

Not necessary to blur the topic ( sorry for my pick on matto ).

[Earl Bonovich]

In reality, the HR20 can support only one external device with 2 disks combined by RAID-0 or RAID-1 - your choice is very limited.

Not necessary to blur the topic ( sorry for my pick on matto ).


Not necessarily...
If someone built a RAID-0 enclosure that would support more then two drives.
So long as it exposed it self via the eSATA connection... it should work.

[P Smith]

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.

[DJConan]

I wouldn't touch them with a 1000 foot SATA cable!

I've dealt with Deathstars at many previous jobs, and I'll never put any trust in any drive with that model name! :D

I've dealt with thousands of hard drives with my job and have to say that it's a matter of preference. I've seen them all fail equally. I think people should buy the one that meets their expectations. Some are quieter, some are faster, some are cooler and some are cheaper.

Me personally...I currently have a WD Raptor, Diamond Max 10 and a "Deathstar" in my most used system. My "Deathstar" is the oldest running drive of the bunch at this point in time.

At the time I bought my Hitachi, it was one of the fastest 7200rpm drives. When I bought the Maxtor later on, that was one of the fastest 7200rpm drives and when the Raptor reached my price point, obviously, that's the fastest drive I have. :)

I would think the faster drives would improve start up performance slightly as well as a stripped RAID, but how much faster? I think in a DVR, the preferences of most would look something like: Noise > Temp > Cost > Speed.

[P Smith]

I would say from business point of view: COST-> SPEC ie speed, etc including NOISE.

[Earl Bonovich]

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.


Hmm...did not know that....

Well at least with two striped 750gb, that gives you pretty good sized hard drive.

[PoitNarf]

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.

Are you refering to port multipliers? I know I've seen self RAIDed enclosures that support 2 drives, but I haven't seen any with more than 2 drives without the attached disclaimer stating that the SATA controller it connects to needs to support port multipliers.

[DJConan]

I would say from business point of view: COST-> SPEC ie speed, etc including NOISE.

I agree from a business view, cost would likely be first. I was referring to the DIY people here. I think for an add-on drive, a lot of people would be concerned about noise.

Maybe I'm wrong...I personally don't care about noise so long as it's not unusually loud. I've read lots of reviews of people complaining the Raptors are loud. Inside my computer, I don't hear any of my hard drives, so I don't care. :lol:

When I'm 10-15 feet away from my TV and HR20 and have surround sound blasting away, I surely won't hear the little clicks of a hard drive. :)

[harsh]

who's freakin dvr is it, anyway? between the 30-second commercial preview, and the "Space You Can't Use" feature, it really seems like D*'s decided to show us paying customers who's the boss.Going forward, it will be D*'s receiver that they lease to you.

D* is trying to ape TiVo and other perceived "industry leaders" to try to become an industry leader themselves. The rest of us know that the only way to become an "industry leader" is to deliver what people want.

TiVo doesn't lead any industry, but the perception is there because they offer a product that is relatively well though out, easy to use and relatively reliable. These are the lessons that D* needs to learn.

[P Smith]

Hmm...did not know that....

Well at least with two striped 750gb, that gives you pretty good sized hard drive.

That's right, or if we will wait a little when 1 TB disk will come ...

[Earl Bonovich]

That's right, or if we will wait a little when 1 TB disk will come ...

Did Seagate just announce a 1 TB sata drive?

[noobie937]

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.

Do we know this for sure? I haven't dug too far, but I don't remember seeing anything on the chipsets and firmware and/or software that the HR20 is using. Or if it is able to use port multipliers or not. Probably not an easy question to answer unless Earl can get into the dev side of things there.

Will be an expensive "test" for one of us to do unless someone here runs or works for a resaler that would have access to a >2 drive eSATA chasis and the drives to test it.

[jbellanca]

Anyway, I don't do "server support", I did large-scale site architecture. Probably a few names you'd recognize. BBN Planet, Electronic Arts, Sony, Register.com, UC Berkeley. A couple of national-footprint ISPs in Japan.

For the last year or so I've been writing software instead, its much less grunt work.

Where have you been working?

I feel like we should all thump our chests, wave big sticks around and throw rocks. Our toys may change over time, but the human race still sticks to it's roots. :)

[P Smith]

enough posting Off-TOPIC

if you have HR20, could you tell us what SATA chip is there ?

[william8004]

From what I've read in this thread, this drive should work.

Compusa SKU# 341441
(it won't let me link until I've made 5 posts)

Am I correct?


Also,
Does a drive bay report back to the computer or DVR that only only large drive exists eventhough 4 physically reside in the box? I think this is a correct statement. So if one drive goes bad then I'm SOL if I was running RAID 0.

Thanks guys

[Earl Bonovich]

Also,
Does a drive bay report back to the computer or DVR that only only large drive exists eventhough 4 physically reside in the box? I think this is a correct statement. So if one drive goes bad then I'm SOL if I was running RAID 0.

Thanks guys

In a RAID0... one disk goes bad... then yes, for all practical purposes... you are SOL..

and yes:
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=srch1&Ntt=341441&N=0&Dx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&D=341441&Ntk=All&product_code=341441

should work just fine

[P Smith]

"even though 4 physically reside in the box" - no way for regular eSATA box;
only 1 or 2 disk allowed.

[dtvmiami]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812174001&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=12-174-001

That is the same one I found in a search, but it is backwards for this application.

That adapter is to take an eSATA device and connect it to a USB Port.
We need an adapter that takes a USB Device and connects it to a eSATA port.

Or is it just too late and I am backwards?

It looked that way to me as well, but wouldn't a male to male esata cable and a usb coupler make this compatible?

I don't know if it would.. guess it depends on what is going on inside that adapter.

Here is a link to their website for more info.


http://www.addonics.com/products/io/aau2esa.asp

I just emailed them and asked them if this would be a viable option. I will post when I find out something.

Any reply or follow up on this yet? B4 I read these posts I google and found same item and though similar to making it work. Perhaps we'll see one of the like on ebay sometime soon.

[hadji]

Any reply or follow up on this yet? B4 I read these posts I google and found same item and though similar to making it work. Perhaps we'll see one of the like on ebay sometime soon.

no word yet.

[william8004]

In a RAID0... one disk goes bad... then yes, for all practical purposes... you are SOL..

Thanks Earl. I'll probably wait for the 750 or 1T to come out.

[P Smith]

Fry's selling 750 GB for $309

[cw18306]

Did Seagate just announce a 1 TB sata drive?

Western Digital has one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822136061

[harsh]

Western Digital has one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822136061Understand that a USB/Firewire RAID is probably not going to work well as an SATA (or eSATA) hard drive. I'm not ready to buy into the idea that a USB -> eSATA or Firewire -> eSATA interface converter is going to work.

[P Smith]

And the MyBook device content two 500 GB disks. Not one.

[bbroach]

This is the one I'm looking at...it has built in hardware RAID 0 and RAID 1

http://www.nitroav.com/store/files/images/t_326.gif

http://www.nitroav.com/product/442/

Has anyone hooked one of these up to an HR20 yet? I'm about to pull the trigger on one & can't see any reason why it wouldn't be compatible. I spent some time yesterday with NitroAv online support; they had no info on the HR20, but were able to tell me that the drives they are shipping are Seagate.


regards, billb....

[PoitNarf]

Has anyone hooked one of these up to an HR20 yet? I'm about to pull the trigger on one & can't see any reason why it wouldn't be compatible. I spent some time yesterday with NitroAv online support; they had no info on the HR20, but were able to tell me that the drives they are shipping are Seagate.


regards, billb....

You could be our forum eSATA RAID guinea pig if you're really itching to pull the trigger :D

[jedster]

Fry's selling 750 GB for $309

esata? what brand? must go get one. NOW!!!

Love that fry's.

6 months from now they'll be selling 1TB esata for $99

[bbroach]

You could be our forum eSATA RAID guinea pig if you're really itching to pull the trigger :D

Deal; I'll post results when it arrives - ETA is Thursday, Oct 12.

Products ordered
SKU Product Item price Quantity Total

81.V8-100706-22615 2-Bay Vanguard IIIS SATA & USBv2 Combo Ultra-Fast Hardware RAID
Selected Options/Bundles:
2-Bay Vanguard IIIs Hard Drive Configurations
1000GB (2x 500GB -7200RPM w/16Mb Cache) SATA RAID Subsystem
Vanguard IIIS Warranty Options
Vangaurd IIIS Extended Warranty ** (2 Years Total) Not available on enclosure kit sales.
2-Bay Vanguard IIIs Format & RAID Setup
Linux NFS-EXT2 (RedHat) Raid Level '0'
$898.95 1 $898.95
Subtotal: $898.95
Shipping cost: $27.26
Insurance: $6.12

Total: $932.33



regards, billb....

[PoitNarf]

Deal; I'll post results when it arrives - ETA is Thursday, Oct 12.

Yikes, didn't think you would actually do it! Very curious to see the results :D

[bbroach]

Yikes, didn't think you would actually do it! Very curious to see the results :D

"'Tis easier to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission." *

:cuttle:

*(Married Man's Handbook, page 2)


regards, billb....

[dthashiro]

Question...I read on the thread that the HR20 will go back to using (and formatting?) the internal drive if the external drive has been removed. If this was correct, can the following scenario below be done? If this scenario has already been discussed, my apologies, but I couldn't find it in the 9 pages of threads.

1. Connect external drive and turn on HR20, so that the drive will be formatted and used by the HR20.
2. Power down HR20, replace internal drive with new off-the-shelf 750GB SATA and remove external HD.
3. Power up HR20 and have the HR20 format the internal drive for use?

[PoitNarf]

Question...I read on the thread that the HR20 will go back to using (and formatting?) the internal drive if the external drive has been removed. If this was correct, can the following scenario below be done? If this scenario has already been discussed, my apologies, but I couldn't find it in the 9 pages of threads.

1. Connect external drive and turn on HR20, so that the drive will be formatted and used by the HR20.
2. Power down HR20, replace internal drive with new off-the-shelf 750GB SATA and remove external HD.
3. Power up HR20 and have the HR20 format the internal drive for use?

It doesn't matter if you hook up another drive internally or externally. If the drive already has the file structure that the HR20 put on it, it will not be formatted. If the drive has never been hooked up to an HR20 before, it will format it. You can just plop the drive inside the HR20 if you really want to.

[bbroach]

Question...I read on the thread that the HR20 will go back to using (and formatting?) the internal drive if the external drive has been removed. If this was correct, can the following scenario below be done? If this scenario has already been discussed, my apologies, but I couldn't find it in the 9 pages of threads.

1. Connect external drive and turn on HR20, so that the drive will be formatted and used by the HR20.
2. Power down HR20, replace internal drive with new off-the-shelf 750GB SATA and remove external HD.
3. Power up HR20 and have the HR20 format the internal drive for use?

It's unclear to me why you would go through this procedure to install a new internal drive (is that your objective - a bigger internal drive?). My understanding is that you simply replace the internal with a new (bigger) HD & the OS will recognize, format, and use it. I went for the eSATA solution to avoid cracking the box open on my HR20; the OS should format and use the RAID. I hope that D* will eventually support use of the internal drive at the same time as the external, giving me 1.3TB total storage.


regards, billb....

Edit: Dang! I'm too slow a keyboarder for this forum... :D

[DVRaholic]

Has anyone hooked one of these up to an HR20 yet? I'm about to pull the trigger on one & can't see any reason why it wouldn't be compatible. I spent some time yesterday with NitroAv online support; they had no info on the HR20, but were able to tell me that the drives they are shipping are Seagate.


regards, billb....
Mine is being delivered monday along with 2 320GB hard drives to give me 640GB

[Guitar Hero]

I plan to get the following in the next month, or so. (I'm waiting for the PS3 to come out so I can get a larger 2.5 HDD for it at the same time I get the 3.5 drives for my HR20 in order to save on shipping and to make sure everything will work out fine.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822136014

http://www.cooldrives.com/usb2-sata-mini-raid-system-sata-raid.html

The two problems I see, so far, are the eSATA connection points and SATA I or SATA II speeds of the HDDs.

There are two different types of eSATA connection points, if you can believe that. One "I" shape kind and one "L" shape kind. Which one is on the HR20 and which one is on the eSATA VAULT system?

Second, the HDD are SATA II and the SATA VAULT said something about "jumping" faster SATA II drives to make them work. Can that be done? What is that? Here's the warning: "** PLEASE NOTE: SOME NEW SATA II Drives Will REQUIRE to be Set to SATA I Speed Via Jumper for Compatibility Reasons!"

[pappys]

bbroach, is that your driver's license picture? scaarrrrry....lol:eek2:

[bbroach]

bbroach, is that your driver's license picture? scaarrrrry....lol:eek2:

No, it's my badge pic from National Semiconductor (18 years ago); working in the silicon mines all these ears has turned my hair completely white, but I look pretty much the same.:lol:


regards, billb....

[houskamp]

I plan to get the following in the next month, or so. (I'm waiting for the PS3 to come out so I can get a larger 2.5 HDD for it at the same time I get the 3.5 drives for my HR20 in order to save on shipping and to make sure everything will work out fine.)[/b]

waiting for the ps3? hr20 could be obsolete by then :lol:

[harsh]

One more question. Is the E-SATA controller limited to 1.5GB/s or can it handle a 3GB/s?Two channels of MPEG2 HD requires somewhere around 2.5MB/second. The maximum sustained transfer rate of the typical hard drive is less than 80MB/second. You would need a four-drive RAID to need 3GB/second.

[houskamp]

Two channels of MPEG2 HD requires somewhere around 2.5MB/second. The maximum sustained transfer rate of the typical hard drive is less than 80MB/second. You would need a four-drive RAID to need 3GB/second.

??????????????????

[grate88]

Would this drive set in sata enclosure be a good choice? Would it work? Thanks

http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4551377

[Earl Bonovich]

Would this drive set in sata enclosure be a good choice? Would it work? Thanks

http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4551377

Sure... it would be fine.

[grate88]

Thanks Earl.

[grate88]

One more Question.

Would adding an esata drive stop the annoying chirping noise I'm getting from the internal drive?

Thanks.

[P Smith]

Yes, but you could get same noise from external box, so check it first before swap disks.

[brewer4]

I dont need the disc space since I have 1 HR20 and 2 HD Tivos but this is sooo awesome! Everyone good luck with your drives!!! I might do this in the future if its supplemental disc space.

[bonscott87]

I just may have to spring for an eSATA drive or a second HR20 as I'm already running out of space recording all this HD! :(

[Gotchaa]

I came up with nearly the same results.



According to DirecTV, the HR20 is capable of recording up to 200 hours of SD, up to 30 hours of MPEG2 HD, and up to 50 hours of MPEG4 HD. Based on that, here's what I've come up with.

Internal 300GB drive

SD: 200 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 30 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 50 Hours


External 500GB drive

SD: 333 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 50 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 83 Hours


External 750GB drive

SD: 500 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 75 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 125 Hours


External 1TB drive

SD: 667 Hours
HD (MPEG2): 100 Hours
HD (MPEG4): 167 Hours



This is, of course, assuming DirecTV based their estimates on the capacity of the entire hard drive instead of just what is available to us.

I'd really like an eSATA drive. :D

Paul


I actually got 124hrs of Mpeg2 recording with a 750GB drive. This was of course an earlier version of the software so not sure if the D* space was restricted back then...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=647760#post647760

[Earl Bonovich]

I just may have to spring for an eSATA drive or a second HR20 as I'm already running out of space recording all this HD! :(

2nd HR20.... Cheaper then an eSATA drive larger then 500gb
And you get two more tuners ... :) (granted there is the $4.99 fee though)

[pappys]

2nd HR20.... Cheaper then an eSATA drive larger then 500gb
And you get two more tuners ... :) (granted there is the $4.99 fee though)

point well taken...I wonder how much I could confuse the wife with a 2nd HDtivo..............................pondering..... .she never really got used to switching between dual buffers on the tivo, so she probably would never use the 2nd HDTivo.....I could record all of my shows on the one she would never see....;)

[YankeeFan]

2nd HR20.... Cheaper then an eSATA drive larger then 500gb
And you get two more tuners ... :) (granted there is the $4.99 fee though)

I'd rather buy a 750gb than have to run another two lines of coax...the wife would kill me...

[billt1111]

2nd HR20.... Cheaper then an eSATA drive larger then 500gb
And you get two more tuners ... :) (granted there is the $4.99 fee though)

Great idea unless you are out of RG6 cables running to your entertainment system. When they activate OTA I will have to disconnect one of my tuners and plug in the OTA just so that I have a high quality HD source for locals. Earl can you speculate if having only one satellite tuner and the ATSC tuner would be a problem for the HR20?

[Earl Bonovich]

Great idea unless you are out of RG6 cables running to your entertainment system. When they activate OTA I will have to disconnect one of my tuners and plug in the OTA just so that I have a high quality HD source for locals. Earl can you speculate if having only one satellite tuner and the ATSC tuner would be a problem for the HR20?

I really don't know at this point... shouldn't be, but...

[matto]

Please be aware that there are probably very few external enclosures designed for an always-on duty cycle. The best you can probably do is find one with above-average cooling, and then take it down every six months or so to clean out the crud that the fan has sucked in.

[Earl Bonovich]

Please be aware that there are probably very few external enclosures designed for an always-on duty cycle. The best you can probably do is find one with above-average cooling, and then take it down every six months or so to clean out the crud that the fan has sucked in.

Another good reason for an enterpising company to build and external solution, that is about the same width as the HR20, and tall enough to hold two drives with adequate cooling...ect....

[YankeeFan]

Here's a question for technical gurus here:

What's the longest possible eSATA cable I can get away with?

Are there alternatives that will allow me to put the drive in another room and connect over ethernet???

[Earl Bonovich]

Here's a question for technical gurus here:

What's the longest possible eSATA cable I can get away with?

Are there alternatives that will allow me to put the drive in another room and connect over ethernet???

I don't have an answer for the first one... but I would expect it to be relatively short. Hard drive connections are not really intented to be too far away from the unit they are connected to.

As for eSATA->Network.... I don't know of one that can do that, and don't think there would be one, just because of latency issues.

[YankeeFan]

I don't have an answer for the first one... but I would expect it to be relatively short. Hard drive connections are not really intented to be too far away from the unit they are connected to.

As for eSATA->Network.... I don't know of one that can do that, and don't think there would be one, just because of latency issues.

What I reeeeaallly want is HMC!! :D