721 Tech Chat Thoughts

[Scott Greczkowski]

I was going to talk about this on tonight DBSTalk Video News Update but I want to do it here as well. :)  Of course my views are my own and may not reflect the views of the rest of the staff here at DBSTalk.COM

Last night was the first tech chat held since the release of the 721. The first thing out of the gate on the Tech Chat was news and information about the 721. I was surprised that there was no demo of the 721, it was almost like they expected everyone to know what the 721 is and how it works. The person who edited the 721 should be shot,  I can not recall any time in the past where I have gotten dizzy watching a video.

Anyways...

I was very happy to hear the changes they were making to the 721 software. I found it amusing that almost all the new features we based off of my comments from my review here at DBSTalk. (If you have not seen it yet, you can view the review of the 721 at http://www.dbstalk.com/review/) It just goes to show that Echostar is listening.

Well I hope they are listening now.

Last night there was a question about the 721's internet access we were told that Internet is not available because no national DSL deal has been signed yet. To make matters worse Dan Minnick who is one of the VP's of software development said that Internet access would ONLY be available to those who subscribe to Dish Networks Internet DSL provider.

Excuse me? Only?

When the 721 was first mentioned on the Tech Chats and Charlie chats it was discussed that the 721 would be able to be hooked up to ANY broadband connection. DSL was mention, Cable Modems was mentioned and Starband was mentioned. Now they are saying Internet access will only be available if you subscribe to one of their providers.

Even if and when Dish Network does sign a national deal for DSL service, national service does not mean that the service is available everywhere in the nation. DSL has it's limitations, if you live far away from your local telephone companies CO (central office) then chances are you CAN'T get DSL.

Also what makes a broadband connection from your own DSL provider or Cable modem provider any different then the one that you will get from the DSL provider that Dish Network says you must have?

Does this mean that once you do subscribe to DSL service from the Dish Partner ISP you must call Dish Network to have your broadband features on the 721 turned on?

Here is my suggestion to Dish Network, turn on the broadband feature for EVERYONE. This is the way you originally advertised the unit. I don’t mind if Dish partners with a DSL company but don’t force me to change my broadband provider just so I can use a feature, which will already be in my box!

I have no problem is Dish Network gives away the keyboard and USB Ethernet connecter free to anyone who signs up for a year contract with their DSL company. I have no problem paying up to $80 for the keyboard and Ethernet adapter if I can use my own broadband provider.

My advice is that 721 owners should be mad, flood Echostar with emails to ceo@echostar.com, every time your 721 hiccups call Dish Network and tie up their 800 lines (it’s their dime) and for the people thinking of buying a 721 I recommend that you should hold off purchasing a 721 until this issue is resolved.

I purchased the 721 expecting to use it with my broadband provider, this is the way the unit was originally advertised (I consider the Charlie Chats and the Tech Chats hour long advertisements) there is no reason I should have to change my broadband provider, my email address and the rest of my setup just so I can use a feature which Dish Network told us would be available to everyone with a broadband connection before they released the unit.

I am mad as hell, and if you’re a 721 owner or are thinking about it, you should be too.

[Rick_EE]

I noticed that detail, too.  It would keep me from buying a 721.  There have been a bunch of devices that were internet appliances- (a small e-mail device is one that I was interested in) and they all required you to subcribe to their isp.  They are all gone now.  If they could connect to anyone's router and dhcp service they might still be around.

[Geronimo]

Maybe the money is in the recurring fees.

[dmodemd]

That may explain the blue tape over "DSL-ready"... that would imply/advertise on the box that it can hook up to any DSL provider.

How can they strike a DSL deal if in the future they will be creating a new sat-based ISP service? I guess that will be worked into the deal - that this ISP will also be the provider for that, or acknowledges this is a short term situation.

More likely the latter since all of Dish's partnerships have been a failure and resulted in customers being left out in the cold.... Microsoft DishPlayer, Starband, etc...

Dish needs to focus on SAT TV and leave it at that. I dont want to pay for and wait for software that allows me to play games or surf the net on my TV - I already have other dedicated, more capable, devices for doing that. Hasn't the whole industry LEARNED after all the failed attempts that the model does not work?

Lee

[Karl Foster]

Lee,

I couldn't agree with your last paragraph more. I bought my UTV's to be PVRs - not Internet appliances. I have a computer for the Internet. I guess if it is your only means to get e-mail, that may be a different story, but to me Internet access on my tv as part of my PVR is a non-issue. I have probably logged two hours in year total on the MSNTV feature of my UTV, and that was to download the PVR function when I swapped hard drives. That is just my $.02 worth.

Work on making the PVR functions rock, and not worry about the Internet access....

[Richard King]

More likely the latter since all of Dish's partnerships have been a failure and resulted in customers being left out in the cold.... Microsoft DishPlayer, Starband, etc...
Starband customers are being serviced on a direct basis by Starband now and have not been left out in the cold (yet). Posted using Starband.

[Doug E]

Is the proposed internet connection only for broadband? Last night they only mentioned the connection as ISP and did not describe it as broadband. I live in the country and will never have access to either DSL or cable (and I certainly cannot afford Starband).

[Doug E]

Did you notice that the Tech Forum did not show 721's in the list of units being upgraded with Dish Home? We buy the latest product and they do not contain the latest features already installed, let alone not even listed for the upgrades. What gives here?? Am I the only person PO'd about this?

Note: I transferred this from another forum thread. Sorry.

[John Corn]

I with Doug E, I can't get either type broadband connection at the moment. :mad:

I would like to have Dish Home on my 721 as well!!!!

[Scott Greczkowski]

So John, lets say you get Starband for your broadband provider because its the only broadband you can get.

You paid all this money because you wanted Starband, and because you heard it on a Tech Chat or Charlie chat that your 721 would work with Starband.

Now the 721 is released and they announce that the 721 will only work with their specific DSL provider only. Since that DSL company does not service your area now the 721 you were expecting to do all with is now just a dual tuner PVR.

Wouldn't you be aggravated?

[Jacob S]

The ones with the top of the line receivers used to be the ones that got the upgrades FIRST, not LAST. Also they mentioned in the past having a receiver such as this one in which would be compatible with Starband.

I also think that we should be able to choose our own isp that we currently use now to use the internet from the receiver. Why pay for another isp just to be limited browsing from a tv when we cannot download songs, etc. Dont they think that we have paid enough already? They went from trying to profit from the pvr fuctions to want to profit from the internet applications.

[rmoore3d]

Scott

When I listened to the chat and heard the statement about the 721 Internet connection only being available through a partnered ISP I was angry and I knew you would be also. I know we have been told not to buy E* products for the promised future upgrades but the ability to connect to a broadband Internet connection was one of the unique features that was talked about from the beginning. That was part of the reason I was willing to pay more for the 721. You have been a great supporter of the 721 and I hope they will at least give you some kind of explanation because I think they would have sold a lot fewer 721s without your endorsement.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I don't think that Echostar owes me an explanation, they owe everyone who purchased a 721 one.

If it was not for the promise of using the broadband connection I would probably have a DirecTivo by now.

BTW for the first time last night my 721 missed 2 recordings. :(

[dlsnyder]

Isn't the 721 the unit they co-designed with Bell Canada? This would all make sense if it were originally intended to work with BCE's DSL network.

[GaryK]

The thing that I miss the most is slow mo and frame by frame. I only heard them mention the 508. Is the 721 going to be done and when?

Internet:
I have cable internet access currently. What is the benifit of linking / browsing on my TV vs my computer? Are there thing that would be better than a PC?

Gary...

[SteveinDanville]

I have just cancelled my 721 order with Dish Depot. Scott, I was mostly motivated to cancel my order because of your clear swing in attitude regarding the 721. From being the paragon of stability to now starting to miss recordings, it must have been difficult for you to have to write those words. You clearly want(ed) this to be a successful, robust, stable product, and now even you are dubious of it's capabilities. To top this, then you find out that only E*-based broadband will be utilized, once that feature is fired up. I get so tired of E*. I am going to now wait for the Ser. 2 DirecTiVo's and probably buy two of them. Let's see, 2 @ $199 vs. one 721 @ $549 ($151 savings). I'll get their top-flight package, similar to what I have now with E*, and I'll have no monthly PVR fee, just a mirroring fee. I've been with E* for 5 years, but have a long history of hardware problems. Why did I think it would get better just because "Charlie's had one in his family room for months now and thinks it's really neat!" The other side of the fence is looking pretty good right now. Sorry, Scott. Let's see what happens with the 721 over the next couple of months; if it gets better, I'll stay. If not, adios.

[Scott Greczkowski]

No the 721 is not available in Canada (Only the 501 is)

Gary,

Internet access will allow you to check mail from your TV, because you have an always on connection with Broadband your 721 will light a light on the front alerting you that you have a new message.

Also you can have instant messaging so you can send a note to the kids from the office to get off the phone because your trying to call.

Plus from your EZ Chair you can check out your favorite DBS site. DBSTalk.COM :D

[Bill D]

I purchased the 721 mainly for it's dual tuner PVR. I was also very intrigued by the idea of using my ISP (as mentioned this was said in previous tech forums and chats) to access email or surf the internet (mainly to check out sites of the show I am currently watching). My PC is in another room, and rather then go in the other room fire it up I thought this would be great. So the internet and UHF remote were big reasons not to switch to Dtivo's (I was close because they had YES net and Dish didn't)
So I will be emailing ceo@echostar to voice my complaint as well.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Folks it's not that the 721 is a bad product. (I must admit I love mine) but when certain features are announced so you buy the product expecting those features, and then after you own the product and then later find out that the features will be there but you need to change to subscribe to other services that were not mentioned before is where I have a problem.

I should not have to change my ISP to use the Internet features of my 721, this is the way the product was introduced and this is the way the product should operate.

[Greg Haynes]

Scott,

I am hoping that Dish is reading this thread and realize what kind of mistake they made by misleading us on to believing any ISP would work.

[DmitriA]

Um, was I the only one that heard Dave say that they are "working to make it work with existing Internet accounts"? He said that right after Mark's whole speech on getting a deal with the nationwide DSL provider...

[Jacob S]

Maybe they would 'prefer' you to use that certain provider's internet service but still allow you to use your own (I hope). Maybe they will have a package deal with the internet combined with satellite service to have a discount (like they tried to do with the internet provider before, where I heard about this on here).

Choosing a certain internet provider will not be an option to some people. This sounds like webtv all over again. I hope they figure this one out. Maybe this is why they wanted to cover up the internet access up on the box with a sticker and did not want to mention too much about it because of this issue. What would the difference be in using your current internet provider and the main one they want us to use? The size of their wallet?

[Bill D]

I sent an email to ceo@echostar and got a standard response, about them forwarding it to the proper people.. Wait and see

[bolco]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
...but when certain features are announced so you buy the product expecting those features, and then after you own the product and then later find out that the features will be there....
I have my Model 7100 Owners Manual here that specifically states that the unit is "Open-TV ready" which will provide me with "future enhancements." I no longer own the 7100 (sold it to Bob Haller) but we all know that the 7x00's are not compatible with Open-TV.

[James_F]

That doesn't say that it will have Open-TV, just that it could...

[larrydj]

I wrote an email to the ceo address, bringing up 2 points: 1) I was disappointed not to hear any mention of the DISHPlayer, of which I still experience bugs (which I itemized), and 2) I had considered upgrading to the 721, but the news that I may have to have THEIR ISP was totally unacceptable, and that this was a deal killer. Within one day, I received this reply:

"Thank you for taking the time to email us with your feedback and questions in regards to the recent tech chat.

We apologize you did not get the information you were looking for on the chat itself. Our engineers are continuing to work software that will help correct some of the issues we have identified with the Dish Player. We have downloaded several versions of software recently and this process will continue.

The internet capability of the 721 will begin once Dish Network has finalized an internet service agreement and we are currently looking at several options. The 721 uses an Open TV browser that will be suited to the internet provider we use. As the tech chat advised, you will not be able to use your existing ISP unless it is the service provider that we decide to use for the 721.

Thank you for providing your comments and suggestions in regards to these issues. The information you have given us will be forwarded to the appropriate departments. If I may be of further assistance, please let me know. Thank you for your time and patience. Dish Network appreciates your business.

Thank you,
Have a great day!
Leslie D. Lisby
Executive Office of Dish Network"

Well, not the answer I had hoped, but a quick and unambiguous reply. I guess the 721's not for me.

Larry

[SParker]

the ISP part is super lame! I doubt I would of used the internet capabilities anyways but dang it, its the principal of the matter!

[Scott Greczkowski]

The internet capability of the 721 will begin once Dish Network has finalized an internet service agreement and we are currently looking at several options. The 721 uses an Open TV browser that will be suited to the internet provider we use. As the tech chat advised, you will not be able to use your existing ISP unless it is the service provider that we decide to use for the 721.

This is the part that gets me all worked up, up until Monday's tech chat it was announced that you could use ANY broadband connection with your 721. This is one the reasons I purchased a 721!!!!

Do charlies engeneers understand that TCP/IP is TCP/IP no matter which ISP you get it from?

If I remember correctly the OpenTV browser is based off the Mozilla browser which will work with any ISP. The only thing I can think of that may be different is they will hard code a Proxy server into the browser and that proxy will be available only to those on a Dish Network ISP.

If this is the case I might just have to hack my unit and remove the proxy.

721 owners should be upset about this. Most national ISP do not even cover 50% of the United States! Give me a break!

[Jacob S]

Is this illegal to say one thing then another? Sounds like a big lawsuit at hand. Its like buying a television set and forcing someone to buy Dish Network, that no other picture will show up on the tv screen. Even webtv allows u to use any internet connection and gives you a discount if you do use your own. If this 721 can be hacked then so can the webtv units to use your own isp strictly? Would it be illegal to hack the 721 to use your own internet provider? What would you actually be stealing if you done so?

[larrydj]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski


Most national ISP do not even cover 50% of the United States! Give me a break!

Worse than that, how many offer broadband too? The chances that you can get a broadband connection from Dish's ISP at your particular location is small. Most people have gone with whatever ISP came with the DSL or cable modem service.

Broadband is what could make the 721 into a killer application: streaming video and audio, piped right into your home A/V, and the 721 being the box to bring this together. DISH is missing a great opportunity.

[Jacob S]

Dish is not thinking about the customer, just about their money filling pockets. They would be better off charging for the access to use that option on the receiver than to use a particular isp. Why should we have to pay for every option that is already on a receiver to use it? Reminds me of being charged for the pvr functions in which they lower the price of the receiver to charge extra for those functions. They better not even dare tell me nor anyone else that they have a lower price on this unit because they are charging for the extra options.

[Bill D]

I also emailed dish about the open ISP and that I hope they wouldn't try to stick with a charge for the keyboard because I just dropped $550, here is the response..

Dear Mr. DiGiovanni,
Your comments have been forwarded and received by the appropriate individuals. At this time, the information we can provide is limited as no final decision has been made in regards to this issue.
The internet service will not be available on the 721 until we finalize an agreement with a service provider. We are currently looking at several different options. The 721 uses an Open TV browser and will be formatted to suit the internet provider we end up using. At this time we do not plan to have the 721 support different providers.
Again, we would like to thank you for the feedback you have given in regards to this issue. Please stay tuned to our chats and information channels for further updates. Thank you again for your time and patience. We appreciate your business.

Thank you,
Have a great day!
Leslie D. Lisby
Executive Office of Dish Network

Doesn't really say anything other then what we already knew..

[Jacob S]

So it looks like that they would have to come up with software to make it work with each internet provider? How would it be so different from one to the next?

[James_F]

Thats the problem, they would have to program it to only work with one. Linux would work with any provider that supported TCP/IP out of the box but for some reason charlie doesn't want to? Maybe he figues he can scam some money out of Earthlink/AOL/MSN/Someothercrappyisp... :shrug:

[Jacob S]

I dont understand, why would they have to program it to only work with one if Linux can work with any provider that supported TCP/IP out of the box? I can understand why Charlie would not want to ($$$)

[larrydj]

Maybe they are thinking of choosing an ISP who would take some of the Internet related support calls. Personally, I agree with Jacob's comment that a better plan would be to charge a nominal fee for using the ISP of your choice.

[James_F]

They shouldn't have to... Why not just enable the lan connection and let the sub decide what to do with it. Dialup is a waste of time... :nono:

[Scott Greczkowski]

I wouldn't pay more then $2 a month extra to turn on my broadband on the 721. I would hack the code myself if it was more then that.

This entire idea of being only able to use Dish Networks select ISP is the SUMBEST thing I have heard from Dish Network in a long long time.

Dan from Echostar I hope your listening.

[LarryH]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
I wouldn't pay more then $2 a month extra to turn on my broadband on the 721. I would hack the code myself if it was more then that.

This entire idea of being only able to use Dish Networks select ISP is the SUMBEST thing I have heard from Dish Network in a long long time.

Dan from Echostar I hope your listening.

I wouldn't pay even $0.50/mo to turn on the internet features of my 721. I've already paid $700 for the 721 ($550 for 721 + $150 for quad LNB) and was told that I would be able to use it with my own ISP. If Dish renigs on this deal, then it's time for me to go somewhere else (screw me once - shame on you, screw me twice...)

[Jacob S]

Well I would not like the idea of having to pay to have the service capability turned on either to use our own isp, and do not think its right, but that is better than paying for two isp's, and better than paying for webtv. This would be the only and first company to come out with something where you would not have to pay out that much extra for using your isp unless they go and charge a big fee for using your own. What did people pay $550 for if we cant use everything that the receiver has to offer?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Again it was advertised origionally as you can use "ANY" broadband service with the 721, they mentioned DSL, They Mentioned Starband, and they even mentioned Cable modems!

I think if they stick to this new plan then they may have themselves a lawsuit :(

[Jacob S]

Yes, lawsuit indeed, there is proof of when they said these things right? Did anybody record those Charlie Chats in which says those things?

[James_F]

Well who wants to pay that kind of money for a PVR which has no benefit over lesser costing ones??? 522 or 721?? Ecostar just made the choice much easier. The 721 must just be a beta test for HDTV PVRs of the future...

[AllieVi]

I hope everyone who supports the merger is paying attention to this and other failures by Charlie to deliver on promises...

[Jacob S]

He will say one thing then do another, so I suppose we can kiss having all 210 DMA's to be up goodbye. Now I dont want the merger to go through. In fine print when you see the commercial about the merger announcement it will say that 210 DMA's are NOT guaranteed, so a lot of them would probably not go up, unless the government made them do it and by a certain amount of time. I think that they should be forced to bring internet access to anyone for a reasonable amount of money, lets say $40 or less a month without having to buy another package to get that and have equipment for an affordable price or a least option of lets say $10 a month. They will have to be regulated on pricing and on their promises. You cant rely on them to do it on their own. This is just a taste of what would come if a merger would occur.

Its just like what Charlie said about the cable companies when they merge or get bought out, usually the service gets even more worse and fewer channels and the prices go up, so Charlie admitted it himself what happens as a result of a buyout or merger.