HR20 - Imagined or Real Problems & Solving Them

[hdtvfan0001]

Now that a few folks who repeatedly complain about their problems have almost succeeded in making those of us with no problems with the HR20 feel guilty, I have been spending some time to try and help "diagnose" the potential source(s).

Having about 20 years experience in working in the software & hardware world, I know that pinning down a performance or problem is not an easy or quick process most of the time - but here are some thoughts.

Facts:

1) Most people are running the exact same HR20 box
2) Most folks are running with the same/current firmware version
3) Most folks are receiving the same D*TV programming (or optional programming in the case of NFL Sunday Ticket)

Variables:

1) Dish installations - Some have 3 LNBs, some have 5LNBs, signal strengths vary, location of the Dish (roof, pole, etc.) and cables connecting the dish vary, as well as proper grounding
2) Coax connectivity and corresponding multiswitches - I've heard from installers that some folks are still using R59U instead of R6U sat coax throughout their house, and numerous defective coax end connectors have resolved problems as well
3) Audio/video equipment - variables include optical, HDMI, DVI, and other connectivity
4) Connectivity/conversion switching - HDMI to DVI cables or through DVI switch, Component via multi-port switch, etc.
5) Projection/TV set connectivity - various versions of HDMI connections and HD presentation units/sets, as well as DVI or component connectivity
6) End user setup/configurations vary - Dolby on / Dolby off, 10880i or 720p HD, etc.
7- Remote Controls units - like any other electronic device, a few have been reported & found to be defective - pushing a button 1000 times won't work right if the button is broken/defective in the remote itself
8) Intangibles - moisture, temperature, etc.

Obviously, there are alot of variables.

If some folks have absolutely no problems (other than a few minor bugs already reported) with the exact same hardware, firmware, and programming as constants, it would appear to first look elsewhere for potential sources of user problems with the HR20.

Using logical diagnostic procedures, there are some basic steps one can take to narrow the source of the problem - examples:

1) If there are reception strength or signal problems - the dish, multiswitch, coax connectors, and the coax cables themselves must be thoroughly checked (not just inspected visually)

2) If there are audio issues, the amp/receiver connections & settings, the cables themselves, and the settings for audio (ie Dolby, etc.) must be thoroughly checked (not just inspected visually)

With complex technology, it only takes 1 weak link to make bad things happen. As I stated earlier, diagnosing the culprit to a problem is not an easy task, and I have found many people only do a quick visual inspection to try and find the source of a problem.

I have now heard of 15 different examples from 4 different installers regarding sources of problems that had nothing to do from the HR20 itself, including one or more of the following - bad or outdated (R59U) coax runs, bad coax connectors, mis-aligned dishes, bad or improper HDMI/DVI cables, defective or incompatible HDMI/DVI switches, defective multiswitches, and defective AV equipment (connections or settings). The classic case is the guy who had D*TV installers out to their house twice because he could not get Dolby surround at all, even though the HR20 was set up properly and all cables were new and proper - only to find out that the user's amplifier did not support Dolby (an older unit). :rolleyes:

If someone has performed try examination and tests to address all of the variables listed above and still have a problem with the HR20, my guess is that you have one of the small number out there of bad boxes. there certainly are some out there - as even with a 98% perfect rate, that accounts for at least 400-500 bad boxes in the market to date.

But before we quickly blame the HR20, or start ranting over and over again about how bad the HR20 might be for a particular user, it would be interesting to see how many of those same people actually do all of the proper diagnostics to first eliminate potential other factors that could actually be the real source of their issues. My guess is that's a very small number. It's much easier to complain first and have someone else figure out your problem.

People like Earl and a few others have spent alot of time with the HR20, and we should appreciate what they do for us to enjoy this great unit. Perhaps if everyone takes the responsibility to do more to determine potential problems up front, we could all be equally enjoying this fine new HD DVR technology to its potential.

[wakajawaka]

This is meant as a joke right HDTVfan? Your mantra that it's not the HR20 it's your inability to understand and use the HR20 is getting real old.

It's the HR20 that has problems for the most part.

Please provide sources for your assertions that only 400-500 boxes are bad. Or at least provide some coherent reasoning as to how you came up with that figure.

[hdtvfan12345]

Yeah - he keeps saying those of us with real problems with this box are:
1. Imagining them
2. User error
3. Don't read the manual

and the list goes on. Let's see - the box can't even handle the time change right for manual recurring recordings! When a user says that, he shoots them down! He thinks just because the box works fine for him, for those who don't they must be complete idiots! This attitude of "the box works great for me therefore those who have legitimate problems are stupid" must stop now!

[hasan]

This is meant as a joke right HDTVfan? Your mantra that it's not the HR20 it's your inability to understand and use the HR20 is getting real old.

It's the HR20 that has problems for the most part.

Please provide sources for your assertions that only 400-500 boxes are bad. Or at least provide some coherent reasoning as to how you came up with that figure.

Geez, lighten up...he didn't say there were only 400-500 bad boxes. He posed a hypothetical that IF 98% of the HR20s in distribution were perfect, that you COULD have as many as 400-500 boxes that were not.

The boxes do appear to have some problems for some people (some major, some minor), but let's not put words in someone's mouth to bolster the case.

[lguvenoz]

Now that a few folks who repeatedly complain about their problems have almost succeeded in making those of us with no problems with the HR20 feel guilty, I have been spending some time to try and help "diagnose" the potential source(s).

Having about 20 years experience in working in the software & hardware world, I know that pinning down a performance or problem is not an easy or quick process most of the time - but here are some thoughts.

Facts:

1) Most people are running the exact same HR20 box
2) Most folks are running with the same/current firmware version
3) Most folks are receiving the same D*TV programming (or optional programming in the case of NFL Sunday Ticket)

Variables:

1) Dish installations - Some have 3 LNBs, some have 5LNBs, signal strengths vary, location of the Dish (roof, pole, etc.) and cables connecting the dish vary, as well as proper grounding
2) Coax connectivity and corresponding multiswitches - I've heard from installers that some folks are still using R59U instead of R6U sat coax throughout their house, and numerous defective coax end connectors have resolved problems as well
3) Audio/video equipment - variables include optical, HDMI, DVI, and other connectivity
4) Connectivity/conversion switching - HDMI to DVI cables or through DVI switch, Component via multi-port switch, etc.
5) Projection/TV set connectivity - various versions of HDMI connections and HD presentation units/sets, as well as DVI or component connectivity
6) End user setup/configurations vary - Dolby on / Dolby off, 10880i or 720p HD, etc.
7- Remote Controls units - like any other electronic device, a few have been reported & found to be defective - pushing a button 1000 times won't work right if the button is broken/defective in the remote itself
8) Intangibles - moisture, temperature, etc.

Obviously, there are alot of variables.

If some folks have absolutely no problems (other than a few minor bugs already reported) with the exact same hardware, firmware, and programming as constants, it would appear to first look elsewhere for potential sources of user problems with the HR20.

Using logical diagnostic procedures, there are some basic steps one can take to narrow the source of the problem - examples:

1) If there are reception strength or signal problems - the dish, multiswitch, coax connectors, and the coax cables themselves must be thoroughly checked (not just inspected visually)

2) If there are audio issues, the amp/receiver connections & settings, the cables themselves, and the settings for audio (ie Dolby, etc.) must be thoroughly checked (not just inspected visually)

With complex technology, it only takes 1 weak link to make bad things happen. As I stated earlier, diagnosing the culprit to a problem is not an easy task, and I have found many people only do a quick visual inspection to try and find the source of a problem.

I have now heard of 15 different examples from 4 different installers regarding sources of problems that had nothing to do from the HR20 itself, including one or more of the following - bad or outdated (R59U) coax runs, bad coax connectors, mis-aligned dishes, bad or improper HDMI/DVI cables, defective or incompatible HDMI/DVI switches, defective multiswitches, and defective AV equipment (connections or settings). The classic case is the guy who had D*TV installers out to their house twice because he could not get Dolby surround at all, even though the HR20 was set up properly and all cables were new and proper - only to find out that the user's amplifier did not support Dolby (an older unit). :rolleyes:

If someone has performed try examination and tests to address all of the variables listed above and still have a problem with the HR20, my guess is that you have one of the small number out there of bad boxes. there certainly are some out there - as even with a 98% perfect rate, that accounts for at least 400-500 bad boxes in the market to date.

But before we quickly blame the HR20, or start ranting over and over again about how bad the HR20 might be for a particular user, it would be interesting to see how many of those same people actually do all of the proper diagnostics to first eliminate potential other factors that could actually be the real source of their issues. My guess is that's a very small number. It's much easier to complain first and have someone else figure out your problem.

People like Earl and a few others have spent alot of time with the HR20, and we should appreciate what they do for us to enjoy this great unit. Perhaps if everyone takes the responsibility to do more to determine potential problems up front, we could all be equally enjoying this fine new HD DVR technology to its potential.


I concur completely with you assessment. Our unit has had relatively few problems since the latest software update, but it definitely does still have some occassional issues. The one thing of note is that the latest problems seem to appear over time and resolve with a reset.

Both myself and the D* installers have checked and double-checked the RG6 feeds, multi-switch, grounds and dish so it appears to be a box issue, but my experience would lead me to believe that it is a cumulative type of anomaly. Maybe to do with the # of shows recorded (100+ recordings recorded and watched per week), or just some poorly written housekeeping process.

Despite my wife's complaints I think the box is very close to being rock solid. It doesn't miss recordings and with the exception of the bogus recording we had last night (resulting in a red button reset and loss of the episode) we have been able to get every show to play back with only a couple of minor glitches (freexing during FF a few times).

[wakajawaka]

Geez, lighten up...he didn't say there were only 400-500 bad boxes. He posed a hypothetical that IF 98% of the HR20s in distribution were perfect, that you COULD have as many as 400-500 boxes that were not.

The boxes do appear to have some problems for some people (some major, some minor), but let's not put words in someone's mouth to bolster the case.

So, it is a completelty meaningless statistic because it's based on nothing. That's MY point.

[hdtvfan0001]

This is meant as a joke right HDTVfan? Your mantra that it's not the HR20 it's your inability to understand and use the HR20 is getting real old.

It's the HR20 that has problems for the most part.
Then I guess you must know more than all of the installers, users, technicians, and D*TV itself, since there is not one fact in existence to support the HR20 being the source of many of the "reported issues" reported here. :rolleyes:

The few limited legitimate HR20 issues are already properly reported and in the resolution queue. If some of these others were, in fact, HR20 issues, they would impact almost if not everyone - and the fact is they don't. :nono:

It's amazing how a few posters here look for every opportunity to utter simple cutesy retorts and perform lame blame on the HR20 without much diagnostic work. It's a sad testimony to the "it's someone else's fault" mentality. :rolleyes:

[hdtvfan0001]

Yeah - he keeps saying those of us with real problems with this box are:
1. Imagining them
2. User error
3. Don't read the manual

Obviously this person did not read the first post here. None of these reasons were listed.

[hasan]

Yeah - he keeps saying those of us with real problems with this box are:
1. Imagining them
2. User error
3. Don't read the manual

and the list goes on. Let's see - the box can't even handle the time change right for manual recurring recordings! When a user says that, he shoots them down! He thinks just because the box works fine for him, for those who don't they must be complete idiots! This attitude of "the box works great for me therefore those who have legitimate problems are stupid" must stop now!

It would be nice if the intemperate rants on all sides would desist as well. I'm not in one camp or the other. I've had VERY few issues in 4 weeks. That doesn't mean there aren't any. There are sooooo many variables to consider (I replied to another post HDMI vs Component outlining how messy the problem really is)

These problems have to be worked through in a calm, rational manner. Getting pissed (at an inanimate object, corporation or other user) accomplishes ZERO. Quite a bit of what hdtv fan offered was solid troubleshooting advice. Take what is valuable from his post(s) and simply disregard the rest. Your blood pressure will thank you.

None of this is easy for the those having major problems. Doses of empathy on one side and restraint on the other are in order.

[hdtvfan0001]

I concur completely with you assessment. Our unit has had relatively few problems since the latest software update, but it definitely does still have some occassional issues. The one thing of note is that the latest problems seem to appear over time and resolve with a reset.

Both myself and the D* installers have checked and double-checked the RG6 feeds, multi-switch, grounds and dish so it appears to be a box issue, but my experience would lead me to believe that it is a cumulative type of anomaly. Maybe to do with the # of shows recorded (100+ recordings recorded and watched per week), or just some poorly written housekeeping process.

Despite my wife's complaints I think the box is very close to being rock solid. It doesn't miss recordings and with the exception of the bogus recording we had last night (resulting in a red button reset and loss of the episode) we have been able to get every show to play back with only a couple of minor glitches (freexing during FF a few times).
Thanks for restoring my faith that there are still some people who understand reality/ :)

[hasan]

So, it is a completelty meaningless statistic because it's based on nothing. That's MY point.

Then make your point, don't misrepresent what someone actually said. There's enough confusion in these threads from the near hysteria some people react with, we don't need to deliberately confuse matters further. (If you'll read my other posts, you will see I agree with many of your basic points....I just don't like some of the tactics.

[ktabel01]

My receiver had ZERO problems until the last two updates. None, nada. No signal problems, no error messages, all recordings perfect, nothing. Same hardware setup on the roof and switches/cables, etc. The 2 updates are the ONLY variable that changed. How's that for pinning down a performance problem.

[hdtvfan0001]

It would be nice if the intemperate rants on all sides would desist as well. .....There are sooooo many variables to consider (I replied to another post HDMI vs Component outlining how messy the problem really is)

These problems have to be worked through in a calm, rational manner.
Thanks for your rational comments. That's where this whole thread started....a clear explanation of the variables involved in diagnosing the potential problems a few are reporting with the HR20. It took 9 minutes for the boo-bird naysayers to jump in with their unfortunate and unfounded retorts. It's also clear those same people didn't read the first post. For some unknown reason, they seemed insulted that the HR20 itself might actually not be the source of everyone's problems (which is a fact). And you wonder why people have this attitude. :eek2:

[hasan]

My receiver had ZERO problems until the last two updates. None, nada. No signal problems, no error messages, all recordings perfect, nothing. Same hardware setup on the roof and switches/cables, etc. The 2 updates are the ONLY variable that changed. How's that for pinning down a performance problem.

Wrong. Passage of time....a potentially VERY important variable. (that in your case I dismiss). Chances are the updates broke something for you in the HR20 (I don't mean physically). From other posts you probably aren't the first to have an update break a previously functioning HR20 (see the HDMI thread)

I think you have pinned down something important and can hope that the next update helps ya.

[iceman2a]

I myself have had very few problems with the HR20, but let's face it, it was released with bugs! No misaligned dish or bad coax or connections, will cause deleted or canceled recordings or system lockups (requiring resets)!

All other issues people may be having with the HR20, I agree, "user error", unable to properly troubleshoot, inflate the negatives, and may not be attributed to the HR20 at all!

[hdtvfan12345]

For some unknown reason, they seemed insulted that the HR20 itself might actually not be the source of everyone's problems (which is a fact). And you wonder why people have this attitude. :eek2:

No, some of us are insulted by your frequent suggestions in other posts in this forum that our problems are the result of "user error", "not reading the manual", and in general suggesting we are clueless! That's what we are insulted by! And you wonder why people have this attitude toward your posts? When you start this thread off with the first sentence saying "Now that a few folks who repeatedly complain about their problems have almost succeeded in making those of us with no problems with the HR20 feel guilty" you wonder why that isn't inflammatory?

[hdtvfan0001]

No, some of us are insulted by your frequent suggestions in other posts...
So you didn't read the first post and are ranting about other unrelated things - I get it. :rolleyes: You're clearly looking for a verbal fight - based on your sub-name and your comments. I see you are a "new poster" wiht the same kind of comments as 3-4 other select naysayers here. We see what you're up to. Now you're on ignore.

Thanks to those with the couple of good/positive comments and observations.

Perhaps those of us with legitimate concerns and efforts can jointly try to help others narrow the source of their problems. Sorry about those distrupters here who try and hijack a thread all the time.

[hdtvfan0001]

Here's an interesting thread on potential problem source # 7 in my original list:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=67124

[hdtvfan12345]

So you didn't read the first post and are ranting about other unrelated things - I get it. :.

Perhaps those of us with legitimate concerns and efforts can jointly try to help others narrow the source of their problems. Sorry about those distrupters here who try and hijack a thread all the time.

I read your first post and your first sentence as I said above. Funny about you talking about hijacking threads. How many have you hijacked when someone posted a legitimate problem and then you post the inane response "I never had that problem so it must be user error". Yeah, that's real helpful.

Pot, kettle, black.

[Alvin Nuckleglazer]

Pot, kettle, black.

kinda like nflnut, hdtvfan12345, sockpuppet

[hdtvfan0001]

kinda like nflnut, hdtvfan12345, sockpuppet
LOL Thanks Alvin. That's why they're all on ignore. I appreciate your observation. :)

[hdtvfan0001]

I myself have had very few problems with the HR20, but let's face it, it was released with bugs! No misaligned dish or bad coax or connections, will cause deleted or canceled recordings or system lockups (requiring resets)!

All other issues people may be having with the HR20, I agree, "user error", unable to properly troubleshoot, inflate the negatives, and may not be attributed to the HR20 at all!
The auto-delete seems to be a random problem that some are experiencing and others are not - it has been reported as a software bug issue (and I believe Earl has indicated its near the top of the pending fixes).

Thanks for your input.

[btmoore]

Here's an interesting thread on potential problem source # 7 in my original list:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=67124

7- Remote Controls units - like any other electronic device, a few have been reported & found to be defective - pushing a button 1000 times won't work right if the button is broken/defective in the remote itself


A new issue that I haven't seen reported yet - got home last night, fired up the box and my remote stopped working after it came on. None of the controls would work.

Did a red button reset and all was well.

Just reporting - anyone else?

Please read what he wrote. His remote was fine he had to reboot the HR20 to make it responsive again. That is not a defective remote, that is the HR20 failing to process commands from the remote. I have experience this same problem twice, once a complete interface lockout and the second only info, guide, menu, list and power worked, none of the navigation buttons worked, again a red button reboot fixed the problem.

There is strong documentation in this forum of repeated problems that many users experience but you are in denial of them. Why do you have such religious fervor about this? Why must you continue to demean those of us who have documented and have evidence of a consistent set of bugs with the HR20. You spout "facts" with no evidence or supporting documentation about % of people who don't read the manual and most of them are tivo users, or percentages of boxes that are bad. Again I ask where is your documentation to support your statements. I can tell you that my cable infrastructure is about as current as it gets, so I am confident that I do not have infrastructure problems, but even if I did have cable issues it would not explain, interface lockups, unwatchable recordings with negative time codes, missing recordings, etc. The only issue I have that one might consider there is a cabling issue is the 771 bug, but many others have that issue, and my other HD box does not have this issue nor has it ever, so since other experience the same issue, and none of my other equipment has the problem the most likely answer is it is the HR20.

Others have a different experience and we have supporting documentation of the issues at hand, perhaps your recording and watching habits are such that you do not experience the same bugs that others and I do. Perhaps others and I have more complex schedules or who knows there could be some kind of marginal hardware and the software is not very solid at exception handling and you are just the lucky ******* that has a good box, but it doesn't change the fact that many of us experience the exact same bugs with their units, D* has pushed a continued rain of patches to deal with defects not features, so those of us who have these problems are on rather solid ground when we say there are bugs in the software. I don't think anyone here is telling you that you have issues with your HR20, no one is trying to force you into saying you are experiencing software issues, just that we are. So please do us a favor and stop telling us that we just don't know what we are doing, you have no idea what others and my background is or what we know hardware, software and our configurations. It is insulting and rude.

[walters]

One variable not mentioned we have discovered anecdotally for the R15 was usage pattern. It's believed that a "power user" will experience a higher likelyhood of problems than a sporadic user.

I know that when I first got my R15 (which I got for the express purpose of kicking it around and seeing if it was as bad as some said), I tried to simulate my normal living room profile (which would be that of a "power user", but the R15 doesn't even hold enough Series Links to really be able to do that). I had so many problems and eventually had to reformat it. Since then I've been running my bedroom profile (which is where it is located)--just a few things recorded to be able to watch before falling asleep. I still see a few issues, but nothing like what I had before.

[lguvenoz]

Thanks for restoring my faith that there are still some people who understand reality/ :)

I believe that a lot of the information on this web site is very frustrating, but it's normal. I know that if I shared my wife's opinions the way she stated them they would rank up there with the worst of the rants we see.

There is definitely a lot of blame game going on in all directions.

I think that D* will get these last few wrinkles figured out and the complaints will go down dramatically. We all will just have to deal with the irrational comments that provide little input to the source of problems.

[Alvin Nuckleglazer]

Please read what he wrote. His remote was fine he had to reboot the HR20 to make it responsive again. That is not a defective remote, that is the HR20 failing to process commands from the remote. I have experience this same problem twice, once a complete interface lockout and the second only info, guide, menu, list and power worked, none of the navigation buttons worked, again a red button reboot fixed the problem.

when you have the lockup remote issue do you give it a few minutes before hitting the reset button? ive noticed a couple of times when ive been in the guide or in the vod section where the remote seems to lockup. sure enough if i let it sit for a minute or two the commands that i pressed happen all in succession.

[btmoore]

when you have the lockup remote issue do you give it a few minutes before hitting the reset button? ive noticed a couple of times when ive been in the guide or in the vod section where the remote seems to lockup. sure enough if i let it sit for a minute or two the commands that i pressed happen all in succession.

There are times when the unit is just slow, for example in the station guide can some times appear to hang, but it is just slow, I think they could do some indexing and hashing here to help with performance. My equipment is in a central AV closet so it require me to be highly motivated to go hit the reboot. :grin: Yes I did wait for quite a while and tried many things before going down stairs to hit the reboot. I can say with confidence that the interface was locked up or partialy locked, but the box was still working as there was still video in the PIP box.

[John Long]

I myself have had very few problems with the HR20, but let's face it, it was released with bugs! No misaligned dish or bad coax or connections, will cause deleted or canceled recordings or system lockups (requiring resets)!

All other issues people may be having with the HR20, I agree, "user error", unable to properly troubleshoot, inflate the negatives, and may not be attributed to the HR20 at all!

I have held off putting in any complaints concerning the HR20 because I feel like I'm just adding to the noise at this point. However, I don't know if I agree that the deleted or cancel recordings are not due to signal issues... I frequently have issues with the MPEG4 local channels, causing either major pixelation or black screen altogether. Up until the recent update, I believe that when the HR20 is recording a channel that loses the signal, it was likely to delete or cancel it automatically. Now, I noticed that it does continue to record it.

I still haven't come to the conclusion that my issues are alignment issues as I don't recall my H20 having the dropouts as the HR20. I do have the B-Band converters installed and will probably try removing them as my next step. However, I noticed that I seem to have more issues at nite than during the day.

So....anyway, my original point is that there are significant bugs out there with unit and it is frustrating many people to different degrees. However, you cannot discount external issues to the HR/20 as well. HR/20 may not handle the result correctly, but the ultimate cause may be outside the HR/20 itself.

My self, I have experienced lockups and deleted recordings. However, I have an SD-Direct TV as a backup so my frustration level is probably a lot less than others.

[hdtvfan0001]

There is strong documentation in this forum of repeated problems that many users experience but you are in denial of them. Why do you have such religious fervor about this?
Again, please read the thread. I, in fact, pointed out that the remote WAS a potential source of the problems in item #7. So we're in agreement - with religious fervor, as you put it.

The remote problems reported are all over the map, from push this button to that button, to this combination fo buttons to no buttons work. I've read about 80 posts myself on the remote, and I think they pretty much fit in one of those slots. That's why my high-level point was the remotes themselves could be a potential source of some of the problems. Again, we're on the same page.

No one ever questioned anyone's skills, background, or experience. The first post simply pointed out other potential sources of problems in addition to or in contrast to the HR20. As others have pointed out, if one chooses to explore those or not, that's there decision. But as others have also pointed out, before rushing to judgment on the HR20 issues a person may have, it might just be prudent to consider and explore other candidates for the problem(s), especially since alot of people do not have the same problems. That clearly points to "environmental" candidates, as listed in the first post. Without checking these, posting complaints, whines, or other opinionated negatives about the HR20 without any diagnostic checking first is like complaining about taxes and then not voting.

the fact that there are scores of people without many if not most of the complaint problems points out there are 2 sides of the coin.

We're trying to help narrow down problems. Complaining alone solves none of them.

[hdtvfan0001]

However, you cannot discount external issues to the HR/20 as well. HR/20 may not handle the result correctly, but the ultimate cause may be outside the HR/20 itself.
Well said.

I'm reminded of the guess many had that heat (internal or external) was somehow the source of all problems. That was proven false.

I hope the next firmware update, along with you checking other potential problem candidates resolves things for you, so you can enjoy your HR20 to the fullest.

[tstarn]

Geez, lighten up...he didn't say there were only 400-500 bad boxes. He posed a hypothetical that IF 98% of the HR20s in distribution were perfect, that you COULD have as many as 400-500 boxes that were not.

The boxes do appear to have some problems for some people (some major, some minor), but let's not put words in someone's mouth to bolster the case.
Hasan, he actually said in an earlier post there were 200-300 bad boxes, using his "insider" calculations. Look it up. Peace brother.

[hdtvfan0001]

Hasan, he actually said in an earlier post there were 200-300 bad boxes, using his "insider" calculations. Look it up. Peace brother.
Old post, older marketplace numbers. Peace brother. :D

[Alvin Nuckleglazer]

There are times when the unit is just slow, for example in the station guide can some times appear to hang, but it is just slow, I think they could do some indexing and hashing here to help with performance. My equipment is in a central AV closet so it require me to be highly motivated to go hit the reboot. :grin: Yes I did wait for quite a while and tried many things before going down stairs to hit the reboot. I can say with confidence that the interface was locked up or partialy locked, but the box was still working as there was still video in the PIP box.

i wonder if it could be an rf issue then? when you go to reboot does the buttons on the front of the unit work or are they locked up too?

[tstarn]

Old post, older marketplace numbers. Peace brother. :D

So you have the actual number of HR20s out there in the marketplace, as well as the failure rate? I didn't realize you and D* were so cozy. Please continue to share your in-depth knowledge of D*'s statistics on the HR20. It's amazing that they put such a strong faith in you as their official spokesperson. Sorry for doubting your D* connections.

[hdtvfan0001]

So you have the actual number of HR20s out there in the marketplace, as well as the failure rate? I didn't realize you and D* were so cozy. Please continue to share your in-depth knowledge of D*'s statistics on the HR20. It's amazing that they put such a strong faith in you as their official spokesperson. Sorry for doubting your D* connections.
I guess that's supposed to be sarcasm.... :rolleyes:

I'm "cozy" with 2 D*TV insiders, as well as 3-4 installer firms in the area. They have plenty of "statistics". If you take the total number of H20 units shipped to date and multiply by 98%, you come up with a number. Not exactly advanced math (thank goodness, because I can't handle it).

Regardless of the specific number, it is a low number. that said, the goal everyone has - users, complainers, satisfied people, and yes, even D*TV itself, is to get to the 99% or better range. You'll never get to 100%, as there are just to many potential variables beyond the equipment itself to control this kind of technology for an absolute guarantee. That holds true on almost any electronic device.

[I wonder how many people heard about the bad 'batch" of 1100 Ipods that hit the market, only to be recalled and replaced via letters. My daughter got one of those. I sure didn't read about it in any newspaper or magazine.]

The one added benefit of hitting the 99% number for the HR20 is that then, almost everyone could equally be spending time enjoying the darn thing instead of complaining. Heeeee haaaaaa. :D

[Wolffpack]

A few observations.


The new AT9 dish and all of it's higher tolerances could indeed be causing or adding to many problems. However, wouldn't H20 users also be having the same problems to the same degree? I know there are issues with the H20s but that "noise" level doesn't seem to be a high.
R15 owners are seeing the same instances of "it works for me" versus "it doesn't work for me". Over the past year, there have been R15 owners that have had no problems. Others have had nothing but problems. Still others have had no problems until update X was released and then their unit stopped working. To me this does indicate more of a pattern in the DTV DVR development/testing culture.
Finally, regardless of the problem source, DTV should be working to solve it. The new dish was released with the higher level of tolerances known. DTV should be looking at all of the items mentioned in post #1 of this thread and working to resolve the problem. If you keep treating the symptoms of a disease without finding the disease itself, you'll never cure the patient.

[btmoore]

i wonder if it could be an rf issue then? when you go to reboot does the buttons on the front of the unit work or are they locked up too?

No not RF it is IR, the entire house is wired for IR, Component and Digital audio distribution and I get a visual queue when a remote control button is pushed from the IR receiver. Each room has a IR receiver, and no it is not the IR distribution system, this system works great and has been in service for 5 years. I did not test the buttons on the unit but I did take the remote into the AV closet and they did not work. This is clearly a software issue, a reboot restores the remote control functionality.

[hdtvfan0001]

A few observations.


The new AT9 dish and all of it's higher tolerances could indeed be causing or adding to many problems. However, wouldn't H20 users also be having the same problems to the same degree? I know there are issues with the H20s but that "noise" level doesn't seem to be a high.
R15 owners are seeing the same instances of "it works for me" versus "it doesn't work for me". Over the past year, there have been R15 owners that have had no problems. Others have had nothing but problems. Still others have had no problems until update X was released and then their unit stopped working. To me this does indicate more of a pattern in the DTV DVR development/testing culture.
Finally, regardless of the problem source, DTV should be working to solve it. The new dish was released with the higher level of tolerances known. DTV should be looking at all of the items mentioned in post #1 of this thread and working to resolve the problem. If you keep treating the symptoms of a disease without finding the disease itself, you'll never cure the patient.

Agree with most of your points. However, D*TV does not control many of the other variables in a home, and cannot replicate them either. Your mileage may vary. :D

[tstarn]

I guess that's supposed to be sarcasm.... :rolleyes:

I'm "cozy" with 2 D*TV insiders, as well as 3-4 installer firms in the area. They have plenty of "statistics". If you take the total number of H20 units shipped to date and multiply by 98%, you come up with a number. Not exactly advanced math (thank goodness, because I can't handle it).

Regardless of the specific number, it is a low number. that said, the goal everyone has - users, complainers, satisfied people, and yes, even D*TV itself, is to get to the 99% or better range. You'll never get to 100%, as there are just to many potential variables beyond the equipment itself to control this kind of technology for an absolute guarantee. That holds true on almost any electronic device.

[I wonder how many people heard about the bad 'batch" of 1100 Ipods that hit the market, only to be recalled and replaced via letters. My daughter got one of those. I sure didn't read about it in any newspaper or magazine.]

The one added benefit of hitting the 99% number for the HR20 is that then, almost everyone could equally be spending time enjoying the darn thing instead of complaining. Heeeee haaaaaa. :D

One observation. A bad batch of iPods can quickly be replaced by a good batch. Not true for the HR20. So I'd welcome the bad batch analogy if the fix were that simple, but the iPod comparison means little to users with problematic HR20s (whatever the cause).

As for the sarcasm, not sure I get your computations. To wit:

Quote:
They have plenty of "statistics". If you take the total number of H20 units shipped to date and multiply by 98%, you come up with a number. Not exactly advanced math (thank goodness, because I can't handle it).

So where do you get the 98 percent who are having no problems figure? Is this supplied by your D* sources, or those 3-4 local installers? I assume in the latter case, they leave after the install and any issues that come up require return visits. But if its either (the source for your 98 percent "good:" figure), reliability is strongly suspect (one is too small a sample anyway, and the other, from D* itself, certainly has a credibility problem).

If you check out Phil Swann's column today, there may be another reason for D*'s HR20 shortage, and it just might have something specific to do with the percentage of users who are having bad experiences. Not sure what the actual numbers of those with problems might be, but there are enough of them for D* to have kept the actual rollout numbers down by limiting supply early in the release process. This way, they could figure it all out before they launched a major marketing effort (and keep the "early adopter"/beta test issues out of the press).

Could happen, no?

[Alvin Nuckleglazer]

last night i had my first remote lockup. was watching mnf and tried bring up the guide and nada. all buttons on the remote werent working. even the buttons on the unit itself were dead, including the power button. mnf was still displaying fine tho. had to do the red button reset. <sarc>i cannot live with this boat anchor! how dare you drectv! i didnt pay 19.95 in shipping and handling to have to get off my couch to press the reset button. </sarc>

[geaux1]

I bet a lot of what the first poster says is true, they are coming out to change my multiswitch and based upon what the guy at tech says that may very well be the source of a lot, but not all, of my problems. But you know I almost cacalled because of this and would have refused to pay the termination fee and gotten in a huge fight with them and bad mouthed them to everyone I know, assuming they fought me on just leting me go scott free 3 months into my 2 year extention agreement, which they may not have, who knows. Now the problem is cable does not have to rewire your whole house and is able to deliver just as good a HD signal, better on the networks without a doubt, and even has a few more channels. Now their SD reception on 8- plus % sucks compared to DTV reception, no ST (but it's getting too high anyway frankly), and their latino tier is junk compared to Directs. So DTV wins but noly so long as they can deliver, but man I am now having to take another day off from work to have a tech come and I am glad they can get here quick, they are nice about it, have given me a lot of crdits for my troubles that go back to the install including free ST and CI and a lot more this year and don;t charge me due to my A status but it's just getting to be too much of a hassle if I can't get the service to enjoy the freebies for the inconvenioence at all you know what I mean.