This is what an early adopter is...

[Stuart Sweet]

Maybe it's just Monday morning or maybe the time is overdue for a rant of my own.

I have been an early adopter for as long as I can remember. When I was younger and didn't have the money to be an early adopter, I would read manuals and tech journals (and later, forums like these) and pretend I could buy the latest and greatest.

I remember soldering together a composite video output cable for my Atari 800 so I could feed it to a VCR and have some record of the artwork I created. That same Atari had an acoustic coupler hooked up to it (some of you young'uns might want to look that term up) through a homemade cable. Not that I had anyone to call, but I wanted to see if it could work.

I bought the very first portable CD player sold in the US in 1986. It didn't have enough battery life to play a whole CD and if you didn't carry it like a waiter carrying a dessert tray it skipped.

I could go on and on. I've had various successes and failures, and picked the wrong horse plenty of times, too. (Does ANYONE else remember the Sega Master System?) I'm sure I'm not the oldest early adopter here but I'm pretty sure that unless there's a 100-year-old ham radio nut on these forums, there have been early adopters for a lot longer than any of us have been around.

My point is that if you are experiencing problems with your HR20 or members of your household approving of it, THAT'S WHAT AN EARLY ADOPTER IS. There have been several threads to the tune of "D* is making beta testers of its paying customers." I say HOGWASH. I'd say worse but it would be edited out by the moderators anyway. You all need to learn the difference between beta testers and early adopters.

Here's the way I see it.

-It's impossible to pretend there haven't been problems, and don't continue to be problems, with this unit. From what I can see they are less severe than the R15 was at this point and more severe than TiVo was in its 1.0 form.

-There have always been problems with hardware and software that need to be addressed once the product is in the wild. The difference is, instead of claiming that's the nature of the beast, D* is actively working on it.

-Unfortunately we are at a point where STBs, especially this one, are so complex that it's very hard to test all the functionality before release. From what I can guess, the complexity of the HR20's operating software is probably on par with early versions of Windows, which were far worse (again, I remember Windows 2.1. What a pile of horse pucky that was.)

-Also unfortunately, the market is so cutthroat that there is simply not enough time for adequate usability testing in pre-release. This is why company after company, including Google, MS and Yahoo, release "beta" versions of software to try to pin down usability and feature issues.

-For those who read the previous and thought, "Yeah, but those guys don't charge for their beta versions", you are correct but you still have to buy the hardware to run them.

-For those who thought, "Yeah, but I'm paying every month for this buggy thing", call Retention. They seem perfectly willing to give you rebates to keep you on.

Bottom line before the flame-fest begins...

I say again, THIS IS WHAT AN EARLY ADOPTER IS. You get to see the products, warts and all, before other people. You pay too much for a product that will probably be free in six months. You deal with spouse issues, equipment issues, customer service issues. You hate tearing your home theater apart for the umpteenth time because it might be an HDMI cable that's causing the thing to hiccup, and YOU HAVE TO KNOW...

but you have to admit that you're doing it because you're a tech head and you're glad to have the toys to play with. I say, STOP WHINING! Let's use this forum to help each other figure out the workarounds and report the bugs, and stop acting like spoiled children.

Let's remember how cool this technology is, even if it would be cooler if it worked right all the time.

[btmoore]

I guess I missed that part about the early adoption program that DirecTV disclosed when I purchased this box and signed up for a 2 year commitment.

Oh that right, there is no early adoption program, there was no disclosure about the HR20 having lots of issues. It has nothing to do with Beta or Early Adoption, I just expect a DVR to Record what I tell it to, play, rr, ff, pause and not crash 99.999% of the time.

[Stuart Sweet]

I guess I missed that part about the early adoption program that DirecTV disclosed when I purchased this box and signed up for a 2 year commitment.

Oh that right, there is no early adoption program, there was no disclosure about the HR20 having lots of issues. It has nothing to do with Beta or Early Adoption, I just expect a DVR to Record what I tell it to, play, rr, ff, pause and not crash 99.999% of the time.

As you go through life you will see this pattern repeated over and over -- early release products are often like this. If this is really the first time you've ever bought a breakthrough product within the first three months of its release, I apologize to you for the problems you're having, as you didn't expect them.

You might want to look inside yourself and ask if you are really the sort who is comfortable buying things so early in the product cycle. There are those of us who expected this and even enjoy the struggle (most of the time).

[hdtvfan0001]

As you go through life you will see this pattern repeated over and over -- early release products are often like this. If this is really the first time you've ever bought a breakthrough product within the first three months of its release, I apologize to you for the problems you're having, as you didn't expect them.

You might want to look inside yourself and ask if you are really the sort who is comfortable buying things so early in the product cycle. There are those of us who expected this and even enjoy the struggle (most of the time).
Yup.

Anyone buy a car in its first year on the market?

Can you say guinea pig? :D

[Chris Blount]

I agree with your post lamontcranston. I have also always been an early adopter (anyone remember the Amiga CD32 game system?). There are ALWAYS problems with new products like this on the market.

My take is that as long as it does its basic functions out of the box, I'm happy. After that, each new bug fix or improvement is a plus.

I wouldn't call the HR20 a revolutionary product. It's more like a rehash but I'm confident that once the bugs are worked out and OTA is enabled, Tivo is history. In its current state right now, I'm pretty happy. The quick reaction time in the menus for me is a BIG plus.

[Stuart Sweet]

I wouldn't call the HR20 a revolutionary product. It's more like a rehash but I'm confident that once the bugs are worked out and OTA is enabled, Tivo is history. In its current state right now, I'm pretty happy. The quick reaction time in the menus for me is a BIG plus.

Revolutionary might be pushing it, but I struggled for the right word to use. I think that it's important to realize that this is a completely new product built from the ground up to have the same UI as other products, probably with a large amount of new code. It performs all the same functions as the R15, plus it decodes MPEG4 (ok, not perfectly), records 3-5x as much data in the same time frame as a SD DVR, and includes hooks for Ethernet, e-SATA and OTA. That's a lot of new stuff (even if it doesn't all work yet).

[tstarn]

I've early adopted many gadgets/software apps, and there have been hiccups, but for the most part, a quick return or download got it going fairly quickly. I remember spending 12 HOURS on with Gateway tech support installing my first multimedia kit in a 133 mhz PC. Guess what? When the 12 hours was over, it worked. And kept working until I junked it. So I know about early adopting, even though I am not a techie by trade.

But this time, the complexity of the product means a fix isn't a simple few quick steps away (or even 12 hours on the phone with tech support), and that's what's causing such consternation among users. I doubt Joe Sixpack who ordered an HR20 had any idea he was an early adopter. Just someone buying a new DVR. I had a hunch there might be a problem or two, but nothing like this... so many complications and variables. Just my POV.

Out of curiosity, I went over to the E* forum to read about the 622, and while there are problems, it seems a lot tamer in terms of the customer hostility. Any ideas? I really don't know the answer.

[mnassour]

I'm sorry, but I can't accept your thesis.

We are NOT early adopters. The high definition DVR has now been around for years, in fact, we've purchased a different version of it from the same company. And please don't tell me that it was actually "made by someone else". DirecTV slapped their name on it and it was DirecTV's choice to jettison that platform and go with a different one. Given that decision by DirecTV management, they at that time assumed the responsibility to provide a box that worked as well as the one they chose to no longer offer.

Shoot even ECHOSTAR can release a box these days that works better than the HR20.

[cookpr]

Early Adopter???????????????

DVR's are a pretty mature product....this isnt some new fangled device. Its D* decision to create their own box versus using the tried and true TIVO, its their decision to use MPEG 2 and MPEG 4 at the same time.

Early adopter is buying a 50" plasma for $20,000 back in 1998...

Buying the HR20 is not considered an early adopter....the product is widely avail and very cheap in the realm of HD DVRs...

As I have said in my other posts, I really like the HR20 and like it more than TIVO, but it needs to be stable and consumer polished.

Kind of like buying a hybrid car and then having it lock up on the highway on you, missing the passenger door, not having the headlights activated so you cant drive at night and only being able to listen to the radio between 1-4 PM...

Just not acceptable....

[hdtvfan0001]

I agree with your post lamontcranston. I have also always been an early adopter (anyone remember the Amiga CD32 game system?). There are ALWAYS problems with new products like this on the market.

My take is that as long as it does its basic functions out of the box, I'm happy. After that, each new bug fix or improvement is a plus.

I wouldn't call the HR20 a revolutionary product. It's more like a rehash but I'm confident that once the bugs are worked out and OTA is enabled, Tivo is history. In its current state right now, I'm pretty happy. The quick reaction time in the menus for me is a BIG plus.
You're take is right on the money Chris!

[Stuart Sweet]

Kind of like buying a hybrid car and then having it lock up on the highway on you, missing the passenger door, not having the headlights activated so you cant drive at night and only being able to listen to the radio between 1-4 PM...

Just not acceptable....

Apparently they had to recall the Prius more than once, and once it was because the darn thing could just stop working on you.

I'm glad my car doesn't run on this DVR's software, but then again, it's not a car, it's consumer electronics. I might be singing a different tune if I had to stake my life to it, but I don't.

[cookpr]

^^I agree, but the 'ONE' recall solved the issues....and maybe there were some additional service noitices that the consumer did not see that fixed minor issues.

But we are heading for what, software update 5?? With no apparent end in sight. Plus, these updates are attempting to fix problems that are very visible to the consumer.

My hope is this weeks update doesnt make things worse like previous updates. My hunch is the next update will be pretty large and probably calm the waters, but who knows. The sooner these updates end the better....

[bonscott87]

Out of curiosity, I went over to the E* forum to read about the 622, and while there are problems, it seems a lot tamer in terms of the customer hostility. Any ideas? I really don't know the answer.


To be fair the 622 has been out now for quite some time. At least 6 months I believe. No idea what bugs and stuff there were on release but Dish is known for pretty buggy receivers at launch. Let's see where the HR20 is when it's the same age as the 622.

I think you see more customer hostility toward the HR20 because DirecTV is replacing Tivo which is causing hatred and vile for some people. Dish never had Tivo so it's just another box in their line of receivers.

If you want another comparison, stop on over to the TivoCommunity for the HR10. Page after page of bug reports and problems that look pretty familiar. Same goes in the regular Tivo forums. Posts that the Tivo S3 isn't ready for prime time and so forth. That's what these forums are, places for people to vent and post their problems. Forums are always that way. Once the HR20 is a mature product we'll see how the forum is and where the product is.

[Stuart Sweet]

^^ The sooner these updates end the better....

Maybe you mean the sooner the need for updates, the better? Surely you wouldn't be happier if D* stopped development now? I'm glad they are working on it. I know Wolffpack had a post a couple weeks ago suggesting that they were pushing updates out too fast, but I am glad to see constant progress.

Before the flames begin "Oh, you call 0xDC progress? That one nutted up my HR20 so bad it nearly cost me my marriage", yes I do. Important stuff was fixed promptly. Sure it could have been handled better but that's true of everything, I'd say.

[cybrsurfer]

I bought the very first portable CD player sold in the US in 1986. It didn't have enough battery life to play a whole CD and if you didn't carry it like a waiter carrying a dessert tray it skipped.

Let's remember how cool this technology is, even if it would be cooler if it worked right all the time.

CD music and players became available in 1983 in the US. :D

[Stuart Sweet]

CD music and players became available in 1983 in the US. :D

You are correct sir. I did know a guy who had this top-loading CD player with no display.. only a window to see the disc spin. This guy was not only an early adopter, he was wealthy.

To my knowledge -- please correct me if I am wrong -- the first portable, battery powered CD player in the US was the Sony Discman, which I first saw in the spring of 1986. It cost me almost a week's pay.

[hdtvfan0001]

Perfectionists have no business even using the term "early adopter", let alone being one. :D

[Alvin Nuckleglazer]

Early Adopter???????????????

DVR's are a pretty mature product....this isnt some new fangled device. Its D* decision to create their own box versus using the tried and true TIVO, its their decision to use MPEG 2 and MPEG 4 at the same time.

Early adopter is buying a 50" plasma for $20,000 back in 1998...

Buying the HR20 is not considered an early adopter....the product is widely avail and very cheap in the realm of HD DVRs...

As I have said in my other posts, I really like the HR20 and like it more than TIVO, but it needs to be stable and consumer polished.

Kind of like buying a hybrid car and then having it lock up on the highway on you, missing the passenger door, not having the headlights activated so you cant drive at night and only being able to listen to the radio between 1-4 PM...

Just not acceptable....

you are confusing early adopters of dvrs to early adopters of SOFTWARE that runs dvrs. in this case its the software that is completely new not the dvr itself.

[tstarn]

Perfectionists have no business even using the term "early adopter", let alone being one. :D

Is that Confucius?

[tstarn]

You are correct sir. I did know a guy who had this top-loading CD player with no display.. only a window to see the disc spin. This guy was not only an early adopter, he was wealthy.

To my knowledge -- please correct me if I am wrong -- the first portable, battery powered CD player in the US was the Sony Discman, which I first saw in the spring of 1986. It cost me almost a week's pay.

http://www.sony.net/Fun/SH/1-21/h1.html

The D-50 was released in November 1984 (check the link). I know, because I bought one.

[hdtvfan0001]

Is that Confucius?
Ahhh sooo.

Nope...but it may be confusing. :D

[Stuart Sweet]

http://www.sony.net/Fun/SH/1-21/h1.html

The D-50 was released in November 1984 (check the link). I know, because I bought one.

Yep, that's the one I bought... I recognize it from the images I found. I stand corrected on the date... I didn't realize it had been out for over a year when I bought one. If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay? I remember mine being $399.

[tstarn]

Yep, that's the one I bought. I stand corrected on the date... I didn't realize it had been out for over a year when I bought one. If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay? I remember mine being $399.

Boy, you have a good memory. I can't remember, to tell you the truth, there have been so many gadgets in between (own 4 MP3 players right now). If I paid that much, it's a wonder I'm not divorced. I actually wrote a newspaper article (in another life, I was a TV critic/home tech columnist) in 1982 about the coming of the CD. Saw my first one that year, in fact. At the time, I was dubbing music from vinyl onto Beta Hi-Fi (remember that?), which could be used as a high-end tape recorder (holding 8 hours of music) if you hooked it up to your amp/receiver. It was a trick the local hifi dude showed me. For years, I dubbed my early CDs (got my first home player, Pioneer in 1984) over to Beta Hi-Fi, then VHS HiFi. I'd try anything, as you can see. Anyway, this is off topic. But I just can't remember the price, but sure it was up in that stratosphere. As I recall, it only worked about 6 mos., but by then, prices started to drop.

[Stuart Sweet]

Boy, you have a good memory. I can't remember, to tell you the truth, there have been so many gadgets in between (own 4 MP3 players right now). If I paid that much, it's a wonder I'm not divorced. I actually wrote a newspaper article (in another life, I was a TV critic/home tech columnist) in 1982 about the coming of the CD. Saw my first one that year, in fact. At the time, I was dubbing music from vinyl onto Beta Hi-Fi (remember that?), which could be used as a high-end tape recorder (holding 8 hours of music) if you hooked it up to your amp/receiver. It was a trick the local hifi dude showed me. For years, I dubbed my early CDs (got my first home player, Pioneer in 1984) over to Beta Hi-Fi, then VHS HiFi. I'd try anything, as you can see. Anyway, this is off topic. But I just can't remember the price, but sure it was up in that stratosphere. As I recall, it only worked about 6 mos., but by then, prices started to drop.

Yeah, I remember those days and did much the same. If you want to PM me we can chat about that old stuff, as I agree this is off topic. BTW the reason I remember the price is that the Discman cost almost exactly 1 week's pay.

[bruno3496]

I would agree if you wanted to be an early adopter... I didn't... I had a defective HR10 that the D* folks sent a local tech out who replaced my HR10 with this HR20. Now instead of a defective HR10 that I had paid 500 dollars for I have an HR20 that loses recordings occasionally and locks up on my hd locals.

Nothing has been able to fix the issue... I didn't want to become an early adopter and I am trying to get D* folks to give me a HR10 box that works instead.

So some of us DO have a legitimate complaint... From the amount of hoops the protection plan folks made me jump through to prove the first box had an issue... To the morons they sent out who did more damage to our install & setup. (Replaced our dish with the new 5lnb dish but didn't secure the bolts... didn't ground the dish... didn't even show up twice...) Now a unit that is a POS and has numerous bugs to be worked out...

I am investigating other solutions for our tv viewing... (DISH or cable)

All the trouble is not worth the pain!!

[paulman182]

I had one of the Sony D-50s also. I was a PD at a rock radio station and boy was that thing cool!

It played the first CD that was aired on our station.

I sold it at a hamfest.

Don't remember what I gave for it, with rechargeable "C" batteries.

[laxcoach]

I would agree if you wanted to be an early adopter... I didn't... I had a defective HR10 that the D* folks sent a local tech out who replaced my HR10 with this HR20. Now instead of a defective HR10 that I had paid 500 dollars for I have an HR20 that loses recordings occasionally and locks up on my hd locals.

You can have my HR10. I'll mail it as soon I'm done surfing the guide for something 10 channels down. Sometime next week sound good?

:lol:


In all seriousness, I bought 2 HR20s the day they were available in my area. I knew I was an early adopter in this product life cycle. Saying "DVRs aren't new" means nothing to this product. It *is* just like a new car. Never buy the first year of a new model.

I haven't had 1 problem with the hardware. The software had/has a couple of bugs, but nothing terrible. It is no worse than the UTV I bought about 3 months after they came out.

[mnassour]

I guess the problem I have with saying we're "early adopters" can be summed up with my ... disgust ... at the fact that buggy software has become the standard for release 1.0 of just about anything in the computer industry, and now since everything is processor based, many of the consumer electronics products we use on a daily basis.

I have a good friend whose car has failed to start repeatedly. He has it towed to the dealership, firmware is flashed, and he's good to go....for about another six months when the bloody thing fails again.

It is completely unacceptable that a stand alone consumer electronics product should need to be updated due to defects in the original software!

It's different when you have a PC/Mac. These are devices that are designed with the expectation in mind that new software will be introduced into their operating systems on a regular basis. But satellite receivers, etc., while computer processor-based, are (or at least should be) designed with one function in mind...to receive, record and play back satellite-delivered video. Once firmware is in place there should (in my ideal world) be no reason to change it.

Yes, I can understand that if a new satellite is launched, then operating conditions have changed and firmware should change to reflect that. But to have bugs in basic record/play/scheduling functions is simply indicative of one of two things:

1. a product rushed to market too soon or
2. sloppy software writers

If it was number one, then DirecTV should have swallowed its bloody pride and continued production of the HR10 until the new receiver was ready...really ready. If it was number two, well, I think we all know how to change that.

But this is a symptom of a mindset in the computer industry that the end user should be the beta tester.

I don't pay to be a beta tester. I pay to watch and record TV. The fact that we (including myself) have willingly purchased a defective product (indeed, have caused it to be a sellout), shows that the current mindset will continue. If each and every person who has leased a HR20 called DirecTV this evening, ordering the company to deactivate the receivers due to these bugs, I can assure you there would be a change in the mindset at DirecTV, and probably at Echostar as well.

Do I seriously expect this to happen....? No. But it would certainly shake up this industry.

[Jolliec]

Problem is that D* is selling this to customers who expect it to work. You're telling me that the average customer who calls and orders D* with HD, has an HR20 installed, knows or cares if this is new or breakthru technology? They just want it to work and they expect no less.

Fact is, it should not have been released to the gereral public in its current or original state, period. It does not work even close to 99%. Maybe 50%. At best it is a beta product. I had 6 shows scheduled over 2 days. So, 6 shows scheduled, 1 recorded, 1 recorded 21 mins (1 hr show), 4 did not record at all.

I cannot believe that people are defending D* by saying that releasing buggy software/products is a normal and acceptable practice. Then comparing it to Windows, etc. If Windows randomly deleted your data files, or did not allow you to open files that you saved, would it be acceptable? No way. Crash once in a while? Sure. But, with Windows, you are dealing with 3rd parties software lssues as well. This is not the case with the HR20. It is 100% theirs.

D* has a major customer relations nightmare on their hands with this release. Can you imagine working the customer service lines?

I knew I was an "early adopter" when I ordered 2 HR20's. I really, really want to like them. They will be great DVR's once they work. But, the HR20 cannot reliably perform even the most basic of DVR functions. I have had to reboot them so many times now I cannot even keep track. In 5 yrs of having other DVR's (TiVo, ReplayTV), I can count the total missed shows between them on one hand. And, those were mostly guide errors.

[paulman182]

If my HR20 worked only 50% of the time, I would certainly be in line for a replacement.

[ktabel01]

If a customer calls D* and wants HD, this is the receiver they get, correct. No " choice" in that regard. No decision to be an early adopter. D* has decided to go with MPEG4, leave TiVO, etc. and should get it right before adoption.

[hdtvfan0001]

If a customer calls D* and wants HD, this is the receiver they get, correct.
NO. If they want an HD DVR, this is what they get. They can get an HD receiver, which is another boc.

[hdtvfan0001]

If my HR20 worked only 50% of the time, I would certainly be in line for a replacement.
Seems fair.

Mine works 99.9% of the time.

[Chris Blount]

Problem is that D* is selling this to customers who expect it to work. You're telling me that the average customer who calls and orders D* with HD, has an HR20 installed, knows or cares if this is new or breakthru technology? They just want it to work and they expect no less.

Fact is, it should not have been released to the gereral public in its current or original state, period. It does not work even close to 99%. Maybe 50%. At best it is a beta product. I had 6 shows scheduled over 2 days. So, 6 shows scheduled, 1 recorded, 1 recorded 21 mins (1 hr show), 4 did not record at all.

I cannot believe that people are defending D* by saying that releasing buggy software/products is a normal and acceptable practice. Then comparing it to Windows, etc. If Windows randomly deleted your data files, or did not allow you to open files that you saved, would it be acceptable? No way. Crash once in a while? Sure. But, with Windows, you are dealing with 3rd parties software lssues as well. This is not the case with the HR20. It is 100% theirs.

D* has a major customer relations nightmare on their hands with this release. Can you imagine working the customer service lines?

I knew I was an "early adopter" when I ordered 2 HR20's. I really, really want to like them. They will be great DVR's once they work. But, the HR20 cannot reliably perform even the most basic of DVR functions. I have had to reboot them so many times now I cannot even keep track. In 5 yrs of having other DVR's (TiVo, ReplayTV), I can count the total missed shows between them on one hand. And, those were mostly guide errors.

If your HR20 is only working 50% of the time, there is definitely something wrong with your unit.

Don't get me wrong. I am not looking to be a D* cheerleader. I am just calling it as I see it from my personal experience. My HR20 has been recording the shows I have asked it to record. On average about 5 timers a day. It did trip up the other day with a partial recording but that should be fixed in the next update.

The other thing you must consider is that Microsoft has had many more years to develop Windows than DirecTV has with DVR technology. Even though DVR's have already been around quite a few years, the overall technology is fairly young.

This has been a very interesting thread. Excellent comments and opinions.

[Jolliec]

Seems fair.

Mine works 99.9% of the time.


You are telling me that it has never had "any" issues other than .1% ? Never hung up, FF stopped working, Stop, pause, all transports stopped working? Would not play recordings, etc? Where do I get one of these "special" HR20's???

I have 2 and they both have multiple issues. One a lot more than the other.

[Jolliec]

[QUOTE=Chris Blount;The other thing you must consider is that Microsoft has had many more years to develop Windows than DirecTV has with DVR technology. Even though DVR's have already been around quite a few years, the overall technology is fairly young.
[/QUOTE]

All the more reason they should not have released it until they were sure. Or, had a 3rd party develop it (TiVo) :)

[hdtvfan0001]

You are telling me that it has never had "any" issues other than .1% ? Never hung up, NO

FF stopped working, NO


Stop, pause, all transports stopped working? NO

Would not play recordings, etc? NO

Where do I get one of these "special" HR20's??? DirecTV

I have 2 and they both have multiple issues. One a lot more than the other.
Sorry to hear that, but mine has been virtually flawless for all scheduling, recording, and playback, including Dolby (as well as FF, REW, etc.)...and I'm not the only way by any stretch...in fact, we're in the majority.

[Jolliec]

Sorry to hear that, but mine has been virtually flawless for all scheduling, recording, and playback, including Dolby (as well as FF, REW, etc.)...and I'm not the only way by any stretch...in fact, we're in the majority.

Then I have 2 bad units. Again, pretty bad. 2 outta 2.

[bonscott87]

You are telling me that it has never had "any" issues other than .1% ?

Never hung up, FF stopped working, Stop, pause, all transports stopped working?

Would not play recordings, etc?



I have had none of those issues, had my HR20 for over 5 weeks now, got mine in the first batch that was released for sale.

The *only* major issue I have seen is the deleted recordings on sports packages because the channel goes dark before the recording is finished. It only happened once and now I do things to avoid it until it's fixed.

Other then that, no troubles. Sorry you haven't had the same.

[btmoore]

As you go through life you will see this pattern repeated over and over -- early release products are often like this. If this is really the first time you've ever bought a breakthrough product within the first three months of its release, I apologize to you for the problems you're having, as you didn't expect them.

You might want to look inside yourself and ask if you are really the sort who is comfortable buying things so early in the product cycle. There are those of us who expected this and even enjoy the struggle (most of the time).

Ok Dr Phil, I don't need to search my soul, hug my inner child, or look inside myself, when I buy a product I expect it to work as advertised. So don't apologize to me about the status of the HR20, why you want to apologize to me for D* quality is a mystery to me, just be respectful that just because you consider yourself an early adopter and have low expectation, doesn't mean I do, I expect products I buy to work and if there are problems the vendor needs to disclose them so I can make an educated choice. If the issues were disclosed I would have been an informed consumer but D* did not disclose any issues, in fact they sold this thing. It is about being honest with consumers, communicating with them and educating your CSR so when they call with problems like this you can get accurate information about the where they are at in solving the outstanding problems. My expectations are based upon the other DVR products I have owned from D*, I would expect this product to execute the basic functionality as at least as reliable as DVR products produced 5 years ago, this product does not as of yet. There is nothing breakthrough about this, it is a DVR, we are not breaking new scientific ground here. The only thing that is new is MPEG4 and that is not new to anyone except D*. The problems with this box are basic and fundamental, it needs to record what I tell it to, and it needs not to crash or lockup. We are not talking about features like dual buffers, I like dual buffers, I wish this box had them, but that is not my problem with D* and the HR20, it is that this box is a bug fest and you cant trust it to accurately record or not lock up. I lost 2 recordings yesterday, a Hogan's Heroes that was unwatchable and Dexter that was missing with a partial history.

[Stuart Sweet]

Ok Dr Phil, I don't need to search my soul, hug my inner child, or look inside myself, when I buy a product I expect it to work as advertised.

You're absolutely right to have expectations about this unit. Of course it would be a wonderful world if everything worked perfectly out of the box. But it simply isn't that way and although I'd love to change a lot about the state of technology, I can't. You can't. We can try to guide things our way, but that's about it.

I wish that everyone, not just consumer electronics companies, did a little more thinking and a little more worst-case scenario modeling before committing to large endeavors. I don't want to go off topic but I'm sure all of us can imagine things that our leaders, friends, coworkers, and ourselves should have thought twice about. Again that's not the point.

The point is, you're here and now, and this is the way HR20 is, it's getting better for most people and obviously some people are having a worse time than others. Ask yourself if you are interested in being part of the solution, finding creative ways to make the thing work now and reporting them to the community. Or, are you looking for a place to complain and someone to call names?

If you're not happy with the thing and you're not up for the quest, return it. You're probably within the 90 day window and if not, call retention anyway, maybe they will work with you. Or just take the financial hit and call it a day.

All I can do is speak for myself and say that I am getting pretty much the experience I expected. I double-record everything on my R10 (though I've yet to miss a recording) and I got full buy-in from my wife before we started with this. So far it's been a bumpy road and that's just what I thought it would be. In the end, if it's a little smoother for others who follow, that makes me feel good about the whole thing.

There are some really passionate people on these forums and I respect you for being one of them.

[Sharkie_Fan]

You are telling me that it has never had "any" issues other than .1% ? Never hung up, FF stopped working, Stop, pause, all transports stopped working? Would not play recordings, etc? Where do I get one of these "special" HR20's???

I have 2 and they both have multiple issues. One a lot more than the other.

I'm another who has had no problems to speak of. Never had the trick play stop working, never had bad recordings, never had to reset with the red button. I have one show that doesn't want to record, for some reason, but it's not what I consider an "important" show, so it doesn't bug me.

There are alot of us on these boards that have had no problems, or very few problems. Granted there are probably twice as many of you posting on here who HAVE had problems.

As to the early adopter theory... I can see both sides of the coin on that one. The state of technology, as it were, is that you can expect to see bugs with a new product. That doesn't make it good, or right, but it's the way it is.

So, on the one hand, there should have been some expectation going in that there would be problems, if you bought the box right after it's release.

On the other side of the coin, there really isn't an excuse for the number of problems that have occured, or the severity of the problems. Even those who went into this expecting to see some glitches aren't happy with the current state of affairs.

And, for those who got forced into it by D*, you kind of get the double whammy. A box that doesn't work and which you didn't intend to get in the first place, but because of circumstances are stuck with it...

All I can say is that under the right circumstances, it appears the box works as advertised. Now it's just a waiting game to see if D* can make the box happy in a wider variety of circumstances... :rolleyes:

[hdtvfan0001]

Then I have 2 bad units. Again, pretty bad. 2 outta 2.
Actually, I have 2 good HR20 units - both the same, and no problems since day one. Again, I know some folks have not had the same luck, but usually, you only hear from the ones with problems as opposed to those with things going along fine. I hope your issues are corrected soon, maybe with the next firmware update coming up soon....

[perilous]

I'm sorry, but I can't accept your thesis.

We are NOT early adopters. The high definition DVR has now been around for years, in fact, we've purchased a different version of it from the same company. And please don't tell me that it was actually "made by someone else". DirecTV slapped their name on it and it was DirecTV's choice to jettison that platform and go with a different one. Given that decision by DirecTV management, they at that time assumed the responsibility to provide a box that worked as well as the one they chose to no longer offer.

Shoot even ECHOSTAR can release a box these days that works better than the HR20.

THANK YOU!!! Been out of town and just started reading this thread and couldn't believe this "early adopter" crud!!! As one of the originators of an unexpected "beta tester" thread and a regular VOLUNTARY Tivo beta tester, this HR-20 fiasco is nothing like "early adoption" -- this is a replacement product to older technology just simply not ready for "prime time"!!! :nono2:

[perilous]

Early Adopter???????????????

DVR's are a pretty mature product....this isnt some new fangled device. Its D* decision to create their own box versus using the tried and true TIVO, its their decision to use MPEG 2 and MPEG 4 at the same time.

Early adopter is buying a 50" plasma for $20,000 back in 1998...

Buying the HR20 is not considered an early adopter....the product is widely avail and very cheap in the realm of HD DVRs...

As I have said in my other posts, I really like the HR20 and like it more than TIVO, but it needs to be stable and consumer polished.

Kind of like buying a hybrid car and then having it lock up on the highway on you, missing the passenger door, not having the headlights activated so you cant drive at night and only being able to listen to the radio between 1-4 PM...

Just not acceptable....

AGREED!! See post above....

[btmoore]

I am hoping to close the disconnect

Of course it would be a wonderful world if everything worked perfectly out of the box.

I don’t think things have to per perfect, but the core functionality should be solid. For example, record and not crash with 99.999% reliability is required, but the goofy bug where you have to turn DD off to turn DD on is a non critical bug and is much more tolerable.

I wish that everyone, not just consumer electronics companies, did a little more thinking and a little more worst-case scenario modeling before committing to large endeavors. I don't want to go off topic but I'm sure all of us can imagine things that our leaders, friends, coworkers, and ourselves should have thought twice about. Again that's not the point.

I assume you mean that they need to produce rigorous testing criteria and not doing so it bad business. If that is what your are saying then we agree there is no excuse for a box like this to have this poor of testing.

The point is, you're here and now, and this is the way HR20 is, it's getting better for most people and obviously some people are having a worse time than others. Ask yourself if you are interested in being part of the solution, finding creative ways to make the thing work now and reporting them to the community. Or, are you looking for a place to complain and someone to call names?

If you're not happy with the thing and you're not up for the quest, return it. You're probably within the 90 day window and if not, call retention anyway, maybe they will work with you. Or just take the financial hit and call it a day.

I don’t know how long you have had your box, but I have gone thru multiple software release each while perhaps fixing some bugs they have introduced more and at times worse defects and the box still has many serious bugs.

This is not some exercise in ZEN, quest for knowledge or search for happiness, it is an attempt to get my DVR working. Perhaps you don't realize it, but the way I read your postings, is basically accept what D* has produced, be happy about it, and shut up unless you have a half full glass even when it is close to empty, except is wrapped in therapy speak so it comes off more passive aggressive. Honestly I find it very demeaning. Perhaps I went too far with the Dr Phil comment but your response was getting very touchy feely and I was trying to be funny.

The way I decide to express my frustration with D* and my desire to share my problems with the box and confirm the issues I am seeing with others is my business and not yours. I have never said if you are not having problems you must be wrong or are making it up, yet when myself and others post and document problems, folks like you try to make excuses, try to justify it by telling me I should expect this kind of thing and honestly I don't need you to tell me I am an early adopter, I am not I am a customer of D*. You decided to post your manifesto about "This is what an early adopter is... " my point is, you may feel this way, but I don't and from what I have read there are other that feel the same way too.

[hdtvfan0001]

If someone doesn't want to be an ealry adopter, than perhaps they shouldn't get the product as soon as 60 days after first introduction. :rolleyes:

I've been an early adopter on dozens of pieces of new technology, and the HR20's release has been worth a Nobel prize compared with those other things. That's not to discount any problems people may have (or think they have).

If you get anything...a new model car, a new kind of HDTV, a new digital camera....almost anything that's been out on the market less than perhaps 6 months, you are an early adopter whether or not you want to be or think you are. :eek2:

This thing has been out about 2 months. Let's get real here.

[mnassour]

If someone doesn't want to be an ealry adopter, than perhaps they shouldn't get the product as soon as 60 days after first introduction. :rolleyes:

I've been an early adopter on dozens of pieces of new technology, and the HR20's release has been worth a Nobel prize compared with those other things. That's not to discount any problems people may have (or think they have).

If you get anything...a new model car, a new kind of HDTV, a new digital camera....almost anything that's been out on the market less than perhaps 6 months, you are an early adopter whether or not you want to be or think you are. :eek2:

This thing has been out about 2 months. Let's get real here.

There's not a thing there I disagree with, sir. The problem is....that it shouldn't be that way!

With all due respect, it seems to me that you are willing to accept the fact that products are shoved down the pipeline with software in a half-finished state just for the sake of getting them on the shelves before Brand X can get its box out. I've got a real problem with the concept that this kind of marketing is acceptable.

I knew DishNetwork was infamous for pulling this kind of stunt. I suffered through the early 4000s and DishPlayers as Dish and Microsoft tried revision after revision after revision in an effort to make them work. The early Dishplayer was what drive me to DirecTV and I never looked back. I bought Ultimate TV and ... it just worked! Yes, we had to wait for a software download to get dual tuners enabled, and no one liked that. But overall, it was a MUCH better experience than Dish, with features being added by downloads, rather than downloads being a desperate attempt to correct previous errors.

Even when I went to the DirecTivo the boxes were stable.

Now...I feel like I'm piloting a Dish 721 during its launch.

I know why products are released with half-baked software. But that doesn't make it....right!

[Sharkie_Fan]

With all due respect, it seems to me that you are willing to accept the fact that products are shoved down the pipeline with software in a half-finished state just for the sake of getting them on the shelves before Brand X can get its box out. I've got a real problem with the concept that this kind of marketing is acceptable.

I agree with you as to the fact that it's wrong, it's stupid, it's irritating, and on and on and on.

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is that this is the way things are. Right or wrong, good or bad, it's the way of the world and there isn't really anything we can do bug accept the fact.

[brewer4]

You are telling me that it has never had "any" issues other than .1% ? Never hung up, FF stopped working, Stop, pause, all transports stopped working? Would not play recordings, etc? Where do I get one of these "special" HR20's???

I have 2 and they both have multiple issues. One a lot more than the other.

No problems here. I got mine at ValueElectronics begin September.

As for the thread, I see both sides. As a consumer and given there is high demand for this unit, you would have hoped it was more stable out of the box. However, I got it knowing that it wouldnt be 100% out of the box and I have my HD Tivo's doing the heavy load. Should everyone have to have a backup unit, no but my expectation was risk.

Risk there would be issues with the unit, risk knowing there would be fixes, risk knowing that OTA would not be avail immediately (I read the reviews first), risk that MPEG4 is still way too new and my H20 showed issues in 1080i locals, risk in DVR that was NOT written by Tivo developers. So I approached this as an early adopter as I know the term. I certainly am. Heck I have a 64 bit Vista MCE with Xboxs connected. Thats risky.

But given the risks, I took a chance and I am more then happy with the results. I have a couple clunky things I would like to change but overall, if I say record, it records. When I say change channels or playback something, it does. I really do think the developers did a good job. I think there is something defective in several units related to the hardware. Or, there is something very specific about their configurations that are causing the issues. Should they all be gone before release? Thats the debate. If I had a dud and it was my only unit, I guess my attititude would be different but folks gotta realize this.

HD is still relatively new. MPEG4 HD is definately new stuff. This thing is a complex box doing things hardware couldnt do 4 years ago. Its amazing how far we've come. I say give it some time, expect things not to fully work, and send those units back that are not working. :eek2:

[jdwatson]

Sometimes, I'm an early adopter like when I have a command of the underlying technology, a part of the steering group & etc. Sometimes, I'm not.

However, I've always had a choice... I've been *asked* if I want to be a part of early rollout... I was never asked by D*. Now, I'm stuck. The installer threw *my* dish off the roof at installation time of the new AT9. I guess he presumed it was leased equipment. It was not.

I don't whine about mistakes that I've made. I do whine about mis-representation and poor service when I don't have recourse. What else can I do ?

[Jolliec]

No problems here. I got mine at ValueElectronics begin September.



Maybe the people NOT having issues don't use their DVR's as often ,or not in the same manner. I just don't get why if we are all runing the same builds, why do some see the very same issues, and others seem to work perfectly? Is it possibly that they have not encountered issues because of some sequence of events that leads up to it? I understand about different HDMI/Component connections, signal strenght, etc. but is that causing transport issues, lockups, partial recordings, IR to stop responding, etc. I have 80-90% signal, and yes, on clear days I still have problems. So what gives? If not, why do they somehow not have the same problems?

[christo76]

If someone doesn't want to be an ealry adopter, than perhaps they shouldn't get the product as soon as 60 days after first introduction. :rolleyes:

I've been an early adopter on dozens of pieces of new technology, and the HR20's release has been worth a Nobel prize compared with those other things. That's not to discount any problems people may have (or think they have).

If you get anything...a new model car, a new kind of HDTV, a new digital camera....almost anything that's been out on the market less than perhaps 6 months, you are an early adopter whether or not you want to be or think you are. :eek2:

This thing has been out about 2 months. Let's get real here.

I am not normally an early adopter. I read about the HR20 coming out... and about the deals on Hr10 for cheap with sunday ticket. I jumped on it. I asked when i ordered if I would get the HR20 or HR10. I was told that it would be the HR10 because the new ones wouldn't be available for awhile. I read some more and saw people were finding out that if their order stated it one way, it meant they were getting the HR20. Mine didn't, but I called anyways and was told again that I couldn't get the new one even if I wanted because they weren't even available yet.

Then when I heard that Best Buy had them... and I was still waiting for my install. I called again to verify I would get the HR10, especially now that I new it didn't have dual buffers or OTA, and I just spent several hundred on a new antenna. Once again was told it wasn't possible because the Best Buy is the only place allowed to have them and I didn't order it from them.

Then my installer comes, and has an HR20. I called and bitched, ask for customer retention and explained it to them. Was told that now that I already commited to Sunday Ticket and it was the monday after opening day, that I could cancel but I wouldn't get my money back. Asked if I could buy an HR10 from a Best Buy and get it credited off my account. Was told no initially... then eventually was told, yes, but they would only give me $200 and I would have to foot the other $200 on my own.

So, for the earlier examples, I suppose if Sony forced you into a new CD player that skipped and weighed a tone, when you just wanted a tape player that worked.... or better yet, you want to buy the proven Camry but after you pay, they switch you to a first off Prius and say tuff you are stuck with it.

Early Adopters??? HOGWASH (Insert harsher term here)

[brewer4]

Maybe the people NOT having issues don't use their DVR's as often ,or not in the same manner. I just don't get why if we are all runing the same builds, why do some see the very same issues, and others seem to work perfectly? Is it possibly that they have not encountered issues because of some sequence of events that leads up to it? I understand about different HDMI/Component connections, signal strenght, etc. but is that causing transport issues, lockups, partial recordings, IR to stop responding, etc. I have 80-90% signal, and yes, on clear days I still have problems. So what gives? If not, why do they somehow not have the same problems?

Definately not a primary workhorse but I tape about 2-3 programs a night, use it for most if not all my sports, and is the primary NFL Sunday Ticket box. I use component so maybe thats the issue but I do have an HDMI connection to DVI that I use periodically on one of my TV's. I actually used the HDMI to DVI method on Sunday. No issues. It is really really weird the vast differences in performance.

[Sharkie_Fan]

Maybe the people NOT having issues don't use their DVR's as often ,or not in the same manner. I just don't get why if we are all runing the same builds, why do some see the very same issues, and others seem to work perfectly? Is it possibly that they have not encountered issues because of some sequence of events that leads up to it? I understand about different HDMI/Component connections, signal strenght, etc. but is that causing transport issues, lockups, partial recordings, IR to stop responding, etc. I have 80-90% signal, and yes, on clear days I still have problems. So what gives? If not, why do they somehow not have the same problems?

Therein lies the crux of our problem. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to why one box works and one doesn't. Obviously there are some variables that the HR20 isn't handling properly, but what exactly are those variables. Signal strength? Which connections you use? Which direction your receiver faces? Whether you use your left hand or your right hand to turn it on?

Who knows. There's talk that some have better luck with component connections instead of HDMI, but for every one of those, there's someone else who is using HDMI without problems.

I'm not an engineer or anything like that, but I have trouble grasping how identical boxes with identical software builds can behave SOOOOO differently...:rolleyes:

[Twosted]

Maybe the people NOT having issues don't use their DVR's as often ,or not in the same manner. I just don't get why if we are all runing the same builds, why do some see the very same issues, and others seem to work perfectly? Is it possibly that they have not encountered issues because of some sequence of events that leads up to it? I understand about different HDMI/Component connections, signal strenght, etc. but is that causing transport issues, lockups, partial recordings, IR to stop responding, etc. I have 80-90% signal, and yes, on clear days I still have problems. So what gives? If not, why do they somehow not have the same problems?

My theory and belief is the issues revolve around two areas. HDMI and MPG4 locals. With respect to HDMI, obviously not everyone is going to own the same TV. Also there is no way D* would be able to check or predict how different manufactures TV's are going to react when the HR20 is connected to them via HDMI and vice versa. I have a SONY KDF series TV and haven't had HDMI issues. As for the MPEG4 locals, a lot of markets have just got theirs in the past couple of months. I know when I first got mine about a year ago via the H20, they were terrible. Lip sync issues, dropped audio, pixelation, loss of signal etc.. Now throw in a new DVR trying to record programs on channels with these issues and you have a huge headache. Again D* techs working with the HR20 would have no way of knowing how the HR20 would react. Now if your TV has HDMI compatibility issues and crappy MPEG4 locals you will basically have one of the worst experiences you can imagine. And I know some of you aren't imaging it you are actually living it. As for me, it took D* about 10 months to get my MPEG4 locals working correctly. Couple that with the fact I have no HDMI issues and you get an HR20 experience that has been virtually trouble free. I don't know if I am correct or not. I am just trying to find an explanation for why some of us have had little to no problems while others have a decorative silver brick with blue lights. Hang in there guys, it can only get better. (I hope)

[FreeBaGeL]

-Also unfortunately, the market is so cutthroat that there is simply not enough time for adequate usability testing in pre-release.

I used to work in quality assurance for software and hardware. This is the issue at hand. The point about it being complex and difficult to test is pure hogwash. The issue is that they needed to get this thing out there quickly, the same way that blu-ray's launch was so weak. That's not to throw any blame at D* for doing so, at this point many companies are doing the same thing.

As you go through life you will see this pattern repeated over and over -- early release products are often like this. If this is really the first time you've ever bought a breakthrough product within the first three months of its release, I apologize to you for the problems you're having, as you didn't expect them.

You might want to look inside yourself and ask if you are really the sort who is comfortable buying things so early in the product cycle. There are those of us who expected this and even enjoy the struggle (most of the time).

This is the point that I think you are missing, and the thing that invalidates nearly your entire post. Most people don't know they're getting a buggy, early release product. Just for kicks I went through the D* online ordering process. Not once was the word HR20 mentioned. It simply says "would you like to pause and rewind live tv, record your shows, etc." It makes absolutely no mention of the HD-DVR being new, being buggy, nothing. People buying a 30k car know when it's the first model year for the car. People buying blu-ray know it's cutting edge technology that is on its first generation. DVRs (even HD-DVRs) are nothing new, they're not cutting edge technology. DVRs have been around a while now, even within directv. This is not a first generation thing.

Granted, in general that gets met with a response like "well that person should've done their research". And again, a thousand dollar blu-ray player in a format war is something even the average consumer will take some time to research, but when J6P gets casually asked if he wants a DVR during the checkout process and replies "sure, why not" he just expects it to work. DVRs have been out there long enough now that people just expect them to work.

Simply put, early adopters can expect all kinds of bugs and kinks with their new technology, that comes with the territory. The problem is that many are being thrust into the early adopter role without knowing it.

If someone doesn't want to be an ealry adopter, than perhaps they shouldn't get the product as soon as 60 days after first introduction. :rolleyes:

I've been an early adopter on dozens of pieces of new technology, and the HR20's release has been worth a Nobel prize compared with those other things. That's not to discount any problems people may have (or think they have).

If you get anything...a new model car, a new kind of HDTV, a new digital camera....almost anything that's been out on the market less than perhaps 6 months, you are an early adopter whether or not you want to be or think you are. :eek2:

This thing has been out about 2 months. Let's get real here.

Even tossing aside the notion that many people didn't know they were getting a brand new product, those are still very poor analogies. For starters, I've bought several cars, digital cameras, and an HDTV and never experienced this many problems this early in their life cycle.

But the main point is the types of bugs we're talking about here. With the types of products you mentioned the bugs are fixable things that only vary from case to case, not that fail to do their primary function as a built-in bug that is not fixable. You might get an HDTV that has geometry issues, or light leakage, or several other things. And it will be immediately replaced for you. There has never been a case where a TV would not turn on some days but the consumer was told "yeah that's a bug we're working on, you'll just have to deal with it until we figure out how to get these things to show a picture on the screen every day." I have never had a digital camera that wouldn't take pictures or deleted pictures on occasion after taking them and be told "yeah that's a kink in that model camera, we're hoping to upgrade the firmware so your camera won't delete the pictures after you take them." Yet here many are, with a digital video recorder that often won't record or deletes recordings being told "yeah we're working on a bug where sometimes your digital video recorder won't digitally record video".

If this were a scenario where people were getting HR20's in the mail and the hard drive was bad or the power supply was bad and could send them back and get a perfectly working replacement that would be more akin to the analogies you are making with TVs and cameras.

[hasan]

Simply put, early adopters can expect all kinds of bugs and kinks with their new technology, that comes with the territory. The problem is that many are being thrust into the early adopter role without knowing it.

That is precisely correct on both counts. Like it or not, we ARE early adopters, and many appear not to have known it. (and as you accurately point out, D* was in no hurry to advise them if it)

Caveat Emptor!

p.s.

As a "knowing" early adopter, I'm very pleased with my HR20 so far. If I had experienced the host and variety of issues that some have, I wouldn't be so pleased, and even less so if I had shelled out a bunch of bucks for it (I didn't).

[christo76]

That is precisely correct on both counts. Like it or not, we ARE early adopters, and many appear not to have known it. (and as you accurately point out, D* was in no hurry to advise them if it)

Caveat Emptor!

p.s.

As a "knowing" early adopter, I'm very pleased with my HR20 so far. If I had experienced the host and variety of issues that some have, I wouldn't be so pleased, and even less so if I had shelled out a bunch of bucks for it (I didn't).

Yes, buyer beware....

Beware that DirecTV will not inform you of what you are getting untill its too late. Beware that DirecTV will tell you are NOT getting a new release item that will have bugs.


Caveat Emptor has more application to areas where you can research and learn which item you want and go into a purchase fully informed.

With the HR20 they did not allow you that chance. I was informed of many of the issues people where having and some of the issues that were purely designed by DirecTV (Dual Buffers, OTA), and I did everything humanly possible to ensure I did NOT get the HR20 because I did NOT want to be an early adopter. But was forced to be one by DirecTV.

What would you say if you went to buy a fully loaded car, power everything, cd changer..... And then after you paid your cash, they handed you the keys to entry level vehicle, cassette deck, am only radio. Then told you that you had to deal with it, and they were looking into the possibility of added a CD player in the future and power windows currently require you hold the button for 3 seconds exactly to close. OH yeah, and sometimes the car shifts into Park while on the highway.

Caveat Emptor would have no place then, as it has no place here.

[iceman2a]

Yes, buyer beware....

Beware that DirecTV will not inform you of what you are getting untill its too late. Beware that DirecTV will tell you are NOT getting a new release item that will have bugs.


Caveat Emptor has more application to areas where you can research and learn which item you want and go into a purchase fully informed.

With the HR20 they did not allow you that chance. I was informed of many of the issues people where having and some of the issues that were purely designed by DirecTV (Dual Buffers, OTA), and I did everything humanly possible to ensure I did NOT get the HR20 because I did NOT want to be an early adopter. But was forced to be one by DirecTV.
What would you say if you went to buy a fully loaded car, power everything, cd changer..... And then after you paid your cash, they handed you the keys to entry level vehicle, cassette deck, am only radio. Then told you that you had to deal with it, and they were looking into the possibility of added a CD player in the future and power windows currently require you hold the button for 3 seconds exactly to close. OH yeah, and sometimes the car shifts into Park while on the highway.

Caveat Emptor would have no place then, as it has no place here.

Installer knocks on your door, comes in with a HR20 in one hand and a GUN in the other?????

No one forced you to accept the thing!! Easy as saying "Take it back, I don't want that DVR"

[tstarn]

Yes, buyer beware....

Beware that DirecTV will not inform you of what you are getting untill its too late. Beware that DirecTV will tell you are NOT getting a new release item that will have bugs.


Caveat Emptor has more application to areas where you can research and learn which item you want and go into a purchase fully informed.

With the HR20 they did not allow you that chance. I was informed of many of the issues people where having and some of the issues that were purely designed by DirecTV (Dual Buffers, OTA), and I did everything humanly possible to ensure I did NOT get the HR20 because I did NOT want to be an early adopter. But was forced to be one by DirecTV.

What would you say if you went to buy a fully loaded car, power everything, cd changer..... And then after you paid your cash, they handed you the keys to entry level vehicle, cassette deck, am only radio. Then told you that you had to deal with it, and they were looking into the possibility of added a CD player in the future and power windows currently require you hold the button for 3 seconds exactly to close. OH yeah, and sometimes the car shifts into Park while on the highway.

Caveat Emptor would have no place then, as it has no place here.
Beautiful analogy. Getting tired of all this soothing, it's just the way it is psychobabble. This situation has got nothing to do with early adoption. Buying the first IBM PC, that's early adoption. Paying through the nose for the first plasma set, that's early adoption. Buying the first digital camera, early adoption. The HD DVR is not a new product, and no one wants to hear about the MPEG4 introduction. D* chose that route, so they should have been ready. They can't even get the R15 right. More early adoption? Not based on the issues over in those forums. In the words of the great Yogi Berra, it looks like Deja Vu all over again. Software download after software download, one problem solved, another launched, and no relief in sight.

[tstarn]

Installer knocks on your door, comes in with a HR20 in one hand and a GUN in the other?????

No one forced you to accept the thing!! Easy as saying "Take it back, I don't want that DVR"

I'm guessing your HR20 has performed admirably. But I'm sure if yours started having major problems, say after the next download, you'd just pack it up, ship it back, and go back to whatever you did before. Not a complaint or a whimper. You'd just take it and like it. If that's the case, I respect your path. But some people want theirs to work, and felt they had no real choice at this point, having invested time and money (mostly time) in dishes, phone calls to tech support, etc. When their HR10s went south, they had to take an HR20 or nothing.

Sooner or later, though, you will be right. If it doesn't get fixed for everyone, people will start shipping it back and dumping D* (after they have to threaten them with litigation if they try to collect cancellation fees), because they will have no choice. FIOS, cable, E*, whatever their flaws, have an HD DVR that works reliably for most of their customers, even if theirs can't store 50 hours of HD programming. For now, people just want a working DVR, without having to tear up their home entertainment situation. Later, they will make a move if the HR20 problems persist. They'll have to.

[christo76]

Installer knocks on your door, comes in with a HR20 in one hand and a GUN in the other?????

No one forced you to accept the thing!! Easy as saying "Take it back, I don't want that DVR"

You are right, and thats what they said... with the adder of "oh and we are keeping your money, and if you want to get an HR10 go ahead and pay another $400"

Lets say you went and bought a new computer and it came with a free 26" monitor and color printer, but when you got it home you find the monitor is actually a 10" monochrome and the printer is a typewriter. But when you go back to the store they tell you, you are stuck with the 10" and typewriter unless you want to pay another $400 for the 26" monitor and printer. Either way, they are keeping the money you paid for the computer.

You would just say thank you sir, I assume?

[Stuart Sweet]

I started this post because I was tired of the whining. Not surprisingly, I seem to have inspired a lot of whining.

I will certainly grant that some of you have had some real issues. To the gentleman who was dead set on an HR10 but got an HR20, you sir have very valid grievances. To those who feel their DVR's work less than 50% of the time, I really see why you're angry. I would be too.

I haven't had nearly the bad experiences with this product that you have, and I really, really, don't mean to belittle them. You have every right to be angry and vent that anger any way that you think is appropriate. I encourage you to be as angry as you want, here or at Customer Service.

For those who are new to the experience -- I hesitate to use the term "early adopter" since some of you treat those as dirty words -- Just think about whether or not you want to do this again. This is a pretty average experience for new consumer electronics at this level. Average, meaning half are better, half are worse.

Many of us who have had this sort of experience know what we are in for, and while we're frustrated, we're not surprised. Speaking for myself, I am not, as some suggest, interested in standing by while D* performs lewd acts upon me, followed by my thanking them. I've called Customer Service a couple of times and let them know how I felt and it wasn't pretty.

All I'm saying is, I would rather see a spirit where we're in this together, we find the quest interesting, we find satisfaction in finding new workarounds and undocumented features, and overall, as I said in the original post, whine less.

One more time, if that's not you, just return the thing! Let D* know that you're done with bad products and worse service and just move on.