$199 Lindows-based PC

[MarkA]

Take a look at this folks - http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,468924,00.asp !

This is, while certainly not likely to be a good system, a great deal for newbies. A computer for less than the cost of a copy of Windows XP Professional (priced at $299 retail for a full copy)!

[gcutler]

I still have not seen Lindows in action. I went to their web site and they wanted $99 to join the society of which one benfit is getting the SW.

But if Lindows is close enough to Windows, then that sounds like a good option.

Part of it is the neighbor factor, It might be worth an extra $200 so that I can ask my neighbor how to fix something because they are 5% more litertate in Windows than I am. But if Lindows is different enough where they need to hunt someone down for help on moving a file it will be a problem. Where is that FREE copy of lindows so I can "Evaluate it" :D

I wonder how long a $199 computer is expected to last. My assumption is that the PC will not be running 3-4 years later like the $600 entry level computers might (or might not) Maybe it is like some of those new Battery Powered Tooth brushes, when the brush wears out, just throw it out and but another one. Maybe $199 every 2 years isn't tooo bad for most people?

[MarkA]

It SHOULD last as long as any other PC, except it will likely get outdated quicker. Personally, I've heard NOTHING but bad comments about Lindows. But when these come out, I am seriously thinking about buying one and putting Mandrake on it. It seems like it could be a very good deal. I'll have to see what the exact specs are. I expect it won't come with enough RAM, but other than that...

[gcutler]

If just using unused older parts that will be obsolete sooner than it should last as long as any PC. But having done support so long I've learned that memory and other power supplies and cables are not all made equal and if they skimp on quality below a certain point those machines will not last long without repairs. How are they getting the price down to $199 (I just assume low quality parts???) Kind of like the Yugo auto, cost $5000, but any accident could often cost $4000 to repair. The beneift of the product went down the drain. If they use sub-par parts, it may cost them $50-$100 just to bring the PC in for repair every 6 months, making it not such a great deal.

I remember Compaq came out with a real inexpensive home model (must have been around 1995, one of the first $999 PCs). I recommended it to several people based on my corporate experience, and boy was that a mistake. Everyone I know who bought it (monitor included) had several parts failure within 6 months. Looking inside the case, it was obvious that for this unit Compaq did not mean quality.

But again this is all conjecture. Until someone actually opens up one of these babies and gives up what is really going on inside (as well as inside the OS)

[MarkA]

Good point gcutler. Look at eMachines. I've owned an eMachines, and know many others who own them. The cost of repairs for those things is usually very high (I have personal experience with 5 older eMachines computers - all but one of them have had the power supply go bad!). Now admittedly, I believe eMachines has switched to a somewhat better supply since then. These systems were all from 1998.

[James_F]

Hey, you get what you pay for, I don't think I could build a computer for $199 myself... :D

[MarkA]

It would be tough certainly James. Heck, I know of cases that cost that much:)

[James_F]

Yea, you get what you pay for.... :lol: Just try and put some RDRAM in a $199 computer... :D

[MarkA]

But for a second system to use the internet on - a $199 system wouldn't be half bad in all liklihood!

[James_F]

Right, but you'd expect it not to last. Its like buying a Kia... Yea it costs $9,999 new, but will it be around in 2 years? :confused:

[Steve Mehs]

RDRAM, is that stuff still around? I assume prices came down quite a bit from when it used to be $800 for 128MB. I remember Leo and Patrick always bashing it for the price...

[James_F]

:lol: I have RDRAM on my Intel 850 motherboard... 1 gig of it.... Don't ask what I paid for that 18 months ago :eek2:

[MarkA]

"I remember Leo and Patrick always bashing it for the price..."

Leo and Patrick are funny guys. They make lots of mistakes, yet the "half-newbies" who are still newbies but don't like to think of themselves as such worship them! They've bashed HDTV, basically calling it a scam, they've gave bad advice, and done many other things. They're just one step above Consumer Reports, IMHO. RDRAM is a good system. Expensive - yes (though that's actually changed a lot). The best - you betcha! Oh well, I'll admit I watch The Screen Savers occasionally - it's funny at times, and sometimes they show off a cool new product or something!

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
But for a second system to use the internet on - a $199 system wouldn't be half bad in all liklihood!

Very true, with a memory upgrade would be great for the 2nd machine OR 3rd machine in a lab to testing or just playing around.

My co-worker (entry level pc tech support kind of guy, is learning a bunch of stuff like editing the registry, etc) had to go out and buy another PC just to tinker with at home. His wife was about to divorce him because he tinkered tooo much with the family PC and she couldn't do Quicken anymore. :D He has not been banished to the garage overnight since he only tinkers on the 2nd PC.

But Lindows and Walmart seem to be trying to market these to every day users who have never owned a PC before???

[James_F]

Yea, windows is hard enough for an end user, I've never played with Lindows, but I'm sure its not easier... :nono:

[MarkA]

But the question is James and gcutler - is Linux any harder to LEARN as a FIRST OS? I don't believe it is, and if it is - it's not much harder. I don't think that's an issue for a first computer, only for people interested in switching to Linux. Neither is that hard, I use both on a regular basis. I must admit I prefer Windows - more software and hardware available, plus my cruddy modem doesn't work with Linux. But I don't see why Linux would make a bad newbie OS. It's like learning Danish - it could be very difficult to a native English speaker (some of the Danish pronunciations are TOUGH). But is it harder to learn as a first language? Not at all!

[James_F]

Unless they figured out how to make installing software easier, then I doubt it will take off...

[MarkA]

Doesn't Lindows allow use of RPMs? With RPMs, installing Linux software is no harder than installing Windows software. Even with precompiled binaries that aren't hard. It's no different from Windows, RPMs are like having a Windows installer, precompiled binary packages are like having the software with no installer, and source code only programs aren't any harder (in fact I think they are easier) to compile on Linux as such programs for Windows are.

The DIFFERENCE is... More Linux programs are only available as source, and far less have an installer (are RPMs). But I think again, it's learning Danish vs. learning English. I don't think Linux is harder to learn as a first "language". I think it's hard to learn after knowing Windows. In a similar way, I'd say Windows is probably going to be hard for someone who buys one of these boxes as their first PC and only learns Windows.

[James_F]

You are partly correct. The fact that plugin and play isn't really supported and that most software GUIs are not similar, will hurt new owners of computers IMO. I agree, that if its all you know, then it might not be as hard, but most people have used windows or macos and would feel out of place on Lindows...

[MarkA]

"The fact that plugin and play isn't really supported and that most software GUIs are not similar"

Plug and Play is a relatively new thing as it is, and most newbies don't even get around to installing software, much less hardware for a long time after they've got their PCs.

"I agree, that if its all you know, then it might not be as hard, but most people have used windows or macos and would feel out of place on Lindows..."

Correct, but for a first PC, I don't think Linux would be bad. If you know nothing else, it would be easy to learn. Heck, it's not that hard to learn if you're willing to spend a couple Saturdays even if you are familiar with Windows or MacOS.

[James_F]

I don't know. If you buy a HP printer, you shouldn't have to download drivers to make it work on Lindows (if the printer is even supported). That is where they will have trouble and the teen-aged kids behind the counter won't be able to help them... :shrug:

[MarkA]

"That is where they will have trouble and the teen-aged kids behind the counter won't be able to help them... "

Ya'know what? That's a great point. The first good arguement against Linux for newbies I've heard. Even though it's no harder to learn (IMHO of course) than Windows, it's harder to find people to help you learn it. You do have to be willing to go for it on your own!

[James_F]

I just don't think linux has the tools to become a consumer OS. Workstation maybe and Server definitely, but consumer level, no....

[MarkA]

What "tools" does your average consumer need?

- It has full support for most common hardware
- It has two fine web browsers (Mozilla/Netscape and Konqueror)
- It has several good office suites (including OpenOffice)
- It has a few games, and full OpenGL support should it become a popular OS
- It has not one, but TWO good user interfaces (KDE (my favorite) and Gnome)

Looks to me like Linux has everything a simple, average consumer needs.

[James_F]

I think the "Full Support for common hardware" is where it is lacking. If the average user of one of the Linux systems heads to Best Buy, how many Printers, Scanners, Digital Cameras, Software, not to mention the people there to help them figure out how to use the stuff with Linux. The internet community is a great help, but could grandma figure that out?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
But the question is James and gcutler - is Linux any harder to LEARN as a FIRST OS? I don't believe it is, and if it is - it's not much harder. I don't think that's an issue for a first computer, ). But is it harder to learn as a first language? Not at all!

That brings up the issue of getting training. Most people are not going to crack open a book to learn the OS. A friend of mine whose 80 year old parents got their first PC went to the Senior Center and took a class on Windows 98/ME (how to move around, etc) and how to access the internet. Would classes like that be close enough to be valuable to Lindows? A bundled CBT would be another alternative, but I think at $199, you don't get much???

[MarkA]

"Would classes like that be close enough to be valuable to Lindows? "

Nope, in fact I believe a class like that could be harmful. That's why basic classes like that, only using Linux, should be made available.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
"Would classes like that be close enough to be valuable to Lindows? "

Nope, in fact I believe a class like that could be harmful. That's why basic classes like that, only using Linux, should be made available.

But at $199 per machine, Wal-mart or whomever is not going to hold the classes for free (even at an additional cost to hold it may not be cost effective) So that leaves it upto the Seniors Centers or Community Centers to (1) find someone to teach the classes and (2) pay for the classes (pay instructor and PC usage at least until earning the cost back by attendees paying). If they hold a "Intro to Windows" or "Intro to Internet Explorer/Outlook Express", they know that 90% of the Computer using population might be interested. A class to learn Lindows does not seem to be realistic unless it is done by a volunteer (now having to findsomeone who is capable of teaching, knows the product and will do it for free, statistics say not alot of these classes will occur.) It is catch-22, No classes until demand increases, no demand until classes are available.

So what happens is (I believe) the only people who will go for these machines are either mis-informed people or people who are looking for a 2nd inexpensive machine and want to tinker with Linux (I believe a real tinkerer would not be happy with the hardware for a PRIMARY machine)

These $199 machines with Lindows might be as bad an idea as "New Coke". You will hear about people who bought the machine and couldn't get support or classes to learn how to use it. Perhaps the only saving grace might be if the Lindows User Groups form all over the place. I predict alot of unhappy users?!?!

[MarkA]

"people who are looking for a 2nd inexpensive machine"

That's me, I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY wanting to buy one and a flat panel monitor (for my current system, using the one I have now on the Wal-Mart box). Of course I'd wipe it and put Mandrake on it (I've heard too much bad stuff about Lindows). I like Mandrake. For $650 (a $400 Philips 15" flat panel from Best Buy and a $200 computer for Wal-Mart, and $50 worth of Crucial RAM) I could have a second computer and a significant upgrade (the flat panel) to my main computer. Doesn't sound bad once I get the money to do it!

"These $199 machines with Lindows might be as bad an idea as "New Coke"."

New Coke wasn't a bad idea. In double-blind studies people liked it better than the old stuff! What was a BAD idea was getting rid of the old Coke (meaning, new Coke should have been a seperate product like Diet, Cherry, or Vanilla Coke)...

Mark

[James_F]

Well, it may or may not work, but selling it at Walmart is a bad idea. How can they support something like that?

[MarkA]

I don't know James. Wal-Mart is the only company really big enough to compete with Microsoft. I think Wal-Mart may be what makes is work!

[James_F]

I don't doubt they can get it out to the masses, but they can't even keep DVDs in stock, how are they going to give computer advice?

[MarkA]

They're not. Their goal is to sell, not provide support. That's why I believe unless you know exactly what you want, there are better choices in shopping than at Wal-Mart.

[James_F]

Maybe you are right, but I'd say that its an area that Walmart will not be able to handle... :shrug:

[Bogy]

It may be that Wal-Mart will sell $199 boxes to people looking for a second machine. However, as a frequent Wal-Mart shopper myself, my guess a number of these will be purchased by families who feel they need a computer for the kids to use. The only thing that has prevented them so far is the cost. At $199 they will make the plunge. Now personally, I have absolutely no history with Linux or Lindows, so I have no idea how much crossover or commonality there is. The problem I see is a kid coming home and saying, "This is how we do it at school," but it doesn't work at home. Or if a kid brings a floppy home. Or brings one to school. Will they end up with a disk that no one can read? I've already had this problem with Macs and/or older software at school than I have at home. I've had time I have downloaded an assignment for one of my kids in five different formats hoping the school computers/software will read at least one of them. Is the non computer literate parent going to be able to do this? Oh well, hopefully the kids can teach their parents what to do.

[MarkA]

"Or brings one to school."

Not likely, - at $199 the boxes don't have a floppy drive:) But it's not a big deal if you end up needing one. They have the bay and a floppy drive costs about $15-$20. Personally, I see no need for one, but some might. And it's cheap and easy to add a floppy drive.

"Will they end up with a disk that no one can read?"

Nope, Linux and Windows both read and write FAT12 floppies (yes, FAT12 - the FAT on floppies is 12 bit)

"I've already had this problem with Macs"

Not a problem anymore, as Macs can read/write FAT12 floppies - edited to note that Macs *do not* come with a floppy drive and do not suppot a standard floppy drive. You need an external USB floppy drive to read/write any floppies on a recent Mac -

"I've had time I have downloaded an assignment for one of my kids in five different formats hoping the school computers/software will read at least one of them"

Just do it in Word 97 format - anything can read that that's remotely modern (all recent versions of Office, StarOffice, and OpenOffice).

[Geronimo]

Actualkly they tried marketing new Coke along "Classic" Coke. People chose Classic. It may well be that new coke won taste tests butt he loyalty to the existing formula transcended that.

[MarkA]

Really Geronimo? That's interesting - all the websites I've read on the topic say they pulled Classic for awhile because Coke didn't want to compete with themselves. Oh well, I'm not old enough to remember that. I'll trust you since you're a nice guy:) I do know I've always read New Coke won all the taste tests.

-update-

P.S., maybe you'd know about this Geronimo: I've always heard that since Coke changed the type of sugar used to High Fructose Corn Syrup a few decades ago (to reduce cost), that the stuff doesn't taste as good. Is this true?

[James_F]

Being so close to Mexico we go down and pick up some Coke made with sugar and bring it back over the border. I think it makes a huge difference...

[MarkA]

Really, it's plain old sugar in MEXICO?!?!?!?! Where the people are poorer (and therefore less able to afford a product more expensive to make)? That's crazy! :)

[James_F]

Its just the consumers won't put up with corn syrup. They would rather pay more than have corn syrup. Its like that in many Central/South American countries...

[James_F]

I found a place where you can buy Coke from Mexico online...

http://www.popsoda.com/cocacola.html

Or Holland...

http://www.popsoda.com/coccolfromho.html

Actually the whole site is pretty cool....

http://www.popsoda.com/

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
That's me, I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY wanting to buy one and a flat panel monitor (for my current system, using the one I have now on the Wal-Mart box). Of course I'd wipe it and put Mandrake on it (I've heard too much bad stuff about Lindows). I like Mandrake. For $650 (a $400 Philips 15" flat panel from Best Buy and a $200 computer for Wal-Mart, and $50 worth of Crucial RAM) I could have a second computer and a significant upgrade (the flat panel) to my main computer. Doesn't sound bad once I get the money to do it!

I hope the components inside the machine are relatively well known and/or drivers bundled with Mandrake. Or Else hunting down those drivers may be a pain. Logic says that Mandrake should have most drivers, but murphys law is always ready to jump out and play with us :D Nothing like looking at some FCC ID on an internal modem to figure out the manufacturer. You may want to keep Lindows on for a few days until you document each driver loaded for worst case scenario.

[MarkA]

Thanks for the site James, it looks cool:

"You may want to keep Lindows on for a few days until you document each driver loaded for worst case scenario."

Of course, you do want to make sure you know how everything is setup before you wipe it:) Saves a lot of time in the long run...

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
Oh well, I'm not old enough to remember that. I'll trust you since you're a nice guy:) I do know I've always read New Coke won all the taste tests.

I was working in a supermarket stocking shelves as a summer college job the summer they came out with NEW COKE. So I got to see it first hand. There was an initial burst of purchases as people were intrigued, then the New Coke barely moved. It gave us employees something to talk about besides how much we hated the manager of the store and his bad toupee :p

[Bogy]

Originally posted by Zac
"Or brings one to school."

Not likely, - at $199 the boxes don't have a floppy drive:) But it's not a big deal if you end up needing one. They have the bay and a floppy drive costs about $15-$20. Personally, I see no need for one, but some might. And it's cheap and easy to add a floppy drive.That might cause a problem, when the student gets an assignment to bring in their Powerpoint project and they have no way to download it. And while you and I know that installing a floppy drive is no big deal, opening the box can be traumatic for many people.

"Will they end up with a disk that no one can read?"

Nope, Linux and Windows both read and write FAT12 floppies (yes, FAT12 - the FAT on floppies is 12 bit)I'm not really concerned about the FAT. It's the software that's the issue.

"I've already had this problem with Macs"

Not a problem anymore, as Macs can read/write FAT12 floppies - edited to note that Macs *do not* come with a floppy drive and do not suppot a standard floppy drive. You need an external USB floppy drive to read/write any floppies on a recent Mac - You are assuming that the Mac's that schools have are recent. The Macs that my daughter used in HS on the school paper had floppy drives. So did the Mac that her first dorm room at college came equipped with.

"I've had time I have downloaded an assignment for one of my kids in five different formats hoping the school computers/software will read at least one of them"

Just do it in Word 97 format - anything can read that that's remotely modern (all recent versions of Office, StarOffice, and OpenOffice). Actually, the specific example I was thinking of was the Macs in the journalism room, which did not come equipped with Word for Windows. Even 97. I have also run into the same problem when one of my kids takes a disk to school and comes home with the news that their homework couldn't be read at school. We then realized that they had saved it in Word 2000 and the school computers we needed to use Word 97.
You were in school recently, weren't you? You sound more like someone in a business setting with the luxury of always having the latest hardware and software.

[MarkA]

"That might cause a problem, when the student gets an assignment to bring in their Powerpoint project and they have no way to download it."

Not having a CD recorder would be more of a problem for that... In high school (which I just finished), I had probably a dozen PowerPoint presentations. No way would any of them have fit on a floppy disk! One was several hundred megabytes (a video clip at the end of it added a fair bit). Even the smallest one was about 5 MB or so, several times too big for a floppy. The idea of putting a PowerPoint on a floppy is just not something I can see happening unless you totall avoid pictures and stuff:)

"And while you and I know that installing a floppy drive is no big deal, opening the box can be traumatic for many people."

Ahh, it does them good. All they have to do is connect a data ribbon and power wire! It'll make them better users in the long run:) And if they really don't want to they should have no problem finding a techie friend who can do it

"You were in school recently, weren't you? You sound more like someone in a business setting with the luxury of always having the latest hardware and software."

Yup, the hardware at my school wasn't that bad though. A few Xi AMD Athlon systems in the tech lab, quite a few newer old-style iMacs for the writing computer lab, PIII Dells in the classrooms and in the labs for computer apps and web design. At the end of last year they were getting a few of the New (lamp-like:) ) iMacs towards the end of the year for the library. Otherwise, Dell PIIIs in the library Some G3 and G4 towers for video editing in the tech lab. Science labs had Gateway PIII laptops with 802.11b connection to the network. Next years upgrades (though I won't be there! I'm so glad to have finished HS) will mainly be for the tech lab, and at the end of this last year I know they were talking about MicronPC AMD Athlon XP systems. So ya, I just finished school. The only really old computers in my senior year were in the library, and it was just a few old original PPC Power Macs. In my sophmore and junior years they were using these in the english (writing) computer lab. But nothing that didn't have at least Office 97 on it (or StarOffice on the Linux boxes in the tech lab). Everything was Win98, Win2k, MacOS X, or MacOS 9 - except some Linux boxes setup by kids (including myself) in tech class.

[Bogy]

Originally posted by Zac
"That might cause a problem, when the student gets an assignment to bring in their Powerpoint project and they have no way to download it."

Not having a CD recorder would be more of a problem for that... In high school (which I just finished), I had probably a dozen PowerPoint presentations. No way would any of them have fit on a floppy disk! One was several hundred megabytes (a video clip at the end of it added a fair bit). Even the smallest one was about 5 MB or so, several times too big for a floppy. The idea of putting a PowerPoint on a floppy is just not something I can see happening unless you totall avoid pictures and stuff:)
A simple 15 to 20 page presentation, the kind a kid in elementary school would put together, will quite easily fit on a floppy. Of course the other issue that hasn't been addressed is, how many people are going to buy a program that is as expensive as their computer, and load that program on their $200 box?

[Neil Derryberry]

easy... wal-mart's attitude is to just replace it. They charge back the vendor, and they're done.

[Steve Mehs]

Forget the floppys :)

I always transfer my files back and forth, from home to school with Yahoo Briefcase. Actually thats my only option, floppy discs are officially banned in my school and we only have one CD burner, that students are not allowed to use.

[MarkA]

"A simple 15 to 20 page presentation, the kind a kid in elementary school would put together"

Perhaps if it's simple, I looked at the only PPT from high school I kept and it was about that long and 5 MB. Besides, around here, I doubt the elementary schools do PowerPoints that often because I think most of them only have a couple projectors the whole school has to share

[lee635]

$199 for a new pc with 850-MHz AMD Duron chip, 128 Mbytes of memory, a 10-Gbyte hard drive, and a CD-ROM is a great deal, plus a case, keyboard, mouse etc. You couldn't buy these parts for $199.

This will be such a great equalizer, now low- and moderate-income families will be able to afford a microcomputer. And schools will be hard pressed to justify one $600 pc when they can get 3 of these units. The windows advantage is highly over rated marketing hype from the Microsoft folks. Microsoft has plenty bugs and plenty problems. Once these systems start flying off the shelves, a critical mass user base will develop.

[James_F]

Originally posted by lee635
$199 for a new pc with 850-MHz AMD Duron chip, 128 Mbytes of memory, a 10-Gbyte hard drive, and a CD-ROM is a great deal, plus a case, keyboard, mouse etc. You couldn't buy these parts for $199.

You can't buy those parts period!  :lol:  10 gig HD, 850 AMD Duron... :lol:

[gcutler]

Originally posted by lee635
Once these systems start flying off the shelves, a critical mass user base will develop.

But Apple and MS made sure there was an infrastructure available to get people trained (Free In House Demonstrations and mini-training seminars). I doubt Lindows or Wal-Mart has the money to invest/lose on getting people trained cheaply. So the PCs could fly off the shelf but they may just end up with Bootleg copies of WindowsME or 98 if people aren't able to learn Lindows. If there are no "10 Minute Guides to Lindows" or "Lindows for Dummies" books or almost free seminars at the community center then the Lindows machines may flounder.

The problem will be that these people who want the $199 machines will probably need more support than the person who spends $600 on a machine.

It is a chicken and the egg situation. A critical mass cannot occur until enough people are at least functional with Lindows. And without several avenues of training available CHEAP, no one will be able to work these machines properly and they will be returned in droves and the critical mass will never occur.

I guess the future will easily determine who is correct. Lets sit back and watch :D

[James_F]

Even bigger than that is there aren't many people who know how to administer Linux. Thats an even bigger problem than lack of books. If you can't call your Uncle up and ask how to add a printer, who can you call?

BTW, a search on Amazon.com for Lindows came up with 0 hits... Not a good sign. :nono:

[MarkA]

"CHEAP, no one will be able to work these machines properly and they will be returned in droves and the critical mass will never occur. "

Returned? I doubt it. Given the price, I'd bet most people would just spend $100 on an OEM copy of Windows XP Home if they didn't like Linux.

[James_F]

WalMart people. Not, they'll have to shell out $199...

[MarkA]

Remember James, AFAIK, these boxes aren't being sold AT WAL-MART (certainly not here), but at WalMart.com only.

[James_F]

So what happens when they show up to walmart to return the computer?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
"CHEAP, no one will be able to work these machines properly and they will be returned in droves and the critical mass will never occur. "

Returned? I doubt it. Given the price, I'd bet most people would just spend $100 on an OEM copy of Windows XP Home if they didn't like Linux.

Will they be able to install it (at least there is a chance Cousin Bill can stop by to help). And they will learn that by going for a $199 PC they will have to spend anothr $99-$199 to get it running to where they can call Cousin Bill every time they have a problem.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
So what happens when they show up to walmart to return the computer?

They will leave it there and run out of the store with $199 worth of Jacqueline Smith Collection clothes. Technically it wouldn't be shoplifting :D

[James_F]

:lol: I personally can't stand the stores (Walmart that is).. all those damn :) staring at me. :eek2:

[Bogy]

I went back and re-read the link in the first post again today. The target market are the folks who just want a box to do e-mail and surf the web. As long as Lindows doesn't make it to hard to do these things, it will do the job. These are meant to be upgraded net appliances. All my mother wants to do is send email, and play solitaire or freecell. I've got her set up with an old 486 that does what she wants, with a whole $30 investment in some more memory and a faster (used) modem. I've thought about upgrading her, but it would just confuse her if I made to many changes. She's happy. She prefers Target to Wal-Mart, but she's the same kind of person who would be interested in these.

[MarkA]

"Will they be able to install it"

No offense or anything if you've tried and failed, but having installed XP many times (the most recent being today - my computer was starting to slow down and stuff so I wiped the drive and clean installed Windows - just finishing reinstalling my software now in fact), both for myself and other people I have to say one thing - How could you NOT figure out how to install XP? It has at least functional drivers for almost all hardware ever created, and the only questions it asks you during the install are:

Do you agree to the license?
Where do you want to install Windows?
What's your product key?
Do you use a non US standard time, date, or currency format, or are the defaults okay (most people just need to click next, I have to setup my times and dates the way I like them:) )?
What time zone are you in?
Do you want Windows to automatically handle daylight savings?
What time IS IT?
Are you on a domain, if so what is it?
What's your computer's name?
What's your workgroup name if you're not on a domain?
Enter an admin password?
Do you like how your screen now looks?
Can I help you connecting to the internet? If so, what are your connection settings or what is your major ISP?

Serious, that's it. Installing Windows XP is a piece of cake, that anybody who can read could figure out how to do (if they'll want to figure out how is another story...)

Mark

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Bogy
I went back and re-read the link in the first post again today. The target market are the folks who just want a box to do e-mail and surf the web. As long as Lindows doesn't make it to hard to do these things, it will do the job.

But these are exactly the people who are constantly calling the relative with computer skills for help (your mom may vary :D ). I think a net applicance may be safer for these type of people as it is harder to get lost (due to it doing less). If Lindows is a fully functional OS, it will be pretty easy to get lost, but without the benefit of someone free to call. Would you be able to support this machine for your mom. (We may not be able to answer this till we see Lindows in Action)???

[James_F]

I think a trip to their support site should tell you how ready they are for Grandma...

http://help.lindows.com/cgi-bin/visitors.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php

What the hell does grandma care about Open Source???

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
"Will they be able to install it"

No offense or anything if you've tried and failed...

Serious, that's it. Installing Windows XP is a piece of cake, that anybody who can read could figure out how to do (if they'll want to figure out how is another story...)


Mark,

How Arrogant can you be???. Just because you think it is easy, you assume everyone will have no problem (or they are being lazy if they can't do it)... That Teaching Degree you want is sounding more and more inappropriate!!!

People will often panic when they come across a screen that they don't understand.

I have been providing tech support for over 15 years, and there are tons or reasons people may not be able to do the install.

Here are just a few samples where an install will not complete or will not end with a 100% working machine.

1) PC is not setup to boot off of CD, most people don't know how to go into CMOS and change the boot order (or that it is even an option). I have seen this hundreds (yes hundreds) of times... And they won't know about making a boot disk either.

2) Partition table is full with partitions that are not compatible with OS or not enough room. The Partition table is very intimidating to people, I can think of 50 installs I have seen by people who were stuck at the partition table. They are afraid when they get the "Delete" or "Format" dialog box that says they will lose all data (User dosen't realize on a new machine it really dosen't matter)

3) Hardware/Drivers not part of install. Last week a friend frantically called after installing Win2000 Pro, it finished but nothing was working right. Even tough the Machine was bought 6 months before W2KPro was released at least 4 sets of drivers were not part of the install. They had no idea how to get the Video drivers, Network drivers, etc installed if they were not included in install package. And they had the catch-22 of the Modem and Network card drivers were not installed and even if they could find them they would not fit on a floppy. Luckily by them coming by I was able to download all the drivers and burn them on a CD from my machine and they were able to install them once on the CD in their machine. On my personal machine, after Installin XP I still needed to install additional drivers to get it working. Rarely does any install give you EVERY driver!!!

You may not consider these valid reasons why someone might fail to complete an install by themselves, but perhaps you should remember back to the first time you added hardware or installed an OS by yourself (without any help). Unless you are just special
:rolleyes:

[James_F]

And what happens if they go out and buy a CD burner??? Where do they get the software? Download... Come on... That isn't a solution. Also there is no guarantee that the hardware is even supported by Lindows...

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
And what happens if they go out and buy a CD burner??? Where do they get the software? Download... Come on... That isn't a solution. Also there is no guarantee that the hardware is even supported by Lindows...

Or even a printer or scanner or digital camera or any other device it could be just as scary.

[MarkA]

"How Arrogant can you be???"

Sorry gcutler, but I think you didn't understand what I meant. I said anybody COULD figure out how to install XP, and I strongly believe that. We live in a society where most people drive. Driving is a lot harder than answering 10-15 questions.

"People will often panic when they come across a screen that they don't understand."

That's more like it. People are afraid to take risks. When the come across something they don't understand they'll freak out. People need to learn to take chances! They're wiping their drive to install Windows anyways! They need to just take a guess and if they get it wrong, so what? They can try again. Learning is a process accomplished through trial and error. Too many in out society are forgetting that, IMHO.

"2) Partition table is full with partitions that are not compatible with OS or not enough room. The Partition table is very intimidating to people, I can think of 50 installs I have seen by people who were stuck at the partition table. They are afraid when they get the "Delete" or "Format" dialog box that says they will lose all data (User dosen't realize on a new machine it really dosen't matter)"

Again, they CAN do it, they're just scared. When you live out in the middle of nowhere, you quickly learn life is about more than always taking the safe way, the beaten path...

"1) PC is not setup to boot off of CD, most people don't know how to go into CMOS and change the boot order (or that it is even an option). I have seen this hundreds (yes hundreds) of times... And they won't know about making a boot disk either."

Agreed CMOS setup is a scary place. There are certain things, like a BIOS flash that even scare me todays. But this will not be an issue a person will (at least, if the people building these things have any common sense) encounter on a new system.

"3) Hardware/Drivers not part of install. Last week a friend frantically called after installing Win2000 Pro, it finished but nothing was working right. Even tough the Machine was bought 6 months before W2KPro was released at least 4 sets of drivers were not part of the install. They had no idea how to get the Video drivers, Network drivers, etc installed if they were not included in install package. "

These are very basic systems, I seriously doubt there is anything XP doesn't have built in drivers for on these boxes.

"perhaps you should remember back to the first time you added hardware or installed an OS by yourself (without any help). Unless you are just special "

Fond memories! First hardware upgrade (other than RAM) I did was a new hard drive. It was fun. And it was a Windows 3.1 system:) I spent all day getting it working, reformatting 5 times or so after giving up in frustration. I was like 11 or 12 at the time (11 I THINK). But when it was done, I was happy - and I didn't need any help! Think about that. If I (or anybody) can handle 3.1 at 11, I think XP is easy enough for a grown adult:) That said, I can see why people would get scared. That's why I think all computers should come with a big poster or something in bright letters that says "DON'T WORRY! If you've backed up your important files to CD beforehand, nothing you do to your computer software is reason to be worried or afraid!" :):):)

Sorry if I bothered anybody, that's really not my intent, nor is it ever. I tried to make that nice:) It's all good man! Computers are fancy, expensive toys. People buying a $199 box could either:

1.) Take the easy way, ask friends for help, and only do things that they feel safe doing - like email and typing.

2.) Take risks. Climb mountains, and use their $199 box as a great learning tool. Experiment. Have fun. Learn. Live. Teach others in turn.

Now, which would you rather enourage people to do? Personally I'm all for number 2.

---- note, this posting wasn't meant to offend anyone. If you're a number 1 type person, that's fine. There are people like that out there. If you fit that category, no, the Microtel boxes aren't a good choice. But I feel they really have the potential to offer something really special, and are a GREAT opportunity, especially for lower-income families. And anyways - all this about these systems using Linux and people not being to install Windows is pointless. I offer you two situations:

1.) A person can afford one of these Microtel computers, goes for it, and learns a lot. Leads to a better career with their new skills and therefore all of society benefits.

2.) A person waits until they can afford a Windows box. Kids are grown up without the same skills, parents are too old at this point to learn sufficient new skills, all of society loses.-----

PLEASE, keep this friendly. I had many questions about if I should post this. And if the mods don't think it's okay - go right ahead and delete it - I won't post anything like it again. I really am dedicated to being a new, helpful person. But then I decided this post might help lurkers on here thinking about these boxes (technically in computers it should be boxen, but that's another story...). If you're out there, perhaps looking at this at a friends house or a library, and are thinking about these, but scared of the Linux factor - I say go for it! If you can't afford any other computer, you would be denying your self the opportunity of a lifetime, no matter what OS it comes with...

[James_F]

All for an OS that costs $99. :nono:

For that kind of money, i'd expect more service..

Check this out on how to connect to Microsoft Windows Networks... :eek2:

http://help.lindows.com/cgi-bin/visitors.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=ieoQ28ng&p_lva=&p_faqid=152&p_created=1026313370&p_sp=cF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTk0JnBfcGFnZT0z&p_li=

And look, even if you buy the computer at WalMart, you still have to pay $99 to be an insider and get full service!!!!!

http://help.lindows.com/cgi-bin/visitors.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=ieoQ28ng&p_lva=&p_faqid=164&p_created=1028072045&p_sp=cF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTk0JnBfcGFnZT01&p_li=

[MarkA]

"And look, even if you buy the computer at WalMart, you still have to pay $99 to be an insider and get full service!!!!!"

Now THAT'S crazy, we agree on that, but as I said two posts up - I feel these are a great opportunity.

As for the Windows network, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable procedure for a Linux box, and home users need not connect to networks.

[James_F]

I'd disagree, home networks will become much more popular over the next year. What if someone got this computer as a second one for their kids. They couldn't share printers or files. Thats a huge mistake. I don't think this would be a single computer, but more likely a second or third computer....

[MarkA]

Well, I think this thread has got to the point where it's pretty much pointless. Could a mod please close it? (I just don't think there's any need to debate it). In conclusion, we have determined that these boxes appeal to several different groups of people, and that many of these may want to be careful because of the fact that they don't use Windows.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Zac
Fond memories! First hardware upgrade (other than RAM) I did was a new hard drive. It was fun. And it was a Windows 3.1 system:) I spent all day getting it working, reformatting 5 times or so after giving up in frustration. I was like 11 or 12 at the time (11 I THINK). But when it was done, I was happy - and I didn't need any help! Think about that. If I (or anybody) can handle 3.1 at 11, I think XP is easy enough for a grown adult:) That said, I can see why people would get scared. That's why I think all computers should come with a big poster or something in bright letters that says "DON'T WORRY! If you've backed up your important files to CD beforehand, nothing you do to your computer software is reason to be worried or afraid!" :):):)

And thats the point. You and most of us don't mind spending hours and hours redoing something 5 times. But the every day user (and the person who might be looking at this product as a newbie) does not consider it a benefit that after 5 tries they got it working. They consider it wasted time. My brother does not benefit if he spent 3 hours doing something over and over again, he only feels benefts when he had problem free operation.

When I'm doing support and I spent 3 hours on the phone trying to get a users system to replicate with the e-mail system, it may be necessary and the user may be happy that it works now, but they also consider that they wasted 3 hours to their valuable time on something they feel should not have broken or should have worked to begin with.

So people do not want to have to try reinstalling the OS several times, they get intimidated by screens with big warnings, and we should not find it shocking that the average user hits the brick walls when attempting to install (and it isn't them not being brave enough to try the unexpected). Sometimes it is better not to go foward if you are not sure.

[MarkA]

Talk about try, try, try again! Today I just learned what it's like to be frustrated with a computer for real:) But now I look back on it as a learning experience... I just finally was able to get to Windows Update, after working on it for six hours, and doing two formats (I formatted because my computer was acting slow, then I couldn't reach Windows Update, reformatted again, still couldn't). Turns out all I had to do was delete the folders "catroot" and "catroot2" (for what it's worth, my problem was an endless loop. You need an updated Windows update... please wait while it's installed... you need an updated Windows Update... just repeating until I got tired of it).

---update--- OH, my! 28.6MB for everything except the .NET framework is all the updates on XP Professional! Anyways, Windows isn't all fun and games either. To get the very important updates, I had to go into several folders Windows warned me I could seriously mess up my computer by touching, then once I deleted the catroots, and Windows regenerated them from Win Update, System File Checker kicked in and wanted to restore the CD versions (which likely would have restored us to the begining...). Computers are funny things. Even Macs aren't perfect for user friendliness:)

[Steve Mehs]

As Zac requested...