Did Dish dish out an ECM 8/15?

[TNGTony]

I've learned that Dish may have sent out an ECM on 8/15 in the afternoon. Anyone know anything about this? I wonder how many receivers fried this afternoon.

See ya
Tony

[Richard King]

Hoepfully a BUNCH of 'em. All with those magic cards.

[SParker]

maybe all the hackers will be seathing in alt.dbs.echostar.hack awwww poor guys :hurah:

[J Rath]

Not sure if it was related or not but I did get a "smart card not authorized" message on my 3900 today (don't recall what time it was though). I get that message occasionally where it will pop up for about 5-10 seconds, then it goes away and back to the program I was watching. Gets annoying sometimes.

[DRJDAN]

What is ECM ?

[bkwest]

Electronic Counter Measure... if I recall correctly.

[MarkA]

Correct. To add onto that - it is basically a way to remotely deactivate (and often destroy) receivers and cards for pirated programming. The downside is they always seem to end up hurting some legitimate users - and often, through no fault of their own, they have to pay to resume their service.

[kingc]

I wonder how many legit users got killed this time? From looking over the hacker boards, it looks like it was a pretty big ECM. While I am not defending hacking, everyone always points out that hackers cost the DBS company money. I wonder how much their ECM's cost from development time to killing legitimate users?

Also, what is the procedure at the DBS company if a legit user is hit?

[Jacob S]

Maybe this is why the last three customers did not pay their first bill and I got backcharged on them all. One of them told me that someone was trying to sell them pirating cards but dont know who it is. I told them that if I find out about this that it costs me and Dish money and I would turn them in and I would enforce my contract full force. If I find out a customer shuts their set off, its in my contract to pick up the equipment, that it belongs to them after a period of one year. This helps against piracy as well. I have to go after some sets. If they do not work then I will find out real fast if that is what they have in fact done.

[MarkA]

"Also, what is the procedure at the DBS company if a legit user is hit?"

Well, a friend of mine had her card die - and I suspect it was an ECM. She was charged for a replacement card ("shipping" but it was many many many times the actual shipping cost - I think about $15), and they said it just wore out. I wouldn't have tolerated that, but she didn't care that much to fight.

[Jacob S]

Sounds like they are so cheap that they would lie to their own customers to try to get out of the shipping for the card, and even try to make off of the shipping, because it does NOT cost $15 to mail out a card. It is a LOT cheaper to mail out a card than it is to ship out a satellite receiver/system in which they charge $15 as well for that, and it dont cost that much for that either, let alone a smart card.

[jrjcd]

in the worst case, sometimes legit customer's equipment gets fried and E* generally treats them pretty ugly, pretty much taking the stance that if your machine went up in smoke, you were probably doing something wrong to begin with, even tho it's easy enough to prove on their side if the customer is legit or not...

i hate piracy in any form, but it's just as wrong when E* sends down a software update that disables a perfectly good operating receiver just because it's a "legacy" model and forces the customer to pay for an upgrade they don't want. Another problem is the mysterious PPV activations that many dealers thought were just deadbeat customers trying to welsh on their porn habits, UNTIL IT STARTED HAPPENING TO SOME OF THE DEALERS!!! E* shouldn't use these methods to wring extra bucks out of their customer base-it's a snarky way to do business.

back on subject, i hope the ECM screwed up folks out their who pay big bucks to get their tv "free" thru pirate cards-and i also hope E* takes the time to check out a legit customer's complaint if their equipment went down also and treats a good customer the right way because of a problem the front office may have inadvertantly caused them....

JMHO

[PeterB]

Actualy, dish hasn't attacked the cards themselves, since they control all the software, they can give the reciever commands outside of the access card. Its a lot different from the way directtv does things.

What dish did last night and pretty much every other time, is tell the reciever to look for a specific charisitic in the access card, if it finds it, it sets the reciever's firmware to only display ch 101 and nothing else..

If you had an access card die in the last 1-2 years, its actually becuase the card died. :)

[Darkman]

Not completely true,
this time it was Firmware i hear....

But in the not so far back past - the actual cards ("the programmed" ones were targeted also)

Tony: Did you have to open up this can of worms....lol

[Scott Greczkowski]

From what i understand the other days ECM was just part 1. There is a part 2 coming. Those pirates who were not zapped last time will get it this time.

If you have ever watched the pirates fight the DBS Companies it is actually interesting to see how things work.

I say avoid the headaches and pay to watch TV.

[Jacob S]

I just hope they do not get that many or any of the legitimate customers. If I find out that any of my customers got hit and Dish goes and tries to charge them for the set and I lose my commissions as a result, there is going to be some extreme action to occur as a result.

Why would someone be paying their bill if they were pirating the system? Wouldnt they shut the system off then pirate it? That dont make sense.

[kingc]

IMO, even getting one legit customer is not acceptable. With these ECM's, Dish is basically killing equipment they do not own. They speculate you are stealing service and instead of going through proper channels, they screw up your equipment. Seems like there should be some law against this type of ECM.

What is sad is we will never know how many dollars an ECM cost Dish and even more important, how many innocent people have to pay because of Dish Network's probable stone-walling tactics.

[MarkA]

kingc, ECMs are sad but true. I can understand an occasional dead receiver or card, but they should replace it right away (FedEx overnight) at no cost.

[Richard King]

instead of going through proper channels
Tell me, what are the "proper channels"?

[J Rath]

With these ECM's, Dish is basically killing equipment they do not own.

They may not own the equipment, but they do own the smart card.

[Darkman]

They say those ECMs are very expensive...
But it is all probably Budgeted in anyhow :)

kingc: Only some romours - but they say - Over in Canada, the kind of ECMs that screw up peoples machines - are Illigal and agains the law...

[Jacob S]

If they own the cards then they should not expect the customer to pay for a replacement, unless the customer damaged or compromised the card

This should be highly illegal to intentionally destroy someone's property on purpose, but this would be considered an accident.

Sometimes its like this, how would Dish know if the customer actually did do something to compromise the system or not? Anybody that hacks it could go and say that they hit them and get a new receiver out of it. This is why they are probably so strict. Dish does NOT own the receiver (unless its DHP).

[kingc]

Originally posted by Zac
kingc, ECMs are sad but true. I can understand an occasional dead receiver or card, but they should replace it right away (FedEx overnight) at no cost.

That's the problem though. If our speculation is true that Dish basically stonewalls legit people who were hit and takes the stance they must have been stealing channels, then the innocent are getting intentionally screwed by Dish. Dish is destroying other people's property on mere speculation they are hacking the service. Sounds like that should be wrong to me.

[kingc]

Originally posted by Rking401

Tell me, what are the "proper channels"?

Admittedly, that is the problem with the DBS architecture. It's one-way so there are very few things Dish can do to stop the pirates. With that said, should Dish be allowed to destroy other people's property on less than solid proof that theft of service is happening?

A analogous situation would be where I thought you broke into my house and used your truck to haul away my 60" TV. If we follow Dish's model to stop thieves, I should be allowed to poor sugar in your gas tank just because I suspected that you stole my property. Should this be allowed?

Of course, when we live under a government that can seize people's property and sell it at auction before the people were proven guilty, what do you expect from companies?

[kingc]

Originally posted by J Rath


They may not own the equipment, but they do own the smart card.

Ofcourse, but with this latest ECM Dish was destroying people's recievers, not the smart cards.

[kingc]

Originally posted by Jacob S
If they own the cards then they should not expect the customer to pay for a replacement, unless the customer damaged or compromised the card

This should be highly illegal to intentionally destroy someone's property on purpose, but this would be considered an accident.

Sometimes its like this, how would Dish know if the customer actually did do something to compromise the system or not? Anybody that hacks it could go and say that they hit them and get a new receiver out of it. This is why they are probably so strict. Dish does NOT own the receiver (unless its DHP).

One screwed up side affect of legit people getting hit is it hurts honest installers like yourself. If I got hit, I would be calling up Dish immediately demanding new equipment. If they stonewalled me and accused me of stealing service, I would cancel on the spot, no matter whether I was under a commitment or not. Then I would disput any cancellation fees from Dish or the installer with my credit card. In this type of situation, it would be unfortunate that the installer got shafted by Dish with a chargeback.

Again, my speculation that Dish is stonewalling legit people that got hit is just speculation. With that said, I do not feel that Dish should be allowed to destroy other people's property under any circumstances.

[Jacob S]

Everybody loses, the installer, customer, Dish, everybody.

I dont see much that Dish could do other than ship out a replacement if the customer is in fact paying his/her bill, but Dish does not know if that customer was hacking or not. I dont see why someone would be hacking if they are paying the bill.

[markh]

I remember that one of the reasons given for D* dropping their Select Choice package was hackers often subscribed to that package so they would at least have a reason for having a dish up. D* didn't say that but there was much speculation about that on the forums.

[Darkman]

Jacob S - " dont see why someone would be hacking if they are paying the bill."

to get extra channels i guess that they are not paying for: Example: porn, PPVs, etc ...or just to play the games..or something...

also maybe it gives those people a loophole - if the IRD is fried to call Dish later and tell them: my Reciever is fried - i am legit Subscriber, - so gimmi New IRD....lol ( or for simular reasons )

Scott: How about closing this thread..- not that i care or mind much - but i think i read in some of the threads here That Hacking discussions are not what this forum is all about..

all i can see - it is some big game of "cat and mouse" and We can't do much about it anyhow Here...

[Jacob S]

By the time the subscriber pays for x months of programming he/she could buy a new or used receiver cheaper than that.

Also the discussion of talking piracy that deals with figuring out how to do it is what is against the rules, but not actually talking about how to prevent it or what is going on when it comes to dish/directv sending down things in the stream to combat it. Am I right?

[Darkman]

Originally posted by DRJDAN
What is ECM ?

your Cat is staring at Me - lol - :D :rolleyes: :D

[Scott Greczkowski]

This topic is FINE. We are not talking about how to hack but that Dish Network attacked the hackers.

Charlie has been smart about this ECM, with most ECM's he keeps the ECM in the stream all the time, hackers can quickly find out how the ECM works and write a fix, with this ECM it only stays active for an hour or two then is removed. A day later it is put back in again to kill more boxes.

While I would say Charlie got them good this time, they will unfortunately come back again. Its a continuing cat and mouse game.

As for the arguement that this ECM distroyed legal boxes there has been ZERO proof of that as of yet. If it was true I am SURE we would be hearing from a lot of angry customers. If a legit customer were to get hit they could just send the receiver to Echostar who will check to see if any soldering has been done in the box and will also read the smartcard to see if it has been altered in any way. I am sure these people claiming to be legit will not want to send in their recievers for this checkup. :)

I know one guy who subscribes and still hacks one of his receivers, and he only does this to watch the control room channel and the signal strength channel which airs but is not available to the public. (Hes very wierd he has a TV setup and just tuned to these channels 24 hours a day!)

Anyways score one for Charlie!

[Darkman]

Jacob S : You are Right :)

however.......

[Darkman]

haha Scott - your friend....
How do you know then Scott that Dish has this ECM on and off?

[Scott Greczkowski]

I read the newsgroups :)

Plus I sort of knew that this ECM was coming. I also know that there is a possibility of a worse part 2 to the ECM.

[Darkman]

sort of - how - approx how?

worse part 2 - lol - just wondering what that could be :)

Charlie is God!

[Jacob S]

It was published from some sources of news on the web. Also I never knew of a signal channel and a control room channel, sounds interesting. Wonder if they send down hits to those that try to get just those two things in, they probably do if they use the same methods to bring those in as they do the other channels. What all is shown on the control room channel and signal channel? Do they crack down on those that just hack to get those two channels? There is good hacking and bad hacking.

[Darkman]

no-no - saw it with my own eyes (one time) - those channels have nothing to do with it all..if you hack you are a target...

but on the other hand more likely of course - if you hack - you probably have those 2 channels anyhow...lol

not much on those 2 channels - just like a map with signals, and some control room with all the TV screens ..and ppl sitting, sometimes they get up, and walk somewhere..then they sit down..and more likely go back to work, to sleep or whatever they were doing..
Someone is there 24/7 of course.. - it is control room after all..

I also hear - hackers get more then those 2 channels that others do not get..that they get some other hidden Test, etc channels..

[MarkA]

Scott, I'm glad to hear no legitimate users have got hit this time, but legitimate users do get damaged by many ECMs, and they are forced to pay for equipment that DISH damaged that belongs to DISH (the smart card). I know somebody this happened to, of course - DISH wouldn't say it was an ECM, but I can't see what else it could have been? Is there anything other than an ECM that could kill a card?

[Jacob S]

I have heard on some of these boards about some legit customers getting hit, but none of my customers came to me telling me they got hit. I have never had a customer tell me that they have gotten hit.

Charlie probably has the control room channels up to watch over their employees while he is at home, bc I am sure Charlie gets ALL the channels to moniter everything.

[Darkman]

Charlie said once on chat something about - his bill was high...
lol
He is God anyhow - he can do what he desires..
Was said that - Charlie was seen himself in that control room few times..
Maybe that is what control room for - to keep the Employees paranoid and monitored - 24/7 - so they do not slack off..

[Steve Mehs]

I'm reading a hack board now, unfortunately, the 2 ECMs E* sent out are being dealt with quite efficently by hackers for the most part. An announcement was made that advised people not to 'fix' their equipment that got hit with the first ECM because they heard a second was coming soon. Most hackers (at least on the board that I'm reading) are already back online :mad:

[kingc]

Agreed. Seems like we should be able to talk about the affects of piracy. Just as long as we don't get into a how-to pirate type discussion.

I really wish there was some way to find out what Dish actually does when a subscriber calls up and tells Dish his reciever is dead. Would be interesting. Ofcourse, even if the answer is they replace the reciever, surely that is when it is under warranty. This still means legit people with older recievers are getting screwed.

[Jacob S]

Maybe Dish is starting to think 'what will these people think when they actually get it fixed so quick? what will these people do to fix the problem? what can we do after they fix the problem? make it a bit worse and think a little different this time anticipating the hackers to come up with a fix.'

[Richard King]

Charlie is God!
I thought Eric Clapton was God. :D

[Darkman]

some still think - there is no God...

Darvin's theory of evalution etc :)

[DmitriA]

From my limited understanding about Dish piracy, I believe most of it is achieved because of JTAG connectors on most receivers (those who don't know what JTAG is - it's a hardware debugging interface that allows you to hook up the hardware device through the serial port to your PC and iissue commands to the processor, monitor bus traffic, etc). That basically allows them to figure out how the system works, as well as repair the software in the chips that ECMs occasionally wipe out.

So what I don't get is why Dish just doesn't remove those connectors from the final IRD versions that are sold to the subscribers! :shrug: The only potential legidimate purpose for them that I can see is to help the engineers figure out what went wrong with the RMAed IRDs. BUT in a professional manufacturing environment, I'm sure they can come up with other ways to do that and even if they can't, it's a small price to pay to significantly reduce the spread of piracy, IMHO

[Darkman]

TNGTony - hehe - i see it is becoming an Imaginative, Creative, Philosophical and a Popular thread :)

lol

[Scott Greczkowski]

Wel now we all know Dish had a major ECM. We know another is coming. For us legel foks lets watch tv.

There is nothing more then this to report, so I am going to close this one.