From PVR Wire: They Don't Build 'Em Like They Used To

[bwaldron]

Apologies if this has been posted and I missed it:

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/11/09/they-dont-build-em-like-they-used-to-problems-with-the-direc/

[Earl Bonovich]

Some things I don't agree with in the article:

-) First Run / Repeat logic works fairly well with the HR20. There are some exceptions based on program... but to say it isn't working entirely... and that is not really an Interface problem.
-) Actually if you do press INFO, you will see if is a Repeat, provided the guide data states it as such.... but as compared to the TiVo equivilent, yes... it is not as detailed
-) The search results do specifically list the Channel Number next to the episode name. Not sure which search was done to tell you any different... Unless he is referring to the first search screen, which is just a filter by name... the search isn't performed until highlight the show. Again, a difference between TiVo and the DVR+ line
-) He is correct... all the results from the Series Link don't show up... that is because of the background process that runs later on to fully populate the list. Again, another difference between TiVo and the DVR+ Line (and also one of the reasons why you can schedule a Series Link faster on a DVR+ then Tivo)
-) You can delete a series link, without episodes. it... double dash in the prioritizer
-) Dual Live buffers, and pausing a live show... same issue
-) FF/REW is slow... compared to what? Standard Play? or to the TiVo series.
-) Pressing Play is a total guess.... I wouldn't call it a total guess at all... It again it is something you need to learn with the unit, just like you had to learn with a TiVo to compensate for it's auto compensation. But, yes... the play start needs to be more instantaneous then it currently is.
-) You can skip blocks (skip to tick, jump to end)... and 4x is in the works.
-) Guide double press... yes that is a "quirk"
-) The front panel LED can be dimmed, anyone that can't do it... probably needs to do a restart... or the system is not functioning.
-) The remote programming has ZERO to do with the HR20.. that is the RC line of remotes. You would have the same problem if you are using the remote with a D10, D11, H20, HR20, R15, or a DTivo as it's replacement.
-) In the guide you can go to an exact date/time in the guide using the menu option

[mnassour]

As far as FF and REW being slow, in my experience that's compared to:

1. HR10
2. DishNetwork 501/508 series
3. Ultimate TV
4. watching moss grow

(Just kidding on that last one!) :)

And don't even GET me started on that sorry excuse for a 30 second skip. I don't mind the scene flashing by, but I want to move 30 seconds in ONE second, as I can on the HR10. But I guess D* had to bow down to the advertisers.

[gormly]

People forget the first Tivo's had issues.
Tivo's were not and are still not perfect.

Over the years they have almost "prefected" the devices, but now that they are adding all kinds of functionality, they are having issues.

Its the convergence of multiple uses that hurts the reliability of products, that and short development cylcles (need to produce a result after all) and of course, the lack of resources and testing.

But the biggest problem is YOU

John wants commerical skip, Joe wants 60 sec skip, Mike doesn't want either.
Molly wants a blue background with PIP in the top right, Sally wants PIP in the bottom left and the display to be in Magenta.
The wife wants it to record ONLY Desperate Housewives when she misses it and the husband wants it to record every car show on TV except that "crappy" one.
The kids want Spongebob only on Saturday night at 8PM and on thursday at 2PM.
Grandma wants 60 minutes to be recorded on Saturday beause she has bridge on Sunday.
Granpa wants it to record the time he won that swimming championship at LaSalle in '42.

Everybody wants functionality and it all adds up to potential problems, bugs, issues and complaints.
These companies aren't out to make your days miserable, its just a side effect.

[Earl Bonovich]

As far as FF and REW being slow, in my experience that's compared to:

1. HR10
2. DishNetwork 501/508 series
3. Ultimate TV
4. watching moss grow

(Just kidding on that last one!) :)

And don't even GET me started on that sorry excuse for a 30 second skip. I don't mind the scene flashing by, but I want to move 30 seconds in ONE second, as I can on the HR10. But I guess D* had to bow down to the advertisers.


But it is not a 30s SKIP... not advertised as such. It is a 30s fixed FF.

Call me when TiVo enables SKIP as a default feature (not a backdoor), and when they add to their list of features that you can SKIP advertisements.
(in reference to D* bowing down)

[PoitNarf]

I got a little chuckle out of the graphic at the top of the article :lol:

[LI-SVT]

In reading the article I get the impression this guy is just repeating what he has heard. He never mentions how any of these problems were confirmed. As Earl pointed out some of the faults listed are just not true.

[Earl Bonovich]

I got a little chuckle out of the graphic at the top of the article :lol:

That was kind "intresting"... also, though... based on his list of devices and problems... man he has some bad luck.

[clay_w]

But it is not a 30s SKIP... not advertised as such. It is a 30s fixed FF.

Call me when TiVo enables SKIP as a default feature (not a backdoor), and when they add to their list of features that you can SKIP advertisements.
(in reference to D* bowing down)

In that case, can D* just add the "backdoor" code and also not advertise it? please... :D

After having the HR20 for over a week now, the 30 sec skip is what I miss the most, the FF does seem painfully slow in comparison.

Another reason that I miss the 30 sec skip is that it allowed me to skip parts of shows that I may not want my kids to see.

[ShapeGSX]

But it is not a 30s SKIP... not advertised as such. It is a 30s fixed FF.


Why is the 30 second slip actually slower than 3X FFWD? That makes no sense to me as a user. Talk about annoying. At least make it as fast as the fastest available FFWD speed of the HR20.

Also, the HR20 simply does not respond as quickly to remote presses as a Series 2 SD Tivo does (and I would presume the HR10 with the latest software). That really annoys me.

Other than that, my only other gripe is the horribly slow guide compared to my SD Series 2 Tivo. Oh my god is the HR20 slow in the guide. You hit the channel up/down buttons. You wait. It draws something. You wait. Then it animates the scroll. You wait. Then you can finally scroll again. They have GOT to work on that. There is no excuse for having a guide this slow, especially when we are all painfully aware that the guide is only stored in RAM (supposedly for speed!).

The Tivo will start drawing the next page of data immediately after you hit the button. And before the redraw is done, you can hit the button again and again to interrupt the redraw and scroll. The HR20 will not interrupt the redraw if you hit the scroll again. So scrolling quickly through the guide is impossible! :mad:

Responding to user input quickly is paramount in a CE device. It should always have priority over a GUI redraw.

[Earl Bonovich]

I don't know why the 30s Slip is slower then 3x... I have been told that they are looking at the 30s SLIP in the next-next release (the one after 0xEB). As the 30s on the R15 is pretty quick.

As for the guide being slow. Not sure what is going on on your HR20... but my guide is definently faster then anything I had on my DTivos, and light years faster then my HR10. One thing to try is making a favorite list, I found that speeds up the guide pretty good.

[ShapeGSX]

Earl, which guide do you use on the Tivo? The DirecTV guide or the Tivo Guide.

I have always used the Tivo guide, and I have found it to be rather quick to respond to input.

Maybe I'll make a video of me scrolling both the Tivo and HR20 guides and upload it to YouTube to show the difference.

[jerkieman]

People forget the first Tivo's had issues.
Tivo's were not and are still not perfect.

But the biggest problem is YOU

You're kidding me right ? You do realize that it freezes up, and can't record Sunday ticket / NHL Center Ice.. How is that my problem again ?

[btmoore]

Earl, which guide do you use on the Tivo? The DirecTV guide or the Tivo Guide.

I have always used the Tivo guide, and I have found it to be rather quick to respond to input.

Maybe I'll make a video of me scrolling both the Tivo and HR20 guides and upload it to YouTube to show the difference.


I have to agree with ShapGSX, I have used the TiVo style guide for about 6 years on a Sat-t60 and it smokes the HR20s guide, and there is a lot more information on the tivo guide screen.

[Earl Bonovich]

I have never liked the "TiVo/List" style guide... so I have always used the DirecTV/Grid style guide.

When I use the Guide, I am normally just intrested in what is on "now"... not what is on for the next 24 hours on the one channel.

[tstarn]

People forget the first Tivo's had issues.
Tivo's were not and are still not perfect.

Over the years they have almost "prefected" the devices, but now that they are adding all kinds of functionality, they are having issues.

Its the convergence of multiple uses that hurts the reliability of products, that and short development cylcles (need to produce a result after all) and of course, the lack of resources and testing.

But the biggest problem is YOU

John wants commerical skip, Joe wants 60 sec skip, Mike doesn't want either.
Molly wants a blue background with PIP in the top right, Sally wants PIP in the bottom left and the display to be in Magenta.
The wife wants it to record ONLY Desperate Housewives when she misses it and the husband wants it to record every car show on TV except that "crappy" one.
The kids want Spongebob only on Saturday night at 8PM and on thursday at 2PM.
Grandma wants 60 minutes to be recorded on Saturday beause she has bridge on Sunday.
Granpa wants it to record the time he won that swimming championship at LaSalle in '42.

Everybody wants functionality and it all adds up to potential problems, bugs, issues and complaints.
These companies aren't out to make your days miserable, its just a side effect.
Oh, the poor providers. Boo-hoo. Sad what they have to go through to make customers happy.

Are you kidding? Wanting basic DVR functionality and not getting it is the user/buyer's fault? Man, you have your priorities ass-backwards. On a basic level, people just want it to work. Forget the bells and whistles. I think I can say with certainty that if the thing performed on a basic level (like getting recordings so you can watch them reliably) for nearly everyone, this whole HR20 stinks v. HR20 is great debate would be a much less hostile battlefield, reduced the FF jerkiness issue, or some other esoteric DVR conflict/difference of opinion. Sure, some people want bells and whistles, but we're not talking about that here. At least that's not the main issue.

Sure, blame the consumer. Makes a lot of sense. Glad most companies aren't taking that approach to selling their goods and services (though some clearly do, and they have you cheerleading for them too).

Now I've heard it all.

[Earl Bonovich]

You're kidding me right ? You do realize that it freezes up, and can't record Sunday ticket / NHL Center Ice.. How is that my problem again ?

The part you chopped fromt he quote, explains what the poser ment by "YOU". Each one of uses the system in a different way.

So if there are 150,000 HR20 users... the system is being used in 150,000 different ways. Sure, the vast majority of the "steps" are the same accross those systems... but the one difference (different TV, failing multiswitch, bad wire, low batteries, IR interference, temperature, combination of scheduled recordings, locals in that area, and so)......... can lead to a problem that wasn't caught in the "lab".

Then mix in just the law of averages with consumer electronics, that flat out some of them are going to be BAD.... nature of mass production... sure it significantly attempted to be avoided, but it does happen.

So is it "your" fault that ST/NHL can't record... probably not, it is most likely the software. (Note, there is a report that NHL has worked under the new release)

So is it "your" fault that the system hangs... no, that is the software's responsibility to not hang... but you may have found the 1 combination that causes tha software to fail.... that no one else ever tried...

Should the HR20 be more robust and handle more of these issues gracefully... most definently... but it doesn't change the fact of how the system works "today", right at this moment..... All we can do is provide "OUR" feedback from the "YOU" cases, so DirecTV can understand how "YOU" use the unit.... so they can make sure that "YOU" as their customer can get back to using the system the way "YOU" want to....

[ShapeGSX]

I have never liked the "TiVo/List" style guide... so I have always used the DirecTV/Grid style guide.

When I use the Guide, I am normally just intrested in what is on "now"... not what is on for the next 24 hours on the one channel.

That is what the Tivo guide shows you in the left column. What is on "now."

Perhaps the Tivo guide is faster than the DirecTV guide on all platforms because Tivo coded it and DirecTV guys didn't. ;)

Yes, that's a challenge, DirecTV guys! :D

[Earl Bonovich]

That is what the Tivo guide shows you in the left column. What is on "now."

Perhaps the Tivo guide is faster than the DirecTV guide on all platforms because Tivo coded it and DirecTV guys didn't. ;)

Yes, that's a challenge, DirecTV guys! :D

Sure on the top row... but I like being able to see the 10ish channells at once on the screen. Just more natural to me I guess.

Or because it only pulls up "24" rows worth of data from the flat file (which could be stored in the manner on the hard drive), vs caching up all the rows for all the pages, over 3 30 minute time slots...

:;

[tiger2005]

I have to agree with ShapGSX, I have used the TiVo style guide for about 6 years on a Sat-t60 and it smokes the HR20s guide, and there is a lot more information on the tivo guide screen.

I totally agree. I prefer the TiVo style guide for both the much faster speed and the format! I will learn to live with the DirecTV style guide but I'll never love it, even if they were to increase its speed. I honestly don't see why D* won't give us a choice in this regard.

[Earl Bonovich]

I totally agree. I prefer the TiVo style guide for both the much faster speed and the format! I will learn to live with the DirecTV style guide but I'll never love it, even if they were to increase its speed. I honestly don't see why D* won't give us a choice in this regard.

It is not as "fluid" as the TiVo style.
But you can highlight the channel number in the Guide... and hit info, to at least list all the shows for that channel.

If they could add channel up and down, while in that mode... it would come close.

[tstarn]

The part you chopped fromt he quote, explains what the poser ment by "YOU". Each one of uses the system in a different way.

So if there are 150,000 HR20 users... the system is being used in 150,000 different ways. Sure, the vast majority of the "steps" are the same accross those systems... but the one difference (different TV, failing multiswitch, bad wire, low batteries, IR interference, temperature, combination of scheduled recordings, locals in that area, and so)......... can lead to a problem that wasn't caught in the "lab".

Then mix in just the law of averages with consumer electronics, that flat out some of them are going to be BAD.... nature of mass production... sure it significantly attempted to be avoided, but it does happen.

So is it "your" fault that ST/NHL can't record... probably not, it is most likely the software. (Note, there is a report that NHL has worked under the new release)

So is it "your" fault that the system hangs... no, that is the software's responsibility to not hang... but you may have found the 1 combination that causes tha software to fail.... that no one else ever tried...

Should the HR20 be more robust and handle more of these issues gracefully... most definently... but it doesn't change the fact of how the system works "today", right at this moment..... All we can do is provide "OUR" feedback from the "YOU" cases, so DirecTV can understand how "YOU" use the unit.... so they can make sure that "YOU" as their customer can get back to using the system the way "YOU" want to....
Interesting explanation, Earl. But the tone of that post doesn't reflect your very nice, gentle attempt to make it all better. Nice try, but that post is just more cynicism/criticism aimed at people who just want their HR20 to work as advertised. Blaming the user for the myriad of issues the HR20 has presented. I love it.

[clay_w]

I don't know why the 30s Slip is slower then 3x... I have been told that they are looking at the 30s SLIP in the next-next release (the one after 0xEB). As the 30s on the R15 is pretty quick.

As for the guide being slow. Not sure what is going on on your HR20... but my guide is definently faster then anything I had on my DTivos, and light years faster then my HR10. One thing to try is making a favorite list, I found that speeds up the guide pretty good.

When I first introduced the HR20 to the wife the other night I had to prepare her "now, this is the one thing that I don't like as much as the DTivo...." and when I demonstrated the "slip" when a commercial came on she said "you have got to be kiddiing me, right?" while staring me down like I committed a crime, lol.

[Earl Bonovich]

Interesting explanation, Earl. But the tone of that post doesn't reflect your very nice, gentle attempt to make it all better. Nice try, but that post is just more cynicism/criticism aimed at people who just want their HR20 to work as advertised. Blaming the user for the myriad of issues the HR20 has presented. I love it.

Just goes to show how people can interpret typed words in different ways.

[tstarn]

Just goes to show how people can interpret typed words in different ways.

Not really. I think gormly was pretty clear in the tone of his post, like using upper case, and his last line says it all. He's clearly blaming users for asking for too much, and getting stiffed as a result. On this one, interpretation isn't even an issue. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

[btmoore]

It is not as "fluid" as the TiVo style.
But you can highlight the channel number in the Guide... and hit info, to at least list all the shows for that channel.

If they could add channel up and down, while in that mode... it would come close.

"highlight the channel number in the Guide... and hit info"

While it is close to the Tivo Style guide for one channel it is still slow slow slow and their is a bug with series recordings in that version of the guide. When you hit R once you get the red recording R circle, if you hit it twice, nothing looks like it happened, but it actually did set up a series recording but you need to do something that creates a screen refresh. (how they don't catch this in their "testing" I will never understand)

The grid style is just an outmoded way of doing a guide, it is not well thought out for DVR style usage, it is more appropriate for Non DVR usage. The TiVO style guide guide is wonderful, on the left your channels, and on the right the lineup for hours of what ever is programmed on that channel. You just cursor over to the lineup and you can quickly page down the schedule for 2 weeks and it is extremely fast. Not bad for a box that is over 6 years old, you would think that 6 years later they could make a guide that was at least as fast.

[DPatrick]

Long time reader, first time poster...

We are 1 1/2 weeks into our HR20 and moved the 10-250 into the bedroom and it's been good and bad, mostly due to the learning curve, but we've definitely seen some of the bugs. Funny that people are mentioning "the wife doesn't like this, the wife doesn't like that". Feelin' that pain myself.

Overall I really like it, but it has dropped a few recordings when the actual record light was on, and getting used to the FF has been rough. Of course it was the wife's show so it was doubly frustrating (hers and therefore mine). Yesterday it recorded Oprah (told you it was the wife's) and recorded nothing but a grey screen. Came home from work and the unit was fine so I don't know what was up with that.

One more observation I haven't seen much mention of, but the heat from the HR20 is much greater than the 10-250. Although it still doesn't rival Charter's Moxi HD egg poacher/pancake griddle, it does run noticebly warmer.

[ShapeGSX]

Sure on the top row... but I like being able to see the 10ish channells at once on the screen. Just more natural to me I guess.

Or because it only pulls up "24" rows worth of data from the flat file (which could be stored in the manner on the hard drive), vs caching up all the rows for all the pages, over 3 30 minute time slots...

:;

The Tivo guide shows more channels on the screen at once than the HR20 guide, actually. And that was quite a trick, given that the HR20 has a whole lot more resolution to work with.

The Tivo guide shows "what's on right now" for 8 channels at a time. And it shows the next 8 shows on the channel you have scrolled to.

The HR20 guide only shows 6 channels and maybe the next 2 shows on every channel on the screen.

http://www.iwantptv.com/images/tivo/TiVO_Guide.jpg

Given that you like to see "10ish channels on the screen" and that you are "normally just intrested in what is on 'now'", I am surprised that you didn't like the Tivo guide more. It is faster. It shows you 8 shows that are on right now instead of just 6 on the HR20. 8 is closer to "10ish" than 6 in my book. :)

[Earl Bonovich]

The Tivo guide shows more channels on the screen at once than the HR20 guide, actually. And that was quite a trick, given that the HR20 has a whole lot more resolution to work with.

The Tivo guide shows "what's on right now" for 8 channels at a time. And it shows the next 8 shows on the channel you have scrolled to.

The HR20 guide only shows 6 channels and maybe the next 2 shows on every channel on the screen.

http://www.iwantptv.com/images/tivo/TiVO_Guide.jpg

Given that you like to see "10ish channels on the screen" and that you are "normally just intrested in what is on 'now'", I am surprised that you didn't like the Tivo guide more. It is faster. It shows you 8 shows that are on right now instead of just 6 on the HR20. 8 is closer to "10ish" than 6 in my book. :)

But I still have to scroll accross the 8 channels, to see what is on "next"... if say I am looking at it at 8:25 and want to see what is starting at 8:30... since my show at 8:00 just ended, and I got a couple minutes to find my next program.

But ultimately... I simply don't spend that much time in the guide anyway.
95% of my viewing is previously recorded material.

[ShapeGSX]

But I still have to scroll accross the 8 channels, to see what is on "next"... if say I am looking at it at 8:25 and want to see what is starting at 8:30... since my show at 8:00 just ended, and I got a couple minutes to find my next program.

Actually, you just hit the fast forward button once and you will see what is on in the next half hour block for all the channels on the screen.

It would be nice if the HR20 had a left/right screen scroll instead of having to hit left/right a few times to get to the next 1.5 hour time block. +/-12 hours using red/green is too far in most cases.

[tiger2005]

It is not as "fluid" as the TiVo style.
But you can highlight the channel number in the Guide... and hit info, to at least list all the shows for that channel.

If they could add channel up and down, while in that mode... it would come close.

Thanks, Earl. I'm aware of this method, but as btmoore has mentioned this workaround is pretty much unusable at times because it takes FOREVER to bring up the information as well as the bugs for recording via SeriesLink.

[Earl Bonovich]

It would be nice if the HR20 had a left/right screen scroll instead of having to hit left/right a few times to get to the next 1.5 hour time block. +/-12 hours using red/green is too far in most cases.


I would agree to that.. but I would rather see them tweek it to fully use the 16:9 displays, and show maybe 3 hours at a time, instead of just 1.5

[ShapeGSX]

I would agree to that.. but I would rather see them tweek it to fully use the 16:9 displays, and show maybe 3 hours at a time, instead of just 1.5

Oh please yes! It pains me to see so much wasted space.

[tiger2005]

The Tivo guide shows more channels on the screen at once than the HR20 guide, actually. And that was quite a trick, given that the HR20 has a whole lot more resolution to work with.

The Tivo guide shows "what's on right now" for 8 channels at a time. And it shows the next 8 shows on the channel you have scrolled to.

The HR20 guide only shows 6 channels and maybe the next 2 shows on every channel on the screen.

http://www.iwantptv.com/images/tivo/TiVO_Guide.jpg

Given that you like to see "10ish channels on the screen" and that you are "normally just intrested in what is on 'now'", I am surprised that you didn't like the Tivo guide more. It is faster. It shows you 8 shows that are on right now instead of just 6 on the HR20. 8 is closer to "10ish" than 6 in my book. :)

WOW! Seeing this Guide again makes me wish even more that D* would bring it back in the HR20. I have TiVo boxes upstairs, but I don't really even think about the Guides. Now that I am, well ... I'm definitely going to have issues going home tonight and using the D* guide. :(

[btmoore]

Oh please yes! It pains me to see so much wasted space.

I agree D* guide paradigm appears to be caught in the 80s. Very retro, makes me want to safety dance.

[Andrew_J_M]

I have never liked the Tivo style guide, probably because my first DVR was an UltimateTV. When using a favorites list with the grid guide I can quickly see what is coming up in the next couple of hours on the 10 or so channels that I watch most. Also with the UTV and HR20 I can see at glance what is set to record and what conflicts there may be.

The grid guide on ny SD Tivos and the HR10 are both slower than the grid on HR20, but it could be faster with some intelligent background processing anticipating the next scroll.

[jkc120]

-) Actually if you do press INFO, you will see if is a Repeat, provided the guide data states it as such.... but as compared to the TiVo equivilent, yes... it is not as detailed


Why can't they add that as an indicator in the guide and such, so we don't have to hit the info button? Is there a technical reason? I hope they add this.


-) The search results do specifically list the Channel Number next to the episode name. Not sure which search was done to tell you any different... Unless he is referring to the first search screen, which is just a filter by name... the search isn't performed until highlight the show. Again, a difference between TiVo and the DVR+ line


I'm not sure, but I think they are talking about the fact that SD and HD locals both show up in the search as the number. You have to click into them to find out which is the HD channel and which isn't. It'd be nice if it showed 10 KCRA / 10 SA10 on that main page so you didn't have to guess which is which. Although I guess if it's in the same order as the guide, the HD one would be first.


-) He is correct... all the results from the Series Link don't show up... that is because of the background process that runs later on to fully populate the list. Again, another difference between TiVo and the DVR+ Line (and also one of the reasons why you can schedule a Series Link faster on a DVR+ then Tivo)


Yep, a trade off here. Though frankly I'd rather wait the 30-45 seconds it takes tivo to calculate things and have it fully updated rather than have an instant series link addition and have to wait an unspecified amount of time to have them all show up.


-) You can delete a series link, without episodes. it... double dash in the prioritizer


That doesn't work for me, though it may be that I'm using a harmony remote.


-) FF/REW is slow... compared to what? Standard Play? or to the TiVo series.


It's slow relative to the Tivo. Even at 3x, it takes almost twice as long to fast forward through the same amount of time as the R10.


-) Pressing Play is a total guess.... I wouldn't call it a total guess at all... It again it is something you need to learn with the unit, just like you had to learn with a TiVo to compensate for it's auto compensation. But, yes... the play start needs to be more instantaneous then it currently is.


Yep, I've dialed it in a bit. I like the 3x -> 2x -> back back method. :)


-) You can skip blocks (skip to tick, jump to end)... and 4x is in the works.


My fear is that while 4x may provide faster FFWD, it will also make it that much more difficult to stop at the end of the commercials. As it is, if I use 3x and hit replay as soon as I see the show, I need to hit replay about 7 times to get back to the start. With 4x FFWD, it's going to be a major PITA to hit replay what 10 times? ugh.

[Blitz68]

Why can't they add that as an indicator in the guide and such, so we don't have to hit the info button? Is there a technical reason? I hope they add this.



I'm not sure, but I think they are talking about the fact that SD and HD locals both show up in the search as the number. You have to click into them to find out which is the HD channel and which isn't. It'd be nice if it showed 10 KCRA / 10 SA10 on that main page so you didn't have to guess which is which. Although I guess if it's in the same order as the guide, the HD one would be first.



Yep, a trade off here. Though frankly I'd rather wait the 30-45 seconds it takes tivo to calculate things and have it fully updated rather than have an instant series link addition and have to wait an unspecified amount of time to have them all show up.



That doesn't work for me, though it may be that I'm using a harmony remote.



It's slow relative to the Tivo. Even at 3x, it takes almost twice as long to fast forward through the same amount of time as the R10.



Yep, I've dialed it in a bit. I like the 3x -> 2x -> back back method. :)



My fear is that while 4x may provide faster FFWD, it will also make it that much more difficult to stop at the end of the commercials. As it is, if I use 3x and hit replay as soon as I see the show, I need to hit replay about 7 times to get back to the start. With 4x FFWD, it's going to be a major PITA to hit replay what 10 times? ugh.


Growing pains. We are all feeling them. We just need to be calm it will all workout.

If the HR20 was out before the HR10 people would be complaining about that also.

[bwaldron]

We just need to be calm it will all workout.

Given that D* has no track record in producing reliable DVRs (or making MPEG4 work, for that matter), there is valid reason for skepticism.

I want them to get things right, and it's critical to their business plan that they do, but until that time, I take a "show me" attitude as a customer (who has been with D* since 97, in case that matters).

[Radio Enginerd]

One more observation I haven't seen much mention of, but the heat from the HR20 is much greater than the 10-250. Although it still doesn't rival Charter's Moxi HD egg poacher/pancake griddle, it does run noticebly warmer.

Welcome to the board!

Not sure where you have your HR-20 installed but I purchased a Targus Chill Mat for mine and it seems to help lower the operating temp. I think I've even seen improved performance and stability but it could just be my perception. It set me back $20 and if anything it should improve longevity of my HR-20. Here's the link in case you're curious, best of luck.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4216991

[bonscott87]

Re: The Tivo style guide.

I like it too and prefer it. But has anyone thought there is a reason it's called the "Tivo" style guide and no other DVR (that I'm aware of) does something similar? Perhaps a Tivo patent or something that needs to be licensed from Tivo. ;)

[bwaldron]

Welcome to the board!

Not sure where you have your HR-20 installed but I purchased a Targus Chill Mat for mine and it seems to help lower the operating temp. I think I've even seen improved performance and stability but it could just be my perception. It set me back $20 and if anything it should improve longevity of my HR-20. Here's the link in case you're curious, best of luck.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4216991

How quiet/noisy is that cooler?

[sigma1914]

I can't understand why people are soooooo angry over FF and REW speeds. What's so important in your lives that you can't stand waiting a few seconds? And then to complain the unit doesn't have auto jump back live Tivo...IT'S NOT & NEVER WILL BE TIVO, GET OVER IT OR GO BACK TO TIVO.

[Marcia_Brady]

We just need to be calm it will all workout.



Calm, yes.

But certainly, we need to avoid the "let's just kick back with a blade of grass in our mouth cuz they'll git er done sooner or later" mentality or we will go the way of the R15.

And that really will not be acceptable IMO.

[Earl Bonovich]

I can't understand why people are soooooo angry over FF and REW speeds. What's so important in your lives that you can't stand waiting a few seconds? And then to complain the unit doesn't have auto jump back live Tivo...IT'S NOT & NEVER WILL BE TIVO, GET OVER IT OR GO BACK TO TIVO.

As the phrase from Saturday Night Live goes...

Simmer Down Now... Simmer Down...

Relax... it is just a SAT Discussion forum...
There are going to be people that come here to vent, who have different opinions.... and that is okay.... If the FF/RW speed is what make people choose a TiVo over the HR20... so be it...

It is not our place to tell people what criteria they have on their choice of DVR.

[btmoore]

I can't understand why people are soooooo angry over FF and REW speeds. What's so important in your lives that you can't stand waiting a few seconds? And then to complain the unit doesn't have auto jump back live Tivo...IT'S NOT & NEVER WILL BE TIVO, GET OVER IT OR GO BACK TO TIVO.

Wow, so in your world it is not ok to compare one product to another? So you would prefer that feedback is not given to D* or shared with others about their product and services? When they provide a new product and it does not compare well from a feature, function or even reliability standpoint, don't we have the right as consumers to express our feeling? Don't think that this very closed minded? I don't understand your frustration to the point of being insulting and demeaning just because there are people here who want to express what they see as weakness in the HR20. Why are you so emotional about people expressing their frustration with a piece of equipment?

[tiger2005]

I can't understand why people are soooooo angry over FF and REW speeds. What's so important in your lives that you can't stand waiting a few seconds? And then to complain the unit doesn't have auto jump back live Tivo...IT'S NOT & NEVER WILL BE TIVO, GET OVER IT OR GO BACK TO TIVO.

Perhaps you are missing the point that the 'jumpback' is a valuable feature and not everyone understands that its a TiVo patent. However, the FF and REW speeds are not very good and the point is that if TiVo can do it, D* should also be able to.

[sigma1914]

I'm not angry or upset, but people are over FF & REW speed. It's just the Tivo/HR20 comparisons are adding fuel to fires of peoples hate for the HR20. I just think people should not be so upset over something as simple as having to see commercials fast forward by them. If members feel I was demeaning, then I'm sorry.

[bwaldron]

It's just the Tivo/HR20 comparisons are adding fuel to fires of peoples hate for the HR20.

Well, people who have experience with the previous Tivo DVRs are quite naturally going to compare the HR20 with what they know and are used to. Pointing out areas where the HR20 doesn't match up (in their opinion) doesn't mean that there aren't other new features that they like better. The fact that D* decided to remove Tivo as an option for subscribers adds a bit of fuel to the fire.

Oh, and if you're not angry/upset, it's best not to use all-caps...most folks interpret that as "shouting" of sorts :-)

[tiger2005]

I'm not angry or upset, but people are over FF & REW speed. It's just the Tivo/HR20 comparisons are adding fuel to fires of peoples hate for the HR20. I just think people should not be so upset over something as simple as having to see commercials fast forward by them. If members feel I was demeaning, then I'm sorry.

About 6 months ago I would have told you that if anyone wanted to take my TiVo for an HR20 they would have to pry it out of my dead hands. Now, I would be one of the first people that would tell you that I was pleasantly surprised by the HR20 when I first received it and that I actually think its a pretty nice unit. I have had various problems with the unit, BBC issues, missed recordings, etc. but that doesn't mean that overall this unit will be pretty slick going forward. However, in order to make this unit a better product there are things that D* will need to improve besides the obvious issue of reliability. I don't think many people here have bashed the HR20 vs. the TiVo, they are simply saying they want some of TiVo's best non-patented features to be included in the HR20 to make it a truly outstanding unit. Such as, DUAL BUFFERS!!!

[tstarn]

How quiet/noisy is that cooler?

I have one too (bought it for the H20) and you can't even hear it.

[btmoore]

About 6 months ago I would have told you that if anyone wanted to take my TiVo for an HR20 they would have to pry it out of my dead hands. Now, I would be one of the first people that would tell you that I was pleasantly surprised by the HR20 when I first received it and that I actually think its a pretty nice unit. I have had various problems with the unit, BBC issues, missed recordings, etc. but that doesn't mean that overall this unit will be pretty slick going forward. However, in order to make this unit a better product there are things that D* will need to improve besides the obvious issue of reliability. I don't think many people here have bashed the HR20 vs. the TiVo, they are simply saying they want some of TiVo's best non-patented features to be included in the HR20 to make it a truly outstanding unit. Such as, DUAL BUFFERS!!!

I don't disagree. The HR20 has potential.

BUT...

The reliability problems must be solved. I am currently @ 2 lost recording with the Partial bug and I am using 0xEB.

If they can't fix the recording and reliability issues, all the features of the HR20 is just lipstick on a pig.

Assuming they can fix these problems, there are other features and performance issues that should be solved. For me I find it crazy that my 6 year old sat-t60s guide is a formula 1 race car compared the the slow guide in the HR20, sure it may be faster than other guides, but shouldn't the guide in this box be faster than a 6 year old DVR? Then there are the features like the Dual buffers and working OTA.

If this HR20 was functionally reliable, had dual buffers, ota and a faster guide, I think I would be rather happy.

[tstarn]

About 6 months ago I would have told you that if anyone wanted to take my TiVo for an HR20 they would have to pry it out of my dead hands. Now, I would be one of the first people that would tell you that I was pleasantly surprised by the HR20 when I first received it and that I actually think its a pretty nice unit. I have had various problems with the unit, BBC issues, missed recordings, etc. but that doesn't mean that overall this unit will be pretty slick going forward. However, in order to make this unit a better product there are things that D* will need to improve besides the obvious issue of reliability. I don't think many people here have bashed the HR20 vs. the TiVo, they are simply saying they want some of TiVo's best non-patented features to be included in the HR20 to make it a truly outstanding unit. Such as, DUAL BUFFERS!!!

Bingo! Reliability #1. Then a few extras. And we're all happy campers. Only a few people are married to Tivo, but the rest of us what to get back to real life, and stop worrying whether or not the NFL game or movie will be there when we hit the My Playlist button.

[sigma1914]

I loved my Tivos, too. I do miss somethings. Maybe I'm more laid back about the differences & accepting of the HR20. I have 2 rooms with units...1s been crappy, awaiting restock for 3rd unit, but the other has been awesome. *hides from HR20 God's who will now curse me*

[tstarn]

I loved my Tivos, too. I do miss somethings. Maybe I'm more laid back about the differences & accepting of the HR20. I have 2 rooms with units...1s been crappy, awaiting restock for 3rd unit, but the other has been awesome. *hides from HR20 God's who will now curse me*

Living dangerously, sigma. Quick, retract that last statement.

[bwaldron]

I have one too (bought it for the H20) and you can't even hear it.

Thanks. Think I'll pick one up.

[Andrew_J_M]

When I first gave up my UTV for a D* Tivo (actually 2 D* Tivos as that was effectively cheaper than a single UTV) I occasionally visited the TivoCommunity forum for advise etc, but soon gave up because soon some people realised I didn't like the Tivo UI and they would flame anything I said. A common comment when I asked a question about the guide would be "you don't need to use the guide with a Tivo" which I never understood. I never found the Tivo suggestions to have a real use either, and as for using that peanut in the dark ......

Constructive comparisions between DVRs can't be bad - whether they are Tivos, UTVs or cable and FIOS boxes. I used to work for a car company and whenever a major rival brought out a new model there would be one in the workshop with tech design guys going over it looking for what's good or bad with it. I'm sure the DVR manufacturers do just the same. But of course the HR20 is now designed, I don't expect that there will be any major changes to it in the near future apart from bug fixes and easy cosmetic changes. I hope that the design team of the next box are reading these forums and taking note.

[cybrsurfer]

The HR20 has software issues which are going to be corrected soon.:D

The HR20 is a good quality unit, it has Sata, eSata, Intel ViiV compatible, USB/Ethernet networking capable, and many more features that Tivo doesn't have. The hardware if you remember is good quality also, if you read Earls complete report which shows many pictures of the unit internally. So it's clear the unit is not cheap. I understand it is not working to perfect levels now, but it will be. The unit can record 2 satellite and also 1 OTA at the same time for a total of three programs at once when OTA is enabled. So it does have good features.

[RCY]

But it is not a 30s SKIP... not advertised as such. It is a 30s fixed FF.

Call me when TiVo enables SKIP as a default feature (not a backdoor), and when they add to their list of features that you can SKIP advertisements.
(in reference to D* bowing down)

Dish has 30 second skip "as a default feature" for the 622. And D* always had the option of making 30 second skip a "backdoor" too.

[Deevan]

Related article:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/10/any-problems-with-your-directv-hr20/

[bwaldron]

The unit can record 2 satellite and also 1 OTA at the same time for a total of three programs at once when OTA is enabled.

Don't think so :confused:

[btmoore]

The HR20 has software issues which are going to be corrected soon.:D

The HR20 is a good quality unit, it has Sata, eSata, Intel ViiV compatible, USB/Ethernet networking capable, and many more features that Tivo doesn't have. The hardware if you remember is good quality also, if you read Earls complete report which shows many pictures of the unit internally. So it's clear the unit is not cheap. I understand it is not working to perfect levels now, but it will be. The unit can record 2 satellite and also 1 OTA at the same time for a total of three programs at once when OTA is enabled. So it does have good features.

First, how do you know the software will be corrected soon? I can confirm it still has the Partial bug which means it does not record with reliability.

How can you call it a good unit if it is a DVR and it can't record reliably?

the eSata is unofficial supported at this time, which IMO is not much different that someone installing a drive in their tivo.

Non of the other features that you discussed are are out so they are for now vaporware.

The HR20 has potential but right now it is unfulfilled potential, at least until it can be trusted to accurately record what you tell it to. So what we are left with is a buggy DVR product that might be fixed at some point in time.

[jbstix]

The HR20 has software issues which are going to be corrected soon.:D
The unit can record 2 satellite and also 1 OTA at the same time for a total of three programs at once when OTA is enabled. So it does have good features.

Earl made it pretty clear that 3 recordings at a time will NOT be possible. http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=710088&postcount=34
IMO, no need to mislead anyone just browsing throught this thread, or any other...

[cybrsurfer]

Earl made it pretty clear that 3 recordings at a time will NOT be possible. http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=710088&postcount=34
IMO, no need to mislead anyone just browsing throught this thread, or any other...

:D

[jbstix]

:D

I also respect others opinions... good or bad :)
When it comes to stuff like this, Earl doesn't post his "Opinion" he posts the plain facts.
I would only suggest that when you make a post about a feature that doesn't exist or that will NOT be possible in the future, you post that opinion with a disclaimer for the casual reader.
Again, not about opinions, just don't want to mislead anyone...there are enough issues with the HR20 as it is, no need to add to the confusion.

[btmoore]

I also respect others opinions... good or bad :)
When it comes to stuff like this, Earl doesn't post his "Opinion" he posts the plain facts.

Here is a list of opinions from Earl just from this thread:

Some things I don't agree with in the article:

-)...

I have never liked the "TiVo/List" style guide...

Sure on the top row... but I like being able to see the 10ish channells at once on the screen. Just more natural to me I guess...

... If they could add channel up and down, while in that mode... it would come close.

I would agree to that.. but I would rather see them tweek it to fully use the 16:9 displays, and show maybe 3 hours at a time, instead of just 1.5

[cybrsurfer]

Here is a list of opinions from Earl just from this thread:

:)

[jbstix]

Sorry you spent so much time copy/pasting all those snippets. Really no need.

I never said Earl doesn't post his opinions.
If you read carefully, I stated "When it come to stuff like this" meaning non existent and/or never to existing features.
I don't think Earl is 100% correct all the time concerning his opinions, but this is about a "feature" not a GUI issue, like or dislike. I do believe what he says over the next on stuff like this. Features that exist have nothing to do with opinions.

Maybe I should have been a little more clear.
Anyway, I would love to be able to record 3 things at one time, just from what's been stated no need to get excited about that being a possibility.

[cybrsurfer]

Sorry you spent so much time copy/pasting all those snippets. Really no need.

I never said Earl doesn't post his opinions.
If you read carefully, I stated "When it come to stuff like this" meaning non existent and/or never to existing features.
I don't think Earl is 100% correct all the time concerning his opinions, but this is about a "feature" not a GUI issue, like or dislike. I do believe what he says over the next on stuff like this.

Maybe I should have been a little more clear.
Anyway, I would love to be able to record 3 things at one time, just from what's been stated no need to get excited about that being a possibility.

I'm only basing what I said on reading the owners manual. Sorry but the owners manual does say that you will be able to record two satellite and one OTA when enabled late 2006. I'm not trying to create controversy. It's really not my opinion, it's what I have read.

No person is 100% accurate all the time, and most members here speak of what they read or base it on opinion, and specify if they do.

[btmoore]

I did read carefully, you were not explicit and stated a non-fact as a truth, regardless:

Sorry you spent so much time copy/pasting all those snippets. Really no need.

I never said Earl doesn't post his opinions.
If you read carefully, I stated "When it come to stuff like this" meaning non existent and/or never to existing features. .

Ok, I will just post one example from this thread of where Earl posted an opinion about a non existent feature in the HR20.

I have never liked the "TiVo/List" style guide... so I have always used the DirecTV/Grid style guide.

When I use the Guide, I am normally just intrested in what is on "now"... not what is on for the next 24 hours on the one channel.

BTW I am yanking your cord a bit. ;)

[jbstix]

I'm only basing what I said on reading the owners manual. Sorry but the owners manual does say that you will be able to record two satellite and one OTA when enabled late 2006. I'm not trying to create controversy. It's really not my opinion, it's what I have read.

No person is 100% accurate all the time, and most members here speak of what they read or base it on opinion, and specify if they do.

Gotcha...
I know it's in the manual, and that issue was covered in the thread you started about 3 recordings being possible. Like I said, I'd love for the manual to be correct and Earl be wrong ;)
Stability, reliability and the option to record 3 shows at once would put this box over the edge for me !
No controversy here... just good 'ol forum discussion. :)

[jbstix]

I did read carefully, you were not explicit and stated a non-fact as a truth, regardless:



Ok, I will just post one example from this thread of where Earl posted an opinion about a non existent feature in the HR20

Let me try to be even more clear - what we are talking about is a feature that is listed in the HR20 manual, but has been stated by Earl not to be accurate and will never be added. I don't care about the opinions discussion anymore, that was not the point of my post(s).
All I was trying to say is that Earl is by far the best link we have with what will and will not be a feature on the HR20.
Unless others have better D* contacts are willing to spend the time and effort he does on the threads.
Bottom line, either D* screwed up and that is a huge misprint in the manual, or Earl is wrong and it will indeed be a feature when OTA is enabled. But until that time, it's better to be sceptical of this feature than count on it or list it as a done deal.

Return of cord yank... ;)

[Earl Bonovich]

Holy smokes... these last 10 posts or so was like reading a tennis match.

Back and forth; Back and forth

I try to make a very clear distinction in my posts.... When I am posting "information"/"facts" that I know about the unit or have receive... I do so, and I don't try to blur it.... Maybe re-state it in a different way to apply the conversation..

I also do post my opinions, but also try to make that as clear as possible as well. If you are ever in doubt on which is which, ask me... I clarrify. Because if you are doubting it... someone else is.

And I can tell you with 100% certainty... when OTA is activated... there will be a NET total of 2 records. Regardless what it says in the manual, or you have heard else where.

[Marcia_Brady]

Return of cord yank... ;)





Ah yes....the sequel from the original "Cord Yank." And soon to be followed by "Cord Yank: Unwound."

Good ones they are.


:)

[cybrsurfer]

Holy smokes... these last 10 posts or so was like reading a tennis match.

Back and forth; Back and forth

I try to make a very clear distinction in my posts.... When I am posting "information"/"facts" that I know about the unit or have receive... I do so, and I don't try to blur it.... Maybe re-state it in a different way to apply the conversation..

I also do post my opinions, but also try to make that as clear as possible as well. If you are ever in doubt on which is which, ask me... I clarrify. Because if you are doubting it... someone else is.

And I can tell you with 100% certainty... when OTA is activated... there will be a NET total of 2 records. Regardless what it says in the manual, or you have heard else where.

I have spoke to many advanced tech support reps whom all concur that what the manual says is accurate. I have put doubt on what they have told me, but they still insist that you can record 3 total (2 sat & 1 OTA).

I'm not suggesting that your wrong Earl, but it's possible that the manual is correct. I hope the manual is correct.:D

[jbstix]

And I can tell you with 100% certainty... when OTA is activated... there will be a NET total of 2 records. Regardless what it says in the manual, or you have heard else where.

It can't be put any more plainly than that.. Thanks for reconfirming what you alreday confirmed in the other thread.
I too would love the ability to record 3 shows, but it's not going to happen. That's why I have 2 HR20's side by side in my HT room :D

[bwaldron]

I have spoke to many advanced tech support reps whom all concur that what the manual says is accurate. I have put doubt on what they have told me, but they still insist that you can record 3 total (2 sat & 1 OTA).


Not to be cruel, but I'm not going to take what any D* support reps, even the advanced techs, say without a large grain of salt.

Much as I'd love that feature, I will be shocked to see it. I've gotta go w/ Earl and his sources.

[Earl Bonovich]

In one very important area... The Advance Tech's, the 1st Level CSRs, and I have one thing very much in common.

We are only as good as our information is......