HR20 - ATSC/OTA Discussion

[Earl Bonovich]

All the discussion on the activation, and the FAQ/Setup thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=71203

[spidey]

Bump

well when you said wait a few days i decided not to buy that seperate receiver. Hopefully sw load will arrive in raleigh before the weekend. Thanx for the hints Earl :-)

[Strejcek]

Earl said it will be an extended rollout. God I hope it is not going to be as extended as the 6.3 update for the HR10. Earl any news as to if the rollout is going to be painfully slow like the HR10?

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl said it will be an extended rollout. God I hope it is not going to be as extended as the 6.3 update for the HR10. Earl any news as to if the rollout is going to be painfully slow like the HR10?

It is going to be SLOW at first, then move quickly after that. I don't expect it to take as long as 6.3 did for the HR10

[Strejcek]

I hope so, took me 6 weeks to get HR10 update.

[Earl Bonovich]

I hope so, took me 6 weeks to get HR10 update.

Heck... hopefully in 6 weeks we get another release, with some other new features... :)

:backtotop

[CUIllini]

Heck... hopefully in 6 weeks we get another release, with some other new features... :)

:backtotop

Earl, since we are geographically close, and I am new to the world of D* DVR, can you give me an idea how long it has taken past slow rollouts to reach the midwest? Not looking for precision, just a guide. No MPEG4 in CU, so I'm excited to receive the new release.

Thanks!

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl, since we are geographically close, and I am new to the world of D* DVR, can you give me an idea how long it has taken past slow rollouts to reach the midwest? Not looking for precision, just a guide. No MPEG4 in CU, so I'm excited to receive the new release.

Thanks!

This release is going to be a little longer then past ones, but you probably have it in ~ a week. Hopefully, comes Monday I'll be able to narrow it down some... but no promises

[Ed Campbell]

Is "Info" going to tell me I am good to go for OTA -- or should I watch the Blue Eye brightness to tell me I've received an update?

[After Earl answered] -- I shouldn't post till thoroughly awake. Of course, this takes another Update and all the usual conditions prevail. Duh!

[Earl Bonovich]

Is "Info" going to tell me I am good to go for OTA -- or should I watch the Blue Eye brightness to tell me I've received an update?

Only if you are in the initial set for 0x104

Let's keep this thread about the OTA feature, and not "when we all get it"

Be sure to check the release notes, there are several "other" things that where updated/changed with this release.

[Capmeister]

Can any comparisons be made, to those who have it, as to the tuner sensativity? I always noticed my H20's turner was better than my HR10's (fewer pixilations, close towers the antenna was not directly pointed toward came in on the H20 that did not on the HR10).

[EMoMoney]

One quick question. With my HR10-250 I only had 2 cable runs and used a diplexer, and I understand that I need a dedicated line for the HR20. My question is can I use a splitter on the OTA line and run one to the HR10 upstairs and run one line downstairs to the HR20? Or will this make the signals too weak?

[Herdfan]

Earl,

This may have been answered elsewhere, but do you know which ATSC chip the HR20 has? It is the same as the H20 which was rumored to be the 5th gen LG chip.

Thanks.

[Capmeister]

One quick question. With my HR10-250 I only had 2 cable runs and used a diplexer, and I understand that I need a dedicated line for the HR20. My question is can I use a splitter on the OTA line and run one to the HR10 upstairs and run one line downstairs to the HR20? Or will this make the signals too weak?

I am doing this (my HR20 is all ready for OTA activation!) because that's what I did when my H20 was where my HR20 now is. It worked fine. No loss of signal.

[sigma1914]

So, if I want OTA on 2 HR20s, then is that 4 runs? Or can you not record 2 OTAs at the same time?

I'm sorry, I'm new to OTA and my Pop is now interested in OTA because of PQ.

[RMSko]

Can any comparisons be made, to those who have it, as to the tuner sensativity? I always noticed my H20's turner was better than my HR10's (fewer pixilations, close towers the antenna was not directly pointed toward came in on the H20 that did not on the HR10).

I'm very interested in this as well. The OTA tuner on the HR10 stunk, so I hope the one on the HR20 is much better.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl,

This may have been answered elsewhere, but do you know which ATSC chip the HR20 has? It is the same as the H20 which was rumored to be the 5th gen LG chip.

Thanks.

I don't know what is underneath those silver casings.

[Earl Bonovich]

So, if I want OTA on 2 HR20s, then is that 4 runs? Or can you not record 2 OTAs at the same time?

I'm sorry, I'm new to OTA and my Pop is now interested in OTA because of PQ.

1 single input for the OTA... it internall splits the OTA.
You can record 2 ota's at once.

[Capmeister]

I don't know what is underneath those silver casings.

Why not? ::hands Earl a screwdriver and a pliers::

[sigma1914]

1 single input for the OTA... it internall splits the OTA.
You can record 2 ota's at once.

Thanks Earl.
We have an old school attic antenna that's UHF-VHF that we're assuming will let us see what we pick up.

[Blitz68]

You had this on 12/2?

They tell me I am there favorite customer :mad:

[Mike Huss]

You had this on 12/2?

They tell me I am there favorite customer :mad:

12/2? Look at his original posts. He built this thread on 11/27 which means he had it at least a couple days before that. He's special....

[911medic]

I don't know what is underneath those silver casings.Awww, c'mon now, we already know you've cracked her open (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=626658&postcount=6)! ;)

[Mike Huss]

BTW Earl, regarding yesterday's thread on the NFC playoffs and assuming the OTA rollout works well, we'll be covered well before the playoffs start. Please give your contact a hearty thank you from a Cowboys fan!!

[911medic]

Earl,

This may have been answered elsewhere, but do you know which ATSC chip the HR20 has? It is the same as the H20 which was rumored to be the 5th gen LG chip.

Thanks.It has two internal OTA tuner cards (http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/images/Small/17-insidetunercards.jpg); as to what chip is used...???

[hasan]

One quick question. With my HR10-250 I only had 2 cable runs and used a diplexer, and I understand that I need a dedicated line for the HR20. My question is can I use a splitter on the OTA line and run one to the HR10 upstairs and run one line downstairs to the HR20? Or will this make the signals too weak?

That only depends on one thing: is the signal strong enough in the first place? I have mine split 3 ways with no preamp or distribution amp and my signals are (on my Sammy TV)

ABC: 7/10
CBS: 10/10
PBS: 10/10
NBC: 10/10
FOX: 7/10
CW: 7/10

==================================================

Maximize Your OTA Performance Primer (follows below)

==================================================

Let's assume for a minute that your OTA signal is a bit weak, if so you can do this:

Option 1: (the best)

Put an antenna mounted preamp at the antenna, and split the signal as you asked about (in the house). You will have a BETTER signal after the split, than you had before you put the antenna mounted preamp on, and then split it. In other words, the antenna mounted preamp when split will give you a better signal than you had with no split and no antenna mounted preamp. (again assumes your signal is a bit weak to begin with...if it is strong at first, then don't use an antenna mounted preamp...it will overload the HR20 and your sensitivity will go DOWN, not UP.) Try good quality passive splitters first, then option #2 below if that isn't good enough.

Gain has ONLY ONE FUNCTION in an RF preamp....it sets or "freezes" the noise figure of the SYSTEM. Once you have enough gain to "set" the noise figure previously discussed, then no more gain helps at all...in fact, is likely to make it worse.

How much "gain" is enough?

Typically 15 dB is quite adequate

Option 2:

If your signal is moderately good to begin with, then use this same antenna mounted preamp in the house, set to its lowest gain setting (assuming a switch and not an adjustable pot), and split off of it...you are then using the antennna mounted preamp in the house as a signal distribution amp.

Why do I suggest using the antenna mounted preamp in both cases, instead of the typical el cheapo distribution amps that get used:

The design and performance of antenna mounted preamps is FAR superior to the typical distribution amps that you can afford or will have access to. The key variable in evaluating ANY amplifier for OTA is Noise Figure NOT GAIN. Again, I repeat NOT GAIN, NOT GAIN, NOT GAIN....Noise Figure is EVERYTHING for OTA!

If the device you are going to buy does not specify its noise figure ...then you can be pretty sure its noise figure is POOR. The noise figure should be no worse than 4 dB...and it would be much better if 3 dB or less. The lower the noise figure, the BETTER the sensitivity that preamp will provide. (Be sure you are looking at its UHF noise figure and not VHF...they are usually specificied separately in a decent RF amplifier.)

Keep in mind with this "in house antenna mounted preamp as distribution amp":

Any cable loss ahead of the preamp or distribution amp ADDS directly to the noise figure of the preamp/distr. amp. So, if you get a 2 dB noise figure preamp and put 4 dB of coax loss in front of it (the run from the antenna to inside the house where you install your preamp/distribution amp), you end up with a SYSTEM noise figure of 2 dB + 4 dB = 6 dB...which is NOT very good...then again, it may suit your needs, don't panic.


Option 3: (the worst, but may be better than nothing but a passive split)

A garden variety distribution amp with no antenna preamp. Gain: no more than 10 dB...and noise figure no worse than 4 dB

Summary:

1. Put your lowest noise figure device as close to the antenna as possible in weak signal situations.

2. A 100' of RG-6 cable in front of a preamp/distribution amp DRAMATICALLY reduces system sensitivity.

3. Use antenna mounted preamps for distribution amps, and then split off of them

4. Don't use any more gain than necessary in any amp or it will make things worse rather than better.

[hasan]

So, if I want OTA on 2 HR20s, then is that 4 runs? Or can you not record 2 OTAs at the same time?

I'm sorry, I'm new to OTA and my Pop is now interested in OTA because of PQ.

The HR20 can use 1 antenna for both it's tuners...it has an internal splitter. Only 1 OTA run per HR20 is required.

[Capmeister]

12/2? Look at his original posts. He built this thread on 11/27 which means he had it at least a couple days before that. He's special....

He is special--to us. :)

I think it's very clear to D* what Earl means to us and what his info is worth to them when he provides it to us and our info back to them through these forums. I think by letting "one of us" be in this role, D* is saying this relationship is good for all of us. Man, I'd take this over Charlie Chats ANY day.

[jgrade]

Earl:

Can you put to rest the debate about how many simultaneous recordings are possible with OTA activated? Is it 2 max or does the OTA add a third?

[hasan]

It's in the release comments where he started the threads:

It's 2, just like he has been saying for MONTHS.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl:

Can you put to rest the debate about how many simultaneous recordings are possible with OTA activated? Is it 2 max or does the OTA add a third?

There is a TOTAL NET: of 2 recordings at a time.

1 SAT
1 OTA
1 SAT - 1 OTA
2 SAT
2 OTA

[jgrade]

hasan chillout man. I did not see the bold letters in the second thread. I believe what Earl says but wanted to confirm since it is official. As you know engineers like to change specs at the last minute. A simple yes or no would have done just fine.

[hasan]

Sorry...didn't mean it to sound as gruff as it looked. (how's that for a mixed metaphor?)

[gvatty]

Thanks Earl, I'm getting my Terk indoor antenna tommorrow. Hopefully I got the software upgrade last night (I'm at work). I don't have access to my manual. How will I hook up my indoor antenna to the HR20. Thanks.

[hasan]

There's an F connector on the back labled "Off Air In"

[jgrade]

No problem. I will "listen" to your text more intently next time. Anyway, Earl, since I am in the same market as you, what antenna did you purchase. (or did you already answer that too):D

[gvatty]

There's an F connector on the back labled "Off Air In"

Thank you

[hasan]

Nice one!:)

Have you looked at "antennaweb.org" site?

If you go there, you can type in your Zip code, (and a couple other simple variables) and it will tell you what digital stations are in your area, and what kind of antenna will be required to see them...it's a pretty nice resource...if for nothing else it's interesting to see what it says.

I don't know the layout of your transmitters in Chicago...are they all in one "antenna farm", or are they all over the place?

If you do go to the site, please report back what you find out...I'm curious.

Or just give me your zip and I'll go look myself.

[christo76]

There is a TOTAL NET: of 2 recordings at a time.

1 SAT
1 OTA
1 SAT - 1 OTA
2 SAT
2 OTA

Earl, Is this the permanent total or will they be working to get the box to match the manual, and eventually we will be able to record 2 +1OTA?

[Earl Bonovich]

I have had my antenna for three years now (started with a SAT-520, then the HR10, then the H20, then the HR20)..

I got a RadioShack VX-120... it is attic mounted.
I get amazing reception for all the channels, except WBBM-DT (CBS)... It is VHF-3 and I am simply just too far, with the attic mount, to get it reliably.

I get 28 "channels" via OTA, as I do pickup a few from Gary Indiana

Do check the Local Reception forums at AVS (links in the 2nd post), for a lot of help and information about what to get and how to set it up.

[hitdog042]

Has anyone other than Earl actually received this? I'm in Ohio, still grayed out.

Just curious.

[gusbuf]

What about spliiting the Antenna signal between the HR-20 and also directly into my TV's antenna input? Will that degrade either picture? I have a Sony KDS60A2000 and the OTA HD picture is amazing with my DB4 antenna. I would like the option of watching OTA through the HR20 or the TV directly. Any thoughts?

Also, for those of you who have OTA activated already, how good does the internal tuner seem to be? Is your signal strong across all available OTA HD channels? How's the picture so far through the OTA input? Thanks!

[hasan]

What about spliiting the Antenna signal between the HR-20 and also directly into my TV's antenna input? Will that degrade either picture? I have a Sony KDS60A2000 and the OTA HD picture is amazing with my DB4 antenna. I would like the option of watching OTA through the HR20 or the TV directly. Any thoughts?

Also, for those of you who have OTA activated already, how good does the internal tuner seem to be? Is your signal strong across all available OTA HD channels? How's the picture so far through the OTA input? Thanks!

A split is a split is a split, it doesn't matter WHAT it's being split to. I'm splitting mine:

HR20
TV
Panasonic DVD/Hard Disk Recorder

I listed my signal strengths on my Sammy TV in another post. If your signal is good enough to begin with, then you can split 2 or 3 times with nothing more than a passive splitter. See my other post in this thread.

[hasan]

Has anyone other than Earl actually received this? I'm in Ohio, still grayed out.

Just curious.

Only the West coast has it at this time. It's being rolled out slowly. Earl is the exception in the midwest. It looks like Monday or so for the midwest/east coast. The roll out is deliberately slow so they can gather some data, without being overwhelmed and having to do a national retraction.

[RunnerFL]

Has anyone other than Earl actually received this? I'm in Ohio, still grayed out.

Just curious.


"Extended Staggered Rollout: Small subset of users first (mostly Pacific Timezone), then a gradual increaes of the user base. primarily by timezones. Being that this is such a large release, it make take several days for everyone to receive the update. Please don't ask why you don't have the update, unless you see an update that the release has gone national; and you don't have the release yet."

[Earl Bonovich]

Has anyone other than Earl actually received this? I'm in Ohio, still grayed out.

Just curious.


There have been a couple
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72264
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72263

Check the "release note" discussion thread.
This is an "extended staggard" release, it will take a few days for everyone to get it.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl, Is this the permanent total or will they be working to get the box to match the manual, and eventually we will be able to record 2 +1OTA?

I wouldn't count on it any time soon, if ever with this system.

[nocaster]

Has anyone been able to compare the HR-20 ATSC tuner with the H20? I have both (for a couple more days anyway). The tuner in the H20 is rock solid and I was just wondering if the HR20 could be even better.

I'll have to say that the integration of OTA with the H10 and H20 works really well and I can't wait to have the added capability of a DVR with OTA (I don't have the new software yet). The fact that these recievers take two fundamentally different signals and integrate them seamlessly in the quide has always been impressive to me. When D* can add more bandwidth next year, get a few more bugs worked out, and finally add more HD channels the HR-20 should be quite a nice box.

[krkeeton]

I know that you can only record two programs at once. I have read that. However, can you, for instasnce, watch something on the OTA tuner while recording 2 programs on the satellite tuners?

I am sorry if it is the same question as recording. I was just not sure how the technology worked. Thanks for any response.

[jforgione]

Earl - I currently have a 3lnb dish and have a diplex on one of the feeds which currently splits my antenna feed into the TV with the other end going into the SAT HR20. The release discussion indicates that it is not recommended to diplex the signal.

Can you explain why it is not recommended to diplex the signal and what will happen if you do? I'd rather not have to run a separate line from the antenna down to the box if I don't need to.

[Mike Huss]

Has anyone been able to compare the HR-20 ATSC tuner with the H20? I have both (for a couple more days anyway). The tuner in the H20 is rock solid and I was just wondering if the HR20 could be even better.

I'll have to say that the integration of OTA with the H10 and H20 works really well and I can't wait to have the added capability of a DVR with OTA (I don't have the new software yet). The fact that these recievers take two fundamentally different signals and integrate them seamlessly in the quide has always been impressive to me. When D* can add more bandwidth next year, get a few more bugs worked out, and finally add more HD channels the HR-20 should be quite a nice box.

Yes, the ATSC tuner in the H10 I have was rock solid! I'm hoping they used the same tuner in the HR20.

[hasan]

I still think the answer is the same, no, for the reasons I put in the last post. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am. It's just a limitation of the HR20 as currently configured.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl - I currently have a 3lnb dish and have a diplex on one of the feeds which currently splits my antenna feed into the TV with the other end going into the SAT HR20. The release discussion indicates that it is not recommended to diplex the signal.

Can you explain why it is not recommended to diplex the signal and what will happen if you do? I'd rather not have to run a separate line from the antenna down to the box if I don't need to.

It is not recommended, once you go to a 5LNB system.
The signals from the newest sats (the KA ones), want to work in the same frequency spectrum as the diplexed OTA antenna.

[mnassour]

Oh, I so HOPE this is the release that changes my attitude!

Anyway, question here....the local PBS station is in the process of changing its subchannels. We expect that on Jan. 1 they will shift from the current format (two subchannels) to three or four. When that happens do we know if the HR20 will automatically find them, or do we need to do a new setup, or is there simply a function to rescan for channels?

[RxMan1]

Sorry for straying a bit, this is OTA discussion, right?

I have an HR10-250 and HR20-700 right next to each other in my component closet. I have one line coming down from my antenna to my HR10-250. Could I split it right there and run a short piece to the HR20-700 or would it be better to split it closer to the attic antenna and run the lines down from there?

I hope the OTA tuner in the HR20 is better than the HR10!

[texasbrit]

Sorry for straying a bit, this is OTA discussion, right?

I have an HR10-250 and HR20-700 right next to each other in my component closet. I have one line coming down from my antenna to my HR10-250. Could I split it right there and run a short piece to the HR20-700 or would it be better to split it closer to the attic antenna and run the lines down from there?

I hope the OTA tuner in the HR20 is better than the HR10!


Split it close to the HR20.
If your signal is not strong then you may need to install a preamp at the antenna to overcome all the splits. The signal at each tuner will only be 25% of your original signal (50% loss in the splitter, then 50% again in the internal splitters of the Hr10 and the HR20)
If the Hr20 tuner is the same as the one in the H20 then it is MUCH better than the HR10!!

[Mike Huss]

Sorry for straying a bit, this is OTA discussion, right?

I have an HR10-250 and HR20-700 right next to each other in my component closet. I have one line coming down from my antenna to my HR10-250. Could I split it right there and run a short piece to the HR20-700 or would it be better to split it closer to the attic antenna and run the lines down from there?

I hope the OTA tuner in the HR20 is better than the HR10!

You can do that assuming you have a strong enough signal. I have a passive splitter behind my HDTV. One run goes to the TV and one goes to the HR20. Works just fine. Well, it worked fine on the H10 and HR10 anyway, as well as the HDTV. Assuming it's going to work fine on the HR20 when we get it here.

[hasan]

Sorry for straying a bit, this is OTA discussion, right?

I have an HR10-250 and HR20-700 right next to each other in my component closet. I have one line coming down from my antenna to my HR10-250. Could I split it right there and run a short piece to the HR20-700 or would it be better to split it closer to the attic antenna and run the lines down from there?

I hope the OTA tuner in the HR20 is better than the HR10!

Split it where the two receivers are located...you don't gain anything by splitting up top and it's much more convenient to split at the equipment.

[RxMan1]

Thanks for all of the replies. :)

[texasbrit]

It is not recommended, once you go to a 5LNB system.
The signals from the newest sats (the KA ones), want to work in the same frequency spectrum as the diplexed OTA antenna.

Diplexing will work today but as soon as DirecTV 10 and 11 launch next year they will transmit in the Ka-lo band and that overlaps OTA so at that point the diplexing will fail. There is a potential workaround by relocating the b-band converters so they are on the dish side of the diplexer but if you can you should run a separate cable, it will make things much easier (and will also give you a stronger OTA signal than any diplexing scheme).

[EMoMoney]

That only depends on one thing: is the signal strong enough in the first place?
On my HR10-250 I was getting a solid 95 on BAC, 92 on CBS and WB, 71 on FOX. The only channel I have problems with is NBC. I can't seem to get a solid signal on all 4 at the same time. If I turn my antenna to get a solid signal on NBC, I lose ABC.

[nocaster]

Oh, I so HOPE this is the release that changes my attitude!

Anyway, question here....the local PBS station is in the process of changing its subchannels. We expect that on Jan. 1 they will shift from the current format (two subchannels) to three or four. When that happens do we know if the HR20 will automatically find them, or do we need to do a new setup, or is there simply a function to rescan for channels?

I hate to bear bad news, but the PBS affiliate in Oklahoma did this a couple months ago. They no longer carry the national 24/7 HD broadcast. This might not happen to you, but it seems to be following the same pattern. One of the subs is PBS Kids. You will have to reconfigure your OTA setup when this happens. They won't appear in the guide automatically.

[jdoug]

How is HR20 OTA tuner better than HR10? I have an HR10 and have pretty bad multipath problems, especially after the leaves drop. When leaves are up and no wind it works great. But, with strong wind in summer, or any wind in winter I have problems on both FOX and CBS (or course the only 2 I don't have waivers for and also are not available locally via satellite).

Any chance mutipath problems are less likely with HR20 than HR10?

[gonzlobo]

There is a TOTAL NET: of 2 recordings at a time.

1 SAT
1 OTA
1 SAT - 1 OTA
2 SAT
2 OTA

Ok, I understand we can only record on 2 channels simultaneously, but can we watch 1 OTA & record 2 SATs (or any other combination)?

[Earl Bonovich]

Ok, I understand we can only record on 2 channels simultaneously, but can we watch 1 OTA & record 2 SATs (or any other combination)?

No. The unit can only tune 2 channels at once... regardless of source.

[Canis Lupus]

Don't think so because in the end, you only have 2 tuners. You can combine them for recording any way you want, but you only have 2 tuners. Therefore when 2 tuners are being used to record, you have to watch something from your list.

EDIT: - woops sorry Earl. I got tossed right when I saw your reply (must be busy here today :) )

Ok, I understand we can only record on 2 channels simultaneously, but can we watch 1 OTA & record 2 SATs (or any other combination)?

[wmschultz]

How is HR20 OTA tuner better than HR10? I have an HR10 and have pretty bad multipath problems, especially after the leaves drop. When leaves are up and no wind it works great. But, with strong wind in summer, or any wind in winter I have problems on both FOX and CBS (or course the only 2 I don't have waivers for and also are not available locally via satellite).

Any chance mutipath problems are less likely with HR20 than HR10?

Please, Please, Please....

Can someone do a compare to the HR10-250? I would like to think that this ATSC tuner is better than that one.

[Earl Bonovich]

Please, Please, Please....

Can someone do a compare to the HR10-250? I would like to think that this ATSC tuner is better than that one.

You are going to have to wait till the user base increases.
I can't really "compare" to my HR10-250... as I get the same number of channels.

I could get VHF-3 with the HR10-250, nor with the HR20.
On a "good day" I could get it on the H20, but that was really hit or miss.

[uncrules]

How about comparing the tuner of the H20-600 vs the HR20. I've been very satisfied with the tuner in my H20-600. I hope the HR20 tuner will be just as good.

[wmschultz]

You are going to have to wait till the user base increases.
I can't really "compare" to my HR10-250... as I get the same number of channels.

I could get VHF-3 with the HR10-250, nor with the HR20.
On a "good day" I could get it on the H20, but that was really hit or miss.

What about signal strength? I just have one flaky channel (FOX) and I can't pick
up PBS due to the region they put there tranmitter in (opposite of the others)

[nocaster]

Please, Please, Please....

Can someone do a compare to the HR10-250? I would like to think that this ATSC tuner is better than that one.

I have read in the past that the tuner in the H20 (non dvr) was much improved over the HR10-250. I'm assuming the HR-20 has the same tuner or better as the H20. I know my H20 is rock solid and improved on the H10 (not to be confused with the HR10 TiVo).

All these reciever names are getting confusing. :)

[Earl Bonovich]

What about signal strength? I just have one flaky channel (FOX) and I can't pick
up PBS due to the region they put there tranmitter in (opposite of the others)

On all the stations I could receive, the meter was reading 100%
But again... In Chicago, all my transmissions are from "Basically" the same spot (the two towers are less then 3 miles apart from one another)

[Blitz68]

I know that you can only record two programs at once. I have read that. However, can you, for instasnce, watch something on the OTA tuner while recording 2 programs on the satellite tuners?

I am sorry if it is the same question as recording. I was just not sure how the technology worked. Thanks for any response.

No

[mdmcvay]

Is there anyway to combine two antennas? I have been having a heck of a time trying to receive all my digital ota, and since the ota on my hr20 will be active soon, I am trying to get everything perfect. I have one antenna mounted in the attic and a Zenith Silver Sensor on top of the entertainment center. According to antennaweb, I am between 4 and 7 miles from all my local txmitters. Compass orientations are 70 degrees for 3 sta, 129, 155, 157, and 164. I am having a hard time aiming to get them all at once. Can i aim my attic antenna one direction and my silver sensor another and then combine and feed into the hr20 and have it work? or maybe i should go buy a "bowtie" type antenna and throw it in the attic

Thanks

[f300v10]

How is HR20 OTA tuner better than HR10? I have an HR10 and have pretty bad multipath problems, especially after the leaves drop. When leaves are up and no wind it works great. But, with strong wind in summer, or any wind in winter I have problems on both FOX and CBS (or course the only 2 I don't have waivers for and also are not available locally via satellite).

Any chance mutipath problems are less likely with HR20 than HR10?

Assuming the OTA tuner in the HR20 is as good as the H20, then yes you should see less multipath issues with the HR20. My H20 was WAY better at dealing with wind and changes in leaves than the HR10-250. The H20 would still occasionally drop the signal, but it was far less frequent and recovered a good lock much faster than the HR10 which was often unwatchable.

[hasan]

Is there anyway to combine two antennas? I have been having a heck of a time trying to receive all my digital ota, and since the ota on my hr20 will be active soon, I am trying to get everything perfect. I have one antenna mounted in the attic and a Zenith Silver Sensor on top of the entertainment center. According to antennaweb, I am between 4 and 7 miles from all my local txmitters. Compass orientations are 70 degrees for 3 sta, 129, 155, 157, and 164. I am having a hard time aiming to get them all at once. Can i aim my attic antenna one direction and my silver sensor another and then combine and feed into the hr20 and have it work?

Thanks

That approach works very well with single frequency designed yagis...when you try the same trick with wide-band antennas the results are not as encouraging...however, there is no expense in trying it. You can try using a passive splitter in reverse (the two outputs become the two inputs, and the one input becomes the combined outputs). There are better ways to do this, but if I had the stuff laying around, I would try it first.

[DblD_Indy]

I have read in the past that the tuner in the H20 (non dvr) was much improved over the HR10-250. I'm assuming the HR-20 has the same tuner or better as the H20. I know my H20 is rock solid and improved on the H10 (not to be confused with the HR10 TiVo).

All these reciever names are getting confusing. :)

Rock Solid = HR20 ...???.. Some day I hope...

[steff3]

Split it close to the HR20.
If your signal is not strong then you may need to install a preamp at the antenna to overcome all the splits. The signal at each tuner will only be 25% of your original signal (50% loss in the splitter, then 50% again in the internal splitters of the Hr10 and the HR20)
If the Hr20 tuner is the same as the one in the H20 then it is MUCH better than the HR10!!

I'm sorry if this is a bit redundant and maybe should be asked in another thread but are you saying that every time you split with a passive splitter you drop 50%? I have my OTA split (passive splitter) in the attic 3 ways, to drop to the family room and to two bedrooms. Then in the family room it is split again to the TV and HR10. I still receive a relatively strong signal except on CBS (bedrooms are fine though). Will I be able to split again in the family rm for the HR20?

[pgiralt]

Is there anyway to combine two antennas? I have been having a heck of a time trying to receive all my digital ota, and since the ota on my hr20 will be active soon, I am trying to get everything perfect. I have one antenna mounted in the attic and a Zenith Silver Sensor on top of the entertainment center. According to antennaweb, I am between 4 and 7 miles from all my local txmitters. Compass orientations are 70 degrees for 3 sta, 129, 155, 157, and 164. I am having a hard time aiming to get them all at once. Can i aim my attic antenna one direction and my silver sensor another and then combine and feed into the hr20 and have it work?

Thanks

Yes, look for the Channel Master Jointenna. You order it for a specific channel and it will let you combine that channel on one antenna with the rest from another antenna. You can stack them if you need to use more than 2 antennas.

[hasan]

I'm sorry if this is a bit redundant and maybe should be asked in another thread but are you saying that every time you split with a passive splitter you drop 50%? I have my OTA split (passive splitter) in the attic 3 ways, to drop to the family room and to two bedrooms. Then in the family room it is split again to the TV and HR10. I still receive a relatively strong signal except on CBS (bedrooms are fine though). Will I be able to split again in the family rm for the HR20?

Actually, every time you split you lost 3 to 4 dB (which is a little more than half). A perfect, lossless splitter would lose 3 dB (50%), but there is no such thing.

The only way to answer your question is to try it and see if it works.

If it doesn't, then you need to put an RF Preamplifier as close to the antenna as possible, and split from its output. That can work very well.

[richlife]

I'm sorry if this is a bit redundant and maybe should be asked in another thread but are you saying that every time you split with a passive splitter you drop 50%? I have my OTA split (passive splitter) in the attic 3 ways, to drop to the family room and to two bedrooms. Then in the family room it is split again to the TV and HR10. I still receive a relatively strong signal except on CBS (bedrooms are fine though). Will I be able to split again in the family rm for the HR20?

An installer once told me that if you further split a split signal your quickly degrade your signal (100% - 50/50 - 50/25/25 - 50/25/12.5/12.5 etc.). He said the best way to preserve the best signal is to use a multi-splitter (not a multi-switch - different purpose). So I'm planning to rewire with a 1 to 4 or 5 splitter.

[Mike Huss]

I have a powered distribution amp in my attic similar to this - http://tinyurl.com/y6ffh2 - but with (4) outputs. At this time I only use two of the outputs though. One goes to a TV in the living room, and one goes to the HDTV. Like I said earlier I split the one to the HDTV behind the HDTV and run one to the TV and one to the D* receiver (currently HR20). Works very well that way, I'm about 20 miles from the towers on flat land.

IIRC I have the gain turned down pretty far on the amp. I probably don't even need it now that I'm only running it to two spots (or would that be 2.5 spots?). I used to run it to 4 TV's, but those runs have been taken over by D* runs over the last couple years.

[steff3]

An installer once told me that if you further split a split signal your quickly degrade your signal (100% - 50/50 - 50/25/25 - 50/25/12.5/12.5 etc.). He said the best way to preserve the best signal is to use a multi-splitter (not a multi-switch - different purpose). So I'm planning to rewire with a 1 to 4 or 5 splitter.

Thanks Hasan and Richlife for your replies. Hasan, does a pre amp require ac? Richlife, what is a multi-splitter? Is it just a passive splitter with one input and multiple outs?
Thanks again.

[mnassour]

I hate to bear bad news, but the PBS affiliate in Oklahoma did this a couple months ago. They no longer carry the national 24/7 HD broadcast. This might not happen to you, but it seems to be following the same pattern. One of the subs is PBS Kids. You will have to reconfigure your OTA setup when this happens. They won't appear in the guide automatically.

What we're being told here is that they plan to do HD in the evenings and multicast the rest of the time, which is fine, as long as I can record reliably:rolleyes: . Of course, that remains to be seen. So when the new channels come on, it's just an OTA reconfiguration, with any luck I won't have to do a complete reset.

thanks!

[richlife]

[QUOTE=steff3;744118]Richlife, what is a multi-splitter? Is it just a passive splitter with one input and multiple outs?[QUOTE]

Yes, that's right -- passive 4 or 5 way splitter. Actually I now more intrigued by the idea of a "powered distributor". Antenna technology passed me by since D*. Can anyone tell us what better options there might be than a passive multi-splitter? What do they do? How much do they cost? thanks:grin:

[mdmcvay]

thanks for the help....i may try that....the channels I am concerned with are my NBC because my sat pic looks like crap (8mm effect). it and my cw affiliate are at 70 degrees, my CBS which isn't carried on D* is at 155 and my PBS which is at 157.

[Reggie3]

Thanks Hasan and Richlife for your replies. Hasan, does a pre amp require ac? Richlife, what is a multi-splitter? Is it just a passive splitter with one input and multiple outs?
Thanks again.

Yes a preamp requires ac but not at the antenna- Unlike the old days they now are easy to set up. At the antenna one installs the preamp - at the end of your coax run you have the amp - this is where the ac is plugged in. It will send the power thru the coax to the preamp.

Here is a link to antenna preamps and the amount of attenuation they offer: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/HDTV_preamps.htm

I have the AP-8275 VHF/UHF Pre-amplifier which really has allowed me to receiver pretty good reception from the Denver stations (using a non rotating attic antenna) that are only broadcasting in very low power (think you have issue read this: http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/ )

[biggorilla]

Ok, here's the OTA puzzle.

I have a Terk HDTVs mounted on the roof of my apartment building and an independent run to a ASKA Model: AM-125 25db Gain Distribution Amplifier inside near the HR20 and a 3ft Monster Coax to the HR20.

Now here's the puzzle, when the antenna is hooked directly to my TV Sony KDFE50A10, I get every possible Off Air channel available here in Los Angeles. When I hook it up to the HR20 (Same for the ole' HR10-250), I get PBS-HD but nothing else.

What up with that? Should I switch antennas (Maybe Channel Master 4221A)? Add a preamp? Is my ATSC tuner in the Sony TV reallly better than the HR20?

What a puzzle! I would love to have the same performance OTA as my TV in the HR20. Help anyone? :D

[gio12]

HR-20??

This might get me to switch faster.

[Ryanm86]

So you freaks finally get what you have been complaining about for 6 months and all you can do is talk about antennas for 4 pages. This is the biggest let down thread of the year. Come on!

[nocaster]

So you freaks finally get what you have been complaining about for 6 months and all you can do is talk about antennas for 4 pages. This is the biggest let down thread of the year. Come on!

Well, antennas are fundamental to OTA I would say.

[Ryanm86]

Well, antennas are fundamental to OTA I would say.

You are correct, I guess with all the build up I just thought when it was announced it would be a bigger deal.

[Meklos]

Ok, here's the OTA puzzle.

I have a Terk HDTVs mounted on the roof of my apartment building and an independent run to a ASKA Model: AM-125 25db Gain Distribution Amplifier inside near the HR20 and a 3ft Monster Coax to the HR20.

Now here's the puzzle, when the antenna is hooked directly to my TV Sony KDFE50A10, I get every possible Off Air channel available here in Los Angeles. When I hook it up to the HR20 (Same for the ole' HR10-250), I get PBS-HD but nothing else.

What up with that? Should I switch antennas (Maybe Channel Master 4221A)? Add a preamp? Is my ATSC tuner in the Sony TV reallly better than the HR20?

What a puzzle! I would love to have the same performance OTA as my TV in the HR20. Help anyone? :D

You might actually be getting too much amplification. You're getting up to 15db from the amp in the HDTVs. You need to amplify as close to the antenna as possible, upstream of the major loss. In your case, I'm guessing the AM-125's purpose in life is an amplified splitter, but you might try going directly from the HDTVs to the HR20 to see what happens, then add gain back in if you need.

Remember... with HDTV digital signals, you're not necessarily worried about gain. It's all about noise and the SNR ratio. Increasing the gain helps if you're helping the S more than the N, but at some point you may be overloading your tuner, or just simply amplifying the noise.

[biggorilla]

You might actually be getting too much amplification. You're getting up to 15db from the amp in the HDTVs. You need to amplify as close to the antenna as possible, upstream of the major loss. In your case, I'm guessing the AM-125's purpose in live is an amplified splitter, but you might try going directly from the HDTVs to the HR20 to see what happens, then add gain back in if you need.

Remember... with HDTV digital signals, you're not necessarily worried about gain. It's all about noise and the SNR ratio. Increasing the gain helps if you're helping the S more than the N, but at some point you may be overloading your tuner, or just simply amplifying the noise.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I tried taking the amp out of the mix and still no change on the HR20. Still shows weak to no signal for most channels. I just reattached directly to the TV and once again I get all OTA channels with great signal strength.

[gusbuf]

Earl,

Any idea of how much hard drive space is used by OTA HD recordings vs MPEG4 HD recordings from the satellite dish?

Thanks!

[hasan]

Thanks Hasan and Richlife for your replies. Hasan, does a pre amp require ac? Richlife, what is a multi-splitter? Is it just a passive splitter with one input and multiple outs?
Thanks again.

If you do it right, you get an antenna mounted preamp...that sends the power to run it up the coax, no extra wire or power required at the antenna. Bring the run of coax (the one with both signal and preamp power) down as far as you can, then it terminates in a "power inserter" box and your antenna output. At that point (at the antenna output of the power inserter box) you can put your splitters and your coax runs to your other devices.

There are other ways to do this if you need the split to take place up in an attic...you will need an a/c power outlet in the attic or a long extension cord to same for this approach. Just keep in mind, you don't want to do the "split" until AFTER the power insertion/antenna output box. One side of the box has the cable (with power inserted) that goes to the remote antenna, the other side of the same box has the short run to go to the HR20 or your splitters.

It looks like this:

Ant > Coax run with power > Power Inserter > Passive Splitter > HR20 and other receivers

[hasan]

Ok, here's the OTA puzzle.

I have a Terk HDTVs mounted on the roof of my apartment building and an independent run to a ASKA Model: AM-125 25db Gain Distribution Amplifier inside near the HR20 and a 3ft Monster Coax to the HR20.

Now here's the puzzle, when the antenna is hooked directly to my TV Sony KDFE50A10, I get every possible Off Air channel available here in Los Angeles. When I hook it up to the HR20 (Same for the ole' HR10-250), I get PBS-HD but nothing else.

What up with that? Should I switch antennas (Maybe Channel Master 4221A)? Add a preamp? Is my ATSC tuner in the Sony TV reallly better than the HR20?

What a puzzle! I would love to have the same performance OTA as my TV in the HR20. Help anyone? :D

Your Terk amplified antenna may be overdriving the HR20 and causing it to lose signal. Reduce the gain on the Terk or turn off the power to it and see what happens.

[hasan]

So you freaks finally get what you have been complaining about for 6 months and all you can do is talk about antennas for 4 pages. This is the biggest let down thread of the year. Come on!

No one is requiring you to read the thread. If you aren't interested read something else and let those who need help get it. You can't do OTA without an antenna and feedline, so it is on topic whether it interests you or not.

[hasan]

Earl,

Any idea of how much hard drive space is used by OTA HD recordings vs MPEG4 HD recordings from the satellite dish?

Thanks!

It will use a little more than HD MPEG-2 on the satellite, because it's not bit starved. It will use a LOT more than MPEG-4/HD-Locals on the satellite.

[kirthew]

I have a really stupid question... I still have Comcast coming in with limited basic... I have an HD Tuner on my tv... can the OTA be used in the same fashion?

[Meklos]

I have a really stupid question... I still have Comcast coming in with limited basic... I have an HD Tuner on my tv... can the OTA be used in the same fashion?

ATSC is OTA, NTSC is broadcast analog, QAM is what most digital cable systems use.

The OTA tuner in the HR20 is ATSC only.

[Alan Gordon]

It will use a little more than HD MPEG-2 on the satellite, because it's not bit starved. It will use a LOT more than MPEG-4/HD-Locals on the satellite.

Actually, that would depend on how many sub-channels your local OTA affiliate has! ;)

~Alan

[harsh]

I'm sorry if this is a bit redundant and maybe should be asked in another thread but are you saying that every time you split with a passive splitter you drop 50%?Some of the better splitters have the attenuation printed on the device. The unit of measure is dB and it is a logarithmic scale.
-1dB is a 21 % decrease -3dB is a 50% decrease -20db is a 99% decreaseAlong with dividing up the signal, there is also a factor called "insertion loss" that happens each time you go in and out of couplers.

Here's the specs on Monster's (also sold under other brands) splitters for perspective:

2-way 3.5dB
3-way 5.7dB
4-way 7.4dB
5-way 12dB

Note that these numbers are for frequencies up to 1GHZ. Above that, the loss is noticeably higher, but OTA doesn't go that high.

All of the specifications aside, it must be remembered that while the desirable signal is being attenuated, so is the undesirable signal. You can usually split a good signal four ways without getting in too much trouble.

[wpbond69]

Earl,

Can you clean up the links on the DBS Talk home page for the OTA new release?

For previous releases, there is a link to the release notes and a link to the discussion. Right now, there is a link that says it is for the discussion, but it takes you to the release notes.

Also, on the release notes that appear when you click "Discussion", it does not have the paragraph below about the staggered release. This paragraph is on a different release notes post in the thread about all HR20 releases notes (which isn't linked to the front page currently as "Release Notes").

I think clearing this up and making sure the rollout info is in the updated Release Notes post will reduce the questions about when people will get it.

Missing paragraph:

Extended Staggered Rollout: Small subset of users first (mostly Pacific Timezone), then a gradual increaes of the user base. primarily by timezones. Being that this is such a large release, it make take several days for everyone to receive the update. Please don't ask why you don't have the update, unless you see an update that the release has gone national; and you don't have the release yet.

:)

[Alan Gordon]

Earl,

I have a question.

I held off on getting an HR20 earlier this year due to not getting a good enough deal and the lack of an OTA tuner, along with issues experienced by those who own the HR20... and I'm glad I waited since OTA kept being delayed and MOST of my viewing are the networks.

HOWEVER, I do have some questions regarding the OTA guide.

1. I live in a smaller DMA (#147) surrounded by two bigger DMAs (#109 & #125), and one of the few complaints I've had regarding the HR10-250 (as well as other DirecTV HD receivers) are the option for only TWO DMAs. Is there any hope for the HR20 to ever support more?

2. Two of the DMAs I live in have some inccorect guide data information being sent. One of them, WTXL-DT (27-1 & 27-2) has both channels listed on DirecTV HD receivers as 27-1. In my DMA, we have one missing sub-channel, one channel whose primary channel information is missing, and one whose primary channel is missing, but there sub-channel information is available on the wrong RF frequency. My question is this, will DirecTV setup a page ala TiVo where you can report incorrect guide data since the HR20 is their baby?

Also, as a little note, while the HR10-250 started out setting up their local networks with a zip code ala the HR20, they later (with a software upgrade) made it where you could pick a DMA by name which made it a lot easier during initial setup for people who didn't know a zip code in their secondary market. Pass it along! ;)

~Alan

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl,

Can you clean up the links on the DBS Talk home page for the OTA new release?

For previous releases, there is a link to the release notes and a link to the discussion. Right now, there is a link that says it is for the discussion, but it takes you to the release notes.

Also, on the release notes that appear when you click "Discussion", it does not have the paragraph below about the staggered release. This paragraph is on a different release notes post in the thread about all HR20 releases notes (which isn't linked to the front page currently as "Release Notes").

I think clearing this up and making sure the rollout info is in the updated Release Notes post will reduce the questions about when people will get it.

Missing paragraph:

Extended Staggered Rollout: Small subset of users first (mostly Pacific Timezone), then a gradual increaes of the user base. primarily by timezones. Being that this is such a large release, it make take several days for everyone to receive the update. Please don't ask why you don't have the update, unless you see an update that the release has gone national; and you don't have the release yet.

:)

Thank you... I hae made those adjustments

[Earl Bonovich]

Also, there doesn't seem to be a general discussion for 0x104 right now. There are only the 3 special dicussions for OTA, History changes and Record Page changes. Will there be a general discussion?

In particular, I'm curious, what are the Trickplay improvements for this release?

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72036

[biggorilla]

Your Terk amplified antenna may be overdriving the HR20 and causing it to lose signal. Reduce the gain on the Terk or turn off the power to it and see what happens.

Thanks for the help!

The Terk HDTVs is a passive antenna. There is no power going to it. The only power is from the distribution amp and the end before the TV. I have tried taking off the amp but still get virtually no signal to the HR20. The TV's ATSC tuner works flawlessly with my current set up.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl,

I have a question.

I held off on getting an HR20 earlier this year due to not getting a good enough deal and the lack of an OTA tuner, along with issues experienced by those who own the HR20... and I'm glad I waited since OTA kept being delayed and MOST of my viewing are the networks.

HOWEVER, I do have some questions regarding the OTA guide.

1. I live in a smaller DMA (#147) surrounded by two bigger DMAs (#109 & #125), and one of the few complaints I've had regarding the HR10-250 (as well as other DirecTV HD receivers) are the option for only TWO DMAs. Is there any hope for the HR20 to ever support more?

2. Two of the DMAs I live in have some inccorect guide data information being sent. One of them, WTXL-DT (27-1 & 27-2) has both channels listed on DirecTV HD receivers as 27-1. In my DMA, we have one missing sub-channel, one channel whose primary channel information is missing, and one whose primary channel is missing, but there sub-channel information is available on the wrong RF frequency. My question is this, will DirecTV setup a page ala TiVo where you can report incorrect guide data since the HR20 is their baby?

Also, as a little note, while the HR10-250 started out setting up their local networks with a zip code ala the HR20, they later (with a software upgrade) made it where you could pick a DMA by name which made it a lot easier during initial setup for people who didn't know a zip code in their secondary market. Pass it along! ;)

~Alan

I am unaware of any plans to allow more then "two" DMA's

As for the bad guide data... I don't know of any plans, considering the HR10-250 was "their" guide data... but right now you can email the affiliates and DirecTV, or post over at forums.direcTV.com

I will pass along the DMA selection idea.

[hasan]

Thanks for the help!

The Terk HDTVs is a passive antenna. There is no power going to it. The only power is from the distribution amp and the end before the TV. I have tried taking off the amp but still get virtually no signal to the HR20. The TV's ATSC tuner works flawlessly with my current set up.

Does the antenna feedline come all way down to the HR20 before the distro amp split? If so, turn off the amp, disconnect the antenna from the distro amp, and connect it directly to the HR20. See what it looks like there. It could be that the distro amp is ovedriving the HR20 or that you have a cable problem.

[biggorilla]

Does the antenna feedline come all way down to the HR20 before the distro amp split? If so, turn off the amp, disconnect the antenna from the distro amp, and connect it directly to the HR20. See what it looks like there. It could be that the distro amp is ovedriving the HR20 or that you have a cable problem.

The feedline comes directly down to the amp from the roof. I have taken the amp completely out of the loop and got no signal. Should I turn off the amp even if nothing is plugged into it? The feedline is 2 months old and it works perfectly with the amp to my Sony TV's ATSC tuner. It's just when I try to send it to the HR20's ATSC Tuners (and this was true with the HR10-250) , I get no signal with or without the amp. As I said originally, it's a puzzle. Thanks again!

[Alan Gordon]

I am unaware of any plans to allow more then "two" DMA's

That doesn't effect me too much since I'm planning on buying a TiVo Series 3 next year for my OTA recording, but I do think DirecTV should take it into consideration.

As for the bad guide data... I don't know of any plans, considering the HR10-250 was "their" guide data... but right now you can email the affiliates and DirecTV, or post over at forums.direcTV.com

I've contacted the affiliates on several occasions. On more than one occasion, they have not bothered to write me back. I have contacted some affiliates and was told that the reason I could not receive their guide data was because I could not receive their channel. I've contacted some affiliates and were told they would work on it, but nothing ever happened. I've contacted some affiliates and they managed to fix theirs, or partially fix theirs.

I have also contacted Tribune and was told they would look into it, but no changes yet.

~Alan

[JJaret]

Earl:

I noticed there is no ability to scan for additional OTA channels in this release. This feature has been available in all the previous HD receivers/dvr's that D* has offered. Are they going to add it or are we at the mercy of D*'s ability to keep its channel list up-to-date? It looks like they have all channels and subchannels in the list for LA, they haven't in the past.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl:

I noticed there is no ability to scan for additional OTA channels in this release. This feature has been available in all the previous HD receivers/dvr's that D* has offered. Are they going to add it or are we at the mercy of D*'s ability to keep its channel list up-to-date? It looks like they have all channels and subchannels in the list for LA, they haven't in the past.

Thanks,
Jeff

I believe that functionality will come to the unit in a future release, but for now they opted to enable the channels they had guide data for.

[hasan]

The feedline comes directly down to the amp from the roof. I have taken the amp completely out of the loop and got no signal. Should I turn off the amp even if nothing is plugged into it? The feedline is 2 months old and it works perfectly with the amp to my Sony TV's ATSC tuner. It's just when I try to send it to the HR20's ATSC Tuners (and this was true with the HR10-250) , I get no signal with or without the amp. As I said originally, it's a puzzle. Thanks again!

yes, turn the amp off, it could be oscillating due to improper termination of both its inputs and outputs...but I doubt it is the problem...a real stretch. Every tuner is different in terms of how much signal it will tolerate before overloading. If, when you are using your distro amp, you have unused outputs, terminate them with 75 ohm pads (also available at Radio Shack)

Go to to radio shack and get a variable 75 ohm attenuator. Put the coax from the antenna into your distro amp (put previously mentioned 75 ohm terminators/pads on any unused outputs), put the variable 75 ohm attenuator on the output from the distro amp to the input of the HR20 and try various settings of attenuation to see if a pix will pop on.

If I understand you correctly, the HR10 atsc tuner would NOT work with your current setup either? That is curious.

[RunnerFL]

Is there anyway to combine two antennas?


I just use a splitter in reverse, works great...

I have 2 antennas because most of the stations antennas in my area are south of me, however the ABC affiliate's is North. I have on Antenna facing south and one facing north. I took the outputs from the antennas and ran them into the 2 outputs of a splitter. I then took the input side of the splitter and ran it to a preamp outside and the output of that inside. I then run it into the preamp power and then to a 4 way splitter [2 for the 2 tuners on my TV, 1 for my HR10 and 1 for my HR20]. Works great and I've had no problems with my HR10, haven't gotten the upgrade on my HR20 yet.

[RunnerFL]

Yes, look for the Channel Master Jointenna. You order it for a specific channel and it will let you combine that channel on one antenna with the rest from another antenna. You can stack them if you need to use more than 2 antennas.


That works great, but only if you need 1 channel off the 2nd antenna. If you need 2 or more the jointenna is useless.

[jba115]

I have kept my antenna connected to my Samsung 160. It's the antenna (I believe Terk) which D* installed when I set up my HD three years ago. I assume (as much as I hate to do that), that I can merely move the OTA cable from the Sammy to the HR20 and be good to go. Correct?

[Earl Bonovich]

I have kept my antenna connected to my Samsung 160. It's the antenna (I believe Terk) which D* installed when I set up my HD three years ago. I assume (as much as I hate to do that), that I can merely move the OTA cable from the Sammy to the HR20 and be good to go. Correct?


Once you receive the 0x104 update.... yes, you can move your antenna signal. Then run the Setup for OTA, and you are good to go.

[biggorilla]

yes, turn the amp off, it could be oscillating due to improper termination of both its inputs and outputs...but I doubt it is the problem...a real stretch. Every tuner is different in terms of how much signal it will tolerate before overloading. If, when you are using your distro amp, you have unused outputs, terminate them with 75 ohm pads (also available at Radio Shack)

Go to to radio shack and get a variable 75 ohm attenuator. Put the coax from the antenna into your distro amp (put previously mentioned 75 ohm terminators/pads on any unused outputs), put the variable 75 ohm attenuator on the output from the distro amp to the input of the HR20 and try various settings of attenuation to see if a pix will pop on.

If I understand you correctly, the HR10 atsc tuner would NOT work with your current setup either? That is curious.

Yes, that's correct. The HR10 couldn't pull signal either. I haven't seen the attenuator on radio shack's website. Is this something they may just have at the store and not listed? Can't really find to many others on the net as well. Any suggestions?

[hasan]

Yes, that's correct. The HR10 couldn't pull signal either. I haven't seen the attenuator on radio shack's website. Is this something they may just have at the store and not listed? Can't really find to many others on the net as well. Any suggestions?

They should have both the little nipple style 75 ohm terminations and the variable attenuator in the store...I bought them both there. I never looked on line.

[biggorilla]

They should have both the little nipple style 75 ohm terminations and the variable attenuator in the store...I bought them both there. I never looked on line.

Thanks for a the help. I give it a try and report back. I don't need any terminators, just one in and one out of the amp.

You mentioned different sensitivities to different ATSC Tuners, can you elaborate? Have you encountered this difference before?

[eengert]

That works great, but only if you need 1 channel off the 2nd antenna. If you need 2 or more the jointenna is useless.

What you're doing by using a splitter/combiner won't work for everyone. In many cases you'll get multipath issues, which will degrade your signal on all frequencies.

The purpose of the jointenna is to block one frequency for one line in and block all but the one frequency for the other line in and then combine them, thus receiving one and only one instance of each frequency. If you have multipath issues and you require more than one frequency combined, you'll need to use multiple jointennas cascaded.

[Kentstater]

I believe that functionality will come to the unit in a future release, but for now they opted to enable the channels they had guide data for.

Whoa...
Are you saying I will only get the OTA predetermined by my DMA?

I get Detroit on the satellite. I will not be able to scan for Toledo stations?

[VeniceDre]

First off I've had my box since mid-August during the intial Los Angeles roll-out... I've been staying away from the forum (lurking) until the OTA got activated. I've been using the HR10-250 still as my primarys... Hello again to all of y'all.

I just finished the OTA setup. Most of the signals are in the high 90s except for two which are in the 80s. Those have always been lower anyway on the HR10-250. I'm at the beach so I'm a good distance away from the towers... I'm using a simple splitter on the roof to split my OTA to different areas of the house so I can say that the OTA tuners seem to be strong and the signal level is the same for both.

I noticed if I record 2 channels at once I can just key in the previous channel to get back to the other channel... I guess this will be my dual tuner workaround while watching football on Sundays...

Both OTA recordings going seem to be fine and I'm not experiencing any glitching while rewinding and fast forwarding. If I have any problems I'll post.

[Herdfan]

For those using an amplifier, do you have a DC block connected to the input of the HR20? I don't know how the HR20 will react, but the HR10's hated DC current coming into the OTA input.

Just a thought.:)

[Earl Bonovich]

Whoa...
Are you saying I will only get the OTA predetermined by my DMA?

I get Detroit on the satellite. I will not be able to scan for Toledo stations?

You have the opportunity to designate "two" DMA's.

[jamieh1]

Earl,

I have a question.

I held off on getting an HR20 earlier this year due to not getting a good enough deal and the lack of an OTA tuner, along with issues experienced by those who own the HR20... and I'm glad I waited since OTA kept being delayed and MOST of my viewing are the networks.

HOWEVER, I do have some questions regarding the OTA guide.

1. I live in a smaller DMA (#147) surrounded by two bigger DMAs (#109 & #125), and one of the few complaints I've had regarding the HR10-250 (as well as other DirecTV HD receivers) are the option for only TWO DMAs. Is there any hope for the HR20 to ever support more?

2. Two of the DMAs I live in have some inccorect guide data information being sent. One of them, WTXL-DT (27-1 & 27-2) has both channels listed on DirecTV HD receivers as 27-1. In my DMA, we have one missing sub-channel, one channel whose primary channel information is missing, and one whose primary channel is missing, but there sub-channel information is available on the wrong RF frequency. My question is this, will DirecTV setup a page ala TiVo where you can report incorrect guide data since the HR20 is their baby?

Also, as a little note, while the HR10-250 started out setting up their local networks with a zip code ala the HR20, they later (with a software upgrade) made it where you could pick a DMA by name which made it a lot easier during initial setup for people who didn't know a zip code in their secondary market. Pass it along! ;)

~Alan

In my market my local NBC CBS and FOX has added channels, I emailed zap2it.com they handle the guide data for Directv, theres a section there that allows you to email them about channel guide problems, theyll ask what station, what city, what service provider and other info, usually in 2-3 weeks the info appears on the Directv guide.

[RunnerFL]

For those using an amplifier, do you have a DC block connected to the input of the HR20? I don't know how the HR20 will react, but the HR10's hated DC current coming into the OTA input.

Just a thought.:)


My HR10 has no problem with the DC Block. That may however be because it's on the other side of the splitter from the HR10.

[Capmeister]

I believe that functionality will come to the unit in a future release, but for now they opted to enable the channels they had guide data for.


I'm not sure I understand... I will be able to tune in more than one DMA, will I not?

[Earl Bonovich]

I'm not sure I understand... I will be able to tune in more than one DMA, will I not?

Yes you will... you can designate two DMA's during setup.

What you "can't do", is do a scan of all frequency and by the off chance you are picking up something else, have that channel as well.

[mrshermanoaks]

Well, my post is actually about using the HR20 with OTA, so I'm not sure it belongs in this thread :) But I'll give it a try anyways.

I've got a small directional antenna I picked up awhile ago just for testing, it's worked in bringing in stations to my TV's built-in tuner when I have needed it (have to move it around sometimes, depending on which channel I'm trying to get).

What's strange right now us that I'm seeing a discrepancy in the Signal Meter between OTA Tuner 1 and 2: On one channel, Tuner 2 will show 74% and tuner 1 will show 25%. On another, Tuner 2 will show 44% and Tuner 1 will show "not acquired".

Any ideas on this?

[bagleyb]

Does D* get guide data for any of the channels that they don't carry as locals as part of TC packages? I think there are a couple in Tulsa that D* doesn't carry, and I'm sure there are in other DMAs.

[Capmeister]

Yes you will... you can designate two DMA's during setup.

What you "can't do", is do a scan of all frequency and by the off chance you are picking up something else, have that channel as well.

That shouldn't make too much of a difference now, but I hope they add that functionality eventually.

I'll take dual buffers first tho. :D

[Capmeister]

Well, my post is actually about using the HR20 with OTA, so I'm not sure it belongs in this thread :) But I'll give it a try anyways.

I've got a small directional antenna I picked up awhile ago just for testing, it's worked in bringing in stations to my TV's built-in tuner when I have needed it (have to move it around sometimes, depending on which channel I'm trying to get).

What's strange right now us that I'm seeing a discrepancy in the Signal Meter between OTA Tuner 1 and 2: On one channel, Tuner 2 will show 74% and tuner 1 will show 25%. On another, Tuner 2 will show 44% and Tuner 1 will show "not acquired".

Any ideas on this?

Does it tune both to the same frequency?

[mrshermanoaks]

Does it tune both to the same frequency?

It says it is. You use the + and - to move through the OTA channels that you have enabled.

On KNBCDT2 it shows 77% on Tuner 2 and bounces between 25% and "not acquired" on tuner 1. When I try to tune to the station, I get a "searching for OTA signal" message.

On KABCDT2 (7-2) I show nearly 100% on tuner 2 and not acquired on tuner 1.

[updated- I can set something to record blankness on OTA 1, then surf properly on OTA 2, so why isn't Tuner 1 working? Hardware or software?]

[sgrimess]

How do I hook up my OTA antenna now? I have two jacks in my wall, one used to be for my Sony HD 300 from the sat, and the other was for my OTA. Now, both are being used by the HR20-700. Do I have to run another cable down through my wall and put it another jack? Or can I split something, don't know what, but can I?

Thanks,

Steve

[texasbrit]

An installer once told me that if you further split a split signal your quickly degrade your signal (100% - 50/50 - 50/25/25 - 50/25/12.5/12.5 etc.). He said the best way to preserve the best signal is to use a multi-splitter (not a multi-switch - different purpose). So I'm planning to rewire with a 1 to 4 or 5 splitter.

A multisplitter has exactly the same losses as stacking individual splitters - a two-way splitter loses around 3.5db per output, a four-way splitter 7db and so on. The only real advantage of the multiway splitter is that there are less connectors so less to go wrong.

[chicagojim]

BTW Earl, regarding yesterday's thread on the NFC playoffs and assuming the OTA rollout works well, we'll be covered well before the playoffs start. Please give your contact a hearty thank you from a Cowboys fan!!


Speaking as a Bears fan . . . .


See you in Chicago (probably)! ;)

[Meklos]

A multisplitter has exactly the same losses as stacking individual splitters - a two-way splitter loses around 3.5db per output, a four-way splitter 7db and so on. The only real advantage of the multiway splitter is that there are less connectors so less to go wrong.

You save a tiny bit on only having one set of insertion loss... but that's about it.

[RunnerFL]

Does D* get guide data for any of the channels that they don't carry as locals as part of TC packages? I think there are a couple in Tulsa that D* doesn't carry, and I'm sure there are in other DMAs.

Yes, they do.

[Groundhog45]

How do I hook up my OTA antenna now? I have two jacks in my wall, one used to be for my Sony HD 300 from the sat, and the other was for my OTA. Now, both are being used by the HR20-700. Do I have to run another cable down through my wall and put it another jack? Or can I split something, don't know what, but can I?

Thanks,

Steve

You will need to pull another cable. You can't diplex on lines running to the MPEG4 equipment. Good luck.

GH

[Sackchamp56]

Does anyone with a Sony a2000 SXRD have an opinion on which tuner seems to perform better, the internal one in the TV or the HR20. I am fairly far from most of my OTA sources, and am hoping the HR20s tuner might just perform a little better than the tvs tuner.

[toy4two]

You have the opportunity to designate "two" DMA's.


What about Mexican HD stations we recieve on our old OTA Directv boxes? How do you designate those?

[Coffey77]

Speaking as a Bears fan . . . .


See you in Chicago (probably)! ;)

That with or without Flex Interception?:nono2:

[akron05]

It is going to be SLOW at first, then move quickly after that. I don't expect it to take as long as 6.3 did for the HR10

What about new subscribers? Will new subs get the HR20 with proper software for OTA?

[Earl Bonovich]

What about Mexican HD stations we recieve on our old OTA Directv boxes? How do you designate those?

I do not know.

[Earl Bonovich]

What about new subscribers? Will new subs get the HR20 with proper software for OTA?

They would update just like everyone else.
So if the code goes "national" before the activate, then yes... they would get it with the first 15-20 minutes of being activated.

If it hasn't gotten activated, then it would depend on what area/region they are in.

[Coffey77]

What about new subscribers? Will new subs get the HR20 with proper software for OTA?

I'm guessing it'll depend on when they are put together. If they have thousands already made, they aren't going to waste the time to program each of them - take them out of the box and everything. I'd guess they'd just update when you plug them in, just like everyone else.:)

[forum junkie]

Earl - I am on the West Coast ( Washington ) but my OTA is still grayed out. Can I assume that even the West Coast release has been staggered ?

Sorry - went and read the other thread. Thanks

[davidord]

Since OTA is now active, is there a timeframe to activate FTM? In order to connect an antenna, I would need to cut into my walls in my house (not a good idea). If FTM is activated, I could use the second RG-6 cable for the antenna.

[Earl Bonovich]

Since OTA is now active, is there a timeframe to activate FTM? In order to connect an antenna, I would need to cut into my walls in my house (not a good idea). If FTM is activated, I could use the second RG-6 cable for the antenna.

There is no "time frame yet", but... we have some more informaiton really soon.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl - I am on the West Coast ( Washington ) but my OTA is still grayed out. Can I assume that even the West Coast release has been staggered ?

Yes... it is a small subset of the Pacific Time zone that currently has it.

[wtrax]

I know it has been said many times that recording two programs and watching a third live is not possible and I know Earl has mentioned it in his "Welcome to ATSC/OTA" thread about recording three thing at once, but I am curious is this a hardware limitation or a software limitation? If it is software can I assume it may be added at some point? Is it related to some other feature like dual live buffers?

[spidey]

Yes... it is a small subset of the Pacific Time zone that currently has it.

do they choose determining west coast by zip in the unit or zip of billing address of receiver? Just wondering if you could change settings in the hr20 to force it to get the SW?

[Earl Bonovich]

do they choose determining west coast by zip in the unit or zip of billing address of receiver? Just wondering if you could change settings in the hr20 to force it to get the SW?

Billing Address... (basically there is nothing you can do on your side to "trick" it into giving you the update)

[Tom Robertson]

Billing Address... (basically there is nothing you can do on your side to "trick" it into giving you the update)

Billing or Service address? While most often the same, not always.

Cheers,
Tom

[Earl Bonovich]

Billing or Service address? While most often the same, not always.

Cheers,
Tom

Ooohh... not sure... most likely Service, but don't quote me on that one.
Either way... not much you can do about it on your end, and they "already" have zoned the updates... so trying to "move" won't do you any good.

[packfan909]

Ooohh... not sure... most likely Service, but don't quote me on that one.
Either way... not much you can do about it on your end, and they "already" have zoned the updates... so trying to "move" won't do you any good.


Seems like this has only been implemented in the greater Los Angeles area. No one has reported OTA outside of this area.

[EMoMoney]

Since OTA is now active, is there a timeframe to activate FTM?

:confused:

[Earl Bonovich]

FTM is a method by which you no longer need multiswitches, and only 1 line to the HR20 to get dual recording.

the HR20 already has FTM support, however... there is no IN-HOUSE FTM unit available yet, to take the signal from the dish and convert it to an FTM signal.

[dixoncider]

put up some rabbit ears and getting a great picture

[pcbosis]

I went to Best Buy and purchased a Terk HDTVa indoor amplified antenna pro and it seems to be working quite well. I live about 60 miles (Santa Ana, Ca) from the main antennas on Mount Wilson. Its nice to be able to get more local hi def channels than what DTV has to offer. Is there anyone out there that has a good outdoor HD antenna that I can hook up to a rotor to allow me to get the LA and San Diego stations?

Thanks

[911medic]

I went to Best Buy and purchased a Terk HDTVa indoor amplified antenna pro and it seems to be working quite well. I live about 60 miles (Santa Ana, Ca) from the main antennas on Mount Wilson. Its nice to be able to get more local hi def channels than what DTV has to offer. Is there anyone out there that has a good outdoor HD antenna that I can hook up to a rotor to allow me to get the LA and San Diego stations?

ThanksYou may want to post something over here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45)... Lots of good info on local (specific) HDTV/antennas/etc.

[Earl Bonovich]

I went to Best Buy and purchased a Terk HDTVa indoor amplified antenna pro and it seems to be working quite well. I live about 60 miles (Santa Ana, Ca) from the main antennas on Mount Wilson. Its nice to be able to get more local hi def channels than what DTV has to offer. Is there anyone out there that has a good outdoor HD antenna that I can hook up to a rotor to allow me to get the LA and San Diego stations?

Thanks

As with the HR10-250... rotor based installations are not a good idea with the DVR.

As the DVR has no way to "tell" the antenna to shift directions.

If you talk with the people at AVSForum, that have "techniques" by which you can install multiple antenna's to eliminate the need for rotors.

[hfhlt004]

I probably received the update earlier today, noticed the light, but will have to have had to work with it. My original understanding was that I would be able to record 3 programs at one time. What happened to that plan? This has been done by other DVRs and seems really useful. The good programs are often competing at the same time.

I'll have to have Directv or someone out again to hook my rooftop antenna to the rest of my cabling. The installer originally refused to do it because it was not on the work order. It is sitting right next to the dish on my roof, but the wiring only goes to my upstairs TV. They had a crane to put up the dish for the HR20, but would not run an extra cable for the HR20 downstairs. Being single, I don't want two recorders.

[harleylay1]

ok let me ask somebody that on the ota, if the hd channels are not available will i be able to pick them up via ota, if not what would the ota benefit me for thanks

[Tom Robertson]

ok let me ask somebody that on the ota, if the hd channels are not available will i be able to pick them up via ota, if not what would the ota benefit me for thanks

If the HD channels are not sent by D*, you might be able to get them Over The Air "OTA". All depends on if you can receive the signals from the broadcast towers.

If you can receive them, you will typically find OTA has a better picture (at the expense of taking more recording space on disk) and you will typically find non-HD and HD digital channels that D* might never carry like a local weather or news channel, all the PBS channels, etc.

Cheers,
Tom

[Jeremy W]

FTM is a method by which you no longer need multiswitches
I was under the impression you needed a special FTM-compatible multiswitch...

[sthor]

I am using an Antennacraft HDX1000 with my Dish VIP622 and getting astounding results on local OTA's about 35 miles SE of the Christmas, FL (antenna farm for major Orlando locals). Easy to mount. Does require a dedicated coax since it feeds power to an amp in the antenna via coax.

http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm

[S. DiThomas]

OTA and 104 download active on both of my boxes today. Came in at 2:45 AM on 12/7.

Now I have to actually hook an antenna up and see if I can get anything in my new location. Why did I move? :bang

Anyone else here near Greer Ranch in Murrieta, CA 92562 (East of 15, West of 215and near Nutmeg and Clinton Keith) with OTA on any prior boxes?

I think the hills block my 300 degree site of Mt. Wilson but I have to go grab an antenna before I pay to have

the Big Gun

http://www.winegard.com/offair/antennas/hd8200p.htm

mounted permanently.

[Coffey77]

My original understanding was that I would be able to record 3 programs at one time. What happened to that plan? This has been done by other DVRs and seems really useful.

I too was under that impression as I believe it was D* who said it and I just can't place where I read that. Is it in the manual? Honestly, my memory is horrible but I know I've seen it somewhere...

[hasan]

I too was under that impression as I believe it was D* who said it and I just can't place where I read that. Is it in the manual? Honestly, my memory is horrible but I know I've seen it somewhere...

It's in the manual as 3, but the manual is WRONG. It is well established that 2 at once is the limit, no matte what the source, sat or ota. Take it to the bank. It is also UNLIKELY if not impossible that it will ever be increased. That is what Earl has said, repeatedly when questioned and requestioned. I'll go with Earl. Forget the manual or anything that a CSR or D* phone person might say.

You can record two at a time, but the only way to watch a 3rd program at the same time is if you have previously recorded it.

N.B. you can watch a 3rd program, of course, on your TV if it has a tuner and you have split the antenna feed between the HR20 and your TV. I do the split and it works fine.

[Capmeister]

OTA and 104 download active on both of my boxes today. Came in at 2:45 AM on 12/7.

Now I have to actually hook an antenna up and see if I can get anything in my new location. Why did I move? :bang

Anyone else here near Greer Ranch in Murrieta, CA 92562 (East of 15, West of 215and near Nutmeg and Clinton Keith) with OTA on any prior boxes?

I think the hills block my 300 degree site of Mt. Wilson but I have to go grab an antenna before I pay to have

the Big Gun

http://www.winegard.com/offair/antennas/hd8200p.htm

mounted permanently.

That's the antenna I have on my roof. It's pretty good. I have a preamp on it and can get in from as far as 45 or 50 miles with consistancy. I have gotten from as far away as 60 miles, but not strong enough for digital. (Talking UHF here.)

[texasbrit]

OTA and 104 download active on both of my boxes today. Came in at 2:45 AM on 12/7.

Now I have to actually hook an antenna up and see if I can get anything in my new location. Why did I move? :bang

Anyone else here near Greer Ranch in Murrieta, CA 92562 (East of 15, West of 215and near Nutmeg and Clinton Keith) with OTA on any prior boxes?

I think the hills block my 300 degree site of Mt. Wilson but I have to go grab an antenna before I pay to have

the Big Gun

http://www.winegard.com/offair/antennas/hd8200p.htm

mounted permanently.

When I go to antennaweb and put in your zip code, these are the results:

* violet - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 301° 66.1 29
* violet - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 301° 66.0 49
* violet - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.5 60
* violet - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.1 43
* violet - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 301° 66.1 32
* violet - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 301° 66.0 48
* violet - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.1 35
* violet - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 301° 65.8 65
* violet - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 CW LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.0 31

You could go to the site and put in your actual address rather than the zip, will give you more correct results. Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations and if I increase the height a number of other stations appear including KNBC and KABC. So it looks like with the right antenna you will get a decent set of digitals OTA.

At your distance you will need a good outdoor antenna, all your stations are UHF although KCAL-DT is going back to channel 9 and KTTV back to channel 11 in the VHF-hi band when analog goes away in 2009. The best UHF antennas for your location will be the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG, they have pretty well the same performance in general and are almost certainly the best available UHF antennas. Although both of them also have decent performance on VHF-hi band, at your range you will probably need to couple a VHF-hi antenna when KCAL and KTTV move back to VHF in 2009. Suggest you use a CM7777 preamp; this has the option of separate UHF and VHF inputs which makes it easier to couple a VHF antenna with your UHF antenna.

[Capmeister]

I've noticed Antennaweb.org really lacking of late. Today it didn't meniton most of the stations I get strong and with regularity. It doesn't know others have gone digital.

[gb33]

In regards to the FTM stuff. When I had my install done originally back in Sept my installer said sometimes he has seen it where the antenna diplexing does not harm the signal, and others when it does. What are your thoughts? I recall after he hooked it up, everything including my MP4 locals, was working but signal was low. So I hopped up in the attic and disconnected the antenna and diplexer. However there was no difference at all in the local (99*) signal. it turns out the dish wasn't peaked nor tightened up to well, so I have not accurately tested it since.
I CAN move my antenna to roof (in attic) and come in through outside wall, but obviously I would rather not and it is a bit nipley out.

[hasan]

In regards to the FTM stuff. When I had my install done originally back in Sept my installer said sometimes he has seen it where the antenna diplexing does not harm the signal, and others when it does. What are your thoughts? I recall after he hooked it up, everything including my MP4 locals, was working but signal was low. So I hopped up in the attic and disconnected the antenna and diplexer. However there was no difference at all in the local (99*) signal. it turns out the dish wasn't peaked nor tightened up to well, so I have not accurately tested it since.
I CAN move my antenna to roof (in attic) and come in through outside wall, but obviously I would rather not and it is a bit nipley out.

For shame! A Green Bay fan, and worried about it being a bit nippy?:D

It will interfere later, when the MP4s become more prevalent. If I were you, I'd bite the bullet, put on several layers of clothes and do it right. As I recall, you might be ok for quite some time (certainly until spring/summer)...someone else can comment on the timeline, so if you wimp out and want to get by until warm weather, you might do ok...but you are going to have to stop the diplexing sooner or later.

[Tom Robertson]

In regards to the FTM stuff. When I had my install done originally back in Sept my installer said sometimes he has seen it where the antenna diplexing does not harm the signal, and others when it does. What are your thoughts? I recall after he hooked it up, everything including my MP4 locals, was working but signal was low. So I hopped up in the attic and disconnected the antenna and diplexer. However there was no difference at all in the local (99*) signal. it turns out the dish wasn't peaked nor tightened up to well, so I have not accurately tested it since.
I CAN move my antenna to roof (in attic) and come in through outside wall, but obviously I would rather not and it is a bit nipley out.

Ignore the rabble (meant affectionately). Packer fans can get cold too, we just know how to dress appropriately for the cold. :)

Where are you in relation to the towers? You likely can keep the antenna in the attic, but place it as close to the wall/roof side facing the towers and be good. (I'm 40 miles away from SLC towers and outdoor antenna mounted in attic has worked great.)

Then, can you drop the coax inside the wall to the HR20? Keeps everything neat (my wife appreciates that aspect). Or down an inside wall to crawlspace/basement and come back up into HR20?

Cheers,
Tom

[Bad Rex]

This is a long shot but I would swap out the monster cable, especially if it isn't RG-6. But even if it is, a 3-ft RG-6 from Radio Shack would be worth a try. I've heard a lot of strange stories about monster cables.


Ok, here's the OTA puzzle.

I have a Terk HDTVs mounted on the roof of my apartment building and an independent run to a ASKA Model: AM-125 25db Gain Distribution Amplifier inside near the HR20 and a 3ft Monster Coax to the HR20.

Now here's the puzzle, when the antenna is hooked directly to my TV Sony KDFE50A10, I get every possible Off Air channel available here in Los Angeles. When I hook it up to the HR20 (Same for the ole' HR10-250), I get PBS-HD but nothing else.

What a puzzle! I would love to have the same performance OTA as my TV in the HR20. Help anyone? :D

[gb33]

Then, can you drop the coax inside the wall to the HR20? Keeps everything neat (my wife appreciates that aspect). Or down an inside wall to crawlspace/basement and come back up into HR20?

Cheers,
Tom


Oh trust me I do all I can to keep my "goodies" in line so it is okay to her. She has trouble enough with the tiny Sirius antenna on top of the tv. Unfortunately I have also tried this. However I have vaulted ceilings in my LR and it is a VERY tight squeeze up there between rafters and roof. I CANNOT get close enough to the wall to do this I tried snaking up from bottom and grabbing it up there as well, but no luck. My best option would be popping out the soffit and getting at it that way, but that isn't all that easy or fun. I just know it is visible because I had a repair in soffit I did earlier in the year.
I will try inside antenna for now as it is just one VHF channel I need and I am not all too far from towers.

[Slip Jigs]

I'm mostly satisfied with the local channels over the dish, so I'm trying to figure out how much effort I'm willing to put into getting OTA working. I currently have the indoor rabbit ears with the UHF loop, but it doesn't cut it.

1. Is the OTA signal compressed (such as MPEG 4), or is there some other format used that usually provides a slightly better PQ than sat MPEG 4?
2. Does the 5LNB dish include support of any time for an OTA antenna? Something perhaps like an add-on and/or make use of existing cabling?

Basically, if I have to install an outside antenna, run cable and switches or boxes or splitters or whatever-plexors it won't be worth it. TIA!

[bonscott87]

I'm mostly satisfied with the local channels over the dish, so I'm trying to figure out how much effort I'm willing to put into getting OTA working. I currently have the indoor rabbit ears with the UHF loop, but it doesn't cut it.

1. Is the OTA signal compressed (such as MPEG 4), or is there some other format used that usually provides a slightly better PQ than sat MPEG 4?
2. Does the 5LNB dish include support of any time for an OTA antenna? Something perhaps like an add-on and/or make use of existing cabling?

Basically, if I have to install an outside antenna, run cable and switches or boxes or splitters or whatever-plexors it won't be worth it. TIA!

1) Sure it's compressed, every signal is. How much depends on your local stations. My CBS for example has bad HD OTA because it has 2 subchannels and bit starves it's HD. But OTA is generaly accepted as better quality/PQ. It's the best you can get. In my market OTA and MPEG4 from D* is pretty close. If you are satisfied with what you get from D* then I wouldn't worry about OTA unless you want the subchannels or others not available via D*.

2) No. You need to run OTA via it's own cable to your antenna.

[nocaster]

I'm mostly satisfied with the local channels over the dish, so I'm trying to figure out how much effort I'm willing to put into getting OTA working. I currently have the indoor rabbit ears with the UHF loop, but it doesn't cut it.

1. Is the OTA signal compressed (such as MPEG 4), or is there some other format used that usually provides a slightly better PQ than sat MPEG 4?
2. Does the 5LNB dish include support of any time for an OTA antenna? Something perhaps like an add-on and/or make use of existing cabling?

Basically, if I have to install an outside antenna, run cable and switches or boxes or splitters or whatever-plexors it won't be worth it. TIA!

Basically, the signal you get OTA is as good as it's going to get...and it is outstanding. ATSC uses MPEG-2 for compression. There are probably more channels available in your area via OTA than what D* sends you over the SAT. Also, there is something satisfying about recieving a beautiful HD picture with the same antennas that my Dad and Grandfather used to get snowy pictures 30 years ago.

[Bad Rex]

If you are satisfied with what you get from D* then I wouldn't worry about OTA unless you want the subchannels or others not available via D*.

I would say this is really the major factor: What do you want to watch?
If you're already getting it via 5LNB, and OTA is a hassle to set up, forget about it! But if there's quality programming you are missing without OTA and it's not likely to be added to D* anytime soon, you might want to give OTA a shot.

[forklifter]

Just curious if I sign up for locals on my cable company can I hook up my HR20 to cable.

[texasbrit]

I've noticed Antennaweb.org really lacking of late. Today it didn't meniton most of the stations I get strong and with regularity. It doesn't know others have gone digital.

It's the database it is using. Many stations went to full power in late summer and this hasn't been fully included in the database.

[Bad Rex]

Just curious if I sign up for locals on my cable company can I hook up my HR20 to cable.

No. Cable channels require a QAM tuner. The HR20's is ATSC.

[DeanS]

As an L.A. HR20 owner with OTA now enabled, I have a question:

Last night I had both satellite tuners recording programs at the same time (My Name is Earl and Survivor). While this recording was happening I decided to watch a third, previously recorded program from my program list at the same time, - no problem, as usual.

I then decided to experiment and stopped the previous recorded program, went to the program guide and selected an OTA channel. I got the standard screen showing the two programs I set up recording and asking which one I wanted to cancel. I thought the OTA tuners were "independent" and that I would be able to watch live on at least one of the two OTA tuners while the satellite tuners were occupied. Am I missing something?

[Jeremy W]

I thought the OTA tuners were "independent" and that I would be able to watch live on at least one of the two OTA tuners while the satellite tuners were occupied. Am I missing something?
The OTA tuners are not independent. You can only have a total of two tuners active at one time, period.

[bonscott87]

As an L.A. HR20 owner with OTA now enabled, I have a question:

Last night I had both satellite tuners recording programs at the same time (My Name is Earl and Survivor). While this recording was happening I decided to watch a third, previously recorded program from my program list at the same time, - no problem, as usual.

I then decided to experiment and stopped the previous recorded program, went to the program guide and selected an OTA channel. I got the standard screen showing the two programs I set up recording and asking which one I wanted to cancel. I thought the OTA tuners were "independent" and that I would be able to watch live on at least one of the two OTA tuners while the satellite tuners were occupied. Am I missing something?

It can only do two streams at once. So to watch an OTA it would need to cancel one of the sat recordings. This is no different then the HD-DirecTivo or any of the SD DirecTivo's, only 2 streams at once (and watch a 3rd recorded).

This isn't directed at you personally, but I'm not quite sure why so many people are having trouble with this concept, it's one that we've lived with for years and is nothing new. :D ;)

[Jeremy W]

I'm not quite sure why so many people are having trouble with this concept, it's one that we've lived with for years and is nothing new. :D ;)
Many people have not lived with it for years. The HR20 is the first HDDVR for quite a few people around here, myself included.

[bonscott87]

Many people have not lived with it for years. The HR20 is the first HDDVR for quite a few people around here, myself included.

It's my first HD-DVR as well but the regular DirecTivo's that have been around for 5 years are the same way, record 2/watch a third.

Anyway, wasn't meaning to put anyone down but the HR20 is no different in technology in this way.

[Bay CIty]

The OTA tuners are not independent. You can only have a total of two tuners active at one time, period.

one thing the other poster could do is spit out his OTA cable to his hr-20 and to the back of his television. Then on the rare occasion when he needs to view three programs he could watch one going thru his tv (of course you wouldn`t have and ff, replay or other dvr functions. and record the other two channels for later viewing via the hr-20

[Jeremy W]

one thing the other poster could do is spit out his OTA cable to his hr-20 and to the back of his television.
If his TV has an ATSC tuner, yes.

[Bay CIty]

If his TV has an ATSC tuner, yes.

correct, I forgot to mention that, thanks

[Angelus7310]

Quick question from a long time lurker (at least since the HR20 was available.) I purchased the OTA antenna from D* when I began service with them. It appears to be a multidirectional UHF antenna mounted on the roof near the dish. Is this antenna any good? Or should I make the trek out to my local Radio Shack and pick up a different antenna. BTW I still have a few days till OTA gets activated way up here in the boonies, so I can't test anything just yet.

[rhweimer]

It's my first HD-DVR as well but the regular DirecTivo's that have been around for 5 years are the same way, record 2/watch a third.

Anyway, wasn't meaning to put anyone down but the HR20 is no different in technology in this way.

Could be because the HR20 manual says you can do it!:hurah:

[iacas]

one thing the other poster could do is spit out his OTA cable to his hr-20 and to the back of his television. Then on the rare occasion when he needs to view three programs he could watch one going thru his tv (of course you wouldn`t have and ff, replay or other dvr functions. and record the other two channels for later viewing via the hr-20

I nominate that for inclusion in Craig's HR20 Tips and Tricks document. I'd include it in my Troubleshooting document but... it's not troubleshooting! :)

[litzdog911]

Quick question from a long time lurker (at least since the HR20 was available.) I purchased the OTA antenna from D* when I began service with them. It appears to be a multidirectional UHF antenna mounted on the roof near the dish. Is this antenna any good? Or should I make the trek out to my local Radio Shack and pick up a different antenna. BTW I still have a few days till OTA gets activated way up here in the boonies, so I can't test anything just yet.

Have you used this antenna yet? If it receives your local digital TV channels, then it's fine. Otherwise just wait to try it with your HR20 when OTA is activated. Antenna selection is more art than science. Check out Earl's thread at the top of this Forum for the best antenna selection resources at AVS Forum.

[Milominderbinder2]

Originally Posted by Bay CIty
one thing the other poster could do is spit out his OTA cable to his hr-20 and to the back of his television. Then on the rare occasion when he needs to view three programs he could watch one going thru his tv (of course you wouldn`t have and ff, replay or other dvr functions. and record the other two channels for later viewing via the hr-20

I nominate that for inclusion in Craig's HR20 Tips and Tricks document. I'd include it in my Troubleshooting document but... it's not troubleshooting! :)
Great suggestion. I will add this!
- Craig

[mikeny]

Could be because the HR20 manual says you can do it!:hurah:

I actually think D* screwed that up a lot worse than releasing the box without OTA enabled because at least, in most cases there was a sticker saying "Coming Late 2006", you'll get that described feature from the manual.

Writing that you could record 3 shows when they really meant 2 was a TERRIBLE and SIGNIFICANT oversight. Whoever let that go to press should be held accountable.

I'm just glad I read the truth here first.

[Slip Jigs]

Basically, the signal you get OTA is as good as it's going to get...and it is outstanding. ATSC uses MPEG-2 for compression. There are probably more channels available in your area via OTA than what D* sends you over the SAT. Also, there is something satisfying about recieving a beautiful HD picture with the same antennas that my Dad and Grandfather used to get snowy pictures 30 years ago.

So OTA Mpeg 2 is better than Mpeg 4 over sat? How is this managed, higher bitrate?

[hasan]

So OTA Mpeg 2 is better than Mpeg 4 over sat? How is this managed, higher bitrate?

1. No transcoding from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 for the satellites (that's D*'s source for MPEG-4/OTA-HD Locals.

2. Definitely higher bit rates OTA-HD (at least in this area)

3. MPEG-4 via Sat has its own issues yet...some places it is not doing very well at all, other places it is fine, but still subject to #1 and 2 above.


OTA-HD is the Gold Standard of HDTV, and is likely to remain so for quite sometime

[Jeremy W]

So OTA Mpeg 2 is better than Mpeg 4 over sat? How is this managed, higher bitrate?
It is a higher bitrate, but that's irrelevant because MPEG4 is more efficient than MPEG2. The main reason is because the OTA MPEG2 is the source, and the sat MPEG4 is recompressed.

[Slip Jigs]

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to take advantage of OTA - those are some compelling stats.

Now, to just get find a way to install an antenna without having to crawl around on the roof... (I do have an attic!) :lol:

[Earl Bonovich]

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to take advantage of OTA - those are some compelling stats.

Now, to just get find a way to install an antenna without having to crawl around on the roof... (I do have an attic!) :lol:

One thing to remember.... MPEG-2 will take up more space on your hard drive...

About 33% more..

[Jeremy W]

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to take advantage of OTA - those are some compelling stats.
Have you ever done a comparison between MPEG4 and OTA? The difference is very slight, and IMO the HD space advantage you get with MPEG4 is enough to push me over the edge.

[Slip Jigs]

One thing to remember.... MPEG-2 will take up more space on your hard drive...

About 33% more..

Wow - you must be psychic (or this was the next logical step in the topic!)

So that's the first part - how much space each format needs for a recording. Then the HR20 doesn't compress anything any more when recording? Would this be the order of how much space is used (from least to most)?

1. SD programs
2. HD programs, non-local
3. HD programs, local
4. HD programs, OTA

And - any reports of the playback quaility of OTA recordings yet?

[Slip Jigs]

Have you ever done a comparison between MPEG4 and OTA? The difference is very slight, and IMO the HD space advantage you get with MPEG4 is enough to push me over the edge.

I agree the differnece is slight in most cases, but with programs that are meant for HD, like Heroes, I do notice that the OTA PQ is better (that's going right into the TV tho, I don't have the update yet)

[Jeremy W]

1. SD programs
2. HD programs, MPEG4 (locals, and HD channels next year)
3. HD programs, MPEG2 (national HD channels now)
4. HD programs, OTA

The HR20 captures the digital stream from all of these sources. It doesn't compress anything, and playback is exactly the same as the original in all cases.

[Slip Jigs]

1. SD programs
2. HD programs, MPEG4 (locals, and HD channels next year)
3. HD programs, MPEG2 (national HD channels now)
4. HD programs, OTA

The HR20 captures the digital stream from all of these sources. It doesn't compress anything, and playback is exactly the same as the original in all cases.

Oh - yep - I had 2 and 3 interchanged.

[harsh]

About 33% more..The field reports that I've seen place the number well under 25% savings.

It seems like that until they can actually wring out enough room for a full channel, they ought to be pumping out as good a picture as possible. Storage space saved on the hard drive isn't going to impress people as much as top quality PQ.

[iacas]

So that's the first part - how much space each format needs for a recording. Then the HR20 doesn't compress anything any more when recording?

It's very difficult (and gets you almost no space savings) to compress already compressed data. Codecs are very good at what they do. Try to .zip a folder of properly-built JPEGs and you often won't save even 5%.

Roundabout way of saying no, there's no further compression. It records the data stream.

Would this be the order of how much space is used (from least to most)?

1. SD programs
2. HD programs, non-local
3. HD programs, local
4. HD programs, OTA

I think it should be:

1. SD Programs
2. HD LIL programs (MPEG 4)
3. HD non-LIL (HDNet, etc. - MPEG 2)
4. HD OTA (MPEG 2)

Of course, if your local OTA network bit starves their OTA HD in order to fit more sub-channels, your MPEG2 OTA HD could actually look worse than your HD LIL via satellite. I don't know that this is HAPPENING anywhere, but theoretically it could.

[Jeremy W]

if your local OTA network bit starves their OTA HD in order to fit more sub-channels, your MPEG2 OTA HD could actually look worse than your HD LIL via satellite.
That could only happen if your local station provides DirecTV with a direct fiber feed, which is quite rare. The vast majority of the stations are grabbed OTA.

[iacas]

That could only happen if your local station provides DirecTV with a direct fiber feed, which is quite rare. The vast majority of the stations are grabbed OTA.
As I said, it's theoretically possible.

[Jeremy W]

As I said, it's theoretically possible.
Right but your local station would have to be bit starving the signal AND be one of the handful of stations that uses fiber. If they're just bit starving the signal, it's going to look bad on the HD LIL too.

[andbye]

I know the OX104 is a staggered roll-out but I am in the Sacramento area and have not received this latest upgrade/OTA enablement. All previous came automatically. Do I need to do something in the Setup area to activate the OX104 upgrade and OTA enablement? Sorry if this has been answered but I couldn't find it.

[hasan]

I know the OX104 is a staggered roll-out but I am in the Sacramento area and have not received this latest upgrade/OTA enablement. All previous came automatically. Do I need to do something in the Setup area to activate the OX104 upgrade and OTA enablement? Sorry if this has been answered but I couldn't find it.

No, you have to wait...this is roll out is a subset of the last one, so even West coast is sublimited. Just be patient...it will come...maybe not until Mon or Tue for you, Wed or after for us in the Midwest.

[mnassour]

It can only do two streams at once. So to watch an OTA it would need to cancel one of the sat recordings. This is no different then the HD-DirecTivo or any of the SD DirecTivo's, only 2 streams at once (and watch a 3rd recorded).

This isn't directed at you personally, but I'm not quite sure why so many people are having trouble with this concept, it's one that we've lived with for years and is nothing new. :D ;)


I think the issue may be that this is a common feature of each and every DVR that DirecTV issued with Tivo software. It really is one point where the HR20 software is a major step backward. Many times, I'm ready for light entertainment at 6:00 PM but want my choice of watching both local newscasts airing at that time later in the evening.

[Earl Bonovich]

I think the issue may be that this is a common feature of each and every DVR that DirecTV issued with Tivo software. It really is one point where the HR20 software is a major step backward. Many times, I'm ready for light entertainment at 6:00 PM but want my choice of watching both local newscasts airing at that time later in the evening.

Mnassour... I think you are referring to Dual Live Buffers...

What bonscott was point out, is that the unit will only work with two streams at once...

Both the DTivos and the DVR+ series can only work with two "content" streams at one time.... where they differ is that the DTivos allow you to "buffer" both of them, where the DVR+ can only buffer one.

[bgedney]

I am too lazy to keep reading all the threads, but I think that if you are expecting the updates and seem unable to get them, I would try attaching the antenna and restarting. That did the trick for me. I fourced an update, nothing happened, I booted the unit, and atttached the antenna, to see that the unit was still runnin 0xFA. My dad restarted the unit and it is now downloading Ox104. He doesn't know how to fource an update, so it did it manually.

Hope it helps.

Billy

[Jeremy W]

I think that if you are expecting the updates and seem unable to get them, I would try attaching the antenna and restarting. That did the trick for me.
It was a coincidence. Attaching the antenna makes absolutely no difference.

[mnassour]

Mnassour... I think you are referring to Dual Live Buffers...

What bonscott was point out, is that the unit will only work with two streams at once...

Both the DTivos and the DVR+ series can only work with two "content" streams at one time.... where they differ is that the DTivos allow you to "buffer" both of them, where the DVR+ can only buffer one.


Hmmmmmmmmm....well, right now I'm recording both Letterman and Leno on my HR10...and am watching something that was recorded earlier. My understanding is the HR20 cannot do this?

mn

[Jeremy W]

Hmmmmmmmmm....well, right now I'm recording both Letterman and Leno on my HR10...and am watching something that was recorded earlier. My understanding is the HR20 cannot do this?
The HR20 can certainly do this.

[farjo08]

This is great news! I can't wait until the update is released nationally as CW is the only channel I don't currently get in HD that I care about (for Smallville and Supernatural). I get a great singal indoors where I live on CW and Fox so this is great news!

Hopefully there aren't any major problems that were seen 2 updates ago and this will get rolled out early next week!

Earl, thanks for the heads up and the guide you created on setting up OTA is greatly appreciated!

[S. DiThomas]

When I go to antennaweb and put in your zip code, these are the results:

* violet - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 301° 66.1 29
* violet - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 301° 66.0 49
* violet - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.5 60
* violet - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.1 43
* violet - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 301° 66.1 32
* violet - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 301° 66.0 48
* violet - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.1 35
* violet - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 301° 65.8 65
* violet - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 CW LOS ANGELES CA 301° 66.0 31

You could go to the site and put in your actual address rather than the zip, will give you more correct results. Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations and if I increase the height a number of other stations appear including KNBC and KABC. So it looks like with the right antenna you will get a decent set of digitals OTA.

At your distance you will need a good outdoor antenna, all your stations are UHF although KCAL-DT is going back to channel 9 and KTTV back to channel 11 in the VHF-hi band when analog goes away in 2009. The best UHF antennas for your location will be the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG, they have pretty well the same performance in general and are almost certainly the best available UHF antennas. Although both of them also have decent performance on VHF-hi band, at your range you will probably need to couple a VHF-hi antenna when KCAL and KTTV move back to VHF in 2009. Suggest you use a CM7777 preamp; this has the option of separate UHF and VHF inputs which makes it easier to couple a VHF antenna with your UHF antenna.

texasbrit:

Thanks. I had great reception when I lived on the West side of the I15 but now I am further North/East, in the hills.

My coordinate mapping is less promising:
Lat: 33.603297
Long: -117.205601
Dec: 12 deg 45' E

My result so far is NO digital service at all if I do the "singal story" house height.

With a 15 foot boom/tower:
yellow - uhf KZSW-LP 27 IND HEMET CA 80° 3.2 27
blue - uhf KVEA 52 TEL CORONA CA 299° 62.7 52
blue - uhf KTBN 40 TBN SANTA ANA CA 300° 63.3 40
blue - vhf KTLA 5 CW LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.5 5
blue - uhf KVCR 24 PBS SAN BERNARDINO CA 342° 25.1 24
blue - uhf KWHY 22 IND LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 22
blue - vhf KTTV 11 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 11
blue - uhf KRCA 62 IND RIVERSIDE CA 299° 62.7 62
blue - uhf KXLA 44 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 300° 63.5 44
blue - uhf KSCI 18 IND LONG BEACH CA 299° 62.7 18
blue - uhf KOCE 50 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 300° 63.5 50
blue - uhf KMEX 34 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.5 34
blue - uhf KDOC 56 IND ANAHEIM CA 300° 63.5 56
blue - vhf KABC 7 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 7
blue - vhf KCAL 9 IND LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 9
blue - vhf KCBS 2 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 64.0 2
blue - uhf KCET 28 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 28
blue - vhf KCOP 13 MNT LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 13
blue - uhf KFTR 46 TFA LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 46
blue - uhf KLCS 58 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 58
blue - vhf KNBC 4 NBC LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.4 4
blue - uhf KAZA 54 AZA AVALON CA 300° 63.5 54
blue - uhf KPXN 30 i SAN BERNARDINO CA 314° 47.8 30
* violet - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 300° 63.5 49
* violet - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 300° 63.6 29
* violet - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 64.0 60
* violet - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 300° 63.6 32
* violet - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 35
* violet - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 300° 63.5 48
* violet - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 65
violet - uhf KPBS 15 PBS SAN DIEGO CA 150° 65.1 15
* violet - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 CW LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.5 31

With a 22 foot boom/tower (digital only) look at the dramatic difference:
* yellow - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 64.0 60
* red - uhf KNBC-DT 4.1 NBC LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.4 36
* red - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 300° 63.5 49
* red - uhf KCET-DT 28.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 59
* red - uhf KCOP-DT 13.1 MNT LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 66
* red - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 300° 63.6 29
* red - uhf KAZA-DT 54.1 AZA AVALON CA TBD 300° 63.5 47
* red - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 300° 63.5 48
* red - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 300° 63.6 32
* red - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 53
* red - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 43
* red - uhf KVEA-DT 39 TEL CORONA CA TBD 299° 62.7 39
* red - uhf KTBN-DT 23.1 TBN SANTA ANA CA 300° 63.3 23
* red - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 CW LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.5 31
* red - uhf KWHY-DT 22.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 42
* red - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 65
* red - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.6 35
* red - uhf KPXN-DT 30.1 i SAN BERNARDINO CA 299° 62.7 38
* red - uhf KRCA-DT 62.1 IND RIVERSIDE CA 299° 62.8 68
* red - uhf KXLA-DT 44.1 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 300° 63.6 51
* red - uhf KLCS-DT 58.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 300° 63.3 41
* violet - uhf KSCI-DT 18.1 IND LONG BEACH CA 299° 62.7 61

I am going to hop down to RatShack tomorrow and see what I can get unamplified with the following goodie:

$25.00 test case http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family. Then if I can get anything I will consider putting the actual big antenna up with the pre-amp.

Let's see how good the OTA in the HR-20 really is.

[bonscott87]

The HR20 is *exactly* the same as the HR10 (HDTivo) in how they handle recording 2 things at once and can watch a 3rd. The only difference is that the HR20 doesn't have dual *buffers*. The addition of OTA doesn't change any of this and now allows the recording of OTA as one or both content streams.

[richlife]

...it's going to look bad on the HD LIL too.

What is "LIL". Not familiar to me. thanks

[hasan]

What is "LIL". Not familiar to me. thanks

Local - In - Local

(The way D* delivers your local HD or SD content to you via Satellite)

[DaHound]

One thing I found out on the AVSforum.com is that don't be suckered into buying a strictly "HD" antenna. HD is being broadcast over UHF. In 2009 the VHF channels will be converted to some of the HD broadcasts.

If you are going to buy an antenna, buy one that supports both VHF and UHF.

[hasan]

One thing I found out on the AVSforum.com is that don't be suckered into buying a strictly "HD" antenna. HD is being broadcast over UHF. In 2009 the VHF channels will be converted to some of the HD broadcasts.

If you are going to buy an antenna, buy one that supports both VHF and UHF.

Depending on cost and difficulty of installation, (and your local situation until 2009), it may make sense to get a UHF antenna (cheap) for the interim and then replace it when the landscape becomes clear. I would expect some development of new antennas that respond to the requirements of the 2009 spectrum by then.

A very nice and inexpensive UHF only antenna (U-75 Radio Shack) is available for 25 bucks..and would serve many quite well during the interim. I know I'll be rethinking my entire antenna installation when things clear up...many stations will stay where they are, some will retreat to VHF...we won't know for some time yet, as the FCC has extended the period for stations to declare just where they want to end up come 2009. The U-75 has a 40" boom and corner reflector...it's a nice design for the money.

An interim strategy may make sense for those whose installation is not difficult, nor the antenna requirements expensive.

[gr8reb8]

One thing I found out on the AVSforum.com is that don't be suckered into buying a strictly "HD" antenna. HD is being broadcast over UHF. In 2009 the VHF channels will be converted to some of the HD broadcasts.

If you are going to buy an antenna, buy one that supports both VHF and UHF.

I agree with your conclusion, however, here in West Michigan, the local channels are already broadcasting HD on the following VHF channels, 2 (CBS), 7 (NBC) and 11 (PBS).

[Earl Bonovich]

There is no such thing as an "HD" antenna

"Content" has nothing to do with transmission.
The antenna is part of the transmission process. Not the "content" portion.

.......

While there is no such thing as "HD" antenna.
There is such a thing as "quality" though.

Getting the right antenna, maximizes your $$.
You can easily spend a LOT of $$, on the wrong antenna for your setup.

[belboz]

S. DiThomas

I got the same antenna at Rat Shack as a potential stop gap before putting a larger antenna in the attic.

Luckily the Rat Shack $25 antenna is working great! It is highly directional, and won't pick up much on the VHF side of things, but it is getting me all my locals with about 85+ on the HR10 signal strength meter.

Can't wait for the HR20 to get the local option here so I can compare.

[Clint Lamor]

RadioSkack SUPPOSEDLY has this really good $14.95 flat antennae that you need to get the little end converter for. NONE of them in my area have them though. They tried to talk me into a $59.95 one and I laughed :)

[bonscott87]

I would suggest this for those that need something bigger then the small indoor ones you can get at Rat shack.

First, get on AVS and found out what others in your area use and fine out the local dealers.
Second, if you are serious about OTA, get with the local antenna dealer (yes they still exist) or home theater shop and get the correct one for your area. For example in Grand Rapids, MI there is a place that already has a multiantenna setup just for this area to pick up all the locals from all directions, UHF and VHF. Many other areas have dealers that do the same thing.

[brian_h]

I know the OX104 is a staggered roll-out but I am in the Sacramento area and have not received this latest upgrade/OTA enablement. All previous came automatically. Do I need to do something in the Setup area to activate the OX104 upgrade and OTA enablement? Sorry if this has been answered but I couldn't find it.

Since I am in the Sacramento market as well and have not received this update, I was curious when the remaining areas of the Pacific Time Zone will get this update. I got the following information from Direct Tv:

This software update is currently only approved for roll out to the zip codes surrounding Los Angeles (ie zip codes that receive LA DMA channels).

It is not being slated to be rollout to the remaining parts of the West Coast (PST) until at least mid month. The remaining time zones would be after at.

Brian

[petergaryr]

Since I am in the Sacramento market as well and have not received this update, I was curious when the remaining areas of the Pacific Time Zone will get this update. I got the following information from Direct Tv:

This software update is currently only approved for roll out to the zip codes surrounding Los Angeles (ie zip codes that receive LA DMA channels).

It is not being slated to be rollout to the remaining parts of the West Coast (PST) until at least mid month. The remaining time zones would be after at.

Brian

Well, if I take that literally, mid month would be next week, so I'm guessing it should probably hit the east coast by the end of the month?

[A J Ricaud]

Split it close to the HR20.
If your signal is not strong then you may need to install a preamp at the antenna to overcome all the splits. The signal at each tuner will only be 25% of your original signal (50% loss in the splitter, then 50% again in the internal splitters of the Hr10 and the HR20)
If the Hr20 tuner is the same as the one in the H20 then it is MUCH better than the HR10!!

It has been reported that the HR10-250's internal OTA splitter is actually amplified, so there is no loss there and there is actually some gain. That gain may be the reason for exacerbated multipath problems. I recall that bypassing the internal splitter has helped in some cases.

I don't know if the HR20-700's internal splitter is amplified. Sorry if this post is redundant. I didn't look at all 10 pages worth of posts.

[wilbur_the_goose]

Best thing about OTA? It's free TV!

How's the signal strength compared to the HR10-250?

[Jeremy W]

Best thing about OTA? It's free TV!
It's free TV that you can access through the HR20 only as long as you're paying DirecTV.

[Vinny]

It's free TV that you can access through the HR20 only as long as you're paying DirecTV.

Or if you have a HD tuner built into your TV.

[jaxstraww]

No, you have to wait...this is roll out is a subset of the last one, so even West coast is sublimited. Just be patient...it will come...maybe not until Mon or Tue for you, Wed or after for us in the Midwest.

So there is no way to force an upgrade? I remember an upgarde or two ago there were issues with FF and such. Wouldn't it make sense to prmopt users to upgrade to a new patch or be able to roll back a patch if a problem would come up?

[jaxstraww]

Well, if I take that literally, mid month would be next week, so I'm guessing it should probably hit the east coast by the end of the month?

As far as numbers wouldn't the East Coast be the largest and the logical starting point for software updates?

[hasan]

So there is no way to force an upgrade? I remember an upgarde or two ago there were issues with FF and such. Wouldn't it make sense to prmopt users to upgrade to a new patch or be able to roll back a patch if a problem would come up?

Not really. What may or may not make sense is much more complicated than just a user preference...including making support a nightmare. You can force a download once it has been authorized. Example: they release an upgrade for your area at 9 p.m. You can force to upgrade at 9:01...thus getting it "ahead" of when it normally would happen automatically at say 4:00 a.m. (7 hours later).

When they first released the code and did a couple upgrades, they were nationalized and therefore could be forced like crazy. Now that they are being more cautious in their rollouts, you can't do it until it's your "time".

If they release something with real problems their approach seems to be to release an emergency patch right away, not go backwards.

Anywho, none of this is up to us, I'm describing how things work, not how I might want them to work, which to me (given they are not going to change how they do upgrades), is a waste of time. I've told you everything I know...that's all I can do.

I'm waitin gjust like you are...very anxious for OTA-HD recording.

[petergaryr]

As far as numbers wouldn't the East Coast be the largest and the logical starting point for software updates?

They want to release to a small number of people at first to better contol any unforseen problems. They can then judged the number of support calls received. Once that controlled release happens, and if things go well, they can then release to the next phase of people.

[FmrFrtDog]

I agree with your conclusion, however, here in West Michigan, the local channels are already broadcasting HD on the following VHF channels, 2 (CBS), 7 (NBC) and 11 (PBS).

2-1, 7-1, and 11-1 are NOT VHF. The digital paired channels are all in the UHF spectrum for now. With my UHF only antenna (Squareshooter SS-2000) I can pull in 4-1 (and -2 , -3) at 100% signal from a tower 50 miles away, but the VHF channel 4 from the same tower to the same antenna is uselessly weak.

[texasbrit]

texasbrit:

I am going to hop down to RatShack tomorrow and see what I can get unamplified with the following goodie:

$25.00 test case http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family. Then if I can get anything I will consider putting the actual big antenna up with the pre-amp.

Let's see how good the OTA in the HR-20 really is.

Unless you are in a reception "sweet spot" I doubt whether you will get any consistent reception with that antenna on most of the stations, but it will be interesting to see. With a CM4228 or an Antennas Direct 91XG with a CM7777 preamp you have a good chance of getting decent OTA reception on your UHF digitals. Some of your UHF stations are moving back to VHF-hi in 2009 when analog goes away (KCOP is going back to 13, KABC to 7, KCAL to 9 and KTTV to channel 11) and then you may have to add a VHF-hi antenna. Both the antennas I mention are UHF and although they can receive VHF-hi channels their performance on VHF-hi will probably not be good enough to get those stations when they move back to VHF.

[bonscott87]

2-1, 7-1, and 11-1 are NOT VHF. The digital paired channels are all in the UHF spectrum for now. With my UHF only antenna (Squareshooter SS-2000) I can pull in 4-1 (and -2 , -3) at 100% signal from a tower 50 miles away, but the VHF channel 4 from the same tower to the same antenna is uselessly weak.

Wrong, here anyway. 2-1 for example is indeed on VHF channel 2 which of course causes nothing but problems because it's so low. 7 and 11 are also indeed VHF. The other digital channels in the area are up in the UHF range. In this market you need both VHF and UHF to get these channels.

What you are probably seeing is that your digital 4-1 is being mapped down to 4 from it's higher UHF. For example in our market, 2-1 is actually remaped to 3-1 as channel 3 is the main channel.
7-1 gets remapped to 8-1 (8 is the main channel)
and 11-1 gets remapped to 35-1 as 35 is the main channel.
So in the guide I see 3, 7, and 35 but in reality it is digital channel 2, 7, and 11.
In your market it may be say digital channel 16 but gets remapped to 4 because that is the main channel number. That's why a UHF only works for you because the digital channels are actually in UHF, but remapped in the guide to the channel numbers we all know.