Rumors: DIRECTV will replace NDS? [Archive]

marty45714

01-01-07, 08:44 PM

Sixto

01-01-07, 08:53 PM

Seems like the R15 is an NDS box and the HR20 is mostly DirecTV with a little NDS involvement. Maybe it just effects the R15. Maybe a hint at CES. Agree, the reference to "rumors from overseas" is definitely intriguing.

marty45714

01-01-07, 08:58 PM

Seems like the R15 is an NDS box and the HR20 is mostly DirecTV with a little NDS involvement. Maybe it just effects the R15.

Now there you are onto something. I don't have an R15, but I have heard that software updates are nearly non-existent. Again, with News Corp. being in charge until Summer, who knows what will happen?

rcoleman111

01-01-07, 09:05 PM

Demand is high because the HR20 is the only option available for time-shifting the locals in HD, not because people are happy with these problematic devices. The HR20 is a very buggy and unreliable product and is going to generate a ton of complaints for DirecTV at a time when they are facing intense competition from the cable companies. I've had mine for only 3 weeks and I've experienced most of the bugs documented in this forum - missed recordings, lockups, programs disappearing from the to-do list, having to reset the receiver to get features to work properly.

This is all on Murdoch for forcing DirecTV to abandon the rock-solid reliable Tivo with NDS's junk. I look forward to Liberty taking control of DirecTV. Let's hope they hook up with Tivo again. It's hard to believe they would continue to use an inferior product.

bonscott87

01-01-07, 09:17 PM

NDS just supplies the interactive content technology on the HR20. It has nothing to do with replacing Tivo and NDS *isn't* the DVR portion of the box. That article doesn't have it's facts straight.

rcoleman111

01-01-07, 09:21 PM

NDS just supplies the interactive content technology on the HR20. It has nothing to do with replacing Tivo and NDS *isn't* the DVR portion of the box. That article doesn't have it's facts straight.

How do you know that?

bonscott87

01-01-07, 09:27 PM

How do you know that?

It's widely known, as someone posted already above. Full history behind these boxes can be found on AVS or DBSForums. Technical nitty gritty. Anyway, the article itself says that NDS was brought in for interactive and PPV services. That has nothing to do with Tivo which is DVR software. As posted above the R15 had NDS work on the DVR code while the HR20 did not.

In either case NDS being canned wouldn't effect DirecTV at all really other then having to take over the interactive coding themselves and perhaps the R15 as well (assuming NDS is actually supporting the code for it still). That could be bad or good depending on how you look at it.

I'd say the most likely effect is that the new DirecTV will just have to pay a higher price for NDS consulting now that dad (Rupe) won't be around anymore to make them play nice with each other and give each other good deals.

wingrider01

01-02-07, 07:13 AM

brewer4

01-02-07, 07:34 AM

Sorry, the HR10 I have is more problem prone and buggy the what I have read about on the HR20. So at least in my opinion this statement does not hold water. I truely wish they would deliver a HR20 instead of the refurbished HR10 that should be here in 2 days.

What??!!! I've had an HR10 from Day 1 and 2 current in the house. It is a very solid and reliable DVR. There's been some issues, namely HDMI in the beginning and some audio drop outs now but overall, I would say one the best and most reliable appliance I have ever owned. I like the HR20's but the HR10 HD Tivo is by far not buggier then the HR20 even when you compare the initial release periods.

Herdfan

01-02-07, 07:53 AM

What??!!! I've had an HR10 from Day 1 and 2 current in the house. It is a very solid and reliable DVR. ....... but the HR10 HD Tivo is by far not buggier then the HR20 even when you compare the initial release periods.
Ditto.

I got one in week 2 of the launch back in late April 2004 and it has been a workhorse ever since. Only missed one recording and that was due to bad guide data.

Of course, it is unplugged from the phone line as I don't want 6.3x.

jheda

01-02-07, 08:03 AM

I actually appreciate more the GUI of the hr20 over my Directtivo; it just took a few weeks of acclamation. The advantages are documented all over this site. Yes the hr20 has obvious issues but it is improving and if they incorporate DLB's i would never mention tivo again.... my opinion of course...

mikewolf13

01-02-07, 08:14 AM

Something to keep in mind: Liberty won't take charge of the company until Summer. This will give DirecTV six more months of sales on a DVR that they can't keep on the shelf right now because of demand. I just don't see a switch happening. His citing of sources as "Rumors from overseas..." is definitely entertaining.

Also one has to wonder what impact returns has had on the supply.

While we know the bugs are software related...many CSRs send out replacement boxes like they grow on trees.

wingrider01

01-02-07, 08:16 AM

What??!!! I've had an HR10 from Day 1 and 2 current in the house. It is a very solid and reliable DVR. There's been some issues, namely HDMI in the beginning and some audio drop outs now but overall, I would say one the best and most reliable appliance I have ever owned. I like the HR20's but the HR10 HD Tivo is by far not buggier then the HR20 even when you compare the initial release periods.

Read the TYivo boards, you will see all the issues that are ocurring with the infamous 6.3A(B) software drops. This one being shipped to me is the 5th one in two years. Before you say anything, the unit is installed in a custom cabinent with more then sufficient air flow, it is attached to a APC S10BLK 1KVA line conditioner with battery backup.

Reported issues are

Hard Locks requiring a power off restart
Audio dropouts on channels
Short recordings
Missed season pass recordings
Missed normal recordings

Have expierenced all of these issue even with 6.3B of the software. Unfortunately D* is shipping a refurbished HR10 to me again, as I mentioned this is number 5. Plenty of people are expierencing these same issue in one form or the other, read the board over there.

eengert

01-02-07, 09:13 AM

Read the TYivo boards, you will see all the issues that are ocurring with the infamous 6.3A(B) software drops. This one being shipped to me is the 5th one in two years. Before you say anything, the unit is installed in a custom cabinent with more then sufficient air flow, it is attached to a APC S10BLK 1KVA line conditioner with battery backup.

Reported issues are

Hard Locks requiring a power off restart
Audio dropouts on channels
Short recordings
Missed season pass recordings
Missed normal recordings

Have expierenced all of these issue even with 6.3B of the software. Unfortunately D* is shipping a refurbished HR10 to me again, as I mentioned this is number 5. Plenty of people are expierencing these same issue in one form or the other, read the board over there.

Agreed. On v3.1.5, the Tivo was rock solid (though extremely slow and no pic-in-guide/menu). Now that I'm stuck on 6.3a, it's a crapshoot as to what it will do. And apparently 6.3b didn't fix all the issues because they've pulled it from the download stream. With 6.3a, my HR10 now has rebooted twice in two weeks and missed several recordings. In the past year on v3.1.5 I have never had a missed recording or reboot. This forced me to finally switch the HR20 to be my primary receiver and the HR10 is just a backup now (though I'm not sure how reliable it is even as a backup now). Please don't tell me how I can pull the HDD and hack it to revert back to v3.1.5. You shouldn't have to do that and I choose not to get into that hassle. Since there is no supported or easy way to rollback, the HR10 is now significantly buggier than my HR20, which to my knowledge has never missed a recording in the 3 months I've had it.

w6fxj

01-02-07, 09:36 AM

Interesting article: http://biz.yahoo.com/seekingalpha/061231/23195_id.html?.v=1

"Rumors from overseas claim that DIRECTV will replace NDS as its supplier of interactive television and Pay-TV with another company, since News Corp forced DIRECTV to bring in NDS in place of TiVo Inc."

Should be an interesting year ...
Everyone should keep in mind that NDS is DirecTV's provider of the encryption system used for at least 10 years. To my knowledge they do NOT make DirecTV receivers or DVR's. NDS was started by Rupert Murdoch back in the days before DirecTV even went on the air. (The UK's Sky Channel in the 1980's Ibelieve).

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 09:40 AM

And apparently 6.3b didn't fix all the issues because they've pulled it from the download stream.
My units have been on 6.3b a couple of weeks now and I haven't run into any audio dropouts (which was the only problem I saw with 6.3a) since the upgrade.

Earl, Can you verify with your folks why 6.3b isn't in the stream? Have they found problems or are there just too many updates being rolled out at this point?

eengert

01-02-07, 10:25 AM

My units have been on 6.3b a couple of weeks now and I haven't run into any audio dropouts (which was the only problem I saw with 6.3a) since the upgrade.

I wish I, and others, were as fortunate as you have been. It certainly is quite a role reversal for me to be promoting the HR20 due to the instability of the Tivo!

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 11:07 AM

wingrider01

01-02-07, 11:23 AM

I never did have the reboot and partial recording problems other reported under 6.3a. But then again before I upgraded to 6.3a I did a C&DE on both units. I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

So did I much to my dismay as to the affect on my home life from my wife and kids. they lost all their recorded programs, christmas specials, old episode of Dora the Explorer, Wow, Wow, Wasby, Handy Mannie to name a few. Ironicly 20 minutes after a full C&DE finished, the HR10 did a hard lockup and had to have th power plug pulled to reboot.

wingrider01

01-02-07, 11:27 AM

Agreed. On v3.1.5, the Tivo was rock solid (though extremely slow and no pic-in-guide/menu). Now that I'm stuck on 6.3a, it's a crapshoot as to what it will do. And apparently 6.3b didn't fix all the issues because they've pulled it from the download stream. With 6.3a, my HR10 now has rebooted twice in two weeks and missed several recordings. In the past year on v3.1.5 I have never had a missed recording or reboot. This forced me to finally switch the HR20 to be my primary receiver and the HR10 is just a backup now (though I'm not sure how reliable it is even as a backup now). Please don't tell me how I can pull the HDD and hack it to revert back to v3.1.5. You shouldn't have to do that and I choose not to get into that hassle. Since there is no supported or easy way to rollback, the HR10 is now significantly buggier than my HR20, which to my knowledge has never missed a recording in the 3 months I've had it.

I agree, I have no desire to hack the unit, it is supposed to function out of the box. If I wish to hack something I will order parts from newegg.com to build a new computer for gaming. If this next unit starts expierencing the same issues I am going cancel the HD package and go back to the spare SD recorder that I have. Also have no desire to disconnect the phone line from the new unit, so that is not an option either

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 11:51 AM

So did I much to my dismay as to the affect on my home life from my wife and kids. they lost all their recorded programs, christmas specials, old episode of Dora the Explorer, Wow, Wow, Wasby, Handy Mannie to name a few. Ironicly 20 minutes after a full C&DE finished, the HR10 did a hard lockup and had to have th power plug pulled to reboot.
Is that on 6.3a or 6.3b?

mikewolf13

01-02-07, 11:56 AM

Is that on 6.3a or 6.3b?

I know we are off-the ororiginal topic, but given the inconsistency with R15 and HR20 errors and now 6.3 on the HR10..could the biggest issue be corruption of software in the transmission/download.

I am just guessing here.

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 12:09 PM

I would hope that at a minimum there's some type of checksum process in place to detect a corrupt data stream. If not that could explain alot.

Clint Lamor

01-02-07, 12:15 PM

I didn't think the DTivos got their updates via the stream like the other ones do?

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 12:22 PM

It seems that 6.3, 6.3a and 6.3b did come via the stream for a short time but were then switched to phone. I think it's easier to manage with the Tivos as the upgrade can be in the stream for just a few days, every unit attached gets it and stores it on the HD. Then the daily calls over the next month or so authorize the upgrade for each unit. But the R15/HR20 need to have the stream coming down every night for which new units are authorized. At least that's my guess.

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 12:23 PM

I would hope that at a minimum there's some type of checksum process in place to detect a corrupt data stream. If not that could explain alot.

I do know that the R15 and HR20 have a checksum process to make sure everything transfered properly before trying to install.

As for the HR10... It does get the files via the SAT at first...
And I would think they have some sort of validation process as well.

rcoleman111

01-02-07, 01:06 PM

It's widely known, as someone posted already above. Full history behind these boxes can be found on AVS or DBSForums. Technical nitty gritty. Anyway, the article itself says that NDS was brought in for interactive and PPV services. That has nothing to do with Tivo which is DVR software. As posted above the R15 had NDS work on the DVR code while the HR20 did not.

In either case NDS being canned wouldn't effect DirecTV at all really other then having to take over the interactive coding themselves and perhaps the R15 as well (assuming NDS is actually supporting the code for it still). That could be bad or good depending on how you look at it.

I'd say the most likely effect is that the new DirecTV will just have to pay a higher price for NDS consulting now that dad (Rupe) won't be around anymore to make them play nice with each other and give each other good deals.

According to PVRWire, the HR20 DVR is made by NDS:

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/12/24/newscorp-gets-out-of-directv-good-news-for-tivo/

Do you have anything other than anonymous comments on message boards to refute that?

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 01:18 PM

According to PVRWire, the HR20 DVR is made by NDS:

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/12/24/newscorp-gets-out-of-directv-good-news-for-tivo/

Do you have anything other than anonymous comments on message boards to refute that?

The HR20 is entirely in DirecTV's control, and developed by their employees.

The "blogs" and other publications have since day one refered to the non-TiVo DVRs, as the NDS DVRs... but that is not the case for the HR20.

As for the PVRBlog...do they have documented proof of the contrary?
They are after all, a "Blog", just like we are a forum....

Bay CIty

01-02-07, 01:26 PM

The HR20 is entirely in DirecTV's control, and developed by their employees.

It`s about time that Directv and their employess get their act together and furnish each and everyone of its customers with a reliably built and working box.

If they are unable to to this than its time to bring Tivo back into the picture and turn the manufacturing over to another company

Tom Robertson

01-02-07, 01:28 PM

As for the PVRBlog...
They are after all, a "Blog", just like we are a forum....

Earl,

Because of you, we are not just a forum (I know, I slightly twisted your meaning).
Because of all the people who post here, we are not just a forum.
Because of all that, I thank... US.

Tom

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 01:33 PM

It`s about time that Directv and their employess get their act together and furnish each and everyone of its customers with a reliably built and working box.

If they are unable to to this than its time to bring Tivo back into the picture and turn the manufacturing over to another company

Do you really think they are NOT trying to provide "us" a working box.

And IF they did switch back to TiVo platform... how long do you think it would take to have a DirecTV/MPEG-4 compatible unit available... fully tested, and ready to go......

hdtvfan0001

01-02-07, 01:46 PM

Do you really think they are NOT trying to provide "us" a working box.
Some folks here seem to try and convince others that this is the case. Just using common sense, you would think D*TV can only benefit with happy customers and a solid HR20 box. There's no plus for them in anything less. :rolleyes:

Herdfan

01-02-07, 01:47 PM

And IF they did switch back to TiVo platform... how long do you think it would take to have a DirecTV/MPEG-4 compatible unit available... fully tested, and ready to go......
If TiVo, Inc. was not run by the chips in the careerbuilder.com ads, then they would have had one YESTERDAY! Just sitting there waiting ready to go. And just for kicks, they would send one to Chase every month or so loaded with recorded shows.:lol:

Herdfan

01-02-07, 02:01 PM

Some folks here seem to try and convince others that this is the case. Just using common sense, you would think D*TV can only benefit with happy customers and a solid HR20 box. There's no plus for them in anything less. :rolleyes:
While I agree with this assessment at face value, do we know that D* has invested everything needed to make this box what it needs to be?

Have enough resources been allocated to development, or just enough resources to get by.

While I try to not be cynical, the continued issues with the R15 just scream that there is a problem somewhere.

jal

01-02-07, 02:04 PM

If Liberty decides to bring back TIVO, can the TIVO software be downloaded into the HR20 or the R15?

I presently have an HR10, an HR20, an R10 (tivo SD), and an R15. My preference is with the R10 and HR10. They are more reliable, and quieter, in my opinion. I also enjoy the suggestions feature of the TIVO.

Blitz68

01-02-07, 02:05 PM

wingrider01

01-02-07, 02:05 PM

Is that on 6.3a or 6.3b?

both

hdtvfan0001

01-02-07, 02:06 PM

If Liberty decides to bring back TIVO, can the TIVO software be downloaded into the HR20 or the R15?
For a number of reasons (contractual and otherwise)...that's not gonna happen.
Have enough resources been allocated to development, or just enough resources to get by.
We ask that question at our company almost every week. I'll let you know when we figure out the right answer, or at least how to figure out the right answer. Your question is one that 3 of my previous employers over the past 22 years also couldn't answer. :eek2:

Tom Robertson

01-02-07, 02:09 PM

While I agree with this assessment at face value, do we know that D* has invested everything needed to make this box what it needs to be?

Have enough resources been allocated to development, or just enough resources to get by.

While I try to not be cynical, the continued issues with the R15 just scream that there is a problem somewhere.

Herdfan,

Expanding on your thinking here, has D* dedicated enough resources to problem analysis, diagnosis, QA testing, as well as development. Any of these areas, starved for resources will become the bottleneck for how fast the problems will be truly solved.

Now, with that said, another point of view to remember. Too many resources, especially at the development level, leads to slower solutions rather than faster.

And, the R15 history, from what I read here, is worrisome...

But all that will be fixed at CES :D
Tom

Alan Gordon

01-02-07, 02:24 PM

Interesting article: http://biz.yahoo.com/seekingalpha/061231/23195_id.html?.v=1

"Rumors from overseas claim that DIRECTV will replace NDS as its supplier of interactive television and Pay-TV with another company, since News Corp forced DIRECTV to bring in NDS in place of TiVo Inc."

While the thought of a MPEG4 enabled TiVo makes me want to squeal with delight, other than the mention of TiVo above, there is no mention of DirecTV dropping NDS as set-top box supplier.

Since NDS also provides the technology for DirecTV's interactive applications as well as their security, the interactive television comment above might actually be what's going on as Malone owns OpenTV. What the "Pay-TV" means, I don't know...

~Alan

rcoleman111

01-02-07, 02:31 PM

The HR20 is entirely in DirecTV's control, and developed by their employees.

The "blogs" and other publications have since day one refered to the non-TiVo DVRs, as the NDS DVRs... but that is not the case for the HR20.

As for the PVRBlog...do they have documented proof of the contrary?
They are after all, a "Blog", just like we are a forum....

The source I quoted is PVRWire, not PVRBlog. Whether it's accurate is another matter, but if you check the NDS website, it seems pretty clear that they make DVRs.

Can you offer any proof (other than bonscott87's claim that it is "widely known") that the HR20 was developed by DirecTV employees and not NDS?

Herdfan

01-02-07, 02:34 PM

We ask that question at our company almost every week. I'll let you know when we figure out the right answer, or at least how to figure out the right answer. Your question is one that 3 of my previous employers over the past 22 years also couldn't answer. :eek2:

The problem is that the answer IS known. However, it is only known by the actuaries who determine how many customers will be lost for every $1M not spent on R&D.

Based on that answer, an R&D budget is developed knowing full well that customers will be lost, but the cost of the lost customers will be lower than the cost to develop the product correctly.

It is a numbers game and the customers who use the box and the engineers who develop it are the ones who get the short end. All this is happening while marketing is making wild claims as to capabilities and finance is screaming about delays to the box they failed to fully fund.:eek:

rcoleman111

01-02-07, 02:38 PM

LOL... Demand is higher for the HR20 because it is better.

There are PLENTY of HR10-250's out there if you want them bad enough. Hell I have 2 that I would gladly change for an HR20-700.

It can be considered "better" in the sense that it offers functionality - HD locals - that are not available with other DirecTV DVR models. That doesn't change the fact that the HR20 is a very buggy DVR.

Herdfan

01-02-07, 02:39 PM

but if you check the NDS website, it seems pretty clear that they make DVRs.

Can you offer any proof (other than bonscott87's claim that it is "widely known") that the HR20 was developed by DirecTV employees and not NDS?
NDS does make DVR's. Specifically the SKY+ DVR's used in the UK. The D* R15 is based on the NDS code, but has 3 manufacturers.

The HR20 was developed by D* using a Ucentric code base. Do a seach for Ucentric and you will see. Ucentric was developing the V* DVR before V* went bust, in part because they had no DVR. Ucentric was subsequently purchased by Motorola.

NDS is owned by NewsCorp who also controls D*.

And bonscott has a pretty good track record around here.;) And Earl gets to talk to the actual developers of the box, so he sort of knows what he is talking about as well.

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 02:40 PM

The source I quoted is PVRWire, not PVRBlog. Whether it's accurate is another matter, but if you check the NDS website, it seems pretty clear that they make DVRs.

Can you offer any proof (other than bonscott87's claim that it is "widely known") that the HR20 was developed by DirecTV employees and not NDS?

My apologizes for the difference between the PVRBlog and PVRWire...

Can you post a link to the NDS website, where they state that they have built the HR20?

"Proof"... I am not basing my comments on bonscott87's claim.
I am basing it off the conversations I have had with the folks AT DirecTV.. .and I am not talking CSR level.

jonaswan2

01-02-07, 02:49 PM

The source I quoted is PVRWire, not PVRBlog. Whether it's accurate is another matter, but if you check the NDS website, it seems pretty clear that they make DVRs.

Can you offer any proof (other than bonscott87's claim that it is "widely known") that the HR20 was developed by DirecTV employees and not NDS?

I've learned the hard way, to just not fight it. Don't fight it, just don't do it. :D :lol: The only part of NDS in the current DVRs are VideoGuard and MediaHighway Middleware software.

hdtvfan0001

01-02-07, 03:05 PM

The problem is that the answer IS known.
I respectfully disagree. It's a moving target, which is why it is regularly evaluated.

It is also based on a fair amount of subjectivity, with terms used such as the definitions of "acceptable", "appropriate". and "client-driven value". You may be able to quantify parts of an evaluation, but not all of it. Point is, the original premise that D*TV did or did not have enough resources is predicated on the assumption that things are static - both the needs and the resources, neither of which is true.

P.S.....Pace builds the boxes....D*TV designs and maintains the firmware. NDS provides the identity management authorization software.

rcoleman111

01-02-07, 03:22 PM

Can you post a link to the NDS website, where they state that they have built the HR20?

"Proof"... I am not basing my comments on bonscott87's claim.
I am basing it off the conversations I have had with the folks AT DirecTV.. .and I am not talking CSR level.

I never stated that NDS claimed to have "built the HR20" - only that they make DVRs. I'm just trying to determine where the information is coming from and whether it is accurate.

You may very well be correct, but it seems strange that DirecTV would have their own employees develop a DVR when News Corp. owns 80% of NDS, which makes DVRs and which is providing at least some of the technology for the HR20. If DirecTV has employees capable of designing DVRs, then why were they using Tivo?

jonaswan2

01-02-07, 03:34 PM

I never stated that NDS claimed to have "built the HR20" - only that they make DVRs. I'm just trying to determine where the information is coming from and whether it is accurate.

You may very well be correct, but it seems strange that DirecTV would have their own employees develop a DVR when News Corp. owns 80% of NDS, which makes DVRs and which is providing at least some of the technology for the HR20. If DirecTV has employees capable of designing DVRs, then why were they using Tivo?

NDS does NOT have a good track record with DVRs (the Sky+ Box sucks, the Foxtel iQ box sucks, and the DirecTV+ box (the R15) sucks too!) so I can see why DirecTV would move the development in house.

bonscott87

01-02-07, 03:39 PM

My "claim" is just all the posts and technical discussions from the past couple years on AVS and DBSForums that I have read. Guys like Dan Collins at DBSForums and Dan the HD moderator at AVS really know what's going on. Sure I could be remembering wrong.

I'm also pretty sure that at one of the past couple CES's that DirecTV announced the HR20 had Ucentric code.

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 03:51 PM

I never stated that NDS claimed to have "built the HR20" - only that they make DVRs. I'm just trying to determine where the information is coming from and whether it is accurate.

You may very well be correct, but it seems strange that DirecTV would have their own employees develop a DVR when News Corp. owns 80% of NDS, which makes DVRs and which is providing at least some of the technology for the HR20. If DirecTV has employees capable of designing DVRs, then why were they using Tivo?

IIRC, the DirecTV/TiVo relationship started before News Corp had controlling intrest in DirecTV.

At the time, NDS was just the security technology provider to DirecTV.

rcoleman111

01-02-07, 04:02 PM

bonscott87

01-02-07, 04:12 PM

IIRC, the DirecTV/TiVo relationship started before News Corp had controlling intrest in DirecTV.

At the time, NDS was just the security technology provider to DirecTV.

That is true. The first DirecTivo was in early 2001, perhaps a bit earlier. Their relationship had to start much earlier then that, probably near the beginnings of Tivo.

News Corp bought DirecTV in 2003/04 timeframe.

bonscott87

01-02-07, 04:13 PM

hdtvfan0001

01-02-07, 04:15 PM

Well, if DirecTV does have its own personnel developing DVRs, they need to turn it back over to Tivo.
Not based on my countless reboots and hangups for years on the H10-250 that I booted in favor of my problem-free HR20. :nono2:

Inkeyes

01-02-07, 04:25 PM

The HR20 is entirely in DirecTV's control, and developed by their employees.

So Earl, you are saying the hardware and software for the HR20 was developed totally in house? I am quite sure I read that there was a sub-contractor involved with the software development. Also Earl, could you please describe the folks that are developing the software. Are they Americans? Are they doing this in the US or overseas? Did Direct TV just go to Mexico and build a factory, or did they buy an existing company.

HarleyD

01-02-07, 04:46 PM

While I agree with this assessment at face value, do we know that D* has invested everything needed to make this box what it needs to be?

Have enough resources been allocated to development, or just enough resources to get by.

There is the consideration that if you continue to throw resources (read -> Bodies) at a task you reach a point of diminishing return.

That is to say, you can't complete a 6000 hour project by hiring 6000 developers for an hour. There has to be coordination and integration across the individual persons/teams. Eventually, too many cooks spoil the programming.

I just think there was too much left undone when the HR20 hit the street and it will take time to get it all ironed out.

And I don't think D* anticipated the backlash from eliminating DLBs. I would be surprised if they didn't reallocate some resources to that if it was do-able with just a programming change and keeping the HR20 hardware.

Once upon a time Earl hinted that the D* powers that be had shared some of their reasons for eliminating DLBs and that he even understood some of them...but he never shared them with us.

I hope D* eventually makes the HR20 into a product I would own. At this point that is not the case.

oldguy1

01-02-07, 05:06 PM

Well, if DirecTV does have its own personnel developing DVRs, they need to turn it back over to Tivo. My two HDVR2 units have never missed a recording in more than 3 years. In the 2 weeks I've had the HR20, I've encountered just about every problem reported in this forum. It's better than not having a DVR at all, but that isn't saying much.

People that read my recent comments about the HR10-250 6.3a software release may find it strange when I say I love my HR20. So much so I ordered a second one.

I am now ironing out my non-VIIV wireless network hookup and have found a way to get out of some problems with lost Music & Photos connections. I will post my notes on my wireless hookup soon.

Meantime, my HR20 has a BEAUTIFUL picture.

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 05:14 PM

So Earl, you are saying the hardware and software for the HR20 was developed totally in house? I am quite sure I read that there was a sub-contractor involved with the software development. Also Earl, could you please describe the folks that are developing the software. Are they Americans? Are they doing this in the US or overseas? Did Direct TV just go to Mexico and build a factory, or did they buy an existing company.

I am not sure whom DirecTV worked with to "design" the HR20..
However, part of it was with PACE, who ultimately was the company that was contracted to "build" the units.

As for where they are built, I do know they have multiple production lines now.

As for the "sub-contract" writing the software. No, as far as I am aware of... all primary development for the HR20 is done by people that work for DirecTV.

The development team is based in LA.
As for if they are American..... Why would that make any type of difference?

HarleyD

01-02-07, 05:39 PM

Why would that make any type of difference?

yah iksaI BaI Antr nahIM krta hO

Оно не вносит изменения никакой

No diferencia ningún

Het maakt geen verschil

Il ne fait aucune différence

Δεν κάνει οποιαδήποτε διαφορά

Não faz nenhuma diferença

bidger

01-02-07, 05:39 PM

My two HDVR2 units have never missed a recording in more than 3 years.

You might want to double check because I found that my DVR-80 wasn't recording a SP program earlier today. I had to change to that channel and tell it to record. I checked the To Do list and found several more SP weekday recordings missing. Again, I have to tell the unit to record these shows. Deleting and then restoring the SPs didn't remedy it, nor did a restart. I will see if the 2AM Guide download remedies the situation, but so much for the "set it and forget it", infallible TiVo.

Tom Robertson

01-02-07, 05:42 PM

Harlyd,

Nice comment--I think :)

Tom

Inkeyes

01-02-07, 05:55 PM

As for if they are American..... Why would that make any type of difference?

Well, to tell you the truth, I just can't understand why they can't fix this thing; UNLESS they don't speak or understand english very well. I'm sure I don't have to explain how business likes to chase cheap labor. I can't get over the picture in my head of an extra long mobile home sitting somewhere in India, with Direct TV dishes bristling from the roof. Inside, dozens of Indians sitting at PC's trying to program the HR20, being constantly interrupted with customer support calls for Symantec or Microsoft. Tell me I'm wrong Earl, are these good old American Knuckleheads, or are they "foreign" Knuckleheads?

HarleyD

01-02-07, 06:00 PM

Actually, while language is occasionally a barrier in accurately communicating specs my firsthand experience has been that contract programmers from India and Pakistan do some of the finest coding I have ever dealt with.

Earl Bonovich

01-02-07, 06:01 PM

Well, to tell you the truth, I just can't understand why they can't fix this thing; UNLESS they don't speak or understand english very well. I'm sure I don't have to explain how business likes to chase cheap labor. I can't get over the picture in my head of an extra long mobile home sitting somewhere in India, with Direct TV dishes bristling from the roof. Inside, dozens of Indians sitting at PC's trying to program the HR20, being constantly interrupted with customer support calls for Symantec or Microsoft. Tell me I'm wrong Earl, are these good old American Knuckleheads, or are they "foreign" Knuckleheads?

Are you a software developer?
Let alone a software developer for an integrated device such as this?

I am a software developer, and have an appriciate on how difficult it could be. Heck... I have spent weeks trying to eliminate the smallests of bugs, that when the answer was found... you just hit your head on the desk and realize you wasted how much time to find "that"...

I don't konw the national orgin of the development team for the HR20... and frankly... I don't care to know. I have worked with plenty of "knuckleheads" from around the world... as well as some indviduals that have I learned a lot from.

Tom Robertson

01-02-07, 06:16 PM

Well, Earl,

I was a software developer, a manager of software developers, and a director of managers of software developers (and QA, Operations, etc.) and I can tell you that you are absolutely right. :) :)

I'll also add that I've been a developer for operating systems and embedded devices (tho that was only in college) and can firmly state that it don't get harder than networked, asynchronous devices with embedded programming. With all over types of programming there is ubiquitous access to diagnosis and debugging tools, usually scads to choose from. In embedded programming, there are only a few tools that don't influence that which you are trying desperately to debug, especially on a custom hardware platform. And the per developer costs for that level of debugging is very high...

So, developers have to program very smart, very careful, and very conscientious rather than rely on "code fast, debug later". (Some programmers are very good at that technique, I'm not intending to knock that skill, just its application to embedded programming.)

I would also like to thank the academy....sorry, I mean to say that I've worked in an extremely diverse shop with programmers who've hailed from around the globe. The only thing I can generalize is that good programmers are good and have wisdom and experience. Bad programmers often do not. Good interviewing and subsequent management is key. (And hard to find...)

Happy New Year,
Tom

Herdfan

01-02-07, 06:28 PM

IYou may very well be correct, but it seems strange that DirecTV would have their own employees develop a DVR when News Corp. owns 80% of NDS, which makes DVRs
If it is in fact Ucentric code or a derivative inside the HR20, it is quite likely that it had its roots as part of the HMC (Still vaporware but that's another story) which D* first displayed at CES in 2005. It is quite possible that the D*/Ucentric relationship predated NewsCorp's takeover of D* in late 2003/early 2004.

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 09:31 PM

Not based on my countless reboots and hangups for years on the H10-250 that I booted in favor of my problem-free HR20. :nono2:
I guess I can negate your countless reboots as I've never have problems with my DTivos. Two HR10s and the only problem I've run into was the audio dropouts on the 6.3a upgrade that was fixed for me on the 6.3b upgrade.

Wolffpack

01-02-07, 09:36 PM

You might want to double check because I found that my DVR-80 wasn't recording a SP program earlier today. I had to change to that channel and tell it to record. I checked the To Do list and found several more SP weekday recordings missing. Again, I have to tell the unit to record these shows. Deleting and then restoring the SPs didn't remedy it, nor did a restart. I will see if the 2AM Guide download remedies the situation, but so much for the "set it and forget it", infallible TiVo.
Again, is this a Tivo forum? No. Why does everyone need to bring up their own Tivo problems to defend the HR20? I Just do not understand this logic? Your HR20 isn't going to work better by telling everyone about your Tivo problems.

Clint Lamor

01-02-07, 11:42 PM

Again, is this a Tivo forum? No. Why does everyone need to bring up their own Tivo problems to defend the HR20? I Just do not understand this logic? Your HR20 isn't going to work better by telling everyone about your Tivo problems.

I think it's the same reason that people feel the need to mention they have no problems with their Tivo. ;)

Neither product is perfect both have issues and always will some will have these issues and some won't. Tivo makes a darn good product and the DTV product is improving.

hdtvfan0001

01-03-07, 06:56 AM

I guess I can negate your countless reboots as I've never have problems with my DTivos.
So I guess the reverse holds true as well.

I had tons of lockups and reboots with the Tivo H10-250 box, and have made a thankful migration away. The tivocommunity site is saturated with similar negative experiences going back way before V6.3 came out.

But I'll take you at your word that your Tivo box ws fine. Unlike some other folks, I have no reason, agenda, or other motivation to doubt anyone when they have a positive experience with their DVR.

wingrider01

01-03-07, 10:02 AM

Again, is this a Tivo forum? No. Why does everyone need to bring up their own Tivo problems to defend the HR20? I Just do not understand this logic? Your HR20 isn't going to work better by telling everyone about your Tivo problems.

By the same token why do people malign the HR20 over in the TIVO forums?

Maybe it is just to document the fact that the HR10-250 w/Tivo is not the perfect peice of gear and software that people make it out to be, just like the one's that bring up the HR-20 faults.

Wolffpack

01-03-07, 10:16 AM

By the same token why do people malign the HR20 over in the TIVO forums?
I don't believe that's called for either. But if you do notice, no one is maligning the HR20 in the Tivo forum on DBSTalk.

wmschultz

01-03-07, 10:21 AM

:backtotop

This thread has been hijacked.

bidger

01-03-07, 10:47 AM

Again, is this a Tivo forum? No. Why does everyone need to bring up their own Tivo problems to defend the HR20? I Just do not understand this logic? Your HR20 isn't going to work better by telling everyone about your Tivo problems.

It's a satellite forum and the unit I mentioned is a DirecTV with TiVo receiver and the reason I brought it up was that despite the popular notion that TiVos are flawless, they do from time-to-time have issues. It was restored by the 2AM download, but if I hadn't intervened all my scheduled recordings for yesterday wouldn't have recorded instead of one lost and one partial. And the shows were in the Guide yesterday, but for whatever reason they weren't picked up by the SP.

I didn't bring up the HR20 in my post, so why did you feel the need to bring it up?

Clint Lamor

01-03-07, 11:48 AM

OK lets get this back on track here.

BillyT2002

01-03-07, 12:05 PM

Are you a software developer?
I am a software developer, and have an appriciate on how difficult it could be. Heck... I have spent weeks trying to eliminate the smallests of bugs, that when the answer was found... you just hit your head on the desk and realize you wasted how much time to find "that"...

Earl, let me guess, you write software in C++ or C# and you've been using '=' in comparisons again when you really mean '==', right? I hate it when that happens. ;)

Earl Bonovich

01-03-07, 12:08 PM

Earl, let me guess, you write software in C++ or C# and you've been using '=' in comparisons again when you really mean '==', right? I hate it when that happens. ;)

Drives me freaking batty.

Araxen

01-03-07, 04:46 PM

I'm looking to get a HDTV this year and I've been very learing of having to replace my DirecTivo for the Directv brand ones as I haven't had any problems with my Tivo. It's been rock solid since I've gotten it and all I have read are the problems with the Directv brand ones with missing shows and such.

I know if Dish went to Tivo I'd switch over in a heartbeat and I've been with Directv at least 8+ years now. All I want from a dvr is for it to be easy to use, not miss any of the shows I want, and be able to fast forward through commercials. That's all I care about it. It amazes me how all these companies are putting out horrible dvr's.