HR10-250 and letterbox problems

[Vrael]

Hopefully I'm posting in the right place. A friend of mine told me about this site and that I might be able to get some help here.

My problem is with the HD-DVR (HR10-250) and displaying a letterbox broadcasted channel in full letterbox on my Samsung HL-R5677W HD widescreen.

If I view an HD channel, the TV displays the channel in full letterbox (no bars) HD. If I try to view a channel (non-HD channel) like Sci-Fi or anything broadcasting in letterbox, I get the bars top, bottom, left and right. This is all in 720p. My TV is capable of 480p, 480i, 720p and 1080i. I have to perform the 3 steps below to view a letterbox without the sidebars.

1. Switch the TV to 480p (My TV will not switch to Panaramic, Zoom1 or Zoom2 in anything other than 480p)
2. Switch the TV from 16:9 to Zoom1.
3. Switch the HD-DRV Full/Panel setting to Full.

Only then can I see a non-HD channel in full letterbox. But, if I bring up the guide, the top and bottom of the guide are cut off due to the Zoom1 or Zoom2 setting on the TV.

This has been driving me nuts. Somebody at Circuit City (where I bought all this equipment) told me I had to scale back to the straight DVR that allows viewing of HD, but not recording of HD. This is just stupid to say the least. My TV is obviously capable of displaying HD in full widescreen letterbox with no bars at all, so why doesn't it display a non-HD, that is broadcast in letterbox, in full widescreen/letterbox. I don't care if the top and bottom black bars show, like some of my widescreen DVDs are. I just want it to go full width of my TV, just like it does with HD channels. I can't tell you how ridiculous it is watching a letterbox movie shrunk down to this miniature letterbox view inside my 56" widescreen. It is as if my 56" now becomes a 30" with a really big 10" black border around the entire picture. :mad:

My HD-DVR is hooked up via composite video cables directly. I can view DVDs all day in full letterbox viewing pleasure. My DVD is hookedup view the HDMI cable straight to the TV HDMI input. I've tried the HDMI connector on the HD-DVR and this did not help the letterbox issue. I still had to switch all the settings to stretch the picture out.

Anything you guys can help me with is really appreciated. Do I have to swap out my HD-DVR to something else? Is the guy right at Circuit City telling me I have to downgrade?

Thanks!

[jdspencer]

If the HR10 is outputting a 1080i signal, then it is the TV that is preventing you from filling the screen as you have discovered. I believe that this would be the case for any HD receiver you get. I have to do what you described with my Mits HDTV.

[captain_video]

Unfortunately, this is something we all have to live with when viewing non-HD channels on a HDTV. Standard definition channels only broadcast in 480i using a 4:3 aspect ratio. If the program is letterboxed, then you will essentially get a letterbox within a letterbox. The only solution is to zoom the display to allow the image to fill the entire screen without the black bars. I'm not sure why you have to make any changes to the DVR settings, however. I believe I have mine set to Full all the time and the only setting I have to change when viewing a SD letterbox programs is the TV aspect ratio.

[mrb]

Unfortunately, this is something we all have to live with when viewing non-HD channels on a HDTV. Standard definition channels only broadcast in 480i using a 4:3 aspect ratio. If the program is letterboxed, then you will essentially get a letterbox within a letterbox. The only solution is to zoom the display to allow the image to fill the entire screen without the black bars. I'm not sure why you have to make any changes to the DVR settings, however. I believe I have mine set to Full all the time and the only setting I have to change when viewing a SD letterbox programs is the TV aspect ratio.

Hahaha...I have this issue too. I just can't seem to find the combination where SD and HD content is in the format it should be WHILE AT THE SAME TIME the TiVo guide does NOT come up on the screen way blown out of proportion! One is always off.

Either switch to Panel or Full on the tivo -- doesn't matter, somehow this is always off and requires far too many buttons to push from channel to channel. Especially since I'm in the plasma set break-in period and can't have any bars anywhere.

Lord have mercy!

[Vrael]

If the HR10 is outputting a 1080i signal, then it is the TV that is preventing you from filling the screen as you have discovered. I believe that this would be the case for any HD receiver you get. I have to do what you described with my Mits HDTV.

I can change the output on the HR10. I can do 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. It doesn't matter what I set it to. I still get a letterbox within a letterbox. The only two modes, however, that my TV will allow the "Zoom" feature is when I set the HR10 to 480i or 480p.

The funny thing is even though the HR10 is broadcasting that tiny letterbox view, pulling up the guide fills the screen. The TV doesn't differentiate between a guide and the picture. It is still one single signal being sent to the TV. So, knowing this, it is in fact the HR10 that is broadcasting the letterbox signal too small. Watch as you bring up the guide...it is wider, and taller, than the letterbox image.

[Vrael]

Unfortunately, this is something we all have to live with when viewing non-HD channels on a HDTV. Standard definition channels only broadcast in 480i using a 4:3 aspect ratio. If the program is letterboxed, then you will essentially get a letterbox within a letterbox. The only solution is to zoom the display to allow the image to fill the entire screen without the black bars. I'm not sure why you have to make any changes to the DVR settings, however. I believe I have mine set to Full all the time and the only setting I have to change when viewing a SD letterbox programs is the TV aspect ratio.

This is very unfortunate. ...

So, why did I buy a letterbox HD TV?

I believe this to be the fault of DirectTV and the HD-DVR. It will broadcast HD signals correctly, even on a 4:3 aspect. I am no guru on this subject, but there is a definite breakdown between the two signals. I think you have hit the nail on the head, however. The non-HD are broadcast in 480i, including letterboxed broadcasts.

There should be a setting to increase the broadcast signal to HD width for non-HD channels, primarily for non-HD letterbox.

[captain_video]

Your 16:9 "letterbox TV" is designed to display widescreen HD broadcasts in their proper aspect ratio. Standard definition programs are displayed so they fill the full height of the set, but in a 4:3 aspect ratio, resulting in vertical letterboxing on the sides of the display. When a letterboxed program is broadcast via SDTV, it shows up in letterbox format, but only large enough to fill the 4:3 SD display area, hence the letterbox within a letterbox.

There is nothing broken or wrong with the HDTivo or the TV or in the way the signal is being transmitted. This is simply the way it is. Most HDTVs have aspect ratio settings that will allow you to adjust the display so the image fills the screen. If you want SDTV to be displayed so you don't have to fiddle with the settings then get a 4:3 TV set. If this bothers you then I would recommend that you stop watching SD programming and stick with HDTV. Otherwise, learn to deal with it.

[mrb]

There is nothing broken or wrong with the HDTivo or the TV or in the way the signal is being transmitted. This is simply the way it is. Most HDTVs have aspect ratio settings that will allow you to adjust the display so the image fills the screen. If you want SDTV to be displayed so you don't have to fiddle with the settings then get a 4:3 TV set. If this bothers you then I would recommend that you stop watching SD programming and stick with HDTV. Otherwise, learn to deal with it.
If "this is simply the way it is" and "there is nothing broken or wrong with the HDTivo..." then why was this never an issue with my R10 unit, or when I had the antenna hooked straight to the TV? Now that the HR10 is hooked up I no longer even have the option of 4:3 aspect from the tv itself. It's strange.

[Vrael]

If "this is simply the way it is" and "there is nothing broken or wrong with the HDTivo..." then why was this never an issue with my R10 unit, or when I had the antenna hooked straight to the TV? Now that the HR10 is hooked up I no longer even have the option of 4:3 aspect from the tv itself. It's strange.

Yeah, the whole thing is really messed up. It's like I said before. If you bring up the guide, why is it that it is wider than the picture it is broadcasting? Think about it. The guide comes up in full letterbox width on a SD channel, but the letterbox picture it is broadcasting is smaller, not only in height, but more importantly, in width!

DirectTV needs to get on this and get it fixed. They obviously have it sending the signal of the guide to your TV in full width and they need to send the picture, ALSO, in full width. THIS, would fix the problem IMHO.

[captain_video]

What exactly do you expect DirecTV to fix? Keep in mind that DTV only relays the signals fed to it by the content providers. If they're transmitting a letterbox program in a 4:3 image area then that's what DTV will pass on to us. It's up to the TV manufacturers to provide the proper controls for changing the aspect ratio on the display device. This is not something that can be corrected by DirecTV so you guys are barking up the wrong tree.

To be honest, I'm not sure how setting the HDTivo aspect correction to "Full" will affect the image other than stretching a 4:3 image to fill a 16:9 screen using it's own version of Stretch-o-Vision. I hate that with a passion, which is why I leave the Tivo aspect ratio setting to include the side panels for 4:3 material. I suspect that the Tivo will simply stretch a letterboxed image to fill the screen horizontally without stretching it vertically as well to delete the black bands. This can most likely be corrected using the TV aspect ratio zoom setting. I find it a relatively simple task to change the aspect ration on the display using my remote, but YMMV depending on the design of your HDTV set.

The guide will be displayed in whatever format you specify on the Tivo. If you indicate you have a 16:9 display then that's what you'll always see, regardless of what the aspect ratio is for the program you are viewing. You're mixing apples and oranges here. The aspect ratio for the guide is generated by the Tivo whereas the program content aspect ratio is simply passed through to the TV from the source.

[jediphish]

Square Peg (SD tv channels), meet Round Hole (HD TV set).

In the future, there will be so few Square Pegs, that you won't encounter this problem very often. We're just not there yet. Unti then, you've got to shave, drill, cut, and screw to get everything to fit the way you want it to.

By the way - I have to hit a few buttons to be able to watch Battlestar Galactica full screen. Doesn't bother me much anymore.