Finally pulled the plug

[MikeW]

After years with DBS (D* '95-'00 & E* '00-today) I have turned off the dish for good. Let me state the reasons, and hope that E* realizes their methods need to change for the better or be swallowed up by cable.

I have three kids, a wife, an oft used guest room with a total of six televisions. I had subscribed to DHP on two receivers and cable took care of the other four. I use a cable modem for internet. If I didn't have cable, the cost would be an additional $10.00 for the service. I was offered a digital package at $5.00/mo. for three months that gave all digital chans + HBO&Showtime. Gotta say, the PQ on the digital chans is considerably better than on DishNetwork. The pixelation on my 52" Sony has been bad for months. The cost for keeping cable and Dish were too high. Here's what I determined..

1) PQ on Premium channels were better on cable.
2) Convenience of watching different channels on any set is a must.
3) Price!

What I had w/E*--
AEP-$72.99 (includes 29 Premium Chans)
Supers + DishNets - $11.99
DHP Warranty - $5.00
Extra Receiver - $5.00
Total - $94.98

What I get from cable--

Three Tier Digital - $50.85
(includes Local Channels & 41 Music Choice chans, IMO better than Muzak)
32 Premium Chans - $29.99 (8 Cinemax)
Living Room gets digital, all others get 70 chans
$80.84

On top of that, all Showtime, TMC, 2 HBO, Starz & Encore are broadcast w/DD 5.1.

Cox-$6.00 Cheaper
Cox-Better PQ
Cox-More DD 5.1
Cox-Different chans on all TVs

My final opinion:
Cable (at least in Las Vegas) seems to be moving at the speed of light. I don't have a HDTV, else I would discuss the fact that Cox also has more HDTV chans than dish, and charges a nominal fee for the equipment to receive it. I'd have to spend nearly $700 on EQ alone with E*. Cox has 2 HBO, 2 SHO, CBS, PBS, Disc HD plus converter, plus you get all other HBO&SHO for around $70/mo. But I digress...E*-- Improve PQ immediately! I don't care that it's digital if there is pixellation! The trade off for analog to pixellation is nominal. Re-evaluate pricing. Get on the stick with Cinemax! They have 10 channels, you give us 3 for $12.00??? DD5.1 is a must to enjoy movies. Utilize your bandwidth effectively.

I'll still lurk the forums, but I'll have to check out on DBS until there is a compelling reason to go back.

[Mike123abc]

You are lucky that your cable is so inexpensive. The same package you describe here runs about $114.

You also point out the biggest problem with Dish... PQ... They really, really, really need to get it fixed up. Not 4 years from now (if they get the merger).

Local cable companies will probably soon carry locals in HDTV plus at least as many HDTV cable channels as Dish can find.

If you look at the carrying capacity of modern cable, it is more than satellite. Assuming E/D merge each of the 32 transponders on DBS sattelite carries about 31mbit/sec using current technologies. So, they have 32transpX3satsX31mb/sec = about 3GB/sec, but they have to carry LIL to all 210 DMAs, so that wipes out about 1 sats worth of transponders, so they are down to 2GB/sec. A modern cable has about 700mhz at 64 QAM or about 2.8gbit/sec capacity.

So, a modern cable company has about the same capacity as a MERGED E/D* would have plus they do not have to do LIL into all DMAs.

Charlie is right they need more capacity. While I personally feel the merger is the wrong answer, it might be the only way to compete because building a bunch of Ka band satellites for capacity might be too much money for DBS companies to spend.

A modern cable company could in theory (if they dropped analog) carry about 150 HDTV channels.

[James_F]

I have that same deal here in Phoenix with even more local HDTV support. I am really thinking about dropping DBS and going with Cox. I might as well since they provide my telephone and cable modem.

[Mark Holtz]

If cable is better for you than DBS, then more power to you.

Dish had it's hands tied with the delayed launches of E*7 and E*8. We hope things will get better. I'm hoping that the merger will result in better codecs for better PQ and better security.

Probably the only things I miss with cable is the west coast feeds. Oh well. With the setup I have with Dish (501 + 2 301s, AT150+Sac locals+supers), I am getting as good as or better picture than with my local cableco. The local cableco doesn't even offer a PVR.

Of course, I still live at home with my mother (and responsible for the mortgage). If it wasn't for my mother, I wouldn't have dish or cable at all. Go figure.

[Frapp]

Originally posted by MikeW
After years with DBS (D* '95-'00 & E* '00-today) I have turned off the dish for good. Let me state the reasons, and hope that E* realizes their methods need to change for the better or be swallowed up by cable.

I have three kids, a wife, an oft used guest room with a total of six televisions. I had subscribed to DHP on two receivers and cable took care of the other four. I use a cable modem for internet. If I didn't have cable, the cost would be an additional $10.00 for the service. I was offered a digital package at $5.00/mo. for three months that gave all digital chans + HBO&Showtime. Gotta say, the PQ on the digital chans is considerably better than on DishNetwork. The pixelation on my 52" Sony has been bad for months. The cost for keeping cable and Dish were too high. Here's what I determined..

1) PQ on Premium channels were better on cable.
2) Convenience of watching different channels on any set is a must.
3) Price!

What I had w/E*--
AEP-$72.99 (includes 29 Premium Chans)
Supers + DishNets - $11.99
DHP Warranty - $5.00
Extra Receiver - $5.00
Total - $94.98

What I get from cable--

Three Tier Digital - $50.85
(includes Local Channels & 41 Music Choice chans, IMO better than Muzak)
32 Premium Chans - $29.99 (8 Cinemax)
Living Room gets digital, all others get 70 chans
$80.84

On top of that, all Showtime, TMC, 2 HBO, Starz & Encore are broadcast w/DD 5.1.

Cox-$6.00 Cheaper
Cox-Better PQ
Cox-More DD 5.1
Cox-Different chans on all TVs

My final opinion:
Cable (at least in Las Vegas) seems to be moving at the speed of light. I don't have a HDTV, else I would discuss the fact that Cox also has more HDTV chans than dish, and charges a nominal fee for the equipment to receive it. I'd have to spend nearly $700 on EQ alone with E*. Cox has 2 HBO, 2 SHO, CBS, PBS, Disc HD plus converter, plus you get all other HBO&SHO for around $70/mo. But I digress...E*-- Improve PQ immediately! I don't care that it's digital if there is pixellation! The trade off for analog to pixellation is nominal. Re-evaluate pricing. Get on the stick with Cinemax! They have 10 channels, you give us 3 for $12.00??? DD5.1 is a must to enjoy movies. Utilize your bandwidth effectively.

I'll still lurk the forums, but I'll have to check out on DBS until there is a compelling reason to go back.


We have the same delima here in the southeast. My wife has been after me for months to pull the plug on our DBS system and we probably will soon.

Satellite was a great ride while it lasted, but the glory days are about to be over for them. One thing Ergen did was show the cable companies where they needed to improve and improve they have in many parts of the country. This is why the merger ( if it could have been pulled off ) would have helped the DBS/DSS companies to survive in the long term as one entity.

[James]

If You have poor picture quality on E*, it was not installed correctly.

[Mike123abc]

Originally posted by James
If You have poor picture quality on E*, it was not installed correctly.

Well that is true on older TV sets. When you get a HDTV monitor/TV the resolution of the set goes way up and then you can really see the problems with DBS.

On my old sets E* shows a great picture. On my big screen and HDTV you can really see the pixel blocks and mpeg effects. If the picture has some fog/steam/smoke/etc in it, the compression problems go through the roof.

I would rate the picture on E* as "OK" now. It is about the same as cable. Cities where the cable plant has been really updated, you start to see cable with a big quality advantage.

[MikeW]

James,
As I understand it, you either have a picture or you don't. The pixellation is horrendous...especially w/sports and action movies. It wasn't the configuration, it is compression. I have a very critical eye when it comes to PQ. I've seen degredation over 5 years and it has nothing to do w/the setup. As mentioned above, the local cable co. has spent bucks upgrading the system. I can see the difference tremendously in my 52" Sony.

[James_F]

Originally posted by James
If You have poor picture quality on E*, it was not installed correctly.

I can't speak for Cox cable in Las Vegas, but here in Phoenix, I believe it looks better than either DirecTV or Dish. The extra bandwidth is being put to good use. Now in the same market, my parents have CableAmerica Digital Cable and I think the quality is bad compared to either Cox or DBS. So without seeing what his picture looks like, your statement isn't valid.

[Tanic]

I live in Phoenix and have Cox cable only cause my homeowners association forces the residents to take it. The picture quality is horrendous, and this is after several technicians came by the house and gave up.

So I also have an E* 6000 reveiver and am quite happy with it. Cox just began providing HD in Phoenix, but the require subscribers to buy each reveiver at 500 bucks each. You guys in Vegas are lucky.

[scooper]

Tanic - just quit paying Cox - I'll bet you get disconnected REAL quick :) . And if you put up an antenna and they say you can't - see my sig....

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

[Mark Holtz]

Here's my point....

I didn't install DBS in order to get the "home theater experience". I wasn't promised one either. I wanted an alternative to cable, with full knowledge of the limitations of the DBS system. Having to add 200 channels--some of which are just repeaters of national feeds with almost no locally-controlled content (ie newscasts, syndicated programming) has hurt the PQ of both Dish and DirecTV.

If you want to get the home theater experience, get DVD. The premium channels, IMHO, are a waste of money, partially because they show movies usually in pan-and-scan instead of the original aspect ratio. To it's credit, HBO does produce some notable series, and I do own a DVD copy of From The Earth To The Moon. But, I can't justify spending the money.

I also learned that, to add the Latino channels to Dish, I would have to spend an additional $20 per month. Until I master the lingo, I won't be adding the channels... yet.

This isn't a plea in order to get you back to the DBS fold. It's your money, and it's only TV.

[James_F]

Originally posted by Tanic
I live in Phoenix and have Cox cable only cause my homeowners association forces the residents to take it. The picture quality is horrendous, and this is after several technicians came by the house and gave up.
Well you must be in a bad area, because where I live its much better and cheaper.

So I also have an E* 6000 receiver and am quite happy with it. Cox just began providing HD in Phoenix, but the require subscribers to buy each receiver at 500 bucks each. You guys in Vegas are lucky.
Well thats be problem with all of this. Many of us have invested money in DBS that we would have to throw away or sell cheaply on ebay. BUT, you have to purchase a HD receiver from DirecTV, Dish or Cox. If I don't have to put an ugly dish on my wall then I'd be much happier. I have a SAT-HD100 receiver, but I paid much more for it than Cox is charging for their service. How in the hell do they think that people will move from Cox to DBS if the following is true:

1. Cox has a cheaper HD receiver.
2. Cox service is cheaper.
3. No dish.
4. I can have as many TVs as I want WITHOUT purchasing a switch.
5. Picture quality is as good or better in digital mode.
6. More premium channels
7. More HD channels (HD Locals without antenna)

Even with the merger, they can't address all these issues quick enough to stop people from getting two things that will keep them from switching.

A PVR and HD receiver. If a customer purchases these things, then there is almost no way to get them to switch without offering huge rebates, which will kill the company since they will have so much debt from this merger. No my friends, DBS has lost its edge in metro areas. I'd say they should focus on rural customers and figure out how to best serve them and let Cable own the cities. That is the only way I see DBS surviving.

[MikeW]

Z'Loth-Initally, that was why I went to DBS. I lived in a small town who's cable system hasn't been upgraded since 1980. I had the choice of 36 chans (incl. 3 spanish, 2 CSPAN, 3 HSNs) for $40 a month. DBS had better PQ, more chans and was cheaper. As above, the role has completely reversed in the two years since I moved to Las Vegas. I would agree, not all cable systems are better than DBS, but they do advertise "100% Digital Quality". That lends one to believe that the picture would be that much better. IMO, since the big boom of LIL, they have so damaged the PQ that the PQ issues resulting from the boom has degraded the viewing experience for me to the point that I got out. We all have our reasons for using DBS or Cable. As James points out, if the cable co. wishes to invest the money, they can and will be better than DBS. In many big cities, (not all), the cable cos. are doing just that. From what I have personally seen, Cox and Charter are two companies who appear to be taking care of systems while AT&T and Adelphia are amongst those who appear to take the customers money and do not invest it back into the system.

[dlsnyder]

Originally posted by MikeW
From what I have personally seen, Cox and Charter are two companies who appear to be taking care of systems while AT&T and Adelphia are amongst those who appear to take the customers money and do not invest it back into the system.

That is certainly true in my area. We aren't exactly in a major urban center but Adelphia was in the middle of a major system upgrade when all their financial trouble started. In my neighborhood they completed the upgrade of the wiring under the street, putting in fiber up to the distribution amplifiers, and left it connected to the old head end. We now have a 750mhz system and only 500mhz of it being used. The picture looks pretty good, though, even on analog channels. The thing that gets me is how expensive it is! They want $44.00/mo just for expanded basic - no boxes, no premiums, just the hookup to the TV (something like 60 channels).

It's no wonder that DBS penetration around here is better than 50% - and that Adelphia is having trouble financially!

[andrzejpw]

Huh. I too am in a similar dilemma. When our agreement for the 501 expires next year. . .

Damn, if I only knew if adelphia had dolby digital on its digital cable. . .

[dlsnyder]

andrzejpw -

Don't count on it. Even where the system has been upgraded out here to support internet and a large number of digital channels they still have no DD 5.1 or HDTV.

[Joel B]

You guys crack me up............. I also wanted an alternative to cable. I was sick and tired of their poor customer service. Their attitude with me was "We're the only game in town and we know it." Well guess what Time Warner Sucky Cable YOU'RE NOT! $55 a month for high speed internet, $40 a month for basic cable - give me a break! I get Dish for $22.99 a month where cable was $40 and the pic quality is great. All I'm saying is I'm glad I had an alternative. So cable gained a customer a lost a customer. Sa'la've.

[James_F]

Well one alternative goes away with the merger. :rolleyes:

[Joel B]

But that isn't the point though is it? Without DBS there is no alternative to the local cable company. It is very rare when an area has 2 cable companies competing, it just doesn't happen. But with DBS - whether there is only 1 DBS provider or 50 - whether the merger goes through or doesn't - there IS a choice to cable. And thank God for that!

[James_F]

But 3 choices are better than two. I still don't belive that cable and dbs are compeditors the way DirecTV and Echostar are. If we lose choice of DBS, then DBS will end up no better than cable.

[Nick]

James, whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. Cable is DBS' primary competition. Where do you think the preponderance of DBS subs come from? You, me and millions of others are refugees from the tyranny of cable's terrestrial monopolies and characteristically substandard service.

The impressive gains in market penetration that DBS has achieved is due, in most part, to its ability to deliver more channels, superior PQ and greater reliability. But, as some cables proceed to upgrade services, DBS will continue to improve its own capabilities in order to maintain its technological advantage.

This is the essence of market competition in a capitalist system. Why do you think a merged single DBS provider would not continue to improve in order to increase its market share. Mr. Ergen is a visionary, and I do not believe for a New York minute that, post-merger, he would not continue to drive his team to more innovative technological achievements in order to capture a significantly greater share of the multi-channel market.

More birds, more channels, less compression, locals into all DMAs, affordable high-speed internet access to the most remote parts of the country, and guaranteed, competitive national pricing that will continue to beat the cables. All this will come about as the direct result of economies of scale that a merged DBS provider will achieve.

When the merger is approved, it will be a victory not only for Echostar, but for everyone -- except the cables.

[cnsf]

Nick,

I hate to say it, but I'm somewhat skeptical about the merger after having been a fan in the beginning.

I get the impression Echostar has focused so much attention on the merger, they've left out the customer.

If they were to merge, the purchasing power and customer base, nationally, would put them in a very strong negotiating position, almost too strong. This could affect overall rates by forcing companies like YES to take strong stances on price and leave the "merged company" customer in the cold (with an expensive option for the network or none at all). YES may be a bad example, but as a NY customer and overall sports fan, I feel slighted by E* now (may have been my mistake for not going with D* in the first place).

Charlie has not been an advocate for the largest DMA in the country to date, so why would that change going forward with a merger?

[James_F]

Originally posted by Nick
James, whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. Cable is DBS' primary competition. Where do you think the preponderance of DBS subs come from? You, me and millions of others are refugees from the tyranny of cable's terrestrial monopolies and characteristically substandard service.
I'm here because of NFLST. I hate my dish, I hate the picture quality, but I love football and MLBEI. That is why I have a dish.
The impressive gains in market penetration that DBS has achieved is due, in most part, to its ability to deliver more channels, superior PQ and greater reliability. But, as some cables proceed to upgrade services, DBS will continue to improve its own capabilities in order to maintain its technological advantage.
I agree to a point. DBS has show great strides over the last couple of year until "must carry". Since then, they have fallen back. Maybe the merger solves this problem, maybe not. Cable companies have larger bandwidth and can deliver more channels than DBS. I believe I am lucky here in Phoenix to have a good cable system. I'm sure some people have bad ones. What I am saying is DBS has hit their limit on bandwidth. Any gained bandwidth will be used to deliver 210 markets of local channels and not improve Picture Quality or HDTV IMHO.

This is the essence of market competition in a capitalist system. Why do you think a merged single DBS provider would not continue to improve in order to increase its market share. Mr. Ergen is a visionary, and I do not believe for a New York minute that, post-merger, he would not continue to drive his team to more innovative technological achievements in order to capture a significantly greater share of the multi-channel market.
He is no longer by himself. He has people who have invested in this merger and will want to see a return. The ability to raise rates to pay down debt will be too easy to ignore. We'll see when the merger happens, but I just don't see how they don't raise rates. :shrug:

More birds, more channels, less compression, locals into all DMAs, affordable high-speed internet access to the most remote parts of the country, and guaranteed, competitive national pricing that will continue to beat the cables. All this will come about as the direct result of economies of scale that a merged DBS provider will achieve.
I agree with this in principle. The reason DBS works is because of a national network. While Cox seems great in my neighborhood, I know people near me who complain about the service. At least with DBS all subs should have the same picture quality and service. That is why DBS has succeeded. The issue is cable companies have also merged and their economies of scale will come into play as much as DBS.

When the merger is approved, it will be a victory not only for Echostar, but for everyone -- except the cables.
We'll see. I believe that we have seen the high point of DBS. They should focus on delivering DBS to rural America and let large cities fall to cable. I hope you are right Nick, since I am a sub too, but I guess I see too much baggage. Talk to Steve Case about merging and having a vision. Sometimes those you bring on, will expose you for a fraud. :shrug:

[Jack White]

Originally posted by James
If You have poor picture quality on E*, it was not installed correctly.

I have Dish Network, and analog cable.
My system is installed properly, all my dish recievers are hooked up directly to televisions using thick S-video cables, and my televisions are properly calibrated.
My analog cable still easily beats Dish Network in picture quality across the board in my opinion.