Not Understanding "native" mode

[mocciat]

I'm not really understanding "native" mode. What is the benefit or the downside. I have been running native off and set to 1080i stretch on a panasonic 50 inch plasma. Why would I want anything but being set at 1080i? If the broadcast is in anything else won't the tv or box downconvert?

Sorry for being naive. Thanks in advance for the info.

[JCO]

Hardly any Plasmas are 1080 resolution, if yours is 720 and most likely it is, you are converting 480 and 720 broadcasts to 1080 and then back to 720 in your set. this is not good thing to do. If your set is 720 resolution I would recommend using native or set you HR20 to 720 output.

[bwaldron]

Why would I want anything but being set at 1080i? If the broadcast is in anything else won't the tv or box downconvert?

If you use native on, the TV will handle the scaling and/or deinterlacing. If you set the HR20 to 1080i w/ native off, then the DVR handles it.

Some TVs have noticeably better scalers than the HR20, and some people prefer to let the TV handle it...but the HR20 does a pretty good job, and you get quicker channel changing.

Native on can also be useful if you want to use the TV's own "stretch" modes for 480i content, without manually changing the format on the DVR each time you switch to a SD channel.

In general native on can provide slightly better quality on some TVs, at the cost of slower channel changes as the TV has to switch resolutions with the channels.

There's no "right" answer, it is a personal choice...and it's good to have the choice--it is one area where the HR20 is superior to the HR10.

Oh, also, some people believe that native=on may be associated with certain bugs appearing on the HR20, though I'm agnostic on that matter, haven't see it with recent software versions.

[bwaldron]

Hardly any Plasmas are 1080 resolution, if yours is 720 and most likely it is, you are converting 480 and 720 broadcasts to 1080 and then back to 720 in your set. this is not good thing to do. If your set is 720 resolution I would recommend using native or set you HR20 to 720 output.

Not necessarily, though it would seem so.

Most plasmas are actually 768p and have to scale anyway. Newer Panasonic models scale and/or deinterlace everything received up to 1080p internally for processing, then back down for display. Many people report slightly better quality setting everything to 1080i than everything to 720p. But the differences are generally slight.

Me, I find native to be the most suitable setting for my purposes.

[JCO]

If you use native on, the TV will handle the scaling and/or deinterlacing. If you set the HR20 to 1080i w/ native off, then the DVR handles it.

Some TVs have noticeably better scalers than the HR20, and some people prefer to let the TV handle it...but the HR20 does a pretty good job, and you get quicker channel changing.

Native on can also be useful if you want to use the TV's own "stretch" modes for 480i content, without manually changing the format on the DVR each time you switch to a SD channel.

In general native on can provide slightly better quality on some TVs, at the cost of slower channel changes as the TV has to switch resolutions with the channels.

There's no "right" answer, it is a personal choice...and it's good to have the choice--it is one area where the HR20 is superior to the HR10.

Oh, also, some people believe that native=on may be associated with certain bugs appearing on the HR20, though I'm agnostic on that matter, haven't see it with recent software versions. you are mistaken in assuming any scaling is even needed. If he watches a 720P broadcast on a 720 native set with the HR-20 set to native, THERE IS NO SCALING OCCURING, which is ideal. IF he watches the same program on the same set with the HR20 set to "1080i", the broadcast gets scaled to 1080i and then back to 720 which not only loses resolution to scaling interpolation losses, there is also a MAJOR frame rate loss, as half of the 60 frames per second of the 720P broadcast are lost when going 720>1080>720. this is BAD BAD BAD. Like I said, it's not just a matter of what scales best, the HR-20 or the HDTV, its sometimes a matter of no scaling needed vs very bad scaling unnecessarily going on.

[bwaldron]

you are mistaken in assuming any scaling is even needed. If he watches a 720P broadcast on a 720 native set with the HR-20 set to native, THERE IS NO SCALING OCCURING, which is ideal. IF he watches the same program on the same set with the HR20 set to "1080i", the broadcast gets scaled to 1080i and then back to 720 which not only loses resolution to scaling interpolation losses, there is also a MAJOR frame rate loss, as half of the 60 frames per second of the 720P broadcast are lost when going 720>1080>720. this is BAD BAD BAD. Like I said, it's not just a matter of what scales best, the HR-20 or the HDTV, its sometimes a matter of no scaling needed vs very bad scaling unnecessarily going on.

For sets that are indeed native 720p, I agree with your assessment.

However, you mentioned plasmas -- and most of them are not native 720p, they are 768p. So scaling is involved. How this is accomplished differs between models. It is quite possible, and confirmed in real world use, that sending a 1080i signal to a 768p plasma produces a better picture than sending 720p. Some plasma models have been demonstrated to be particularly bad at handling 720p signals...Panasonic models prior to 2004 or so wouldn't even accept 720p.

[JCO]

For sets that are indeed native 720p, I agree with your assessment.

However, you mentioned plasmas -- and most of them are not native 720p, they are 768p. So scaling is involved. How this is accomplished differs between models. It is quite possible, and confirmed in real world use, that sending a 1080i signal to a 768p plasma produces a better picture than sending 720p. Some plasma models have been demonstrated to be particularly bad at handling 720p signals...Panasonic models prior to 2004 or so wouldn't even accept 720p. you obviously dont understand the word "IF". I said
if his set was 720P and he didnt state what it was. And secondly there are TWO
issues here, format/display resolution and format/display FRAME RATE. Even if his set was 768 and had to rescale 720P/60 to 768P/60 that would be far better than scaling 720P/60 to 1080i/60 and back to 768/P60 because in that case you LOSE half of the 60 progressive frames and you dont when you convert 720P/60 to 768P/60. If his set wont even accept a 720P signal then of course its not the best setting to use (Whats your point?) but sets that dont accept 720P input are about as rare as hen's teeth today.

[bwaldron]

you obviously dont understand the word "IF". I said
if his set was 720P and he didnt state what it was. And secondly there are TWO
issues here, format/display resolution and format/display FRAME RATE. Even if his set was 768 and had to rescale 720P/60 to 768P/60 that would be far better than scaling 720P/60 to 1080i/60 and back to 768/P60 because in that case you LOSE half of the 60 progressive frames and you dont when you convert 720P/60 to 768P/60. If his set wont even accept a 720P signal then of course its not the best setting to use (Whats your point?) but sets that dont accept 720P input are about as rare as hen's teeth today.

Sigh. You said:

>> Hardly any Plasmas are 1080 resolution, if yours is 720 and most likely it is

My emphasis added. I was pointing out that most likely it isn't 720p.

Trust me, I understand the issues very well. And what you are saying is not always true for all plasma processing engines in design nor real world use. But this has veered into a discussion better suited for AVSforums, so I'm done.

[JMILLER]

I tend to prefer 720P broadcasts on my Pioneer plasma. The minute scaling to 768P is less noticable to my eyes than the interlacing on 1080i.

Personal preference...

That being said, I live with the res change lag of native mainly because the pillar boxing of the HR20 with gray pillars leaves gaps of solid black between the pillars and the 4:3 programs...Sort of defeating the purpose of using gray...

The Pio's 4:3 for SD programs is much cleaner with respect to this. If the HR20 improves the pillar boxing...then I might consider using 720P w/o Native...

[bwaldron]

That being said, I live with the res change lag of native mainly because the pillar boxing of the HR20 with gray pillars leaves gaps of solid black between the pillars and the 4:3 programs...Sort of defeating the purpose of using gray...

The Pio's 4:3 for SD programs is much cleaner with respect to this. If the HR20 improves the pillar boxing...then I might consider using 720P w/o Native...

Yes, that "black bar w/ grey pillar" bug is annoying and really looks shoddy. It does indeed defeat the purpose of using gray, and is a key reason I use native as well.

With a Pioneer, you're better off sending 480i to the plasma anyway, they do a quite good job of handling SD (though nothing can make the overly compressed SD we get from D* look very good).

[veryoldschool]

Let's not repeat the last time all over again. Several days of it got very old. Everyone should be free to pick what they like without being told they don't know what they're doing.
This issue is more a personal preference than anything else, since what really counts is what each of us like, and not what someone else tells them to do.
Play with the buttons & settings, find what you like [in your eyes] and understand that someone else may prefer different settings.

[mganga]

Let's not repeat the last time all over again. Several days of it got very old. Everyone should be free to pick what they like without being told they don't know what they're doing.
This issue is more a personal preference than anything else, since what really counts is what each of us like, and not what someone else tells them to do.
Play with the buttons & settings, find what you like [in your eyes] and understand that someone else may prefer different settings.

Interesting idea, Old Skoo....

JCO, do you have any opinions on these matters?

[JCO]

Sigh. You said:

>> Hardly any Plasmas are 1080 resolution, if yours is 720 and most likely it is

My emphasis added. I was pointing out that most likely it isn't 720p.

Trust me, I understand the issues very well. And what you are saying is not always true for all plasma processing engines in design nor real world use. But this has veered into a discussion better suited for AVSforums, so I'm done. Well dont say Im wrong HERE, and then say your done. There is NO WAY the 1080i format can do 60 discrete frames per sec the way 720P/60 format does. It only can do 30 frames per sec. When you cross convert a 720P/60 signal to 1080i/60 format and back to 720P/60 YOU LOSE half of the original 60 frames per second. If 1080i/60 could do 60 frames per second we wouldnt have, need, or be broadcasting (ABC/ESPN,FOX) in 720P/60 would we? 720P/60 to 1080i/60 and 108i/60 to 720P/60 cross conversions are ALWAYS LOSSY. In the first case you lose frame rate and maintain resolution and in the second case you lose resolution and maintain frame rate. Both of these resulting cross conversions are WORSE than either 720P/60 or 1080i/60 because you get the lowest common denominator of each of the formats after the cross conversions. Thats why its bad to use a fixed 7020p/60 or 1080i/60 output from the box all the time if your set can do both 1080 resolution and 60 progressive frames per sec.

[veryoldschool]

See my posting on the other thread.
Don't start this up again. We all can have our own opinions.
You're starting it up again & this thread will get locked [closed] just like last time, if you/we don't show restraint. Is this what you want?

[JCO]

Interesting idea, Old Skoo....

JCO, do you have any opinions on these matters?

Yes I do. Higher resolution is always better, higher framerate is always better.
If someone "prefers" settings that force lower these things ( only reason I could
see that would be to avoid the pause while your set resyncs on the new format while changing channels ) that's fine but I suspect they were not getting really top notch program material when they do these comparisons and find "no difference" with these forced lowered parameters compared to standard higher parameters. Another possible explanation is their set is simply incapable of displaying the full resolution of 1080i or the full 60 fps of 720P. In those cases, lowering the parameters may do no harm that hasnt already been done but on really good sharp fast sets, you wouldnt want to do that. you can only "get away"
with that stuff on lower end sets that cant meet the full specs of both 1080i and 720p broadcasts anyway...

[JCO]

See my posting on the other thread.
Don't start this up again. We all can have our own opinions.
You're starting it up again & this thread will get locked [closed] just like last time, if you/we don't show restraint. Is this what you want?

If we can all have our own opionions why are you continuing to squelch mine?
this is discussion group and this a thread concerning digital formats and the pros and cons of native settings. Why not discuss it ? ? ?

[veryoldschool]

If we can all have our own opionions why are you continuing to squelch mine?
this is discussion group and this a thread concerning digital formats and the pros and cons of native settings. Why not discuss it ? ? ?
Because your: "Well dont say Im wrong HERE, and then say your done", isn't a discussion. It's an argument, which has no place here.
If you don't know the difference don't post.

[JCO]

Because your: "Well dont say Im wrong HERE, and then say your done", isn't a discussion. It's an argument, which has no place here.
If you don't know the difference don't post. I didnt post just that, I posted a very clear and factual explaination why I wasnt wrong after that sentence. if I only posted
what you have quoted that would be one thing, but I didnt. and for someone to post I am wrong in my previous post and then proceed to bail out, is most argumentative thing possible because they want their cake and eat it too. If they cant discuss the matter any further they have no business saying I am wrong about something and proceeding to run away from the discussion should they? I honestly feel that if you are going to say someone is wrong about something you should be prepared to back it up why they are wrong and continue the discussion, not just slander and run.

[veryoldschool]

Both of these threads are going way off topic. We should PM to continue, but...
While you did post more, your "lead in" was surely argumentative in nature. This is the same problem as before with the other threads that went on for days.
The "hit & run" is because they are tired of::beatdeadhorse:
PM me & we can continue a "discussion" and let this go:backtotop

[spivey]

If you have native on, does it really matter what boxes are selected underneath it? Could I deselect all of them? Or leave them all selected for that matter? If only 1080i is selected, does that mean the HR20 is going to upconvert all other signals then pass it to the TV?

[cawgijoe]

I need a little help here also......I have two HD sets......a Sony 34XBR800 which is capable of 1080i resolution.

I also have a Vizio 32" set that is capable of 720p.

The Sony is connected to an HR20......the Vizio to a H20.

I know that in Native mode it takes much longer to switch between channels because the box needs to figure out the resolution......ignoring that annoying fact, what shoud these sets be set at to obtain to avoid extra processing and receive the "best" PQ?

Should the Sony be set at 1080i only? I currently have it accepting all formats and have Native turned ON.

Shoule the Vizio be set a 720P only? I currently have it accepting all formats and have Native turned OFF......much quicker channel changes and the front panel display always shows 1080i......picture is excellent.

Thanks for any help here.

[veryoldschool]

If only 1080i is selected, does that mean the HR20 is going to upconvert all other signals then pass it to the TV?
Yes. With only 1080i selected, the HR-20 "thinks: your TV will only show 1080i. Really it's more like if you only have 720P selected [some TVs won't show 1080i] then the HR-20 will never "pass" 1080i to the TV with native on. :)

[veryoldschool]

I need a little help here also......I have two HD sets......a Sony 34XBR800 which is capable of 1080i resolution.
I also have a Vizio 32" set that is capable of 720p.
The Sony is connected to an HR20......the Vizio to a H20.
I know that in Native mode it takes much longer to switch between channels because the box needs to figure out the resolution......ignoring that annoying fact, what should these sets be set at to obtain to avoid extra processing and receive the "best" PQ?
Should the Sony be set at 1080i only? I currently have it accepting all formats and have Native turned ON.
Should the Visio be set a 720P only? I currently have it accepting all formats and have Native turned OFF......much quicker channel changes and the front panel display always shows 1080i......picture is excellent.
Thanks for any help here.
I think you have both set so the picture would be the best. I have a Sony & use the same settings & I've heard [I don't have one] that the scaler in the Visio isn't as good as the Sony & so using the scaler in the H-20 is as good [or better] than the Visio.
See you don't have to be a rocket scientist to find what works best on your systems. Your eyes showed you, which is what I've been trying to get across. :)

[BJM]

Here's a newbie question: how can I tell that my set can process 60fps at 1080i? Would that be in the specs?

[veryoldschool]

Here's a newbie question: how can I tell that my set can process 60fps at 1080i? Would that be in the specs?
1080P would be the spec that would show 1920 x 1080 progressive scan. There are no TV programs in this format though. Some new HD DVD [blu-ray] that will have this, but HDTV is either 720P or 1080i. :)

[kaminsco]

Here's a newbie question: how can I tell that my set can process 60fps at 1080i? Would that be in the specs?

I do believe that this 1080p. 1080i at the fast frame rate of 60 fps is 1080p. Not a technical experrt but, that is my understanding.

As far as specs, look to see if it has the spec of 1080p. Also note, that it is my understanding that true 1080p is only delivered through blue ray disc DVD or the other HD DVD version and gaming units like the playstation 3.

[Tom_S]

To my eyes on my Panny 58PX60U it looks best set Native Off 1080i. 720p output from HR20 looks soft to me. But hey, that's just me.

[veryoldschool]

To my eyes on my Panny 58PX60U it looks best set Native Off 1080i. 720p output from HR20 looks soft to me. But hey, that's just me.
How could you pick such a horrible setting? :lol: :lol: :lol:
You might be missing one of those frame rate thingies..:lol: :lol: :lol:

[mtnagel]

This seemed like a good thread for my question.

I have a Sony KDF-46E2000. Native rez is 720p, but it supports them all.

First I figured 720p would be the best to leave on since it's the tv's native rez, so anything in that would need no conversion. And I removed 1080i. Now I'm not sure why. Maybe because it wasn't the native rez, so I figured it would be best to convert the 720p signal to 1080i, but now I'm thinking it may be good to leave that on so anything in 1080i (NBC and CBS) would not get converted. Does that logic make sense.

Then I figured that since there are progressive DVD players that can make a 480i signal into a 480p, that it would be best to turn off 480i and leave on 480p to make it progressive, but like above, now I'm not thinking that's so great since it's taking the 480i and converting it to p. Should I also have 480i selected so it doesn't have to convert it.

Please don't tell me to use my eyes as I don't think I can tell the difference. Just tell me scientifically what makes the most sense :)

[Johnny Ace]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this...

I have a 1 year old Panasonic 42" ED Plasma (obviously 480p). Am I best to leave the HR20 set to native and let the TV convert or set the HR20 to 480p and let it convert.

I don't really have any complaints about picture quality except to say that NBC's NFL HD broadcasts are the worst looking (tons of motion artifacts) while FOX/ABC/ESPN's HD broadcasts are AMAZING! (I am getting Atlanta locals off the SAT).

Any ideas?

[veryoldschool]

This seemed like a good thread for my question.
I have a Sony KDF-46E2000. Native rez is 720p, but it supports them all.
First I figured 720p would be the best to leave on since it's the tv's native rez, so anything in that would need no conversion. And I removed 1080i. Now I'm not sure why. Maybe because it wasn't the native rez, so I figured it would be best to convert the 720p signal to 1080i, but now I'm thinking it may be good to leave that on so anything in 1080i (NBC and CBS) would not get converted. Does that logic make sense.
Then I figured that since there are progressive DVD players that can make a 480i signal into a 480p, that it would be best to turn off 480i and leave on 480p to make it progressive, but like above, now I'm not thinking that's so great since it's taking the 480i and converting it to p. Should I also have 480i selected so it doesn't have to convert it.
Please don't tell me to use my eyes as I don't think I can tell the difference. Just tell me scientifically what makes the most sense :)
First: the DVD I don't think converts, it either outputs the content interlaced or progressive scan.
Second: SD [old TV] was interlaced so it comes 480i.
Third: HD comes in two versions 720P & 1080i.
These are the three types of broadcast TV.
Fourth: native on or off would depend on whether you want the HR-20 [[off] or your Sony [on] to do the conversion. :)

[TomF]

This seemed like a good thread for my question.

I have a Sony KDF-46E2000. Native rez is 720p, but it supports them all.

First I figured 720p would be the best to leave on since it's the tv's native rez, so anything in that would need no conversion. And I removed 1080i. Now I'm not sure why. Maybe because it wasn't the native rez, so I figured it would be best to convert the 720p signal to 1080i, but now I'm thinking it may be good to leave that on so anything in 1080i (NBC and CBS) would not get converted. Does that logic make sense.

Then I figured that since there are progressive DVD players that can make a 480i signal into a 480p, that it would be best to turn off 480i and leave on 480p to make it progressive, but like above, now I'm not thinking that's so great since it's taking the 480i and converting it to p. Should I also have 480i selected so it doesn't have to convert it.

Please don't tell me to use my eyes as I don't think I can tell the difference. Just tell me scientifically what makes the most sense :)
Your HDTV's native mode is 720p. It will support 720p and 1080i inputs, but since the native mode is 720p, it downconverts 1080i signals to 720p. So there is no reason to select 1080i on your HR20, because if you receive a 720p signal, the HR20 will upconvert it to 1080i and then your TV will downconvert it to 720p. If you have your HR20 set to 720p, it will be passed to your TV with no conversion and your TV will display it natively.

Progressive scan DVD players do not "make" a 480i signal into a 480p signal, the native resolution of a DVD is 480p. So a non-progressive scan DVD player downconverts it to 480i so that it can be displayed on a non-digital TV. A progressive scan DVD player just sends the 480p signal to a digital TV.

On my HR20 I have 480i checked, Screen Format is Stretch, and Native Mode is on. When I switch from an HD channel to an SD channel, the HR20 output resolution is set to 480i, and it displays the picture in my TV's progressive stretch format. When I switch back to an HD channel, it automatically changes the output to 1080i.

I don't have 480p set on my HR20, because if a 480i signal is upconverted to 480p, I can't use the TV's progressive stretch to spread the picture across the screen, I have to use the HR20's stretch, pillar box, or crop.

[mtnagel]

First: the DVD I don't think converts, it either outputs the content interlaced or progressive scan.
Second: SD [old TV] was interlaced so it comes 480i.
Third: HD comes in two versions 720P & 1080i.
These are the three types of broadcast TV.
Fourth: native on or off would depend on whether you want the HR-20 [[off] or your Sony [on] to do the conversion. :)Your HDTV's native mode is 720p. It will support 720p and 1080i inputs, but since the native mode is 720p, it downconverts 1080i signals to 720p. So there is no reason to select 1080i on your HR20, because if you receive a 720p signal, the HR20 will upconvert it to 1080i and then your TV will downconvert it to 720p. If you have your HR20 set to 720p, it will be passed to your TV with no conversion and your TV will display it natively.

Progressive scan DVD players do not "make" a 480i signal into a 480p signal, the native resolution of a DVD is 480p. So a non-progressive scan DVD player downconverts it to 480i so that it can be displayed on a non-digital TV. A progressive scan DVD player just sends the 480p signal to a digital TV.

On my HR20 I have 480i checked, Screen Format is Stretch, and Native Mode is on. When I switch from an HD channel to an SD channel, the HR20 output resolution is set to 480i, and it displays the picture in my TV's progressive stretch format. When I switch back to an HD channel, it automatically changes the output to 1080i.

I don't have 480p set on my HR20, because if a 480i signal is upconverted to 480p, I can't use the TV's progressive stretch to spread the picture across the screen, I have to use the HR20's stretch, pillar box, or crop.Thanks guys. Very helpful. Couple more questions though.

If something is broadcast in 1080i, and I have only 720p on, then the HR20 is doing the converting and then passing it on to the tv. But if I have both 720p and 1080i on, then the HR20 is passing the 1080i to the tv and it's downconverting, right? I think I heard the scaler in my Sony tv is pretty good, so wouldn't I want to the tv to do it? Or is that one of those things that is up to my eyes?

Now, onto the 480 stuff (I didn't know that DVDs were 480p to begin with; learn something new everyday). Anyway, if the signal from the SD stations is 480i, if I have 480p and 720p selected, does the HR20 convert it to 480p and then the tv converts it to 720p or does the tv display the 480p or does HR20 convert it to 720p and then the tv takes that and displays it?

Thanks again. I think I'm almost there.

[vanthof]

To my eyes on my Panny 58PX60U it looks best set Native Off 1080i. 720p output from HR20 looks soft to me. But hey, that's just me.

This may be because the HR20 may have a better video driver/scaler than the video input processor on your panasonic. Just a thought.

Dave

[veryoldschool]

Thanks guys. Very helpful. Couple more questions though.

If something is broadcast in 1080i, and I have only 720p on, then the HR20 is doing the converting and then passing it on to the tv. But if I have both 720p and 1080i on, then the HR20 is passing the 1080i to the tv and it's downconverting, right? I think I heard the scaler in my Sony tv is pretty good, so wouldn't I want to the tv to do it? Or is that one of those things that is up to my eyes? This is an "eye thing" [which is better]
Anyway, if the signal from the SD stations is 480i, if I have 480p and 720p selected, does the HR20 convert it to 480p and then the tv converts it to 720p or does the tv display the 480p or does HR20 convert it to 720p and then the tv takes that and displays it? Thanks again. I think I'm almost there.
Your Sony can/will display anything [well/great]. Now if the signal is 480i: you can send it to the TV [480i/native on] and the Sony will do everything. If you have the HR-20 set to 720P [native off] the HR-20 does all the work. Other settings will have some "work" done by both. :)

[TomF]

If something is broadcast in 1080i, and I have only 720p on, then the HR20 is doing the converting and then passing it on to the tv. But if I have both 720p and 1080i on, then the HR20 is passing the 1080i to the tv and it's downconverting, right? I think I heard the scaler in my Sony tv is pretty good, so wouldn't I want to the tv to do it?
Hmm, hadn't thought about the opposite scenario. Makes sense, but I don't really know.


Anyway, if the signal from the SD stations is 480i, if I have 480p and 720p selected, does the HR20 convert it to 480p and then the tv converts it to 720p or does the tv display the 480p or does HR20 convert it to 720p and then the tv takes that and displays it?
Not being familiar with your TV, I don't know whether it will upconvert 480 signals to 720p. With my TV if I set the HR20 to 480p and 1080i the HR20 converts the 480i signal and sends it to my TV as 480p and that's how the TV displays it.

[cricks]

Okay, I have a 1080p Samsung. I think it scales everthing to 1080p. I dont care about channel change times. That being said, for best PQ, I should turn native "ON" and select every output in the list?

Currently I have it set to native "Off" and every format selected.

[veryoldschool]

Okay, I have a 1080p Samsung. I think it scales everything to 1080p. I don't care about channel change times. That being said, for best PQ, I should turn native "ON" and select every output in the list?
Currently I have it set to native "Off" and every format selected.
With "off" set you don't know how well your Samsung scales, as you're using the HR-20.
With native "on" [and everything checked] you will be able to see how your TV scales. After "playing with it" you will have to count on what you see to decide which is better.
Another option would be to listen to someone that may or may not know what they're talking about & then do what they say.
Bottom-line: you're the one that will be watching it, so you have to decide what looks best for you. :)

[Tiger Tony]

To "JCO" and "veryoldschool"

I for one find your disagreement about the Native setting very interesting.

This Native setting thing use to confuse the heck out of me, in fact I even started a thread many weeks ago trying to understand so that I could choose the right setting. I've read every thread and post on this forum about the Native setting, in an effort to un-confuse myself :)
Both of you are obviously very passionate and knowledgable about the subject.
I learned a little something from both of you, I feel that your conflicts and diffrence of opinions have been helpful.
With that said, and without taking sides..........on my unit Sam HLS-5687 I find "Native ON" with 720 and 1080 selected, to be my perfered setting.
I also agree with "veryoldschool" that it all in the eye of the beholder, there is no right or wrong way. It's all a matter of what is best for each individual.

So I hope you will continue to discuss issues so that we can all learn from the both of you.

[veryoldschool]

Thanks, as I know we both like to help. I like to learn every day.
Discussions are great, but arguments aren't. :grin:

[robnaud]

I believe the check boxes under native ON are telling the HR20 which formats that your TV can natively handle. So when you clear one of those check boxes, the HR20 will now scale a broadcast in that format to the nearest "checked" format. For example, my TV supports 480i to 1080i, but I only checked 480p and 720p. So, a 1080i broadcast is scaled to 720p. As previously stated, I chose this configuration because it looked best to me.
My main motive for native being ON is that when I switch between HD & SD programming, it automatically adjusts the output format to match the program as well as my 4:3 TV. In contrast, you had to manually change the output format of the HR10. If I watched a SD show with an HD output setting, I would have bars all around the picture - my wife named that "little box"!

[veryoldschool]

I believe the check boxes under native ON are telling the HR20 which formats that your TV can natively handle. So when you clear one of those check boxes, the HR20 will now scale a broadcast in that format to the nearest "checked" format. For example, my TV supports 480i to 1080i, but I only checked 480p and 720p. So, a 1080i broadcast is scaled to 720p. As previously stated, I chose this configuration because it looked best to me.
My main motive for native being ON is that when I switch between HD & SD programming, it automatically adjusts the output format to match the program as well as my 4:3 TV. In contrast, you had to manually change the output format of the HR10. If I watched a SD show with an HD output setting, I would have bars all around the picture - my wife named that "little box"!
Yes this is correct. What you have checked is what the HR-20 will output [with or without native] With native off, you can cycle through the resolutions [format button] & with native on you can't.

[gusmahler]

The problem I have with Native mode is that it doesn't always know what the correct mode should be. Sometimes when I go to NBC, it is in 720p mode. Sometimes, it is in 1080i mode. The correct mode is 1080i, so I have no idea why it doesn't know this.

If you were to see a drastic difference between 720p and 1080i, you can just use the format key to switch to the correct mode, based on the channel. Personally, I have a 1080p set and the difference between the two modes is minimal at best (to my eyes).

And the delay in changing channels in Native mode, while not bad when switching in the 200s and above, is absolutely atrocious when I'm surfing my locals. So I leave Native off.

[raw6464]

...
If you were to see a drastic difference between 720p and 1080i, you can just use the format key to switch to the correct mode, based on the channel. Personally, I have a 1080p set and the difference between the two modes is minimal at best (to my eyes).

And the delay in changing channels in Native mode, while not bad when switching in the 200s and above, is absolutely atrocious when I'm surfing my locals. So I leave Native off.


I agree. I doubt anybody could do a blind test and consistently tell what mode (720 or 1080) a TV was in without having two TVs running side by side at the same time and scrutinizing both. The operative word here is consistent!

The delay in native mode is atrocious and not worth any perceptible gain in definition.

Leaving the HR20 in whatever the TV native mode in gives more than acceptable PQ and channel control.

I have Native off and the only display I use is 1080. I’ve tried more than once to see if I can tell the difference playing with Native On 480/720/1080 options and living with the delay in channel changing… it wasn’t worth the effort.

[veryoldschool]

I agree. I doubt anybody could do a blind test and consistently tell what mode (720 or 1080) a TV was in without having two TVs running side by side at the same time and scrutinizing both. The operative word here is consistent!
The delay in native mode is atrocious and not worth any perceptible gain in definition.
Leaving the HR20 in whatever the TV native mode in gives more than acceptable PQ and channel control.
I have Native off and the only display I use is 1080. I’ve tried more than once to see if I can tell the difference playing with Native On 480/720/1080 options and living with the delay in channel changing… it wasn’t worth the effort.

Basically I must agree with you. There are somethings I've learned to look for to tell which is which, but if you're happy, enjoy. Why geek out? :)

[Tom_S]

How could you pick such a horrible setting? :lol: :lol: :lol:
You might be missing one of those frame rate thingies..:lol: :lol: :lol:

Like I said. It's just me. I tried all different settings over many days and this one looks the best TO ME. YMMV.

Maybe it's due to HR20 Scaling a 1080i picture down to 720p and the TV upscaling to 768p. I dunno, sounds good, helps me sleep at night.

[veryoldschool]

Like I said. It's just me. I tried all different settings over many days and this one looks the best TO ME. YMMV.
Maybe it's due to HR20 Scaling a 1080i picture down to 720p and the TV upscaling to 768p. I dunno, sounds good, helps me sleep at night.
I do hope you took my post as a joke.
I am a firm supporter of users picking & using what they like/want. :)

[Tom_S]

Yes, I did.

[bwaldron]

I agree. I doubt anybody could do a blind test and consistently tell what mode (720 or 1080) a TV was in without having two TVs running side by side at the same time and scrutinizing both. The operative word here is consistent!

The delay in native mode is atrocious and not worth any perceptible gain in definition.

Leaving the HR20 in whatever the TV native mode in gives more than acceptable PQ and channel control.

I have Native off and the only display I use is 1080. I’ve tried more than once to see if I can tell the difference playing with Native On 480/720/1080 options and living with the delay in channel changing… it wasn’t worth the effort.

Valid arguments. It's a personal choice...and it's good that we have the choice.

I find 480i material looks better when scaled by the TV rather than the HR20...and that material needs all the help it can get ;)

Also, the "grey pillar" mode isn't working properly when trying to watch in 4:3 mode via the HR20 (extraneous thin black bars) -- don't like that on my plasmas.

In general, there isn't a huge difference, the HR20 scaler does a pretty good job...and channel changes are indeed much slower w/ native.

[kaminsco]

I too have seen many debates and personal observations between 720p and 1080i and it is very subjective to which is better. Below is article from CNet on a test they did for the difference between the resultions.

As mentioned above, I keep mine in native on, because it looks better to me, which could be subjective. I also think the color blue is the best color in the world. Is it?

Furthermore, yes, channel changing is slow with native on, but, I still find it much quicker that than hitting and cycling through the format button. I would miss more viewing leaving the native off and cycling throught the resultion formats.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6661274-1.html

[tstarn]

I have a Hitachi Ultravision 1080i native plasma (at least that's how it is marketed, I know there is an argument that it's not true 1080i, but it's close from what I read on AVS Forum). I use 1080i on the HR20, and turn native off. Guess that means everything is upscaled to 1080i? If I use native, the stretch modes on the TV are limited to two settings, but if I turn native off, I get 4 stretch settings (16 x 9 zoom, 4:3 expanded, 16 x 9 Standard 1 and 16 x 9 Standard 2, the last one completely eliminates overscan on HD sources.

Anyway, using this setup seems to give me more flexibility and the letterboxing is all gray (none of the thin black lines inside the gray). Oddly, when I tried using native, the think black bars do appear inside the letterbox bars, which is gray. Does this all make sense?

If I am using "off" for display (and the rez is set to 1080i) is the HR20 doing the scaling? And if so, that seems to provide better functionality for using the aspect ration options. Plus, the picture looks pretty good to my eyes, and not really any different from HD sources (all I seem to watch these days if I can). On SD sources, the 1080i/off combo seems fine, while the Native on mode resulted in way too much overscan/zoom on anything but 4:3.

[gusmahler]

Furthermore, yes, channel changing is slow with native on, but, I still find it much quicker that than hitting and cycling through the format button. I would miss more viewing leaving the native off and cycling throught the resultion formats.


But you don't need to switch formats if you're just channel surfing. I'll sometimes go through the HD channels looking for something to watch. So I'll only watch the show for a few minutes before switching channels. In that case, does it really matter if you set is playing in the correct resolution? When I find something I want to watch, I switch to the correct format. E.g., this past Sunday, I made sure to switch from 720p to 1080i when I switched from the NFC championship to the AFC championship. I switched back to 720p because I knew I'd be watching 24 on Monday. After 24, I switched to 1080i because I won't be watching any 720p until the next episode of 24.

[bwaldron]

I have a Hitachi Ultravision 1080i native plasma (at least that's how it is marketed, I know there is an argument that it's not true 1080i, but it's close from what I read on AVS Forum). I use 1080i on the HR20, and turn native off. Guess that means everything is upscaled to 1080i? If I use native, the stretch modes on the TV are limited to two settings, but if I turn native off, I get 4 stretch settings (16 x 9 zoom, 4:3 expanded, 16 x 9 Standard 1 and 16 x 9 Standard 2, the last one completely eliminates overscan on HD sources.

Anyway, using this setup seems to give me more flexibility and the letterboxing is all gray (none of the thin black lines inside the gray). Oddly, when I tried using native, the think black bars do appear inside the letterbox bars, which is gray. Does this all make sense?

If I am using "off" for display (and the rez is set to 1080i) is the HR20 doing the scaling? And if so, that seems to provide better functionality for using the aspect ration options. Plus, the picture looks pretty good to my eyes, and not really any different from HD sources (all I seem to watch these days if I can). On SD sources, the 1080i/off combo seems fine, while the Native on mode resulted in way too much overscan/zoom on anything but 4:3.

Sounds like you're set up the best way for you. Yeah, setting to 1080i w/ native off means that the HR20 is doing all the scaling and/or interlacing. But it does a good job of it, so you're unlikely to see an visible difference between it and the TV doing the scaling.

Funny that you don't get the "black bars w/ grey pillars" when you're running the box in 1080i. That's exactly where I do get them. If I didn't, I'd may not bother running in native mode.

My wife runs her plasma/HR20 combo with the same settings as you do...she never runs anything 4:3, so the black bar issue doesn't affect her at all, and she's happy with the picture in all modes and with the faster channel changing.

[veryoldschool]

My wife..... and she's happy.
May the force be with you...[all]

[2tonedug]

I've had native off for a couple months now. But after following this thread the past couple of days i decided to turn native on and let my tv do the work. Channel changing is a lot slower. Another thing that i noticed is that the guide changes size and crispness with native on. The guide is crisp and clear when in 480 but in 1080 it gets bigger and looses sharpness. Is this normal?

[veryoldschool]

The problem I have with Native mode is that it doesn't always know what the correct mode should be. Sometimes when I go to NBC, it is in 720p mode. Sometimes, it is in 1080i mode. The correct mode is 1080i, so I have no idea why it doesn't know this.
Dumb question: How do you know it's not set to the correct resolution?
The system doesn't display what it is outputting correctly [all of the time].
What I mean is: when I change channels the HR-20 can say 720P, on a 1080i channel, but when I look at the TV, it always tells me the correct format is being input.
With all of the "fun" we're having this is minor [to me], but not correct.

[veryoldschool]

The guide is crisp and clear when in 480 but in 1080 it gets bigger and looses sharpness. Is this normal?
I have the opposite: if I'm tuned to a SD channel the guide doesn't look as good as when I'm tuned to an HD channel. I think the reason is when I'm on SD, the guide is in 480, & when I'm on 1080i/720P, the guide is in that resolution [native on].

[absolutbob]

I have the opposite: if I'm tuned to a SD channel the guide doesn't look as good as when I'm tuned to an HD channel. I think the reason is when I'm on SD, the guide is in 480, & when I'm on 1080i/720P, the guide is in that resolution [native on].

Agreed. SD menu looks worse than HD menus on my 1080p Mitsubishi DLP.

[ITrot]

I have a Sammy DLP with no control on the TV for native... I have no idea what is native to the TV... I know it supports 720p and 1080i... but don't know which is native... how can I find out?

[veryoldschool]

I have a Sammy DLP with no control on the TV for native... I have no idea what is native to the TV... I know it supports 720p and 1080i... but don't know which is native... how can I find out?
Native is in the HR-20 setup. I think it's under resolution. Native isn't on the TV.

[dallascontractor]

Native is the resolution that is being sent by Sat or OTA that it is being broadcast in. So in native you TV would adjust for differ in broadcast and TV.
I let TV do ajusting , so I leave it on Native