If I wanted to archive my VHS to DVD what would I need...

[gcutler]

I guess there are 2 ways to go

1) Entertainment unit device

2) PC Component device.

If I wanted to go PC component device, I assume I would need

a) DVD-R/DVD-RW drive

b) A video capture device (if not already on Video Card)

c) DVD authoring software (not all created equal, so junky SW sometimes comes on good drive).

I had a Belkin Videobus I which only gives me 352x288 and does the audio thruo the sound board, so that would not do the job.

Are there any good USB based devices that will do full screen recording from VHS Analog imput so as to be converted DVD?

It looks like to me that best option right now is the Entertainment Center type units?

[Mike123abc]

I use the dazzle hollywood bridge. It is a firewire device, but it comes with a firewire card for the pc (make sure you get PC version, mac version does not include the card). It is pretty easy to use. It uses the same file format as a DV camcorder uses. Very handy because it also has a pass through firewire port on it that you can hook up your DV camcorder to without having to scrounge around under the desk for the firewire port.

I bought a Pioneer A03 drive quite a while ago (A04 is current model), it came with authoring software. Probably any drive would come with authoring software.

[gcutler]

Thanks for the info...

WHen taking the analog signal off the VCR thru the
"Dazzle Hollywood Bridge" was it easy to specify to make the size and quality destined for a DVD burner.

I have a 40GB drive of which I have a full 20GB partition I can devote to creating the files and burning. How large are the files that you created ? Is 20GB GB enough? I don't plan on keeping the files lying around after burning. I'm assuming since a DVD holds 4.7GB that should be enough?

It dosen't look like PC the package includes the Firewire card anymore?

[gcutler]

I understand there are new drives that support DVD+R as well as DVD-R. What is the difference, is it worthwhile to wait for a DVD+R. I see DVD+RW and DVD-RW, are these standards any different or is that a spelling error by some sellers

[Mike123abc]

The Dazzle box captures at 740x480 which is the same format that DVDs are recorded. So, it is perfect for it. Also, you probably want to be running windowsXP because the capture files are around 15MB per hour of video, and you need large file system support like NTFS. A 2 hour video needs about 50GB to make a DVD. You need the 30GB for the uncompressed capture, 5 GB for the DVD image, 5GB for the MPEG-2 compressed file, and a few other GB for temporary authoring files. I ended up getting an 80GB drive that I formated with NTFS just to do DVD work.

Also windowsXP media player can handle files over 4GB, previous versions did not (95 was 2GB, 98 was 4GB).

I was at Best Buy a couple weeks ago and saw it include the fire wire card, they have an unmarked white box attached to the box the Dazzle comes in with the card in it. It could be a Best Buy thing. It saves $50 that the card would cost.

[Mike123abc]

The different standards -RW/-R and +RW/+R are really not too important. Each camp claims theirs is better, but many tests have shown about the same compatibility with players. The newer the player the more likely it will be able to play any of the disks.

+R/-R are the most compatible. -RW/+RW work in most new players. I have found that using name brand media makes a difference. It is not as exact as CDs are at this time (remember when they first came out they had a lot of compatibily problems with CD players).

Which ever standard you choose you will just have to be sure to buy the same disks (i.e. -RW/R will not work in +RW/R). This is for recording only. You can play a - in a + drive and vice versa.

I chose -RW/-R for a couple reasons. +RW/R was very new when I bought my recorder. I also have Pioneer DVD players and it was a Pioneer recorder (A03), pioneer players play -RW/-R very well.

There is supposed to be a new sony drive out, or coming out, that will record on either media.

If you have old DVD players (before 2001) you will have some compatibility problems. I find if I limit my recordings to less than 4GB (out of the 4.7) I make the most compatible disks (this is because the last 20% of the disk is the hardest for the player to read).

[gcutler]

I have a very old RCA DVD player that dosen't like to play anything (so if it works on that it will work on anything). I also have a Sony (560? I think) that plays just about everything.

Well ordered all the stuff.

Thru buy.com got the
Got the Dazzle Hollywood for PC for $244
Got a Firewire card for $32
Got the OEM version of the Pioneer A04 from CenDyne for $297
Bought a 80GB drive (to add to existing 40GB drive)

The machine (2.0GHz, 640MB Ram) came with XP Home , I guess I will reinstall it (I was using Linux and Win2000 Adv server) I will probably use NTFS across on both drives.

Most of the DVD-R media say General Data "Not for Authoring". I assume that means not authoring a playable DVD-R but for like PC data and such. Where do you find "Authorable" DVD-Rs or do you use DVD-RW media??? Bought Maxell and TDK brand 10 packs (one of DVD-R and one of DVD-RW)

[Mike123abc]

DVD for General is what you want. Authoring drives are for "professional" use. Essentially to work around the entire copyright issue, DVD for general has the disk encryption information permanently stamped on the disk. This track controls copy protection, it is stamped that the disk is not encrypted.

This keeps you from making a bit for bit copy of a Hollywood disk, because the hollywood disk is encrypted and the DVD for general has the decryption section permanently stamped not to allow decryption and region control.

Authoring drives run about 3k, and allow you to produce an encrypted disk, but they have a limitation of only 4GB or so data capacity. The general disks go to 4.7 GB.

You want DVD-RW and -R general.

If you ever decide you want to mass produce a disk and you want region control and encryption, you can use the DVD-R and take it to a professional production house and have them reauthor it that way. Many disk copiers will take a DVD-R for reproduction (they used to require a DLT tape), but you will not have the encryption, region control, and copy protection without going to have it reauthored first.

[Mike123abc]

Well on a different note welcome to the world of DVD authoring. Here are some quick and dirty secrets that will probably save you a lot of time:

1. The DVD authoring software you get from the drive make (does not matter which maker) will be a slightly better than demo version. They will have an "upgrade" available to a more powerful version. With the Pioneer drive you probably got a program called DVDit. You probably got DVDit LT and will want to upgrade to SE. There is also PE but you will not really need PE until you get serious.

2. The mpeg encoder that comes with the software will probably not do a good job if you try to put more than about 75 minutes on a disk. http://www.tmpgenc.net/ is a link to a very low cost (I think it is free for 30 days then $50). This is an extreamly powerful encoder (in fact I do not know of an encoder that really does more or better), but it takes forever to work. It can take 48 hours to do a 2hour video if you try to maximize picture quality, there are faster modes. Remember the hollywood takes 6 weeks to do a movie (they have people look at each frame and adjust by hand if needed (tmpengc will allow you to do that if you really wanted to)).

3. it is an enormous time sink. If you are just doing VCR quality you will probably not have to worry about #2 very much. You can put a 2 hour VCR tape on a DVD without much problem using the software that comes with it. This is because the VCR tape is low resolution to start with. But you will have to worry about how the disk works. i.e. if you want to have menus, scene selections, you are responsible to put it all together, and link what you want the next, back, menu, buttons do. You have tremendous flexibility and I would definitely use RW disks for a while until you get it just like you want it before doing -R. I always test a disk as much as possible, testing the buttons at each menu and menu selection.

[gcutler]

I figure if I want to archive my tapes, I would want to use chapters and Play all, but not that much. I guess first priority is get them off the VHS tapes and then later on make them "Presentable".

How long to master a 2Hr Video tape to DVD with no menus, just start and play. Tape has already started to lose sharpness due to age of the tape?

Obviously 2 hours to run thru the playing of the data?...

[Mike123abc]

If you are using DVDit it will probably take:

1. 2 hours to play the tape and send it to disk

2. If you know what you are doing (after a bit of practice) it will take just seconds to make a dvd if you do not want any menus. You just have to drag and drop the AVI file on to the firstplay box (makes it autoplay when inserted) and presto you are done.

3. MPEG-2 encode -- this step depends on your CPU, a 1.9GHZ P4 will do about real time encoding with DVDit. So, about 2 hours for a 2 hour video. Seems like they sped up the encoder so maybe less than 90 minutes.

4. DVD image creation (it builds the DVD image on hard disk first) about 20-30 minutes

5. Burning the disk about an hour. (DVD-RW is 1 hour, DVD-R is recorded 2x so as little as 30 minutes) depends on your system.

So a total of about 6 hours if all goes well.

[gcutler]

A friend said I will never been seen again at 6 hours per tape :D

Well I installed XP Home back on my P4/2GHz. Applying all the patches. So I should be ready for when the hardware arrives late this week or early next week.

[Mike123abc]

Well the best part about most of the process is that it is pretty automatic. You start the transfer from tape to disk, come back 2 hours later.

Same thing with DVDit, once you click on the make disk it MPEG-2s it, builds the disk image and writes it out without you needing to be there.

Errors usually occur in the fist few minutes, so stick around a bit before leaving it to go.

[Ryan]

Hey, let us know how it goes when you get up and running. I've been thinking about doing the same thing, and my PC already has firewire, so I think the dazzle might be the way to go.

Thanks!

Ryan

[gcutler]

With Firewire only costing $30 for a PCI card for price of entry if you don't have it, that shouldn't be the limiting factor.

At work today I saw one of the Web design people with the Dazzle Hollywood. I asked him if it was any good he said for the 320x240 web site stuff, it was probably overkill, but he said any time he used it it worked great, and he figured that it would work well full screen from the messing around he did with it.

I'll let you know how it goes. Of course the DVD drive won't arrive till mid Next week, It looks like tomorrow the blank DVDs arive, the day after the Dazzle, the day after than the Firewire and the day after than (weekend) the DVD. I think I saved about $100 going internet, but it might have been nicer to walk out of a CompUSA with everything in hand :D

[Lyle_JP]

Does anyone have experience capturing analog video with an ATI All-In-Wonder Raedon card (either 7500 or 8500)? How does this compare to the Dazzle Hollywood card?

-Lyle J.P.

[gcutler]

No experience, but from the web site (8500)

"Capture still images and analog video in MPEG-2 format at resolutions up to 720x480 and 30 frames-per-second"

That seems that the specs would allow it do the same job as the Dazzle Hollywood. But of course specs and reality may differ :)

[Mike123abc]

The video that the Dazzle box captures is not compressed very much (it is turned into DV format, it is a bit compressed color wise 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 I think. MPEG-2 is 4:2:0).

If the ATI is compressing to MPEG-2 that is quite a bit of compression. I prefer software compression to hardware compression because you can play with the parameters much easier.

When I make a DVD and I want it done quick I use the Ligos MPEG encoder, if I want ultra high quality I use the Tmpengc compresser (takes like 8x longer than the ligos). I use variable bit rate encodiing. Tmpengc does an exhaustive search for motion vectors to get the max compression, that is why it takes so long. Hardware compressors can only hold so many frames in memory to look for motion vectors. Now the ones that hollywood use do a great job, but they cost 100k+.

[gcutler]

Well Dazzle showed up today. So now I have Firewire card and Dazzle (but no media or DVD-RW drive) I've been tinkering with recording stuff. The SW does VCD, so I guess I could record the tapes to file, and then just practice with VCD. My Sony DVD player supposedly plays VCD, so that might be interesting.

[Mike123abc]

Well now you can have fun playing with recoding and editing. Windows has a basic movie editing program (windows movie maker, comes with XP) that you can cut and paste around clips and write out a new avi file.

I use the windows movie maker first on all my DV camera loads because it will go through the video and read the timecode that is on each frame and make separate clips for each time the camera is record/paused.

I use Adobe Premiere for complex editing (not needed for just VCR to DVD). You can do all sorts of titles and scene change transitions. It does "near linear editing". With the clips separated out by the windows program it is easier to make all the cuts with premiere.

[gcutler]

Right now I'm Rendering the 1 hour image in to MPEG-1 VCD NTSC. So that is 1 hour to Read off tape, and 1 hour to render down to VCD. Will I need to render to MPEG-2 when I Do the DVD. My only mistake was breaking up the Tape to DV AVI into 700MB blocks. I just randomly changed that setting for no reason, put it back as soon as I realized what I had done (No big deal, I guess I can put the great PQ files onto 15 CDs to watch it in perfect DV) :D

[Mike123abc]

I always read it into a huge file (20-30GB range) when bringing in off of tape. It is actually easier to work it that way. Everything in XP can read this size of a file without problem. I have never made a VCD, you will have to let me know what the PQ is when you are done.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Mike123abc
I always read it into a huge file (20-30GB range) when bringing in off of tape. It is actually easier to work it that way. Everything in XP can read this size of a file without problem.

Learned that the hard way :D

Looks like my Sony is not a very friendly personal publishing DVD player, it does not play MP3s, CD-R, CD-RW (specifically says so manual). Dosen't say anything about DVD-R or RW, but assumtions are not good. I wonder if that unit might be passed down the heap to a friend for $50 to be replaced by a $100 unit that guarantees all the playing.

I have never made a VCD, you will have to let me know what the PQ is when you are done.


MPEG I - VCD NTSC records 30 frames a second at 1/2 the resolution that MPEG2 DV. So just imagine watching your DVD with 1/2 the resolution but at full screen (just like watching any internet image at 200% approriate screen size.) It is totally watchable, and you would get alot out of it (especially fitting on 1 CD-R) but those who want really great PQ like a DVD, they would look at it and just shake their heads (not understanding why).

But you still need the DVD SW to play it. I put it in the regular drive and it just sat there, inspection showed no executable or autorun. But when I started the DVD SW, it said VIdeo CD and played.

[gcutler]

http://www.apple.com/dvd/compatibility/

As good a place as any to tell me my Sony S560D WILL play DVD-R media. :D

[Mike123abc]

I found every player I tried would play DVD-R, but DVD-RW was not so lucky. DVD-R is very compatible for the first 80% of the disc. Most of the problems is in the outer 20% of disc, older players have trouble going to the outer rim.

[gcutler]

Well got the burner, already built up my first project. Will give it a try.

I now have 4 DVD composing SW.

The one that came with Dazzle "DVD Complete"
The one that came with the Drive "MyDVD"
The one that came with the Fireware "Ulead Video Studio"
The one that comes with XP, "Windows Movie Maker"

DVD Complete looks easy to use, but which one is probably best for someone who wants to have some nice customs stuff, but probably won't spent alot of time making menus, etc.

[Mike123abc]

MyDVD from Sonic can be upgraded to DVDit, a much more powerful program.

Another issue you will run into eventually, if you try to put a lot on one DVD, is audio encoding. DVDs made by inexpensive programs use PCM audio. It is the same as found on CDs. It uses 1.5mbit/sec. Dolby digital by default does 384kbit/sec. This gives you 1.1 Mbit/sec to give to MPEG to cut down on artifacts. Programs that do Dolby Digital are $700-$1500.

I use a program called ReelDVD by Sonic to make DVDs. It does Dolby Digital encoding.

[cnsf]

Mike123,

What other programs will encode DD and capture DD?

I have LDs with DD and would love to get them onto a DVD to make my life (and storage issues) a million times easier.

What do you suggest from capture hardware to encoding software and hardware?

Is there any way to do it with quality on a prosumer budget?

[Mike123abc]

The laser disk is a tough problem. There are 2-3 possible sound tracks. Analog, PCM, and AC-3. The AC-3 is FM modulated I believe, not directly readable in digital form.

Encoding is easy if you can get the data to the disk. I use ReelDVD (about $1k), but you can probably get DVDit PE for $500 with upgrade from freebie program you get with a DVD burner. Note that both of these encode DD 2.0, not 5.1. They will take a 5.1 if you get an encoder for it and put it on the DVD for you.

I have a large LD collection. Only way I can see to transfer is using something like the Dazzle box discussed above for the video (and stereo audio), but I do not have anything to transfer the AC-3. My stereo system's reciever (Proceed AVP) will take the AC-3 FM modulated output from my LD player and do the surround sound for it, I do not have a way of getting the separate tracks in anything but stereo.

Perhaps someone else with experience with transfering Digital tracks from LD could answer it.

[gcutler]

Well my old RCA (even though listings said it would work) will not play the DVD-R. It is a 1st generation and has always had problems playing DVDs. I guess I can sell it for $25. Or use it as a door stop :D. But the Sony was the important one, so I'm bascially happy with the solution. I guess I can give the RCA to a friend, I guess all the problems with it are better than NO-DVD at all?

[Mike123abc]

DVD players are under $60 now. Even fancy ones are under $200.

[gcutler]

It still makes me a little pis*ed that I spent over $300 for that piece of junk RCA that wouldn't play many formats. Such for the Early Adopter (and it isn't even over 4 years old) :D

[Mark Lamutt]

Isn't that just the way of everything, though? Same problem with my HDTV - bought last year, but no DVI inputs, so I may be out of luck in a couple of years...oh well...

[gcutler]

I always go with the model that there will be use of the product for up to 5 years. But with the advances in tech (Inability to play MP3, inability to play CD-R based CD-Music CDs, etc, etc) and the problems running many DVD formats, this product became a liability after 1 year.

[gcutler]

Another Question. One of my video tapes is 2:20 min long. Using the default settings I've only been able to record 2 hours. Is there anything I can do to the setting to fit it all in? I guess I can just put out a Part-2 DVD (I have another 70 minute tape that I can throw on the DVD to make it not a waste.)



A friend was looking at a similar setup, but the Dazzle Hollywood might be more than what they need.

DVD CREATION STATION 200 USB VIDEO CAPTURE/MEDIA READER for low $200 (but USB not Firewire)

I also saw the Station 100 for High $100.

Any Pros or cons to using one of these over the Hollywood?

[Mike123abc]

The authoring products I have worked with (unfortunately I do not have experience with the ones you listed having) have the ability to turn down the bit rate to recorde more than 2 hours on a DVD. Look around for the option.

They probably have the default bit rate at 5mbit/sec. DVD has 4,700,000 bytes on it.

5(mbit)*7200(seconds)/8(bits in byte) = 4,500,000 bytes

This leaves 200k for some overhead that all disks have (even with no menus).

So, a bit rate of about 4.28mbit/sec would squeeze it on there.

You just need to find that option. I have had to play with it some since it is not an exact science with most programs because of the control overhead.

-----

On the video capture via USB, it would have to be USB 2.0, and even then I would be cautious as to whether it does true DVD/DV 720x480 resolution. The raw video feed with no overhead is 18.5mbit/sec.

720x480x16x30/9
16 is the approximate 4:2:2 color bits
30 is frames per second
9 is the approximate compression of DV's MJPEG

USB 1.0 did not have a chance with this data rate. Most of the USB did 320x240 or 1/4 resolution on capture, so only needed 4.6mbit/sec.

Now that DVD creation station does MPEG-2 compression it probably does 5mbit/sec. The disadvantage of that is that you probably cannot change the bit rate after it is captured, you will have to recapture. Also you are at the mercy of the MPEG-2 encoder for quality.

You also will have trouble getting video editors that work well with MPEG-2.

So, it comes down to the application. If you are just going to be transfering low resolution VHS tapes to DVD without editing it will probably work. If you want to do anything fancier you will run into limitations quickly.

I recently took a VHS tape of Super8 film to convert to DVD. I was able to use extensive video processing to clean it up (used over a week of time on a 2GHZ P4). It would not be possible to do this with that device.

[Tomsoundman]

Good info. here... Any other Video Capture Devices anyone would recomend (or not recomend).

What about thru a USB device or does that just the wrong way to go?
Thanks

[gcutler]

I would go USB 2.0 or Firewire. Keep away from USB 1.1, it can be too slow.

Besides the $250 Dazzle Hollywood DV Bidge with Firewire for $250


There is also the Dazzle Video Creator 150 (USB 2.0) $199

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=298152

It will work on USB 1.1, but get yourself a USB 2.0 adapter card if necessary so you can use it at its fastest.