DLB++

[dsm]

With all the requests for Dual Live Buffers, it occurs to me that the tivo implementation really is not perfect. Also, there is reason to believe that DTV would have legal issues with duplicating that. So I thought maybe we could make a better design suggestion.

Some of my issues with Tivo DLB are:

- roving start of recording (1/2 hour back?) means I need to keep in mind how long it's been since I changed the channel.
- Nuisance when it would say "I need to change the channel to start a recording".
- No control over which live buffer got dropped when I changed a channel. Oops!

My thought was that rather than DLB we propose a lite "Record" option that had similar behavior but is more explicit.

So for example, suppose we have a "Lite-Record" button that when you hit it causes the channel to start recording the current show. The difference here is that it is saving the whole show not just the last 30 minutes. If it is being recorded you can pause it and it remembers that pause location if you change channels. If you change channels and only a "lite-record" is running then the second tuner is used. If both tuners are in use then you have an option to stop the lite-recording. This could be a preference to just drop the lite recording for people who don't want to be prompted. Lite-recordings would always be last on the prioritizer list.

In a way I'm just suggesting we make the current work-around of "recording" the two shows easier to use. This feature is different than tivo because it addresses the three concerns above. Comments or other suggestions?

[Doug Brott]

For me, the whole point of DLB would be that it is automatic meaning that I would not have to do anything, it would just happen. I'm not sure how "lite-recording" is different than normal recording except that it becomes a "delete first" option on the list rather than a "delete last." The shows would still clutter the list and you would still have to actually start it.

My preference would be automatic buffering of both tuners ALL of the time without me thinking about it.

[dallascontractor]

I don't think Lite recording is a good idea. Don't give *D* a idea and not let us have DLB. DLB is the simplest feature without recording. I do do think Tivo has a Trademark on this Technology.

[jaywdetroit]

I'm with Brott on this one. I'd like to see DLB implemented automatically. I like the idea of addressing some of the short comings of the TIVO implementation, but I do not think "Lite record" is the answer.

[jaywdetroit]

I'm with Brott on this one. I'd like to see DLB implemented automatically. I like the idea of addressing some of the short comings of the TIVO implementation, but I do not think "Lite record" is the answer.

That said - Lite record would be an improvement to what we have now - but I'd still be wanting my DLBs.

[SuperTech1]

I'd choose which ever way D* can come up with that doesn't infringe on any patents, improves the performance of the HR20 and adds to the overall stability.
That's not asking too much is it?:;)

[bret4]

My preference would be automatic buffering of both tuners ALL of the time without me thinking about it.

I'm with brott. If it would just record the two last channels you were on or the two last ones that were recording at the same time, that would be nice.

Maybe an option where you could set it to go back to at least one channel of your choice and buffer that channel when it is not being used to record would be good. A defualt channel. That way you could set it for local news and catch up on it in the morning without thinking about tunning to that channel. This would be handy if you were recording something on channels other than say your local news channel. This could be done without two buffers if D* can't make DLB work.

[dsm]

Ok, I get it, but I think when we keep saying we want what Tivo did when we've been told there are legal problems we get what we deserve.

Plus I don't think Tivo had the last word on usability here and I believe it could be improved upon. I know I was bitten many times by losing the live recording if I were to change the channel when something was recording on the second tuner.

-steve

[Tom Robertson]

Is dual live buffers a Tivo Patent? There are many, but which ones...

Edit: and is a court tested Patent? Seems like if someone created a single live buffer that would constitute prior art and two would be unpatentable.
Cheers,
Tom

[Blitz68]

Enough of the stupid DLB threads.

When it and if it can happen it will.

Starting a new thread everyday is getting old.

[SuperTech1]

Enough of the stupid DLB threads.

When it and if it can happen it will.

Starting a new thread everyday is getting old.


One of the things I like about forums is I can choose which threads to read or not read. If the title catches my eye I'll check it out. If I start reading and it's something I'm not interested in or I've read more than enough about I can go read elsewhere.
:)

[jaywdetroit]

Enough of the stupid DLB threads.

When it and if it can happen it will.

Starting a new thread everyday is getting old.

You know what else is getting old? People complaining about DLB threads. Don't read them.

[jaywdetroit]

Ok, I get it, but I think when we keep saying we want what Tivo did when we've been told there are legal problems we get what we deserve.

Plus I don't think Tivo had the last word on usability here and I believe it could be improved upon. I know I was bitten many times by losing the live recording if I were to change the channel when something was recording on the second tuner.

-steve

I try to stay up to date on the DLB threads. I've seen a few people ask the question about whether or not there was a patent, but I haven't seen any claims to there actually being any legal issues with a Dual Live Buffer. Where did you see this?

[macEarl]

Is dual live buffers a Tivo Patent? There are many, but which ones...

Edit: and is a court tested Patent? Seems like if someone created a single live buffer that would constitute prior art and two would be unpatentable.

This thread got the better of me and I've been reading through the 198 patent hits from the USPTO today.

In one of their of buffering patents (sorry, I'm all mashed potatoes from the eyebrows up right now, after Tivo patents plus my regular job, so I'll paraphrase the legalese), they basically state in claim 11 that claim 11 is the same as claim 1 but expanded to include a second buffering mechanism. Interesting as that sounds, this patent didn't seem to apply directly to dual live buffers - I mention it for the lurkers unfamiliar with the intricacies of patents. There's nothing titled DLB, iow.

As far as court tested, I've always noted (via slashdot) TiVo's court activities against other DVRs, but was surprised about some of the stuff they have to stand up.

(this basically for programmers....) They actually have a patent on a circular buffer in software - because they first claimed its application for a DVR/type appliance.

Unbefreakingbelievable. As Kurt would say, Welcome to the Monkey House!

Anyway, I'll slog along as best I can and pass on any useful reference I can - within what I can with time available.

[Wolffpack]

This thread got the better of me and I've been reading through the 198 patent hits from the USPTO today.

In one of their of buffering patents (sorry, I'm all mashed potatoes from the eyebrows up right now, after Tivo patents plus my regular job, so I'll paraphrase the legalese), they basically state in claim 11 that claim 11 is the same as claim 1 but expanded to include a second buffering mechanism. Interesting as that sounds, this patent didn't seem to apply directly to dual live buffers - I mention it for the lurkers unfamiliar with the intricacies of patents. There's nothing titled DLB, iow.

As far as court tested, I've always noted (via slashdot) TiVo's court activities against other DVRs, but was surprised about some of the stuff they have to stand up.

(this basically for programmers....) They actually have a patent on a circular buffer in software - because they first claimed its application for a DVR/type appliance.

Unbefreakingbelievable. As Kurt would say, Welcome to the Monkey House!

Anyway, I'll slog along as best I can and pass on any useful reference I can - within what I can with time available.
You came up with 198 Tivo patents? I only found 29 as in this reference:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=tivo&FIELD1=ASNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt

None of which address dual live buffers.

[MikeW]

You know what else is getting old? People complaining about DLB threads. Don't read them.

Actually, what's getting old is when people complain about the people who complain about the new threads regarding DLB!:p

Seriously...The OP's idea is something I hadn't seen before. If it did record the second tuner on a regular basis and did not clutter the MY VOD, I'd be all for it. The problem would be the handling of going to a second show. Say I had Becker on the second tuner and wanted to go back 15 minutes in the buffer. If the program was over, would it flush the buffer with the new show or would it continue to remember I was watching Becker?

As for patents, I think D* is in the clear with the agreement in place with Tivo. Wasn't there a ===do not sue==== (can't say in quotes 'cause that's not what was said) in the contract extension?

[macEarl]

You came up with 198 Tivo patents? I only found 29 as in this reference:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=tivo&FIELD1=ASNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt

None of which address dual live buffers.

You're right, per usual. I did an open search (below) instead of by Assignee Name. I'm a little fragged at this hour, but at the time, did it because I know little about TiVo's corporate structure and also wanted to see if they showed up as references for related patents.

<ahem> What my fingers neglected to say was that 198 Tivo-related patents occur in a USPTO search.

No. Doesn't work for me, either. :icon_lame Sorry to mislead.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=tivo&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT

[Wolffpack]

As for patents, I think D* is in the clear with the agreement in place with Tivo. Wasn't there a ===do not sue==== (can't say in quotes 'cause that's not what was said) in the contract extension?
IIRC that agreement runs through 2010 after which any patent infringement by DTV could result in a suit by Tivo. Unless, of course, DTV and Tivo came to some patent use agreement.

Just because Tivo may hold a patent on a particular feature doesn't mean it can't be used by any other company. They would just have to pay Tivo a patent usage royalty.

[Wolffpack]

You're right, per usual. I did an open search (below) instead of by Assignee Name. I'm a little fragged at this hour, but at the time, did it because I know little about TiVo's corporate structure and also wanted to see if they showed up as references for related patents.

<ahem> What my fingers neglected to say was that 198 Tivo-related patents occur in a USPTO search.

No. Doesn't work for me, either. :icon_lame Sorry to mislead.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=tivo&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT
I figured I missed something. It happens plenty of times. :grin:

[tonyd79]

Some of my issues with Tivo DLB are:

- roving start of recording (1/2 hour back?) means I need to keep in mind how long it's been since I changed the channel.
- Nuisance when it would say "I need to change the channel to start a recording".
- No control over which live buffer got dropped when I changed a channel. Oops!


1. Huh? I don't understand.

2. Such a nuisance. You do know that the HR20 does that, too? It tells you it has to change the channel on the one you are watching.

3. Not true. It is very much under control. It changes the one you are watching.

[dsm]

1. Huh? I don't understand.

2. Such a nuisance. You do know that the HR20 does that, too? It tells you it has to change the channel on the one you are watching.

3. Not true. It is very much under control. It changes the one you are watching.

These were referring to the Tivo implementation of DLB, not the HR20 since it doesn't have that yet. I'm not sure people are interested at this point, but I'll elaborate anyhow. Interesting stuff on the patent issue, but I think these are flaws that could be improved upon whether or not there is a problem there.

- roving start of recording (1/2 hour back?) means I need to keep in mind how long it's been since I changed the channel.

Basically the tivo "live" buffer goes back about a half hour. If I switch over to another channel and don't go back within a half hour I start to lose part of the show I was caching. The box knows the start and stop time of the show, seems like it should be able to keep it at least from where I switched away.

- Nuisance when it would say "I need to change the channel to start a recording".

I would frequently get these messages about some channel that I parked on for a couple of seconds while surfing. HR20 doesn't do this yet because it doesn't have DLB. Maybe there is a better way.

- No control over which live buffer got dropped when I changed a channel. Oops!

I probably described this one badly because there were multiple usability problems here. When switching channels on Tivo the user has to keep in mind that some other channel may be recording (or remember to look at the lights on the front of the box that may be off to the side somewhere), because if you switch channels and there is a scheduled recording running then you lose your live buffer on the channel you were watching. Even if you had been paused or something and there were some recorded minutes you haven't watched yet. This bit us many times. Another scenario is where you have 2 live buffers in play and you are watching one of them. Then a scheduled recording is about to start and the Tivo would prompt you to either "cancel the scheduled recording" or "stop recording on the other channel". But I would rather stop watching the current channel. Not an option. Also, no option to save the live buffer you are stopping.

steve

[Tom Robertson]

These were referring to the Tivo implementation of DLB, not the HR20 since it doesn't have that yet. I'm not sure people are interested at this point, but I'll elaborate anyhow. Interesting stuff on the patent issue, but I think these are flaws that could be improved upon whether or not there is a problem there.

- roving start of recording (1/2 hour back?) means I need to keep in mind how long it's been since I changed the channel.

Basically the tivo "live" buffer goes back about a half hour. If I switch over to another channel and don't go back within a half hour I start to lose part of the show I was caching. The box knows the start and stop time of the show, seems like it should be able to keep it at least from where I switched away.

- Nuisance when it would say "I need to change the channel to start a recording".

I would frequently get these messages about some channel that I parked on for a couple of seconds while surfing. HR20 doesn't do this yet because it doesn't have DLB. Maybe there is a better way.

- No control over which live buffer got dropped when I changed a channel. Oops!

I probably described this one badly because there were multiple usability problems here. When switching channels on Tivo the user has to keep in mind that some other channel may be recording (or remember to look at the lights on the front of the box that may be off to the side somewhere), because if you switch channels and there is a scheduled recording running then you lose your live buffer on the channel you were watching. Even if you had been paused or something and there were some recorded minutes you haven't watched yet. This bit us many times. Another scenario is where you have 2 live buffers in play and you are watching one of them. Then a scheduled recording is about to start and the Tivo would prompt you to either "cancel the scheduled recording" or "stop recording on the other channel". But I would rather stop watching the current channel. Not an option. Also, no option to save the live buffer you are stopping.

steve

Wow, some interesting concepts. Run down to the patent office and patent #1. Sell it to Tivo for big bucks. (And remember to share a tiny, tiny portion of those big bucks with dbstalk.com. Thank you.)

Now your #2 and #3, in my first thoughts, seem to conflict. Fewer popups, but somehow let you control which tuner to buffer and which to not. Clearly mind-reading would be best, but beyond that, I'm guessing any feature that accomplishes both would be impossible to describe and educate to the users. (I am trying to seriously, but with a bit of humor, consider your options. I am not trying to poke fun at you or the concept.)

Are you thinking that you might "lock" a tuner, then surf away on the other tuner for a moment, and wish the DVR would know that it should record on the "surfing" tuner cuz the other one is "locked"? Am I describing a scenario well enough?

Wouldn't it be easier to make a habit to "record" on the tuner you want locked? Seems like if you lock, you'd have to unlock--a process similar to deleting a recording perhaps?

As I said, interesting toughts,
Tom

[jheda]

ill take any form at this point with pitchers and catchers reporting...:-)

[tonyd79]

These were referring to the Tivo implementation of DLB, not the HR20 since it doesn't have that yet. I'm not sure people are interested at this point, but I'll elaborate anyhow. Interesting stuff on the patent issue, but I think these are flaws that could be improved upon whether or not there is a problem there.

- roving start of recording (1/2 hour back?) means I need to keep in mind how long it's been since I changed the channel.

Basically the tivo "live" buffer goes back about a half hour. If I switch over to another channel and don't go back within a half hour I start to lose part of the show I was caching. The box knows the start and stop time of the show, seems like it should be able to keep it at least from where I switched away.

- Nuisance when it would say "I need to change the channel to start a recording".

I would frequently get these messages about some channel that I parked on for a couple of seconds while surfing. HR20 doesn't do this yet because it doesn't have DLB. Maybe there is a better way.

- No control over which live buffer got dropped when I changed a channel. Oops!

I probably described this one badly because there were multiple usability problems here. When switching channels on Tivo the user has to keep in mind that some other channel may be recording (or remember to look at the lights on the front of the box that may be off to the side somewhere), because if you switch channels and there is a scheduled recording running then you lose your live buffer on the channel you were watching. Even if you had been paused or something and there were some recorded minutes you haven't watched yet. This bit us many times. Another scenario is where you have 2 live buffers in play and you are watching one of them. Then a scheduled recording is about to start and the Tivo would prompt you to either "cancel the scheduled recording" or "stop recording on the other channel". But I would rather stop watching the current channel. Not an option. Also, no option to save the live buffer you are stopping.

steve

Okay, now I undestand, I think.

1. You still need a limit to the buffer. The machine can't tell if you are "watching" something or not. You could ask for them to keep the buffer for the current show on that channel all the time but where do you cut it off? If you say 90 minutes, it still is an issue. But the issue is not the "smartness" of the buffer but the amount of space the buffer has to, well, buffer.

2. The HR20 does it with channels you are watching. If it had DLB, then it would ask you for the second buffer. That is what I meant by it already asks you. If I am watching ESPN and it needs to tune to HBO for Rome, it will ask me if it can change the channel. That is the HR20, not the HR10. The HR10 does the same but unless it needs both buffers, it asks you about the channel you are not watching.

3. The logic is that the machine assumes that you are watching the more important show to you. If you want to keep the other one instead, just say no, change the channel to the station that will record on the buffer you are on then select record of the show. As for manua changing of the channel, it is quite simple. It changes the one you are watching. Unless you change it to the other buffers channel, then the buffers switch. I have never messed this up in several years of dual tuner tivos. The machine I do mess up is the SA8300 on my cable. That makes no sense whatsoever.

So, it comes down to asking for a longer buffer (that is another discussion going on here) and a prompt that asks you which buffer you want to change. Hardly a major change from the Tivo style buffers.