Petition: Go back to TiVo, DirecTV! [Archive]

archervox

02-18-07, 03:29 PM

It is absolutely unacceptable that DirecTV has released a product that is so unsatisfactory and unable to consistently perform the functions it's supposed to perform.

And it's not just programming functions, it's hardware as well. How often do the hard drives fail or stop operating reliably?

The damn thing still doesn't know how to handle an SL for non-network shows. Try to put in an SL for "Rome" or "Monk," and it stops recording them after three or four weeks. Why?

So how is it that other DVR manufacturers have been able to produce units that work so much better? Obviously, this can't be a technological problem -- TiVo and others have successful, reliable products.

DTV has released a unit that is unacceptable. Consumers should not stand for it.

I propose a petition to DTV to go back to TiVo until such time as they make a product that works.

Also, I propose that we send complaints to the Dept. of Consumer Affairs, the FTC, the FCC and the BBB. We should complain to any government agency that has anything to do with DTV.

DTV has released a faulty and unacceptable product. It should be recalled until it works. "Software updates" aren't solving the problem.

Earl Bonovich

02-18-07, 06:33 PM

Do you have some creditable statistics, that show that the hard drive failure level is any higher then any other DVR out there? Or are failing at any rate out of the "norm" for IDE/PATA hard drives?

Or that the hardware level failure rate is at an out of normal failure rate?

As for failures with Series Links, and Guide data... that is software.
If the Guide Data being used was clean, and could be relied on 100% you would see some of the "hacks" that are used by the different types of DVRs out there, to compensate for it.

It just so has it, that what ever the R15/HR20 is doing, works fairly often and for a lot of cases... while there are still some that fail... that is the problem with "compensating".

Since you have thrown TiVo into the argument, have you recently looked at their latest offering? It is not a smoth walk in the park, and their latest "custom" DVR for a vendor has now been in the works for a little under 3 years, and it is still just a rumor if it will be available for public beta in April.

SD and HD TiVos still work 100% based of their original specifications.

Chazb

02-18-07, 06:34 PM

Hr20 has its flaws and some have more trouble than others but my flaws are slight and surely not enough for me to sign a petition.If it gets that bad I will just cancel my service and go elsewhere.

RobertE

02-18-07, 07:06 PM

:beatdeadhorse:

RAD

02-18-07, 07:21 PM

Both my HR20's are fairly trouble free. Yes the occaisional reboot (like maybe once a month in a bad month, besides the boots for the CE software installs). If I remember correctly, bunches of folks were just about upset with the HR10-250 due to the HDMI issues when that box first hit the street and wanted recalls.

The only way I'd consider going back to Tivo based box was if D* let Tivo add all the network based functions that the regular Tivo boxes have.

oldschoolecw

02-18-07, 07:42 PM

I just found this on-line

http://www.petitiononline.com/02142007/petition.html

It's about our HR20's

Supervolcano

02-18-07, 07:57 PM

DTV has released a unit that is unacceptable. Consumers should not stand for it.

I propose a petition to DTV to go back to TiVo until such time as they make a product that works.

DTV has released a faulty and unacceptable product. It should be recalled until it works. "Software updates" aren't solving the problem.
One huge problem with this train of thought exists.

There currently is no Tivo patented DirecTV receiver in production that can decode MPEG-4.

To go back to Tivo would require a "brand new" reciever, which would probably take a year (or probably even longer) to design and get put into mass production.

If they recalled the HR20-700 today, you can forget about recording any mpeg4 signals for the next year or maybe even 2 years!!

No way in hell I'd want to wait that long!!!
The current hardware will have to make do as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't like the equipment, complain to DirecTV and POLITELY ask to be let out of your contract due to insufficient hardware problems that aren't getting fixed as fast as you expect .... AND LEAVE DIRECTV!!!

Chances are very good that if you POLITELY explain the reason why you want to get out of your contract obligation, they will probably let you out of it penalty free. Some people have already reported that they successfully accomplished this.

HDTVsportsfan

02-18-07, 08:01 PM

I just found this on-line

http://www.petitiononline.com/02142007/petition.html

It's about our HR20's

How long has that been up? ANybody know.

Edit: I went back and loked. It may have been up since 2-14-07

44 signatures. That'll scare them.

BillPear

02-18-07, 08:10 PM

:beatdeadhorse:

Agreed! I wouldn't sign it, I love mine:D

archervox

02-18-07, 09:50 PM

Okay. I'll shut up, and the fact that my R-15 dvr doesn't work reliably is just something I'll have to be a good little boy and accept. Meanwhile, I'll pretend that my 3 year old TiVo in the bedroom isn't working right by way of comparison, and everyone in the R-15 board complaining of hard-drive failures should keep it to themselves. The DTV dvr works great! All problems are imaginary!

Sorry, but DTV's dvr is an unacceptably faulty product. Consumers are idiots if they stand for this.

archervox

02-18-07, 09:53 PM

Earl Bonovich

02-18-07, 09:56 PM

Earl Bonovich

02-18-07, 09:57 PM

It should be noted that I am speaking of the R-15. I am using both the R-15 and DTV's old TiVo unit.

I had originally posted this on the R-15 board but it was moved here.

I'm glad that you're happy with the HD unit. Felicitations!

I also am extremely happy with the R15 that I have now owned 16 months.
And I am not alone in that assesment.

(And previously I owned ever flavor of DTivo, and I don't miss a one of them)

archervox

02-18-07, 09:59 PM

If they recalled the HR20-700 today, you can forget about recording any mpeg4 signals for the next year or maybe even 2 years!!

Ahem, I'm speaking of the R-15, not the HD units. I originally posted this on the R-15 board but it was moved here. I am currently using both DTV's R-15 and DTV's older TiVo model. The TiVo works perfectly. DTV's unit barely works. It is an unacceptable product.

As far as leaving DTV, sorry, no can do. Where I live, it's either DTV or rabbit ears. Our building only has a DTV dish and the owners will not allow the installation of new dishes, which would be required if I went to Dish Network.

archervox

02-18-07, 10:02 PM

I also am extremely happy with the R15 that I have now owned 16 months.
And I am not alone in that assesment.

(And previously I owned ever flavor of DTivo, and I don't miss a one of them)

I'm glad you're happy with yours. Not so with my friends who are DTV subscribers, not to mention all the folks posting on the R-15 board.

I have had the unit replaced twice. The software issues alone make this product unacceptable. Series Links not working properly is the biggest issue, so why has it taken a year -- and it's still not fixed -- to try and correct this?

The unit does not reliably perform the functions a dvr is supposed to perform. It is unacceptable.

Bud33

02-18-07, 10:38 PM

, not to mention all the folks posting on the R-15 board.

.

I post on the R-15 boards and have since Jan of 06... To date, I am perfectly happy with both of my R-15's:sure: :grin: :)

wbmccarty

02-18-07, 10:50 PM

It is absolutely unacceptable that DirecTV has released a product that is so unsatisfactory and unable to consistently perform the functions it's supposed to perform.
I disagree with aspects of your analysis and with your proposed remedy. In particular, I believe that the problem with the R-15 is a technological problem, resulting from poor management. However, my own experience with the R-15 and my evaluation of it is similar to yours. I've had a total of three units, none of which has worked properly.

Unfortunately for the future of your proposal, many R-15 users are more or less satisfied, as you can see from responses here. Even accounting for potential postings by DTV employees and paid reviewers (a la the recent Microsoft scandal), a substantial number--perhaps a majority--of R-15 users currently express satisfaction.

I've spent a great deal of time pondering the variability of user experience. I believe that it is largely the result of variation in usage levels and patterns. By reducing my SLs below 10, by using the search function as little as possible, and by recording no programs that air more than once daily, my frequency of problems has been greatly reduced. I remain far from satisfied. But, a consumer in this situation has no good options.

I hope that you're successful in obtaining a DVR that works reasonably well. Whether that's an R-15, a T***, or some other model DVR seems to me relatively unimportant. However, like you, I do wish that DTV would own up to the problems they've imposed on many users and work diligently to correct them. And, if they're unwilling to do so voluntarily, I hope that some coercive force--such as a class-action lawsuit--eventually compels their diligence. From where I sit, they richly deserve it. YMMV, as in some cases it obviously does.

Cheers,

Earl Bonovich

02-18-07, 11:23 PM

I'm glad you're happy with yours. Not so with my friends who are DTV subscribers, not to mention all the folks posting on the R-15 board.

Really? Based on the volumes and pages of posts in the R15 forum, since the latest release?
The volume of posts are droping in that forum...

And IMHO, they will continue to drop when the next software version is released.
Are people just getting bored with posting in that forum?

By comparison to the platform you are suggestiong moving too.... have a fairly high volume of reported issues as well. With at least regards to their latest generation receiver.

Again, if you are not happy with yoru R15... obtain a SA-TiVo they will still work, and will probably work indefinently... until their hard drives fail... which would be of course the R15's fault, as hard drives don't fail unless they are in an R15.

And some of those shows you have spoken of.
Those are some of the shows, that are why the TiVo 28 day rule exists... why... there is not enough guide data to distinquish episodes.

Wolffpack

02-18-07, 11:32 PM

Really? Based on the volumes and pages of posts in the R15 forum, since the latest release?
The volume of posts are droping in that forum...
Let keep everything in context. Volume is down as the last release started rolling out the beginning of December. There's nothing new to talk about. Someone posts a question about a problem and the simple answer is "yep, it's a known bug".

Don't confuse a lower number of posts to a fixed R15.

TigersFanJJ

02-18-07, 11:32 PM

Maybe I've missed something on the R15 boards. I've seen very, very few posts about R15 hard drives that have failed. OTOH, I have seen many posts over at TCF about Dtivo hard drive failures. I've had to replace both a hard drive and a power supply on my Dtivo that I've had for only 1 month longer than my R15, which hasn't had any hardware problems.

As for the software, the R15 isn't perfect, but it isn't bad either. The first run/repeat (still isn't perfect) has greatly improved and seems to get better with almost every new s/w upgrade.

Overall, I like the R15 much better. Really, the only feature of the Dtivo that I like which isn't on the R15 is the dual live buffers. There are several features on the R15 that I like better than the Dtivo.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 12:01 AM

Let keep everything in context. Volume is down as the last release started rolling out the beginning of December. There's nothing new to talk about. Someone posts a question about a problem and the simple answer is "yep, it's a known bug".

Don't confuse a lower number of posts to a fixed R15.

Fair enough....
But given the # of R15's out there... I would still expect some volume...
As the comparison unit (the TiVo) still has posts on it, and their software hasn't changed in a while (referring to the DTivos and SA)

wbmccarty

02-19-07, 12:11 AM

Don't confuse a lower number of posts to a fixed R15.
I have a class of 15 students among whom are quite a few DTV customers. Based on postings to the R-15 forum, I thought that they would most likely have a generally favorable impression of the R-15. I was quite wrong. When I mentioned the model number recently, the whole class groaned aloud. For a moment, I thought they were going to attack me!

Folks tire of problems. And, folks tire of reporting problems. Neither near silence nor even absolute silence demonstrate satisfaction.

I once suspected that the R-15 forum included a disproportionately large number of dissatisfied customers. Based on the experience with my class, I now suspect that the forum includes a disproportionately high number of satisfied customers. My hypothesis is that folks on the forum tend to be more technically astute than average and therefore are better able to work around and minimize the R-15's quirks.

So, contrary to some of the opinions expressed above, I suspect that the run-of-the-mill DTV customer knows precisely what a poor excuse for a DVR the R-15 is. They also know that there's little point in complaining about it....

Cheers,

wbmccarty

02-19-07, 12:18 AM

As for the software, the R15 isn't perfect, but it isn't bad either.
Please, let's not over-generalize. The fact that your experience has been favorable isn't adequate to support your claim in the context of others' (credible) claims of bad experience. Unless you have reason to discount their experience, please don't do so. If you do have reason, let's hear it.

I've done every reasonable thing to coax my R-15 into behaving reasonably, including exchanging it twice. It continues to have obvious software defects that apparently corrupt memory structures and eventually lead to erratic behavior.

Quite a few users work around this problem by performing preventive RBRs. It's hard to argue persuasively that a digital device that requires weekly rebooting is anything other than badly designed, badly implemented, or both. At least, I'm not persuaded by such arguments. And, I'm at least fairly gullible. After all, I own (lease?) an R-15.

Cheers,

dhaakenson

02-19-07, 12:50 AM

DTV has released a unit that is unacceptable. Consumers should not stand for it.

I propose a petition to DTV to go back to TiVo until such time as they make a product that works.

Also, I propose that we send complaints to the Dept. of Consumer Affairs, the FTC, the FCC and the BBB. We should complain to any government agency that has anything to do with DTV.

I agree 100%. The creator of this board recently posted that we should confine our posts to constructive measures to improve the receivers themselves. An expression of desire by the user community for a return to TiVo (something that worked), and more importantly, complaint letters to various agencies, will do more to improve the receivers than 6 months of CE testing and results, in my opinion.

jbrasure

02-19-07, 01:00 AM

I signed the petition. Even better, I cancelled my service recently. When asked why I decided to leave DirecTV, I said the HR20 drove me away. Then they asked if there was anything they could do to win back my business. I told them I would return to DirecTV as soon as they had a new Tivo.

I doubt it will ever happen, but if enough customers do this, then I'm sure it will sink in.

dhaakenson

02-19-07, 01:07 AM

If you don't like the equipment, complain to DirecTV and POLITELY ask to be let out of your contract due to insufficient hardware problems that aren't getting fixed as fast as you expect .... AND LEAVE DIRECTV!!!

Seriously, the "if you don't like it, leave" comments are insipid. There is nothing wrong with the OP's concept that companies selling a product must be held accountable, legally and ethically. And, there is nothing wrong with disgruntled customers urging a company to return to a beloved product that actually worked out of the box.

I'd say, remain a D* customer unless you find the situation so intolerable that you can't take it anymore, and then tear down and rebuild the D* house from within, if needed.

dhaakenson

02-19-07, 01:14 AM

Supervolcano

02-19-07, 01:47 AM

Seriously, the "if you don't like it, leave" comments are insipid. There is nothing wrong with the OP's concept that companies selling a product must be held accountable, legally and ethically. And, there is nothing wrong with disgruntled customers urging a company to return to a beloved product that actually worked out of the box.

I'd say, remain a D* customer unless you find the situation so intolerable that you can't take it anymore, and then tear down and rebuild the D* house from within, if needed.
The comment I made that you quoted is the "bottom line reality" of the situation.

It's waaaay too late for D* to turn back time at this point for all the other reasons I mentioned in my original post, namely the fact it would take another 2 YEARS for a new mpeg4 capable DTivo to be designed and manufactured. By then, all of the HR20's problems will probably be solved.

At this point in time, D* is FORCED into being committed to the HR20 project because it's the only product in the field (and production) that can decode their new mpeg4 signals.

You want this crappy HDLite (like they use for TNT and Discovery) for another 2 years? Because that's what you'd get if they were forced to dumbdown the new mpeg4 signals into mpeg2 to be compatible with all the old equipment.

No, I'm not some DirecTV fanatic that is here just to defend them.
I'm a realist, and this is the reality of the situation.

If you want an old DTivo that won't get high definition, or maybe a HR10-250that won't get any new HD channels, then GO BUY ONE from ebay or wherever. People sell those things left and right. Just don't expect them to get any new channels when the party starts later this year.

Supervolcano

02-19-07, 02:07 AM

Kudos, and thank you. The more customers respond in this manner, the faster D* will offer a new product that will be worthy of your business.
No, the reality is that's not true.
New products take time to design and produce.
The current line of receivers is the ONLY line of receivers in production.

The reality is that participating in the CE BETA program and HELPING DirecTV to debug the current line of receivers is the fastest way to get a stable and reliable product line to the end users.

I might not be "happy" that they need my input to find bugs (well, that's a lie because I am happy since I love debugging things, but that's a whole different topic), but I know this is the "fastest way to get what I so strongly desire" from this satellite provider ... and that is to simply have a reliable DVR ... just like the rest of you end users.

Hindsight is always 20/20.
That's a fact of life, no doubt about it.

If DirecTV knew then what they know now, maybe they wouldn't have left Tivo.

If there was currently an old DTivo that could decode mpeg4, maybe they would go back to Tivo and renew their contract and start sending out that older equipment again, like your asking them to, but the fact is there is no piece of old equipment in the past that can replace the current mpeg4 equipment.

For the company, this is called being a rock in a hard place.

Either become a roaming dog and help the CE program fix the product, or sit back on the porch like an old dog and live with your other options.

Blitz68

02-19-07, 07:54 AM

wassct

02-19-07, 08:11 AM

I like my HR20 maybe even more than my Tivo. They both have positives and minuses. Granted I've only had it for a few weeks but so far I actually like it better. I know many folks have had problems and I can understand the frustration but I remember the Tivo having problems in the beginning also.

wingrider01

02-19-07, 08:23 AM

I like how alot of people complain about the new DVR's and praise the DTivo's.

Uhm. Where were you when the DTivo's came out?

They were not that stable to say the least. :mad:

Were you there when we had to pay $1000.00 for a HD DTivo?

Considering the HR20-700 is ALOT cheaper than the HR10-250 (which you could never get a price discount on) it is not a bad unit and DTV has shown that there are working very feverishly to make the bugs go away and make customers happy.

The HR10 is not stable now - 5th one in 2 years - dropped audio, missed recordings to name a few issues. I cringe when I hear a yell from the Den and the kids show did not record or the SDT just rebooted again. Yes on a good UPS already so it is not a power issue, custom designed and built audio enclosure with more then adequte cooling.

brewer4

02-19-07, 08:27 AM

I love my Tivos but I really like the HR20 and its getting better every week. I would rather D* focus on getting more bugs out and adding new features then working with Tivo again. The relationship does not have a future and right or wrong, D* is making good on its own DVRs. I wont sign the petition.

Lord Vader

02-19-07, 08:52 AM

Do you have some creditable statistics, that show that the hard drive failure level is any higher then any other DVR out there? Or are failing at any rate out of the "norm" for IDE/PATA hard drives?

I can at least tell you this much, Earl: I have three HR10-250s, two Philipps DSR7000s, one Sony T60, and four HDVR2s hooked up. The Sony T60 itself has been operational since October 2001, and most of the HDVRs have been operational since 2002. No hard drive has yet to fail on ANY of these units.

I've got several friends, all of whom have R15s. Every one of the units have had hard drive problems, along with other technological issues. Two of my buddies got so fed up they dumped D* and went to DISH.

Note: I am not dissing the HR20 or R15 in general. I'm a longtime customer and fan of D* itself. However, I find it amazing that those who defend DTIVO units are looked upon with such condescension and scorn by those who endlessly praise units that are less than consistently reliable.

captain_video

02-19-07, 09:03 AM

Considering the HR20-700 is ALOT cheaper than the HR10-250 (which you could never get a price discount on)
Oh really! Funny that I was able to purchase a HR10-250 from DirecTV about a year ago for only $199, or did you forget about the special they were running? Some people got them for even less when you consider the extras DTV threw in with the deal.

I've never owned an R15 nor have I ever had the desire to own one. I've also never owned an HR20, although I was tempted to get one when they first came out (but I got over it fairly quickly). I've owned Tivos in most all configurations since they were first introduced. I've also followed the development of virtually all of the hacks, including Dylan's boot disc during the infancy of learning how to expand a Tivo's recording capacity. The very nature of a Tivo's "hackability" makes it something unique and more desirable than any DVR DTV could ever produce. OTOH, if the hackers are eventually able to crack the HR20's security features and allow us to expand its capabilities then it might be a real winner. The fact that these units are leased rather than owned makes this less likely to occur since most people would be reluctant to screw with something that doesn't belong to them.

I'd bet that the vast majority of stout supporters of the R15 and the HR20 have never owned a Tivo. I'll be the first to admit that the Tivo GUI isn't the best around (I liked the UTV UI but the fact that it cost twice as much to operate as a DTivo plus it was developed by Microsoft quickly soured me on that DVR). I also preferred the ReplayTV for a standalone DVR since it was probably among the easiest to set up and operate at the time.

As to the original topic of this thread, you can whine about the loss of Tivo all you want but all the whining and petitions you can gather aren't going to change a thing. That ship has sailed and has long since disappeared over the horizon. DTV has spent big bucks developing their mpeg4 DVR and isn't about to throw away that investment. The dead horse beating smilie in an earlier post pretty much sums up the whole issue anyway.

You can rest assured that Tivo owners are in the minority when it comes to DTV subscribers. First-time DVR owners that get either the R15 or HR20 probably think it's a great new toy and are perfectly happy with it because they simply don't know any better. They won't even realize that there are problems with it because they have nothing to gauge it by.

Besides, there are far worse things that DTV has been doing over the past few years that make the whole Tivo issue a moot point. That's why I'm dumping them as soon as Verizon gets my FIOS (hopefully) hooked up at the end of the week. I say hopefully because the ground is covered with about three inches of frozen snow and they haven't run the line from the street to my house yet so I may have to wait for a spring thaw before they can get it installed.

RAD

02-19-07, 09:08 AM

I'd bet that the vast majority of stout supporters of the R15 and the HR20 have never owned a Tivo.

I had an R15 and two HR20's and came from a HR10-250 and two SD-DVR40's, I like the HR20, still not that happy with the R15.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 09:14 AM

I can at least tell you this much, Earl: I have three HR10-250s, two Philipps DSR7000s, one Sony T60, and four HDVR2s hooked up. The Sony T60 itself has been operational since October 2001, and most of the HDVRs have been operational since 2002. No hard drive has yet to fail on ANY of these units.

I've got several friends, all of whom have R15s. Every one of the units have had hard drive problems, along with other technological issues. Two of my buddies got so fed up they dumped D* and went to DISH.

Note: I am not dissing the HR20 or R15 in general. I'm a longtime customer and fan of D* itself. However, I find it amazing that those who defend DTIVO units are looked upon with such condescension and scorn by those who endlessly praise units that are less than consistently reliable.

I am glad that your DTiVo's haven't had hard drive failures, but on the flip side... Out of my personal DTivo's, I had to replace hard drives in three of them... and I have replaced no less then a dozen hard drives between friends and families TiVos (both DTivos and SA's) over the years.

The R15's are not doing anything "specific" to cause more hard drive issues, then any other device that uses a hard drive.

As for "preferring" the R15.. I stated from day one, the R15 is not a TiVo, and that it's interface is VERY different. There are going to be those that like it and those that don't, and those that just need time to get over their "patterns" they are used to with the TiVos....

I now have had one running for ~16 months... for the better part of 9 months or so (at least last summer), I have not reset my R15... It hasn't missed a recording, it hasn't locked up... And unless my neighboor isn't telling me, he hasn't had any issues with the two he has.

Why are those that try to "defend" the R15 or the HR20 looked on with "such condescension and scorn by those" who preferr the TiVo platform. I love what the TiVo did to the DVR industry... however, it is not the end-all-be-all.

Except for a few users, if you try posting anything positive over a TCF about the DVR+ series, it is like you pored salt water on an open wound.

You can get 50,000 people on that petition... it isn't going to change the fact that TiVo, Inc is not comming back into the fold, at least not any time in the relative near future.

You can all leave if you want, vote with your dollar... but since the R15's release, membership has increased by around 1,000,000 people. HR20's are still selling out, causing shortages in some areas. The installation base of the R15 is creeping towards exceeding the DTivo, and that is in little more then a year, where the DTiVo base was out for multiple years, before it was stopped.

So, if you feel you have a "legal" case... seriously... contact someone.
Plain and simple: the DVR+ series IS DIRECTV's FUTURE PLATFORM Liberty is most likely not going to change that. There is way to much money and time invested in that. Even if today they try to bring out a new TiVo... have you looked at the feedback on their latest version? You could be looking a year or more after an agreement is reached.

So yes, if you don't like the DVR+ series, pack it up... and check out other providers... Seriously... and that is not a "cruch" or laughable statement. That is just the cold hard facts of the situation.

I am growing less fond of Vonage each and every week, I will be switching my provider in March back to a landline... but I will have to pay $50 to brake my contract. In the same sense that some people argue to DirecTV about switching back to TiVo: "Stop throwing good money after bad".... I say the same to you if you are unhappy with DirecTV. Pay the prorated cancel fee, and vote with your "pocket book".

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 09:19 AM

I'd bet that the vast majority of stout supporters of the R15 and the HR20 have never owned a Tivo.

I am not so sure about that...
But I bet the statement a lot of the stout TiVo supports never had an R15/HR20

bonscott87

02-19-07, 09:19 AM

I'd bet that the vast majority of stout supporters of the R15 and the HR20 have never owned a Tivo.

That would be a bet you would lose. Most people on this forum anyway have had Tivo for a long time. I personally got my first stand alone Tivo back in 2000 right after the "price drop" to $400.

Lord Vader

02-19-07, 09:31 AM

I am growing less fond of Vonage each and every week, I will be switching my provider in March back to a landline... but I will have to pay $50 to brake my contract.

I got Vonage a year ago, Earl and am very pleased with it. It has saved me 50% over my former SBC (now AT&T). Sorry to hear you're having problems with them. Like any other VoIP provider, however, they're only as good as your ISP.

paulman182

02-19-07, 09:44 AM

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 11:19 AM

Considering the HR20-700 is ALOT cheaper than the HR10-250 (which you could never get a price discount on) it is not a bad unit and DTV has shown that there are working very feverishly to make the bugs go away and make customers happy.
A computer today is alot cheaper than it was 2-3 years ago (when the $1,000 HR10 price you quoted was valid) so what's your point? I got a HR10 in December 2005 and July 2006 for free. Right now the oing price for a new HR20 from DTV is $199. On eBay used HR10s are going for $400-$500. Does that make the HR20 better than the HR10 or the HR10 better than the HR20? I sure don't know.

Or are you saying due to the low price point we really should expect much out of the HR20?

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 11:26 AM

The HR10 is not stable now - 5th one in 2 years - dropped audio, missed recordings to name a few issues. I cringe when I hear a yell from the Den and the kids show did not record or the SDT just rebooted again. Yes on a good UPS already so it is not a power issue, custom designed and built audio enclosure with more then adequte cooling.
Have you made any posts asking for help? Other than the DTV data stream problem in December (which effected all DTivo units) the HR10 is a stable platform. As was typical the HD that it was sold with is very prone to failure and that's what causes many problems on specific units. If you haven't asked for help go to the Tivo side and list your problems.

None of my DTivos (SD and HD) are on UPSes and all are cramed in a space with little ventalation. Those were never real big problems for those units. The HR10 however is known for bad HDMI cards and HDs going bad.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 11:33 AM

I am glad that your DTiVo's haven't had hard drive failures, but on the flip side... Out of my personal DTivo's, I had to replace hard drives in three of them... and I have replaced no less then a dozen hard drives between friends and families TiVos (both DTivos and SA's) over the years.
Out of curiosity, are you talking about replacing the stock drives that came with the unit or upgraded drives. The stock drives (all WDs IIRC) were way too small and failed a good deal of the time. The first thing I did to all my DTivos was replace the stock drive with a larger and non-WD drive. Knock wood, none of those have failed.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 11:49 AM

Lord Vader

02-19-07, 11:56 AM

Same here, Wolf. I've got Seagates on all of them, and some for more than 5 years running.

jbrasure

02-19-07, 12:01 PM

It's waaaay too late for D* to turn back time at this point for all the other reasons I mentioned in my original post, namely the fact it would take another 2 YEARS for a new mpeg4 capable DTivo to be designed and manufactured. By then, all of the HR20's problems will probably be solved.

The Series 3 Tivo handles MPEG4, and with all of Tivo's past experience with DirecTV I bet they could get a product to market reasonably fast.

jpl

02-19-07, 12:20 PM

Out of curiosity, are you talking about replacing the stock drives that came with the unit or upgraded drives. The stock drives (all WDs IIRC) were way too small and failed a good deal of the time. The first thing I did to all my DTivos was replace the stock drive with a larger and non-WD drive. Knock wood, none of those have failed.

Wait a sec. Are you saying that you need to upgrade the equipment in order to make TiVo reliable? If so, how can it be claimed that TiVo IS a reliable platform? And how does that figure into the cost? If I'm a standard user that has no knowledge that my DVR has a hard drive, much less where to get a new one and how to replace it, wouldn't this (stock hard drives failing) be considered a defect in the design/implementation of the device? Not trying to pick a fight here, but I'm interested in how the claim can be made that TiVos are more reliable... just not out of the box. Yeah, you can make the claim that operationally a TiVo is better than say the R15 (based on features and reliability of recording, although I'm on record stating that I have no major issues with either R15, and I prefer the features of the R15 overall), but how can it be claimed that the TiVo is reliable given this fact? If the stock drives failed a good deal of the time, then that makes the Tivo unreliable in my book. If I have a top performing car, e.g. - really kicks butt, but I need to change the engine to get it to that point... well then I really can't make the claim that the car, right off the lot, kicks butt. It only does so when I make a significant upgrade, and replace the engine.

Like I said, not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I find the distinction curious. BTW, as you probably know, I too had a TiVo where the hard-drive failed.

Blitz68

02-19-07, 12:51 PM

Oh really! Funny that I was able to purchase a HR10-250 from DirecTV about a year ago for only $199, or did you forget about the special they were running? Some people got them for even less when you consider the extras DTV threw in with the deal.

Well for one the HR20-700 is not even a year old yet. When is shipped it was going for $299.99

The HR10-250 was going for $1000.00 now lets see which is cheaper.

Kavakava

02-19-07, 01:46 PM

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 01:50 PM

Wait a sec. Are you saying that you need to upgrade the equipment in order to make TiVo reliable? If so, how can it be claimed that TiVo IS a reliable platform? And how does that figure into the cost? If I'm a standard user that has no knowledge that my DVR has a hard drive, much less where to get a new one and how to replace it, wouldn't this (stock hard drives failing) be considered a defect in the design/implementation of the device? Not trying to pick a fight here, but I'm interested in how the claim can be made that TiVos are more reliable... just not out of the box. Yeah, you can make the claim that operationally a TiVo is better than say the R15 (based on features and reliability of recording, although I'm on record stating that I have no major issues with either R15, and I prefer the features of the R15 overall), but how can it be claimed that the TiVo is reliable given this fact? If the stock drives failed a good deal of the time, then that makes the Tivo unreliable in my book. If I have a top performing car, e.g. - really kicks butt, but I need to change the engine to get it to that point... well then I really can't make the claim that the car, right off the lot, kicks butt. It only does so when I make a significant upgrade, and replace the engine.

Like I said, not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I find the distinction curious. BTW, as you probably know, I too had a TiVo where the hard-drive failed.
I don't see that question as trying to pick a fight. I must have not made myself clear.

The OEM drives in the DTivo units were not the best in the world, probably just like the R15/HR20 or any other OEM drive. When you address reliability there are many factors.

Hardware: How good are the HDs and the components? HR10s had a bunch of bad HDMI cards in the beginning. HDs were not the best as I mentioned before. HR20s are showing a run of bad tuners and both the R15 and HR20 tend to run too hot (how would the average user know they have to add extra fans or a coolmat so their HR20 can avoid over temp shutdowns?).
Guidedata: Garbage in garbage out.
Software: Given reliable hardware and guide data can the software perform the functions it was designed to perform?

I'm not saying you have to replace the HD in a Tivo for it to be reliable. I'm saying that I chose to because I wanted longer recording time and when I replaced the OEM drives I also chose to go with HDs that were more reliable than the drives DTV selected for these units.

Any CE device will experience reliability problems in each of those categories. But when a device is plagued by software problems as is both the R15 and HR20, the reliability becomes much more of a factor than does a 1 in 100,000 chance of a HD failure or a guide data burp every 6 months. 1 in 100,000 failure or 1 failure in 6 months doesn't compare to missed recordings, RBRs or other problems every day or week which some are reporting.

So given the same calibre of hardware and guide data I stand by the statement that the DTivos are much more reliable than the R15 or HR20 due to the reliability of the DTivo software.

To use your car analogy following my view on this it is we have two cars. One runs fine. Lights work, dash works and brakes work. On the other car sometimes it doesn't start, sometimes the lights don't come on or the gauges don't work and sometimes the brakes don't work. But when all those things are working, other than personal preferences (like a car style or a DVR UI) the two cars operate pretty much the same. But at any time either of those cars can run over a nail in the road and cause a flat tire. It's a risk equal between the two cars. Sure, if you wish you could replace your tires with "run flat" tires and increase the reliability of your car just as you can replace a HD. But just because any car can get a flat that doesn't mean it's less reliable. OTOH car 2 is less reliable due to it's inherent problems.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 01:54 PM

Well for one the HR20-700 is not even a year old yet. When is shipped it was going for $299.99

The HR10-250 was going for $1000.00 now lets see which is cheaper.
Again, you're comparing 2004 (or whenever the HR10 was released) prices to 2006 prices for CE devices. Like comparing apples to jets.

jpl

02-19-07, 01:56 PM

I don't see that question as trying to pick a fight. I must have not made myself clear.

The OEM drives in the DTivo units were not the best in the world, probably just like the R15/HR20 or any other OEM drive. When you address reliability there are many factors.

Hardware: How good are the HDs and the components? HR10s had a bunch of bad HDMI cards in the beginning. HDs were not the best as I mentioned before. HR20s are showing a run of bad tuners and both the R15 and HR20 tend to run too hot (how would the average user know they have to add extra fans or a coolmat so their HR20 can avoid over temp shutdowns?).
Guidedata: Garbage in garbage out.
Software: Given reliable hardware and guide data can the software perform the functions it was designed to perform?

I'm not saying you have to replace the HD in a Tivo for it to be reliable. I'm saying that I chose to because I wanted longer recording time and when I replaced the OEM drives I also chose to go with HDs that were more reliable than the drives DTV selected for these units.

Any CE device will experience reliability problems in each of those categories. But when a device is plagued by software problems as is both the R15 and HR20, the reliability becomes much more of a factor than does a 1 in 100,000 chance of a HD failure or a guide data burp every 6 months. 1 in 100,000 failure or 1 failure in 6 months doesn't compare to missed recordings, RBRs or other problems every day or week which some are reporting.

So given the same calibre of hardware and guide data I stand by the statement that the DTivos are much more reliable than the R15 or HR20 due to the reliability of the DTivo software.

To use your car analogy following my view on this it is we have two cars. One runs fine. Lights work, dash works and brakes work. On the other car sometimes it doesn't start, sometimes the lights don't come on or the gauges don't work and sometimes the brakes don't work. But when all those things are working, other than personal preferences (like a car style or a DVR UI) the two cars operate pretty much the same. But at any time either of those cars can run over a nail in the road and cause a flat tire. It's a risk equal between the two cars. Sure, if you wish you could replace your tires with "run flat" tires and increase the reliability of your car just as you can replace a HD. But just because any car can get a flat that doesn't mean it's less reliable. OTOH car 2 is less reliable due to it's inherent problems.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. I better understand your point.

tstarn

02-19-07, 02:03 PM

While I agree with the sentiment of the petition, I don't believe DTV will do anything about it at all. I think most of the customers with R-15s don't have any idea what is wrong with them, and when they call customer service DTV reps don't even hint that it's a faulty product. They get the same run around, reset, reboot, replace routine and the customer goes about their life none the wiser. Since DTV rolled out the software upgrade there are no less than 5 people at my work who've had to take time off to meet the DTV repair man to troubleshoot their DVRs. Coincidence? I think not.

People who frequent this board are more in touch with what is going on and why it's happening. They find out what they can do about it and go about their merry way. Whether they fix their R-15 or they just give up on them is not known.

I've had two DTivos, one original from DTV and another R-10 I got from BestBuy for 99 bucks. The original stopped working (unknown reason) last August and I regretably went and had DTV send me two R-15 300s. Fortunately I kept the BestBuy R-10, this unit has worked near flawlessly for 3 years, I can't recall ever resetting it and it's never, not once lost a show I wanted it to record.

The two R-15s have been POSs since they came out of the box. The bedroom R-15 performed better than the living room one, probably because it wasn't used for much recording, playback and never any keyword search/recordings. But it still had to be reset at least monthly. The living room R-15 started out needing a reset every month and eventually it got to the point where it would need a reset 2-3 times in an hour. It didn't record some 30% of the time for one reason or another. It would lock up frequently, lose sound, feeze on menus... you all know the symptoms.

In January I gave up on the R-15s and sent them back for replacement receivers - not dvrs. The R-10 continues to work reliably and I'll keep it until it bombs out. I will try to fix whatever may be wrong with it if it does, but it will be a cold day in hell before I invite another R-15 into my home.

Thanks to all those who are doing DTVs beta testing and troubleshooting and taking the time to educate the rest of us.
I realize this is off topic, but the discussion is relevant.

After reading about the R15 issues (and hearing from some friends they were having a hard time with theirs), I bought two "backup" R10s and an older Hughes model (SD Directivo) so we had plenty in stock should the one we used fail. In September, I put the HR20 into the living room, with one R10 as "backup" and my wife's primary DVR. Then put one R10 in the bedroom with an H20 too for HD programming.

Still have two on the shelf of my office, just in case. As long as possible, I will not move to an R15, especially after my HR20 experience (which admittedly has improved, but not acceptable yet).

Quick story. I went to a Christmas party and a friend mentioned he had Directv. He said he is using a Sony HD receiver (no DVR) for his MPEG2 channels, but his Directivo went down, and they sent him a replacement. As soon as I mentioned the R15, he practically had apoplexy, and his wife came long and joined in. It was just weird, after all this time on DBSTalk, a casual conversation about Directv led to a rant by someone else.

Getting back to the thread topic, I empathize with the petition idea, but don't think it's gonna sway anyone in the Directc executive suite right now. In 4-6 months, if the R15/HR20 situation remains in flux (let's hope not), who knows?

bonscott87

02-19-07, 02:14 PM

I got Vonage a year ago, Earl and am very pleased with it. It has saved me 50% over my former SBC (now AT&T). Sorry to hear you're having problems with them. Like any other VoIP provider, however, they're only as good as your ISP.

Yea, strange. I've had Vonage for nearly 4 years now (got it really early on) and nary had a problem. But then I have a solid ISP in Charter (about the only thing they are good at, Internet).

bonscott87

02-19-07, 02:17 PM

Oh really! Funny that I was able to purchase a HR10-250 from DirecTV about a year ago for only $199, or did you forget about the special they were running? Some people got them for even less when you consider the extras DTV threw in with the deal.

Yea well, they were running a fire sale to get rid of them from inventory because they weren't making them anymore. ;)

Armathius

02-19-07, 02:35 PM

Here is a list of issues addressed for the Tivo Series 3 bug fixes. As you can see they are having some serious issues as well... some of them look very very familiar... This isn't to say the Series 3 are worse... just that they are addressing some of the same monsters as D*.

Some of the issues addressed in the S3 8.1.1 software release.
Infinite reboot loop
Unable to play mpeg2 audio
Audio dropouts during guide browsing
Audio dropout and pixelation problem caused by mpeg decoding issues
Channel List selections don't stick
Duplicate channel listings
FF jumps and skips (FIOS specific?)
Very sluggish Now Playing List

oldguy1

02-19-07, 05:48 PM

I think people can complain all they want but they need to change "The" to "My" in the following statements:
"The HR20 is a piece of crap!" "The R15 is a piece of crap!"
because the way they are saying it just doesn't ring true for a lot of us.

I haven't rebooted the HR20 since the last download and can't tell you how long its been since I've had to reboot any of my R15s.

Amen.
Both my HR20's are solid as a rock (so far). And, the SD video is MUCH improved
over the HR10-250.

Got rid of the HR10-250's to go to the hr20-700's and will NOT go back.

Love being able to bring up the guide to see what is on now while watchig a pre-recorded show. Lots of other plus's as well.

lewah33

02-19-07, 05:51 PM

Considering the HR20-700 is ALOT cheaper than the HR10-250 (which you could never get a price discount on) .

Gotta say, you are wrong about the no discount on the HD Tivo. I got a $300 discount from retention. Now to be fair, I got a free HR10 - which was buggy and defeatured compared to my HD Tivo - and which I sent back.

BTW, D* marketing ppl trolling this board - I won't get another HR20 until the new birds are completely up and functioning. I'm holding out as long as I can.

I'd buy an MPEG4 HD TIVO in a hearbeat, and would wait 6 mos after the new MPEG4 birds went up to get one.

jal

02-19-07, 05:53 PM

I definitely think Directv should go back to TIVO. I had nothing but trouble with my R15, which I replaced with a trouble free R10. My two HR20s are plagued with bugs, and the only reliable HD DVR I have is my trusty HR10-250. No matter how many software fixes Directv makes with the HR20, for me, nothing improves. It sure is disappointing.

JLucPicard

02-19-07, 06:01 PM

This may not mean anything to anyone outside of the Upper Midwest, but Verne Gagne used to run a pretty successful pro-wrestling operation in these parts. About the time that Hulk Hogan left and Vince McMahon started laying to waste all the independent wrestling organizations, Verne's company pretty much festered and died. That was what, 20+ years ago?

Up until just a couple of years ago, a friend would always start a conversation whenever we got together wondering if Verne was ever going to get the AWA going again - and he was dead serious thinking it would happen!

All that to say, in my opinion, there's as good a chance of that happening as D* going back to TiVos. And I love mine! I just cannot think of a scenario where that will happen. In this instance, I sure wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I'm afraid that won't happen, though.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 06:22 PM

Amen.
Both my HR20's are solid as a rock (so far). And, the SD video is MUCH improved
over the HR10-250.

Got rid of the HR10-250's to go to the hr20-700's and will NOT go back.

Love being able to bring up the guide to see what is on now while watchig a pre-recorded show. Lots of other plus's as well.
Hey oldguy1, from your statement I've got a few questions. Not meaning to pick on you.

Do you watch/record MPEG4 HD?
Do you watch/record MPEG2 HD?
Do you watch/record OTA HD?
Given those, have you experienced any audio/video dropouts on any of the above sources?

Thanks for anything you can provide.

bonscott87

02-19-07, 06:32 PM

Hey oldguy1, from your statement I've got a few questions. Not meaning to pick on you.

Do you watch/record MPEG4 HD?
Do you watch/record MPEG2 HD?
Do you watch/record OTA HD?
Given those, have you experienced any audio/video dropouts on any of the above sources?

Thanks for anything you can provide.

Not sure if you want other answers but here are mine:

Do you watch/record MPEG4 HD? YES
Do you watch/record MPEG2 HD? YES
Do you watch/record OTA HD? YES
Given those, have you experienced any audio/video dropouts on any of the above sources? None that weren't already there pure OTA (i.e. local channel sucks) and minor audio dropout on Fox OTA during American Idol which actually is a problem with other affiliates for some reason.

HD-holdout

02-19-07, 06:34 PM

The "Tivo" switchout reminds me of what Apple computer did in the late 90's. They had their Apple II series which had stood them well for years and they came out with the Apple II GS (graphics, sound) so I bought one and liked it. At about the same time they were getting their Mac off the ground.

They dropped the IIGS like a rock and left me hanging with a boat anchor.

Remember a few years back D* had an interactive scheme that they also dropped like a rock and those of us with older equipment that like the features such as the Hughes ability to control a VCR (my preference) wont upgrade to the newer stuff just to be able to get their new scheme of interactive.

The point is that D* acts just like Apple did (does), and just maneuvers us over time into their "new" way. Its not really "progress", its more like corporate manipulation.

I'm with one poster here who is not going to change equipment until D* gets the new birds up and debugged. I value the feedback that I have been seeing here for months before I registered. That will go a long way on helping me when to decide to switch equipment.

I think it was a mistake to "maneuver" (manipulate) us away from Tivo, buts thats just my opinion, and to D* it doesn't matter what I think, or anyone else but their corporate decision makers.

thepoloman33

02-19-07, 06:43 PM

Well for one the HR20-700 is not even a year old yet. When is shipped it was going for $299.99

The HR10-250 was going for $1000.00 now lets see which is cheaper.

Blitz - not trying to beat a dead horse, but the price to own both units (at their introduction) was/is essentially the same.

The HR10 was $1000 minus $250 credits that DirecTV was giving out at the time...so about $750.

The HR20 is $799 to own.

I still don't understand the lease fees and why folks are willing to pay them. I was fortunate enough to get an HR20 for $19.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 06:43 PM

What technology company does't act that way?

Look at a recent article on CNet talking about the MAJOR advances in mobile "phone" technology they are seeing at the latest show.

And the reasons why we are not seeing them here... because they are trying hard to stay on their old technology investiments... So because of that, progress is stalled.

wInk failed because not enough people "bought into it".

This is nothing new... technology is moving faster then ever.
Right now it is almost like CARs... the moment you pull it out of the dealer, it has lost 1/3 of it's value. Why? the next model is already being preped to be manufactured.

People have asked why the HR10-250 doesn't have MPEG-4 support, and couldn't be upgraded.

Because it was designed and speced out 3+ years ago.
3 years ago, I'll be the MPEG-4 chipsets that are used in "today's" DVRs would have increased the price of the unit 50%...

They you have hard drives... 3 years ago that 250gb hard drive was very expensive... Now you can get 750gb for about $300 (or less in bulk), and even that is going to drop in the comming months when 1TB is released.

The TV I spent $7,000 on 3 years ago, is a relic when compared to units that cost $3000 today.

"Manipulation"... Hardly... Changes to the direction they wanted to head.. And TiVo did not fit into that plan.

Not the first time, most certainly won't be the last.
For DirecTV, or for any technology based company/product.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 06:44 PM

Blitz - not trying to beat a dead horse, but the price to own both units (at their introduction) was/is essentially the same.

The HR10 was $1000 minus $250 credits that DirecTV was giving out at the time...so about $750.

The HR20 is $799 to own.

I still don't understand the lease fees and why folks are willing to pay them. I was fortunate enough to get an HR20 for $19.

For the first many months, the HR10 was $1k... and higher at times when shortages where there. then the Credits started to come, and the price started to drop.

That $19 deal you got, is not avialable to everyone.

HD-holdout

02-19-07, 06:54 PM

ebockelman

02-19-07, 07:00 PM

TigersFanJJ

02-19-07, 07:09 PM

Please, let's not over-generalize. The fact that your experience has been favorable isn't adequate to support your claim in the context of others' (credible) claims of bad experience. Unless you have reason to discount their experience, please don't do so. If you do have reason, let's hear it.

I've done every reasonable thing to coax my R-15 into behaving reasonably, including exchanging it twice. It continues to have obvious software defects that apparently corrupt memory structures and eventually lead to erratic behavior.

Quite a few users work around this problem by performing preventive RBRs. It's hard to argue persuasively that a digital device that requires weekly rebooting is anything other than badly designed, badly implemented, or both. At least, I'm not persuaded by such arguments. And, I'm at least fairly gullible. After all, I own (lease?) an R-15.

Cheers,

I don't feel I that I over-generalized anything. I merely posted my experience with my R15. OTOH, I will say that those that require a weekly RBR is less than 5% of all R15 users. Probably much less than that. I've only had to do a RBR once in the 15 or 16 months that I've had mine, and there are many others out there (and on these forums) that have had the same experience as I have.

I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for those like yourself that have had so many problems, because I do feel for ya. I just get tired of hearing "Tivo is perfect and the R15 is crap" arguement from some people when myself and many others have had just the opposite experiences.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 07:18 PM

Not sure if you want other answers but here are mine:

Do you watch/record MPEG4 HD? YES
Do you watch/record MPEG2 HD? YES
Do you watch/record OTA HD? YES
Given those, have you experienced any audio/video dropouts on any of the above sources? None that weren't already there pure OTA (i.e. local channel sucks) and minor audio dropout on Fox OTA during American Idol which actually is a problem with other affiliates for some reason.
I'd like answers from everyone!!!! I'm asking because at this point, sometime in the next year, DTV will be turning on more HD and at that point I will need to make a decision.

Personally I cannot accept any audio/video dropouts. Not an option. Which was why, when 6.3a came out for the HR10 and I only had the audio dropouts on OTA FOX channels I reverted to 3.1.5.

Once again, I didn't frame my question properly, DUH. That last little bit should have also asked to specify which of the above you experienced dropouts with. I understand HD in GR. Fought with that for years. To be specific for you Bonscott:
Under which of the above have you experienced audio/video drop outs?
In particular MPEG2 HD?
Also when you state your problems are result of the OTA broadcasts in your area (and I agree GR does have problems) have you actually compared OTA HD recordings to MPEG4 HD recordings and seen the same problems at the same time.

Thanks for bringing that up.

HDTVsportsfan

02-19-07, 07:22 PM

Radio Enginerd

02-19-07, 07:27 PM

Consumers are idiots if they stand for this.

Or consumers don't feel it's a faulty product. I really haven't had any problems with my R-15. I think the GUI is painfully slow in comparrison to my HR-20 and the first run logic seems a bit flawed but I wouldn't necessarily call it a "faulty product".

Maybe flawed, but not faulty. Never owning a Tivo, I can't speak for whether the Tivo is flawed or not from what I've heard, it's not perfect. :)

ebockelman

02-19-07, 07:32 PM

I'm probably giong to regret posting this question but....

Why do you think people here are apologizing for D* and the HR20? Everyone on this board whether they are generally happy and have few problems or have had alot, just about all have admitted to hitting some speed bumps along the way.

I'm not sure why the sentiment is this way, but it seems like any time someone posts that they like their Tivos better, there is a huge wave of "The HR-20 is great! Yes, I had problem XYZ, but it's worked great for me!" or "Tivo had problems in the beginning too!" or even "Hey, there a problems with the Tivo S3 also!" There are so many people willing to overlook the numerous flaws in this unit, because things have gotten marginally better or because Tivo had problems at some point.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 07:34 PM

I don't understand why there are so many apologists for the HR-20. It has serious issues. Many of these are issues we did not see on the Tivo platforms. I never had to reboot my Tivos on a regular basis. The Tivos did not choose to skip recording a program for no reason.

And the worst - my Tivo wouldn't refuse to boot simply because the HDMI cable is plugged in. I've had two HR-20s do that (and they still do). There's no excuse for that. It's one thing to simply not work via the HDMI port. It's entirely different to let an attached device hang the bootup process.

Why do you see us stating how our systems work, and work well... as an apology? Just because we are answer the questions, with answers that you may not want to hear... that makes those people responding "apologists"?

Just because we find the R15 and HR20 to function well for what we want it to do? And that some of actually now that we have had both, prefer the DVR+ series...

The same argument applies here... just because YOUR TiVo never had an issue, doesn't mean "it" did't have issues.

As for the HDMI port on the HR10... Reason why it didn't hang up on the boot process... as for a lot of HR10's... the HDMI port flat out didn't work... ;)
But you must have gotten one of the good ones...

Supervolcano

02-19-07, 07:35 PM

I'd like answers from everyone!!!! I'm asking because at this point, sometime in the next year, DTV will be turning on more HD and at that point I will need to make a decision.
Sincerely, I mean NO OFFENSE in this ... but wouldn't your survey be better suited in it's own thread rather than an "already long" thread where people are currently fighting with each other about the topic of petitioning D* and the government to have the current receivers recalled?

Let's try to keep this thread on topic.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 07:37 PM

I'm not sure why the sentiment is this way, but it seems like any time someone posts that they like their Tivos better, there is a huge wave of "The HR-20 is great! Yes, I had problem XYZ, but it's worked great for me!" or "Tivo had problems in the beginning too!" or even "Hey, there a problems with the Tivo S3 also!" There are so many people willing to overlook the numerous flaws in this unit, because things have gotten marginally better or because Tivo had problems at some point.

Find me a post, where someone has flat just said they simply like their TiVo better... and they where hit by a huge wave... I bet you won't find many.

Usually those statements are made in the context that "They should switch back", or started of "This POS", or something of that nature.

I have ZERO issue with anyone that prefers one system of the other. And I would expect no one else to either... as that is their choice.

HDTVsportsfan

02-19-07, 07:39 PM

I'm not sure why the sentiment is this way, but it seems like any time someone posts that they like their Tivos better, there is a huge wave of "The HR-20 is great! Yes, I had problem XYZ, but it's worked great for me!" or "Tivo had problems in the beginning too!" or even "Hey, there a problems with the Tivo S3 also!" There are so many people willing to overlook the numerous flaws in this unit, because things have gotten marginally better or because Tivo had problems at some point.

Well, I think it's safe to say this is an HR20 forum. As TCF is....well, TIVO centric.
Obviosuly I'm not trying to start a fight. But this issue has just been beat to pulp in the past. There is no more "Beating a dead horse", that horse has been beat so much it's glue.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 07:44 PM

Or consumers don't feel it's a faulty product. I really haven't had any problems with my R-15. I think the GUI is painfully slow in comparrison to my HR-20 and the first run logic seems a bit flawed but I wouldn't necessarily call it a "faulty product".

Maybe flawed, but not faulty. Never owning a Tivo, I can't speak for whether the Tivo is flawed or not from what I've heard, it's not perfect. :)
That really hits the point. We all work with different definitions/expectations. Faulty means one thing to me and another to Radio Enginerd (or maybe the same :D ).

I think there's too many times that we get agitated when another members use of a term in which their definition is different that ours.

I think you really hit one of the problems we have internally in this forum on the head RE.

bonscott87

02-19-07, 07:45 PM

I'd like answers from everyone!!!! I'm asking because at this point, sometime in the next year, DTV will be turning on more HD and at that point I will need to make a decision.

Personally I cannot accept any audio/video dropouts. Not an option. Which was why, when 6.3a came out for the HR10 and I only had the audio dropouts on OTA FOX channels I reverted to 3.1.5.

Once again, I didn't frame my question properly, DUH. That last little bit should have also asked to specify which of the above you experienced dropouts with. I understand HD in GR. Fought with that for years. To be specific for you Bonscott:
Under which of the above have you experienced audio/video drop outs?
In particular MPEG2 HD?
Also when you state your problems are result of the OTA broadcasts in your area (and I agree GR does have problems) have you actually compared OTA HD recordings to MPEG4 HD recordings and seen the same problems at the same time.

Thanks for bringing that up.

Audio dropouts in general. Guess I've lived with them ever since I first got HD about...man about 5 years ago now? Holy cow. Par for the course somewhat. Things are a whole lot better now then they were back then.

Under which of the above have you experienced audio/video drop outs?
In particular MPEG2 HD?
I've never once had a problem with MPEG2 HD delivered via sat (UHD, ESPN, Discovery) other then the odd glitch here or there. Nothing that I didn't see on my old Hughes E-86 HD receiver. Basically perfect....ok....99%.

Also when you state your problems are result of the OTA broadcasts in your area (and I agree GR does have problems) have you actually compared OTA HD recordings to MPEG4 HD recordings and seen the same problems at the same time.
As you know then, our CBS is a big steaming pile. Pure OTA via the Hughes produces several video freezes and audio dropout every hour. Pretty bad but livable. Can't tell you how it looks recorded on the HR20 since it's VHF2 which the HR20 currently can't tune.
The MPEG4 version is horrible as well. All those audio and video glitches wreck havok with the encoders obviously. Virtually unwatchable. But I record anyway and we muddle through. If it's too bad we watch the SD version.

NBC is recorded just fine OTA, no issues. And that station is clean OTA. MPEG4 not available.
ABC always looks fine when I check on it but I don't watch any ABC. MPEG4 looks great.
Fox pure OTA has some audio dropouts, perhaps 2-3 per hour. No biggy. OTA recorded on the HR20 is about the same. American Idol has had more audio dropouts but I have read where that is a problem across the country with other Fox stations. I am going to try it MPEG4 this week but my assumption since OTA has a few audio glitches that the MPEG4 version will see the same.

So basically, I don't see any audio or video dropouts that aren't already causes by issues with the pure OTA signal. No problems at all with any MPEG2 provided by sat. MPEG4 via sat is totally dependent on the OTA signal provided. Garbage in/garbage out.

buist

02-19-07, 07:49 PM

I get a kick out of the Tivo enthusiasts.. I had my first Directivo when they only had 1 tuner enabled (Sony). They later enabled the 2nd tuner, but it wasn't perfect. There have been may issues over the years. For me, the most frustrating was the hardware issues with HDMI.. I had one of my HR10-250's develop a failing HDMI port. If you do a search on HR10-250 HDMI problem, I'll bet you'll find interesting reading.

I did like the fact you could "hack" the Tivos to get more storage. But with the HR20, I just need to plug in an ESata drive - pretty simple compared to working with the Tivos (remember having to install brackets to accommodate the second drive)..

It is common practice to release a product to the public that isn't perfect (yes, I had a dish 921 also). It doesn't make it right, but companies try to be competitive/ aggressive. I think if everyone shows some patience, they will be pleased with the end result.

Honestly, I don't think I can go back to the slower operations on the HR10-250. The time it takes to setup or delete a season pass was excruciating. The HR20 has been very solid for me, even participating in the CE releases (which remind me of the early Tivo days). Right now, the only thing I miss is searching my custom channel list. I think they will fix this, but for now I deal with it..

Tim

lewah33

02-19-07, 08:54 PM

I get a kick out of the Tivo enthusiasts..

Really, because I feel the same way about the HR-20 ppl.

I cannot fathom why anyone would put up with no dlb, the inconsistent ff and rw, missed programs, audio dropouts and not being able to deselect a channel you don't receive. From a software development perspective, I see half of these as glaring A bugs; from a marketing perspective, I see the other 2 as serious feature deficiencies.

Anyway, sorry to jump on you. I've been lurking here significantly more than I've posted in a while, and I'm probably feeding the fire of this tired debate, but I just have to offer my opinion.

And to those that say, "you don't have to stay with D*, you are free to go at any time," I bought the equipment and service years ago to watch Patriots and Red Sox games. Now that the NFL AND the MLB are exclusive, I'm with D* for the foreseable future.

Especially this season, since the rotation looks great, the lineup packs a SERIOUS punch and the kinks in the bullpen will work themselves out! GO SOX!

buist

02-19-07, 09:08 PM

Really, because I feel the same way about the HR-20 ppl.

I cannot fathom why anyone would put up with no dlb, the inconsistent ff and rw, missed programs, audio dropouts and not being able to deselect a channel you don't receive. From a software development perspective, I see half of these as glaring A bugs; from a marketing perspective, I see the other 2 as serious feature deficiencies.

Anyway, sorry to jump on you. I've been lurking here significantly more than I've posted in a while, and I'm probably feeding the fire of this tired debate, but I just have to offer my opinion.

That wasn't jumping on me at all :) You mileage varies from mine.. I haven't had any missed recordings, etc. that you have experienced. I think that the HR20 will improve. I think it has already improved a lot. The dual buffers for me is okay, but not a feature I can't live without. This may put me in the minority, but if I want to bounce back and forth between 2 shows, I'll just record both (and delete afterwards). This is inconvenient, but I can't say that I do this often. For me, the biggest annoyance is the search. But I appreciate the increased performance more than the inconvenience of the searching. Even the HR10-250 search was not perfect (it just needs to be able to search for the '@' symbol to work for me).

Anyway, I agree to disagree. The HR10-250 (and other Tivos) are fine products. IMHO, they are far from perfect as is the HR20. I am very hopeful on Directv's response with the CE releases.. To me, this means they are listening. The improvements may take longer than most would like, but they are happening. I say lets encourage the HR20 developers instead of getting on their case for a less than perfect product..

Tim

ronrico51

02-19-07, 09:23 PM

So no one has ever complained about hard drive failures on the TiVo?

Heck... I know of two companies that have made some very good money selling upgraded and replacement hard drives for the TiVos.

No, your problems are not imaginary...
People do have issues with the unit... just like people have issues with other products.

If you feel that you have exhaused all your other options as a consumer....

I think we can all agree that hard drives fail no matter what kind of dvr you are talking about. However, if we disregard complaints about failed hard drives, which units would have a higher problem rate? I think we all know that answer to that. BTW, try to find a company that makes UPGRADED or any other kind of replacement drive for the D* units.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 09:42 PM

I think we can all agree that hard drives fail no matter what kind of dvr you are talking about. However, if we disregard complaints about failed hard drives, which units would have a higher problem rate? I think we all know that answer to that. BTW, try to find a company that makes UPGRADED or any other kind of replacement drive for the D* units.

Seagate, Western Digital, Hitachi, Samsung.... basically anyone that makes a hard drive.

As at least for the HR20... all you have to do is drop in a blank, unformatted drive (Right out of the box if you want), and you are on your way.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 09:44 PM

Why do you see us stating how our systems work, and work well... as an apology? Just because we are answer the questions, with answers that you may not want to hear... that makes those people responding "apologists"?

Just because we find the R15 and HR20 to function well for what we want it to do? And that some of actually now that we have had both, prefer the DVR+ series...

The same argument applies here... just because YOUR TiVo never had an issue, doesn't mean "it" did't have issues.

As for the HDMI port on the HR10... Reason why it didn't hang up on the boot process... as for a lot of HR10's... the HDMI port flat out didn't work... ;)
But you must have gotten one of the good ones...
To answer your first question, because any time anyone posts any thread that they have problems the ultimate response is "my unit works find" or "I don't have those problems". It happens every time guys. I know you like to talk about us "bad people" in your "safe haven" but the facts remain.

Earl, I give you and.....I have to say it, your D*Fenders a question/challenge.

The next time a newb starts a thread venting and expressing their problems with their HR20, why don't you all limit your responses to "trying to help" responses? By that I mean don't reply "mine works fine" or "why would you want that". I think that whats getting old. If anyone posts anything critical (see I didn't use the "N" word) that thread will get the standard posts from the D*Fenders. beyond that the thread risks the chance of being closed for many, I'm sure, reasonable reasons. Just as this thread has a great chance of being closed or posts deleted which all equals censorship.

I'll ask that the D*Fenders do the following and prove they are unbiased. The next time a negative post comes in you and your crew can respond in a way as to ask for more info or even say "WOW, sorry to hear that" instead of having 10 posts of how great your units work? Do you think that can happen?

The bottom line is that subscribers do have problems. Currently my position is that DBSTalk.com isn't truly promoting an unbiased forum. It's obvious from posts that others agree. I'm going to leave it at that.

HDTVsportsfan

02-19-07, 09:49 PM

I think the only gripe w/ the negative comments is not the negative comments themselves. It's usually what follows, it's the "T" word.
That probably gets the natives fired up more than anything, IMO

And then the thread goes down the crapper.

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 10:00 PM

Sincerely, I mean NO OFFENSE in this ... but wouldn't your survey be better suited in it's own thread rather than an "already long" thread where people are currently fighting with each other about the topic of petitioning D* and the government to have the current receivers recalled?

Let's try to keep this thread on topic.
Yes it would, but I'm growing tied to those that like to ignore stats and facts. And honestly, I'm giving up. Everyone want's to think everything is getting better, so keep drinking that Koolaid folks.

If I posted that question, an honest question I think, in it's own thread the first reply would be "do you have a HR20?" and it would go down hill from there. Been there done that. Ya see, I have some agenda that everyone knows except me.

No offence taken Super!

Edit: Super you are correct, I did send this OT. I apologize.

HDTVsportsfan

02-19-07, 10:02 PM

If I posted that question, an honest question I think, in it's own thread the first reply would be "do you have a HR20?" and it would go down hill from there. Been there done that. Ya see, I have some agenda that everyone knows except me.

I remember that thread.:grin:

buist

02-19-07, 10:02 PM

Seagate, Western Digital, Hitachi, Samsung.... basically anyone that makes a hard drive.

As at least for the HR20... all you have to do is drop in a blank, unformatted drive (Right out of the box if you want), and you are on your way.

I guess this means that the HR20 is already blessed :)

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 10:05 PM

To answer your first question, because any time anyone posts any thread that they have problems the ultimate response is "my unit works find" or "I don't have those problems". It happens every time guys. I know you like to talk about us "bad people" in your "safe haven" but the facts remain.

Earl, I give you and.....I have to say it, your D*Fenders a question/challenge.

The next time a newb starts a thread venting and expressing their problems with their HR20, why don't you all limit your responses to "trying to help" responses? By that I mean don't reply "mine works fine" or "why would you want that". I think that whats getting old. If anyone posts anything critical (see I didn't use the "N" word) that thread will get the standard posts from the D*Fenders. beyond that the thread risks the chance of being closed for many, I'm sure, reasonable reasons. Just as this thread has a great chance of being closed or posts deleted which all equals censorship.

I'll ask that the D*Fenders do the following and prove they are unbiased. The next time a negative post comes in you and your crew can respond in a way as to ask for more info or even say "WOW, sorry to hear that" instead of having 10 posts of how great your units work? Do you think that can happen?

The bottom line is that subscribers do have problems. Currently my position is that DBSTalk.com isn't truly promoting an unbiased forum. It's obvious from posts that others agree. I'm going to leave it at that.

I have no issue with that... especially if that person is actually here looking for help... as actually that is the point of this forum (well at least the Q&A ones).

I have seen both: A Vent turns into someone being helped, as they are willing to accept the help... Others, the Vent turns into a rage, when people suggest things to do.

dhaakenson

02-19-07, 10:17 PM

Earl, I give you and.....I have to say it, your D*Fenders a question/challenge.

The next time a newb starts a thread venting and expressing their problems with their HR20, why don't you all limit your responses to "trying to help" responses? By that I mean don't reply "mine works fine" or "why would you want that". I think that whats getting old.

Man, do I agree with this. I'd toss in blanket statements that "the majority of HR20s are working fine now" and other comments, pro or con, that have absolutely no evidence backing them up.

Tom M

02-19-07, 10:39 PM

Find me a post, where someone has flat just said they simply like their TiVo better... and they where hit by a huge wave... I bet you won't find many.

Usually those statements are made in the context that "They should switch back", or started of "This POS", or something of that nature.

I have ZERO issue with anyone that prefers one system of the other. And I would expect no one else to either... as that is their choice.Coming from the IPG/DVR Service Provider space as a developer and management I have a fairly realistic view and know that D* isn't going to go anywhere unless it's profitable for them to do so. That said, the current HR20 has some serious faults that need to be corrected sooner rather than later. It's also a system that, IMO, pretty much mandates maintaining a backup DVR running in parallel to ensure recordings aren't lost or short - I've had both happen. If I wasn't getting the 4 free months I'd be really ticked off that I have to pay for both units. As it is, I am still paying the $4.99 fees so I may call D* and voice my concern about that.

While I do take advantage of the CE releases I am also aware of the risks in doing so. Some of the errors that slip through lead me to believe that those releases would fall more appropriately into what my organization termed an Engineering Release which meant it had minimal (if any) QA time on it and it certainly didn't fall into the Alpha or Beta category. What D* is doing with the CE releases is similar to what the cable operators do with both their in-house (employees) users and also their "friendlies". Though in both cases the releases under evaluation would be fully QA'd and would have passed System Integration tests w/o any serious faults. Any release that resulted in a box reset or lockup would never see this light of day as far as the "friendlies" or paying user community is considered.

In my opinion, which others are free to either agree or disagree with, the HR20 is definitely not ready to be considered a commercial success. In my case though I'm not willing to convert to Comcast or give up my investment in existing D* equipment so I'm pretty much "stuck" for the time being. Cost to convert to E* was pretty much a wash vs. sticking with the devil I already knew so I'm still here - though not totally happy.

Earl Bonovich

02-19-07, 10:49 PM

Man, do I agree with this. I'd toss in blanket statements that "the majority of HR20s are working fine now" and other comments, pro or con, that have absolutely no evidence backing them up.

Then I throw out there, the opposite... there is no evidence backing up the statement that the majority of HR20's or R15's are failing..

Wolffpack

02-19-07, 10:59 PM

Coming from the IPG/DVR Service Provider space as a developer and management I have a fairly realistic view and know that D* isn't going to go anywhere unless it's profitable for them to do so. That said, the current HR20 has some serious faults that need to be corrected sooner rather than later. It's also a system that, IMO, pretty much mandates maintaining a backup DVR running in parallel to ensure recordings aren't lost or short - I've had both happen. If I wasn't getting the 4 free months I'd be really ticked off that I have to pay for both units. As it is, I am still paying the $4.99 fees so I may call D* and voice my concern about that.

While I do take advantage of the CE releases I am also aware of the risks in doing so. Some of the errors that slip through lead me to believe that those releases would fall more appropriately into what my organization termed an Engineering Release which meant it had minimal (if any) QA time on it and it certainly didn't fall into the Alpha or Beta category. What D* is doing with the CE releases is similar to what the cable operators do with both their in-house (employees) users and also their "friendlies". Though in both cases the releases under evaluation would be fully QA'd and would have passed System Integration tests w/o any serious faults. Any release that resulted in a box reset or lockup would never see this light of day as far as the "friendlies" or paying user community is considered.

In my opinion, which others are free to either agree or disagree with, the HR20 is definitely not ready to be considered a commercial success. In my case though I'm not willing to convert to Comcast or give up my investment in existing D* equipment so I'm pretty much "stuck" for the time being. Cost to convert to E* was pretty much a wash vs. sticking with the devil I already knew so I'm still here - though not totally happy.

I can do nothing but agree with your assessment. Very well put.

tstarn

02-19-07, 11:27 PM

Coming from the IPG/DVR Service Provider space as a developer and management I have a fairly realistic view and know that D* isn't going to go anywhere unless it's profitable for them to do so. That said, the current HR20 has some serious faults that need to be corrected sooner rather than later. It's also a system that, IMO, pretty much mandates maintaining a backup DVR running in parallel to ensure recordings aren't lost or short - I've had both happen. If I wasn't getting the 4 free months I'd be really ticked off that I have to pay for both units. As it is, I am still paying the $4.99 fees so I may call D* and voice my concern about that.

While I do take advantage of the CE releases I am also aware of the risks in doing so. Some of the errors that slip through lead me to believe that those releases would fall more appropriately into what my organization termed an Engineering Release which meant it had minimal (if any) QA time on it and it certainly didn't fall into the Alpha or Beta category. What D* is doing with the CE releases is similar to what the cable operators do with both their in-house (employees) users and also their "friendlies". Though in both cases the releases under evaluation would be fully QA'd and would have passed System Integration tests w/o any serious faults. Any release that resulted in a box reset or lockup would never see this light of day as far as the "friendlies" or paying user community is considered.

In my opinion, which others are free to either agree or disagree with, the HR20 is definitely not ready to be considered a commercial success. In my case though I'm not willing to convert to Comcast or give up my investment in existing D* equipment so I'm pretty much "stuck" for the time being. Cost to convert to E* was pretty much a wash vs. sticking with the devil I already knew so I'm still here - though not totally happy.
Perfectly stated. Nothing to add (and that's unusual).

tstarn

02-19-07, 11:31 PM

Then I throw out there, the opposite... there is no evidence backing up the statement that the majority of HR20's or R15's are failing..

Regarding the HR20, what if it's 60-40 (working perfectly to problematic)? That's not a vast majority, but it's not good. Or what if 60 percent have had at least 1-2 problems since release (I know you have had a couple). Again, not a vast majority. But that's not good, right? A lot of unhappy people in those numbers, and no one says the vast majority are failing. Flawed is more the right word.

Believe me, I wish we knew the real stats, but we can only use anecdotal evidence (downloads, negative/positive reviews, etc.) to try and make a determination. And it's obvious two camps are interpreting their anecdotal evidence in very different ways.

dhaakenson

02-20-07, 01:20 AM

Then I throw out there, the opposite... there is no evidence backing up the statement that the majority of HR20's or R15's are failing..

Fully agree with you. I've never said there is, nor would I support anyone who does, either pro or con. Would you agree to do the same? Would you speak out against a D*Fender who makes a claim not based on fact?

This forum would be well served if pleas for help were met with actual suggestions rather than "mine works", and "no problem here". Or, worse yet, by answering "the vast majority of HR20s are working fine", when no evidence is available to support the claim.

Cerus

02-20-07, 02:25 AM

Also, I propose that we send complaints to the Dept. of Consumer Affairs, the FTC, the FCC and the BBB. We should complain to any government agency that has anything to do with DTV.

Why? Because a perfectly legal business decided to do something they have every right to do? None of those agencies you threw out can do anything to D* in regards to their current business practices. File a complaint with them if you wish, it will be a waste of time. The FCC really has nothing to do with what you are complaining about. They regulate the transmissions, not the devices that receive them. Neither can the FTC do anything since D* is providing the service they advertise (for the most part) whether it's perfect are not, most business aren't.

If you are unhappy with the service D* is providing, then don't subscribe to their service...it's as simple as that.

jpl

02-20-07, 06:48 AM

That wasn't jumping on me at all :) You mileage varies from mine.. I haven't had any missed recordings, etc. that you have experienced. I think that the HR20 will improve. I think it has already improved a lot. The dual buffers for me is okay, but not a feature I can't live without. This may put me in the minority, but if I want to bounce back and forth between 2 shows, I'll just record both (and delete afterwards). This is inconvenient, but I can't say that I do this often. For me, the biggest annoyance is the search. But I appreciate the increased performance more than the inconvenience of the searching. Even the HR10-250 search was not perfect (it just needs to be able to search for the '@' symbol to work for me).

Anyway, I agree to disagree. The HR10-250 (and other Tivos) are fine products. IMHO, they are far from perfect as is the HR20. I am very hopeful on Directv's response with the CE releases.. To me, this means they are listening. The improvements may take longer than most would like, but they are happening. I say lets encourage the HR20 developers instead of getting on their case for a less than perfect product..

Tim

I think you've hit on something crucial. Aside from the major problems folks have, preference for one over the other really depends on what you're looking for. I agree with you - I liked the dlb on my old TiVo, but not having it on my R15 isn't a show-stopper for me (I never used it very often when I had Tivo). For some folks it is. I thought Tivo had an overall better, more consistent, and robust interface on the DVR side of the equation, but I found it horrible on the DirecTV live tv side, and the lack of integration between the two really bothered me. But again, I watch live TV alot. And I tend to like doing things like setting up recordings, and managing my SLs while doing so. And I also like seeing "what else is on" while watching a recorded show in playback. It happens alot for us - just put on, oh, that Good Eats episode in the background while we surf. Again, it comes down to what you're looking for - if you don't watch live tv so much then I can see where someone would prefer the Tivo functionality to the R15/HR20.

Like many I haven't had any major issue with either of my R15s, although it's clear that others have, and my main pet peeve to date is the lack of consistency (setting up consistent functionality is always seen as a no-biggie, but implementing it is difficult, and takes great planning), and the clunkiness of parts of the interface (e.g. just getting to my SLs in the prioritizer takes too many button pushes, in my opinion) while I really love other parts of it (although it drives some nuts, I think that quick, context-sensitive menu, is brilliant, and the fact that I can scroll through the guide in 12-hour increments... again, a very nice touch).

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 06:55 AM

Fully agree with you. I've never said there is, nor would I support anyone who does, either pro or con. Would you agree to do the same? Would you speak out against a D*Fender who makes a claim not based on fact?

This forum would be well served if pleas for help were met with actual suggestions rather than "mine works", and "no problem here". Or, worse yet, by answering "the vast majority of HR20s are working fine", when no evidence is available to support the claim.

I have made that opinion very clear in the past, that I don't want either extreme.

And how did this thread turn into a "pleae help instead of attack"...
Considering the Original Post of this thread, wasn't asking for help, but was pleading to bring TiVo back even it takes Legal Action

jal

02-20-07, 07:08 AM

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 07:14 AM

As I have said before, the bottom line for many of us is that the TIVO HR10-250 performs its primary function--it records HD reliabily. The HR20, for many of us, does not perform its primary function. This morning, I had to reset my HR20 twice from BSOD's brought on simply by changing the channel. To me, this is not so much about TIVO vs. non-TIVO. It's about a product that works versus one which has clearly failed to date. So, if the HR20 was reliable, sure I would miss some of the TIVo functions, but I'd be happy I had a working DVR.

So, Directv, bring back TIVO, because it works. Get rid of the HR20 because it doesn't. The fact that the HR20 is the HD DVR for a flagship carrier like Directv is a sad state of customer satisfaction.

So what do you say to all the people that do have a functioning HR20.
That it does do exactly what it is asked to, with out issue.
That now have a unit that can access their local HD broadcasts?

What is to say that a MPEG-4 TiVo powered unit will not have any issues?

As it has been pointed out, many times now. Not even the TiVo has been perfect. You still see posts of people thave have or have had issues with it.

What if they did switch... people wait the 1 maybe 2 years to get an MPEG-4 enable TiVo built... and the unit had issues (of any type)... what then?

In the thread over in the HR20 forum... there is a person irrate because 24 failed to record. I understand EXACTLY how he feels.
Ironically, in my 2+ years with the HR10-250, that is one of the programs that my HR10-250 failed to record. Wasn't because of guide data, it was because of full system lockups... This is after I was on my 3rd replacement unit. It happens...

dodge boy

02-20-07, 07:16 AM

Get a 3rd generation Tivo and cable, if that is your choice, why waste all this time on a petition? Will a new HD Tivo work with a H20 non DVR HD receiver? just hook 2 up to each Tivo to get dual tunners......

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 07:18 AM

No, the TiVo Series 3 doesn't work with any external receivers.
If you want HD with a TiVo Series 3, you need to go with Cable-Co... because "officially" the T3 doesn't support FIOS

See www.tivocommunity.com for the current status of the Tivo Series 3

jal

02-20-07, 07:26 AM

captain_video

02-20-07, 07:27 AM

Like most things in life, a DVR is a personal preference and many people have theirs. I've never owned an R15 or an HR20 so I don't have an opinion of them other than they're not upgradable. This is of high importance to me and therefore takes both models out of consideration as a DVR I'd own. The stock drives that come with either of these units is too small for my needs so I need something I can put a larger drive into. There have been success stories with putting larger drives in the HR20 so at least there's a glimmer of hope there. Unfortunately, that's where the upgrade path ends.

I'm the kind of guy that likes to tweak things, and a Tivo the most "tweakable" DVR on the market. Comparing a Tivo to any other DVR just isn't a fair comparison when you consider what you can do with a Tivo. If all you want is a plain vanilla DVR then there are lots to choose from.

If the R15 or HR20 suits your needs then go for it. However, I've never heard of a Tivo owner that's switched from a DTivo to an R15 and ended up praising the R15 as being superior in any way. The usual response I've seen is "What a POS!" Other responses are lukewarm at best. Lots of HR20 owners that switched from the HR10 appear to be pleased with the new DVR, but again it seems to be a mixed bag.

On the issue of drive failures in a Tivo, let's face it. A Tivo (and any other DVR for that matter) presents a harsh environment for a hard drive that's meant for use in a PC. It's being used 24/7 in a cramped enclosure with poor ventilation. If ever there was a torture chamber for a hard drive then this is it.

I'd have to agree that the stock WD drives that DTV/Tivo uses in their DVRs are pretty much a POS. I've had more of them fail than I can shake a stick at. Fortunately, I usually replace the stock drives with larger ones when I put them into service so my drive failure rate has decreased substantially as a result. I'm not sure what drives are being used in the R15 or HR20 but if they're the same WD drives then I'd expect the same type of failure rates in those platforms as well.

As expected, this thread has gotten way off topic (anyone remember what the original topic was?) and turned into a Tivo vs. the world debate once again. Give it a rest, already! Everyone has their own DVR preference and someone else's opinion isn't going to change yours. Pick the one you like and go with it.

jal

02-20-07, 07:31 AM

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 07:36 AM

Well Earl, your point is well taken. Why does this have to be an all or nothing proposition. When Directv had multiple box manufacturers, folks could chose what they want. While not a perfect example, when both the R15 and the TIVO R10 were available, I initially had the R15. I didn't like it because it froze and missed recordings. So, I replaced it with a TIVO R10. I'm happy with that tv set up now, because I don't have problems with it.

It would be a great idea if Directv would allow TIVO to make a new MPEG IV box for Directv. Then, let the folks chose what they want. Just like cable does, I can choose their HD-DVR, or I can chose the TIVO.

So, those with the HR20 who think its great, let them keep it. Those who want TIVO and in good faith believe it is a better product, let them have it.

That "multi-choice" time, was very short lived (with regards to the DVR technology).. I know most of the reason why the UTV was shutdown, was because Microsoft decided not to continue down that path... but if it was vialable enough of a solution, they could have sold that "product" off to someone.

Here is one of the problems, and is actually one of the reasons they have closed the ranks on who designes the receivers...

WINK is a good example of this... not enough of the "makers" of the receiver bought into it... it wasn't in the all the units, only some.

So would you be okay with the Mpeg-4 enabled DTiVo, even if it was not compatible with interactive, VOD, DirecTV's online scheduling (comming), their home networking options, ect.... There is no guarantee that if TiVo came back into the fold, that they would be willing to put any of that into their code.

As why? DTivos are nearly identical to SA TiVos underneath. TiVo really has just one product, with a couple of "hooks" that allowed it to work with DirecTV and some other products... but for the most part... it is the same product on all of them.

Sure... they could probably eventually get some of that in there... but in what time frame?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the benefits of having a choice... but I also tend to look at what the problems there could be with having a choice.

For example: Take a look at the "outrage" by some people when SUPERFAN or HOTPASS was announced.. by those that owned DTivos. They where seriously ticked off that they would not be able to use any of the interactive features... But they didn't blame TiVo for not having the software available for interactive features, they blamed DirecTV for not supporting the TiVos.

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 07:37 AM

From Capitain Video [Pick the one you like and go with it.]

I agree with you, that should be the end result. But, for that to happen with the new HD MPEG IV set up, Directv has to yield and allow TIVO back in, so folks have the choice.

It's a two way street... TiVo, Inc.. would also have to be willing to build a system that meets DirecTV's wants and plans for the future.

It takes two to tango.

dodge boy

02-20-07, 07:47 AM

For example: Take a look at the "outrage" by some people when SUPERFAN or HOTPASS was announced.. by those that owned DTivos. They where seriously ticked off that they would not be able to use any of the interactive features... But they didn't blame TiVo for not having the software available for interactive features, they blamed DirecTV for not supporting the TiVos.

Exactly why when I switched to D* back from TWC I bought a used R15 off Ebay, I threw my defective one in the trash when D* refused to replace it or deactivate it. So my son has his R10 that he loves, I put the HDVR2 in my bed room and I can play with all the cool stuff on the R15 in the living room. I just can't wait for them to get Game Lounge working on it. (I talked to D*, they said it uses too much memory on the R15 and causes it to lock up, ther're trying to fix that problem) Maybe they'll mail out memeory sticks to everyone....

jpl

02-20-07, 08:02 AM

It's a two way street... TiVo, Inc.. would also have to be willing to build a system that meets DirecTV's wants and plans for the future.

It takes two to tango.

Bingo! That's exactly it. I've stated before - I don't believe DirecTV was looking to make "the best DVR" when they put out the R15 and HR20. They have an overall architecture in mind, and if TiVo doesn't fit into that, and if they don't want to change to accomodate that architecture, then what? Either DirecTV scraps it's plans just to keep TiVo, or they go their own way and develop the hardware that allows them to implement that architecture. Obviously DirecTV chose the latter - having their own systems gives them more control over where they can/will take the company.

jal

02-20-07, 08:06 AM

I think choice is always good. If TIVO can build a DVR that has all of the additional features that Earl sets forth above, great. If not, I'd still like to have a choice.

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 08:11 AM

I think choice is always good. If TIVO can build a DVR that has all of the additional features that Earl sets forth above, great. If not, I'd still like to have a choice.

But then what do you say to a person that pays $X for a TiVo powered unit, that can't do all the things that another unit can, which $Y was paid.

Especially if $X is larger then $Y ?

Sorry... you picked the wrong system...
Who will get the brunt of that? DirecTV or TiVo ?

jpl

02-20-07, 08:14 AM

I think choice is always good. If TIVO can build a DVR that has all of the additional features that Earl sets forth above, great. If not, I'd still like to have a choice.

I would normally agree - and I've made that argument before... if I didn't like the features of that RCA receiver, I could go with the Hughes, e.g. But Earl makes a good point about Wink. The receivers I had were Wink-enabled, but many (most?) weren't. If you can't get your manufacturers to implement a technology like that, then how do you introduce new features? I would imagine it would be a bit of a nightmare, especially since, at the time I signed up (nearly 5 years ago) I didn't really I have a choice of receivers, if I wanted to get the full-installation of 2 TVs for $50 (the going rate at the time). Each retailer seemed to carry a different brand for initial installs, and if I REALLY wanted, say, an RCA I would most likely have to go to a different retailer to get it. Now, imagine you're a standard user. You hear about all these cool interactive features. You go to sign up with DirecTV, you get all set up... only to find that the receiver you got doesn't support that technology (or one of the host of other technologies that Earl mentioned). I can imagine that happened. And it's gotta be a real headache for the company.

Granted, I think you CAN make the argument that DirecTV could just maintain TiVo for those who want it - either you sign up with the new DVR technology that gives you all the cool features you may want (e.g. interactive) or you stick with TiVo... you're choice. You could even make the default an R15/HR20 (so, when someone signs up, by default, unless they request otherwise, they will be given an R15 or HR20), but allow existing customers to request an R10 instead. Obviously, though, DirecTV doesn't see that as being either workable or cost-effective.

jal

02-20-07, 08:22 AM

But then what do you say to a person that pays $X for a TiVo powered unit, that can't do all the things that another unit can, which $Y was paid.

Especially if $X is larger then $Y ?

Sorry... you picked the wrong system...
Who will get the brunt of that? DirecTV or TiVo ?

Well, that's what's happening with cable now. I can decide to take the stock cable dvr, or, I can go to Best Buy or another Big Box and by the HD TIVO. So long as to consumer is educated, consumer choice is good.

bonscott87

02-20-07, 10:41 AM

Well, that's what's happening with cable now. I can decide to take the stock cable dvr, or, I can go to Best Buy or another Big Box and by the HD TIVO. So long as to consumer is educated, consumer choice is good.

But cable doesn't want you to have that choice. Besides soon when cable moves to switched video (to be able to keep up and compete with DirecTV and Dish's HD offerings) those Series 3 Tivo's will no longer work with cable and will be not much more then doorstops or OTA receivers.

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 10:44 AM

But cable doesn't want you to have that choice.

Exactly... The Cable-Co's are not "giving you" a choice... they where forced by the government to comply with Cable-Card.... And they are fighting that as much as they can...

If it wasn't for cable-card, the T3's wouldn't even exist, except for OTA

dhaakenson

02-20-07, 06:52 PM

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 07:00 PM

Of course, Comcast plans to offer the customer a real choice: TiVo as a replacement upgrade for their DVRs. If D* allowed me to pay a small, extra monthly fee to replace my HR20 software with TiVo's, I'd sign on for that. At least I'd finally be able to record and play back television.

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2007/01/tivo_booth_pics.html

They announced almost 3 years ago... and they are stuffing it into a box that is 4 years old.

There is still no definitive time frame... only thing I have seen is that it is going into Beta in April at the earliest.

So sure "choice" but when... and what will that choice be... What is the CTivo going to be like?

simonkodousek

02-20-07, 07:39 PM

Well, for me personally, I prefer TiVo to the DVR that is currently with DirecTV. However, I have had so many problems with the one that I get from Time Warner Cable that I can't even count. It deletes programs without me telling it to, it makes the picture quality about 100x worse than it already is, and it is horribly designed. If I switch to DirecTV I'll be getting DVR!

Wolffpack

02-20-07, 08:10 PM

They announced almost 3 years ago... and they are stuffing it into a box that is 4 years old.
I don't know anything about that box, but my SD/HD DTivos fit into that same time frame and you know what, they work fine. Just because a unit is a few years old doesn't mean it doesn't work.

dhaakenson

02-20-07, 08:46 PM

So sure "choice" but when... and what will that choice be... What is the CTivo going to be like?

Dunno. But unlike my HR20, I bet it will be able to record and play back television. :hurah:

But seriously, D* could offer the same choice, right? To offer customers TiVo software for the HR20, to replace the homegrown software that's already installed. That would be a true choice. You can debate the "when/what/what's it going to be like" all you want, but Comcast's decision to offer a choice seems more responsive to its customers than anything D* is doing with the HR20.

Also, I'm glad Comcast waited 3 to 4 years after announcing before rolling it out. If D* had waited a bit before rolling out the HR20, perhaps it would actually "record and play back television."

Earl Bonovich

02-20-07, 08:52 PM

Dunno. But unlike my HR20, I bet it will be able to record and play back television. :hurah:

But seriously, D* could offer the same choice, right? To offer customers TiVo software for the HR20, to replace the homegrown software that's already installed. That would be a true choice. You can debate the "when/what/what's it going to be like" all you want, but Comcast's decision to offer a choice seems more responsive to its customers than anything D* is doing with the HR20.

Also, I'm glad Comcast waited 3 to 4 years after announcing before rolling it out. If D* had waited a bit before rolling out the HR20, perhaps it would actually "record and play back television."

Actually... they probably couldn't offer TiVo software in the HR20 hardware... at least not anytime soon.... there is a reason why it took this long for TiVo/Comcast to get that software inside the Motorola.

Ironic: "If D* had waited a bit before rolling out the HR20, perhaps it would actually "record and play back television"
As I watching my HR20, while it is recording two other things... and I am playing what it recorded last week..
So what did the HR20 do then? if it can't "record and play back television" ?
Must be the network connection and it is streaming from somewhere.

Again.. Let's hold of on calling the CTivo "choice" right now... until all the details are out on what the choice will be...
And it is actually out there as a choice.... That carrot has been dangled out there for 3 years now... with no definitive date set.

untouchable

02-21-07, 11:29 AM

I remember when the DTiVo first came out...there were a lot of problems with those units at first as well. I had a lot of problems with my old RCA or Sony...Can't remember which one I had first...just remember paying $400 for it. I also have had problems with my HR20 and the first R15-500 I had. Now I received an R15-300 and have not had a bit of problems with it at all...The HR20 is getting better, just locks up when I try to network it....but networking to my PC isn't a big deal to me right now.

jediphish

02-21-07, 11:44 AM

I am a former owner of two HR10-250 units. Despite my love for TiVo, I switched to the HR20, which has had problems to work out.

Very recently, the HR20 box's overal rating in my own opinion has gone WAY up. I now feel that I have a satisfactory replacement for the HR10, that in fact does a few things the HR10 would not.

As one who really wished DirecTV had kept their deal with TiVo, I will say that if you have an open mind, and ask yourself what it is you want out of a DVR, that you might be pleasantly surprised with the HR20, once you get over the short-lived learning curve that goes with any sort of switch in life.

my 2 cents.

wilbur_the_goose

02-21-07, 12:27 PM

if only the HR20 had dual buffers... :)

wbmccarty

02-21-07, 01:46 PM

I'm not interested in dual buffers or fancy features. I'm too old to recall how to work them, anyway. :)

All I want is a unit that reliably records and plays back programs that I can't be present to watch via live TV. So far, the R-15 hasn't met that minimal expectation. [Please bear in mind that this thread was moved from the R-15 forum.] By drastically limiting my use, I have recently managed to obtain fairly consistent performance. But, I should be able to shift to second gear and even put the unit in reverse from time to time.

There's no reasonable excuse for such poor product quality. I suppose that, in the minds of some, satisfaction of greed is an antidote to shame. I will never again trust DTV, nor is it likely that I will ever have good things to say about them. Eventually, such customer attitudes will cost the company. By then, the executives responsible for the poor decisions at the root of these problems may long since have cashed out and retired. But, they had better pray that there's no satellite TV in the afterlife. If there is, I think these executives will have a rough time of it. :D

Cheers,

chicagoland

02-22-07, 01:32 PM

I set the online petition up because I have had so many problems with these units. I have two that replaced my TiVo units that I had for 3 years with out one single problem. My DVR R15-500s are horrible and I just want them fixed. I would love to see TiVo and DirecTV together again but would not care if these units were as good as them, they are not in any means. They are slow, reboot on their own, miss series links, no Rewind button (to the start of the show - you have to watch the video being rewinded when you want to go to the start of the show). I have kids that like to watch their recorded shows over and over and this is a pain. I have a wife that wants to kill me for getting these new units, she wants our TiVo's back and I can't blame her. I am sick of hearing that the future releases will resolve the issues. Just my 2 cents!

jpl

02-22-07, 01:37 PM

... no Rewind button (to the start of the show - you have to watch the video being rewinded when you want to go to the start of the show). I have kids that like to watch their recorded shows over and over and this is a pain...

Actually, on this point, anyway, this has been fixed. Hold down the jump-back button, and the show goes right back to the beginning. I did hear someone say that they had an issue with that (that it didn't work part of the time) but it works fine whenever I use it.

chicagoland

02-26-07, 11:23 AM

Actually, on this point, anyway, this has been fixed. Hold down the jump-back button, and the show goes right back to the beginning. I did hear someone say that they had an issue with that (that it didn't work part of the time) but it works fine whenever I use it.

It's working now, have not tried it since the last patch update. Also I notieced the bookmarks never worked, is this working yet?

bonscott87

02-26-07, 12:06 PM

It's working now, have not tried it since the last patch update. Also I notieced the bookmarks never worked, is this working yet?

Bookmarks have always worked for me. I've used them several times in the past month as well.

Pause the program and hit the green button to set a bookmark.

When you play the program again, if you want to go to the bookmark hit the menu button while playing and you'll have Bookmarks as an option on the menu. Choose the bookmark you want and you'll go right to it.

Pink Fairy

02-26-07, 08:29 PM

I love bookmarks, there are 5 adults in my house and only 2 dvr's

lewah33

02-26-07, 11:09 PM

So would you be okay with the Mpeg-4 enabled DTiVo, even if it was not compatible with interactive, VOD, DirecTV's online scheduling (comming), their home networking options, ect.... There is no guarantee that if TiVo came back into the fold, that they would be willing to put any of that into their code.

As why? DTivos are nearly identical to SA TiVos underneath. TiVo really has just one product, with a couple of "hooks" that allowed it to work with DirecTV and some other products... but for the most part... it is the same product on all of them.

Sure... they could probably eventually get some of that in there... but in what time frame?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the benefits of having a choice... but I also tend to look at what the problems there could be with having a choice.

For example: Take a look at the "outrage" by some people when SUPERFAN or HOTPASS was announced.. by those that owned DTivos. They where seriously ticked off that they would not be able to use any of the interactive features... But they didn't blame TiVo for not having the software available for interactive features, they blamed DirecTV for not supporting the TiVos.

The real issue is choice - and I for one choose Tivo over the NDS HD DVR. Would I like the HR10 Tivo to have Tivo's home media options? Sure. Would I sacrifice those home media options, some Superfan content (cuz, for now, you get all HD NFL content on the HR10), Nascar, interactive features and video on demand? Yes.

Out-of-market NFL and potentially MLB fans are essentially wed to D*. With our choice limited to one provider, I'd at least like to have the option of using the DVR of my choosing - TIVO.

I assume that NDS stayed with Newscorp when D* was sold to Liberty. Is there any reason for D* to stay with NDS now that the corporate ties are severed?

DawgLink

02-26-07, 11:41 PM

My D* DVR has been pretty good on the whole.

Have had to do a few RBR but thats it

ronrico51

02-27-07, 12:58 AM

I just switched to the HR20, been a DTivo user for a while. I have to say, the interface is just plain lousy. The guide data is worse, the search function is worse, the PIP during the menus is a needless distraction, and can be a spoiler if you are not careful. I think a lot of Tivo users probably really would miss the DLB, it gets to be so instinctive you don't even realize you are using it. You can't pause the live buffer and then come back to your spot after watching something recorded. It hasn't been fun going from a Cadillac to a Chevy. I know a lot of people here think the HR20 has a great interface, but I am not one of them.
OTOH, the HR20 is HD, and that is good. It's just a shame that the software people at NDS or DTV just couldn't look at a good product (the Tivo) and figure out ways to make it better.
Would I like to see DTV going back to Tivo? Heck yes, but it ain't gonna happen. Hopefully they can tweak the HR20 and address some of the many weaknesses of it. Meanwhile, my wife thinks I am a moron for replacing the downstairs Tivo with the HR20. It does amuse her though whenever I moan when I discover another thing that the HR20 can't do.