Another native On or Off...

[veryoldschool]

I know this should have been kicked to death by now, but... I was just thinking [yes there was smoke coming out of my ears] about what has been posted.
Those that know more than I do [everyone] have said that if the H/HR-20 does the scaling [native off] that the de-interlacing is better because it can use the vectoring info that isn't available [native on] to the TV. This makes sense but: where would this be a problem? There are only two interlaced formats: 480i & 1080i. 720p sure isn't. 480p isn't a "native" format. Isn't all SD programing 480i?
If the H/HR-20 could output 1080p, then native off would make some sense [as it would have the vectoring info to do it better]. Now if your TV has "only" a native 720p resolution, then the receiver could/would do a better job of converting the 1080i signal to 720p.
If on the other hand, your TV is 1080i/p native resolution, it DOESN'T matter. If the receiver doesn't do the scaling & "just" reconstitutes the HD signal back to what the broadcast signal was, then TV will have all the info [available] to scale to your display. 720p doesn't need de-interlacing & 1080i can't be de-interlaced by the H/HR-20 so either with native on or off, it will be interlaced, requiring the display to "adjust" it to "p" [if needed].
So what does any of this mean? If your TV has a native resolution of [or close to] 1280 x 720, or will only display 1080i [like my old Sony] there is a "technical" advantage to having the scaling done by the receiver. If your TV can display 1920 x 1080 and 720p "naturally" there isn't.
Which scaler works better will always be "in the eye of the watcher" so it will always be up to you, as there is "no right answer" for everyone, other than what you like.
I am just trying to make sense of everything that has been posted. FWIW :)

[Pink Fairy]

0.o I would so learn something from the answers posted, since I have no frickin' clue!!!!

[bonscott87]

There is no "right" answer. It's all in how it looks to you. My TV seems to upconvert 480i better then the HR20 so I let my TV do the work. Plus it has a nice stretch mode where I had the stretch on the HR20. But I'm starting to just leave it in 1080i piller box mode most of the time and getting used to SD material not stretched anymore. I only go to 480i output when it's a letter boxed show now.

But again, just what looks best to me.

[JeffBowser]

It is becoming more and more like this for me:
Yesterday evening, I turned on my TV, and lo! the picture was wide, the picture was clear, and Kate on Lost still looks gorgeous. Good enough for me, I shall henceforth abandon all HD, HDLite, 720 vs 1080, and p vs i conversations forevermore :lol:

[veryoldschool]

I would hope everyone's "goal" is to have a great looking picture [to them].
Isn't this the point?:D

[JeffBowser]

Yes indeed, it should be the point, but too often, this point gets lost. It's like this at the Canon photography forum I post in - people get themselves into a tizzy over this that and the other thing, and completely lose sight of the big picture (if you will allow me a bad pun....)

Mind you, I am not kicking you or your post, I'm just having a little fun here.

[veryoldschool]

As we all should be doing [having fun]. :lol:

[radamo]

As we all should be doing [having fun]. :lol:

Totally agree... but I would not be having fun if my DVR was doing flaky things like not recording when it should. I turned Native to off when I saw so many people that had it set to yes were reporting issues. Is it now working properly so I can experiment with what actually looks better on my set up?

Any input appreciated.
RA

[veryoldschool]

Totally agree... but I would not be having fun if my DVR was doing flaky things like not recording when it should. I turned Native to off when I saw so many people that had it set to yes were reporting issues. Is it now working properly so I can experiment with what actually looks better on my set up?
Any input appreciated.
RA
Except for that "bad" CE [with the native on issue] I haven't had a problem using native on [FWIW].
This is always something the user will/should find the best setting for.
Some TV do "x", some don't. Your mileage will vary... I'm just trying to make some sense out of what some smart members have posted. :D

[AnonomissX]

In my experience...you have to try a few combinations of settings on your HDTV and the receiver, and stay with what looks best on YOUR combination of equipment.

[c152driver]

Personally, I have native off solely because I can't handle the extra sync time when changing channels with native on. My better half already complains about channel change times with native off. :)

[veryoldschool]

"What's best for you" may not always be picture quality. :lol:
Again there is no "one answer fits all". :D

[satwood]

Hi,

Speaking from the perspective of someone who designs control electronics for progressive matrix displays (i.e. LCDs and plasma, etc.) I would observe that the biggest problems in de-interlacing are: Motion Adaptation and film mode issues. By far, the problems most visible in modern chip sets relate to the motion adaptation, where the scene is changing rapidly in time between when the two interlace fields are captured or produced digitally. This was one of the larger debates in the early days of forming the HDTV standard and is somewhat represented in the compromise between 720 progressive and 1080interlaced. (Of course, bandwidth was the major reason). Whether you choose to let the receiver or the TV do the de-interlacing depends mostly on how well either of them does the job. As long as the format/resolution of the image is not changed going through the receiver, I think the TV gets as much information as the receiver has about the source scene, and whether it was generated from film or a TV camera. (There is some additional meta-data that comes in the OTA HDTV streams but I don't know how many systems take advantage of it or if it gets through the DirecTV system or not.) The two have different de-interlacing problems because the source frame rate is different. In general, I would say that if you paid a lot of money and have a really good set of image processing electronics in your LCD or Plasma TV, then get the signal out of the receiver in native format and let the TV do the heavy lifting because it should be optimized for the panel format, gamma, colorspace, etc. If your TV is a low cost or 'bargain' system, it probably has minimal image processing, use what the receiver can provide.

By the way, when it works, I think the H20 processor is pretty good. I've tested it on a number of LCD screens without any intermediate processing to muck up the data and it looks as good as a mid+ level TV -- which is not bad.

[veryoldschool]

I would say you post agrees with my thread starting post. I've read where the "meta-data" is actually sent/used by the H/Hr-20 in the de-interlacing, which could/should give an advantage to the H/HR-20 [verses the TV] when a 1080i program is sent to a 720p display.
Since a 720p signal isn't interlaced, I can't see the "advantage" [in using the H/HR-20].
So, if you display can show 1080 [anything] I don't see the advantage with using the H/HR-20 for de-interlacing. :)

[steelgtr]

I'm still new to this and very confused. I have the hr20 and a Panansonic 720P TH50-9UK and am trying different combinations to make SD watchable. Does anyone have this combo?

thx

bob

[veryoldschool]

I'm still new to this and very confused. I have the hr20 and a Panansonic 720P TH50-9UK and am trying different combinations to make SD watchable. Does anyone have this combo? thx bob
I don't have for equipment, but started this thread, so:
I would go into the HR-20 setup & make sure 480i, 480p, & 720p are selected in the resolution window.
Next, I would set native to "off" for the first part of testing.
Now using the remote & the format button [upper left below video input], I would cycle through all of them [480i pillarbox, stretch, crop, 480p .....,...., & 720p]. This should give you some idea of what would look the best to you with each setting. Remember that zoom [crop] will expand the image larger so [to me] it will look worse & stretch will also distort the image to fill the screen.
The "best" picture for a SD channel [again to me] is with pillar box [no distortion of image size] & either native on [with my TV using the 480i signal] or native off [where the HR-20 does the work] and then picking 480i, 480p, or 720p.
Everyone's setup is different as are their eyes & likes, so there is no "right answer", but what you like.
I hope this will help you. :)

[steelgtr]

I don't have for equipment, but started this thread, so:
I would go into the HR-20 setup & make sure 480i, 480p, & 720p are selected in the resolution window.
Next, I would set native to "off" for the first part of testing.
Now using the remote & the format button [upper left below video input], I would cycle through all of them [480i pillarbox, stretch, crop, 480p .....,...., & 720p]. This should give you some idea of what would look the best to you with each setting. Remember that zoom [crop] will expand the image larger so [to me] it will look worse & stretch will also distort the image to fill the screen.
The "best" picture for a SD channel [again to me] is with pillar box [no distortion of image size] & either native on [with my TV using the 480i signal] or native off [where the HR-20 does the work] and then picking 480i, 480p, or 720p.
Everyone's setup is different as are their eyes & likes, so there is no "right answer", but what you like.
I hope this will help you. :)


Thanks, I tied adding 480i but get no signal. I've been trying native "off" the last day and thought it might look better than on but SD looks like crap no matter what I do.

Since my display is 720P, wouldn't it make sense to leave the DTV fixed on 720P pillar box?

thx

bob

[veryoldschool]

Thanks, I tied adding 480i but get no signal. I've been trying native "off" the last day and thought it might look better than on but SD looks like crap no matter what I do.
Since my display is 720P, wouldn't it make sense to leave the DTV fixed on 720P pillar box?
thx
bob
You just can't make "SD" into anything but SD.
Since your TV is "only" 720p, native off & leaving it to 720p makes "technical" sense [if you follow the starting post].
I have a Sony 1080p TV & use native on, but it works [maybe better for me, maybe not] and since this all depends on your likes & dislikes, I think you've "Found" what you like. :)

[steelgtr]

You just can't make "SD" into anything but SD.
Since your TV is "only" 720p, native off & leaving it to 720p makes "technical" sense [if you follow the starting post].
I have a Sony 1080p TV & use native on, but it works [maybe better for me, maybe not] and since this all depends on your likes & dislikes, I think you've "Found" what you like. :)


I'm not sure if my Panny is *only* 720P, just that that is the native rez of the display if that matters?


bob

[veryoldschool]

I'm not sure if my Panny is *only* 720P, just that that is the native rez of the display if that matters?
bob
Since it's "native" res is that, something will need to scale a 1080i program. The HR-20 should do it better [because of what's in the first posting].
Now if you want to keep playing: 480i you say doesn't work, so that leaves 480p, 720p, & 1080i and then you can try native on or off & watch shows for a while to see what you like.
Of course with native on it's all in your TV & with it off you will need to change with the remote to the different resolutions to check. AND 480p will make any HD look like crap [duh!].

[Donnie Byrd]

oldschool, very sensible thread. :) Many of us are still in the "learning curve" with Native and your explanations sound right on the money. One that has puzzled me though, is a post some time back, (can't seem to find it) where a user's native was 720 but he had all resolutions checked, including 1080i, and had native on.

I realize that this was what he felt best for his viewing pleasure, but why check 1080i if his display is only 720? Again, i realize that this gave him the best pq for his liking, but what's the advantage?

[veryoldschool]

oldschool, very sensible thread. :) Many of us are still in the "learning curve" with Native and your explanations sound right on the money. One that has puzzled me though, is a post some time back, (can't seem to find it) where a user's native was 720 but he had all resolutions checked, including 1080i, and had native on.
I realize that this was what he felt best for his viewing pleasure, but why check 1080i if his display is only 720? Again, i realize that this gave him the best pq for his liking, but what's the advantage?
Glad you asked....:lol:
If your display is "only" 720p, when you have native "on" & the 1080i checked, what happens is the TV does the conversion., not the receiver. In the case of "that" member, they feel the TV does a better looking job of it.
From all that I've been reading, as posted, "technically" the receiver should do it better as it [the receiver] as access to vector information [in the "data file"] that is lost as it is decoded into the 1080 interlaced format.
Interlaced is half of the picture, every other frame. Since the receiver "knows" [or has access to] the complete [full] frame, it should be able to produce the full frame better than the TV.
To try to simplify: if you first "cut it in half", then send "haves" to the TV for it to "paste" back together, some of the movement between the frames can be off as they came in "haves" instead of "wholes".
I don't think TVs that aren't CRT based really display "interlaced" anymore. They are all progressive scan, like computer monitors.
Now that I've typed this, I think I want to change my setting from 480i to 480p.
If the receiver could output 1080p, I would use native on with 480p, 720p, & 1080p. This would have "the best" of both the receiver & my nice Sony flat panel 46" 1080p.
Since it doesn't: 480p, 720p, & 1080i would have the receiver work the best & then my TV would take these signals and scale them to the display size. Hummm always something to think about.
Thanks for asking, as now "I see" a better way for mine would work.
And back to your question: "technically" having a 720p display, you wouldn't want 1080i checked.
Nobody ever said this "High tech stuff" was easy. :D

The counterpoint to this is: I paid a fortune for my TV so it MUST do a better job than this cheap receiver. After all it cost more!
In the old "stereo days" they called this "psycho-acoustics". If they pay more for it, then they think it sounds better.

[thekochs]

"technically" having a 720p display, you wouldn't want 1080i checked.

I think for those reading without a technical degree and not involved in the video world should just chose for themselves.
However, I agree with the above statement and perhaps the quickest newbie steps are..........

1) If you can live with the sync/delay between channel changes and you have a 1080P TV (big $$$) leave Native ON.........done....move on. :)

2) IF either of the above is not true (example your TV's native rez is 1280x720 or 1366x768).........then turn Native OFF and set only 720P rez.

Now, if your not a believer, and as everyone has stated there are tons of variables in why one should be better or not on your system, then start tweeking and see which you believe looks better. Make sure you try SD, HD (both MPEG2 OTA & MPEG4 locals). Have fun. :p

[veryoldschool]

And this is only the resolution settings.
Then there is the whole "format" [scaling] thing that both the HR-20 AND your TV will do AT the SAME TIME.
I've lost count of "all of the options".
If it looks good...go for it. :D

[thekochs]

Hi,

Speaking from the perspective of someone who designs control electronics for progressive matrix displays (i.e. LCDs and plasma, etc.) I would observe that the biggest problems in de-interlacing are: Motion Adaptation and film mode issues. By far, the problems most visible in modern chip sets relate to the motion adaptation, where the scene is changing rapidly in time between when the two interlace fields are captured or produced digitally. This was one of the larger debates in the early days of forming the HDTV standard and is somewhat represented in the compromise between 720 progressive and 1080interlaced. (Of course, bandwidth was the major reason). Whether you choose to let the receiver or the TV do the de-interlacing depends mostly on how well either of them does the job. As long as the format/resolution of the image is not changed going through the receiver, I think the TV gets as much information as the receiver has about the source scene, and whether it was generated from film or a TV camera. (There is some additional meta-data that comes in the OTA HDTV streams but I don't know how many systems take advantage of it or if it gets through the DirecTV system or not.) The two have different de-interlacing problems because the source frame rate is different. In general, I would say that if you paid a lot of money and have a really good set of image processing electronics in your LCD or Plasma TV, then get the signal out of the receiver in native format and let the TV do the heavy lifting because it should be optimized for the panel format, gamma, colorspace, etc. If your TV is a low cost or 'bargain' system, it probably has minimal image processing, use what the receiver can provide.

By the way, when it works, I think the H20 processor is pretty good. I've tested it on a number of LCD screens without any intermediate processing to muck up the data and it looks as good as a mid+ level TV -- which is not bad.

Tech question for you and VOS.......isn't one of the issues in that the HR20s MPEG decoder uncompresses the MP2/MP4 frames (no matter if interlaced source or progressive) and rebuilds the interframes.....using the motion comp data........as well as intra-frame motion comp is done ? It seems to me it is all MPEG and the HR20 surely decodes (as well as decrypts via the access key) this MPEG stream no matter what and since your are connecting either via a HDMI or Component connection, which are uncompressed, then the "TV/PJ" at this point is merely a display that "scalar" is either doing something to the incoming uncompressed stream or not. Am I out in left field on this ?

[veryoldschool]

I think I'm playing short stop here.
With "native on" the resolution [& i/p scan] is set [done] in the HR-20 for what the broadcaster sent [if you have that selected as one that your TV supports]. With native off, it still is done by the HR-20 but to what ever setting you've selected.
Format [not resolution] is more of the scaling. You can have it done by the HR-20 whether native on or off. This is the "pillarbox, stretch, crop options.
Now if you use native ON and want to have the scaling done by your TV, you need to have the format set to stretch. This "tells" the HR-20 not to do anything [no pillarbox "bars", crop] so now you TV format [scaling] can function.
With HD signals the HR-20 has no affect with it's format settings.
With SD, the settings need to be "disabled" by setting to stretch. This changes the "normal" SD signal from 720 x 480 to 640 x 480, so the TV can then make it's changes to it.
Have I lost you yet?

If not then this should: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=83058

[steelgtr]

I think I'm playing short stop here.
With "native on" the resolution [& i/p scan] is set [done] in the HR-20 for what the broadcaster sent [if you have that selected as one that your TV supports]. With native off, it still is done by the HR-20 but to what ever setting you've selected.
Format [not resolution] is more of the scaling. You can have it done by the HR-20 whether native on or off. This is the "pillarbox, stretch, crop options.
Now if you use native ON and want to have the scaling done by your TV, you need to have the format set to stretch. This "tells" the HR-20 not to do anything [no pillarbox "bars", crop] so now you TV format [scaling] can function.
With HD signals the HR-20 has no affect with it's format settings.
With SD, the settings need to be "disabled" by setting to stretch. This changes the "normal" SD signal from 720 x 480 to 640 x 480, so the TV can then many it's changes to it.
Have I lost you yet?

If not then this should: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=83058


Really?

I thought strech would just degrade the picture more?? I always use pillar box to keep the picture as small (unaltered?) as possible?

I'll give it a try. I've been staying with native on/ pillar box latelt w/ a 720P Plasma.

thx

bob

[veryoldschool]

Let me try to "boil down" the 180 posts of the linked thread.
"pillarbox" and the others don't have any effect with HD programing.
So for SD: I like it to look undistorted. "pillarbox" looks this way & the guide shows in wide-screen.
Others want "full screen" SD, so stretch [HR-20] & "full" on the TV. Then there is the "variable" stretch on some TVs too.

Now letterbox SD is just about the worst of all worlds. You can: keep the TV set to full, & use crop on the HR-20.
If you want to use "Zoom" on the TV: you need to set the HR-20 to stretch so you can then use the zoom, wide-zoom of the TV.
This all depends on whether you want the HR-20 or your TV to do the scaling.
The "nice" thing is the format button on both remotes make your choices just a few presses away.