Any Alternative?

[hr20manray]

Is there an alternative to the hr20? I have read in these posts that when certain satellites go up this year and certain mpeg4 channels go live, that the Tivo box won't be able to display these channels. Is that correct? If so, when that happens, is there any other box that can receive and record all 150 hd channels D* is advertising or is the hr20 the ony box that will do it?

[Doug Brott]

I'm pretty sure that the only MPEG-4 capable boxes with DirecTV are the H20 and the HR20. The HR20 is the only one of the two that has recording capabilities.

[PoitNarf]

Yep, it's HR20 or bust for watching and/or recording MPEG4 channels.

[hr20manray]

I'm pretty sure that the only MPEG-4 capable boxes with DirecTV are the H20 and the HR20. The HR20 is the only one of the two that has recording capabilities.


What about other companies? When the 150 channels are up and live won't Tivo have a box that can see the meg-4? Or Hughes or someone like that? I have been a D* customer from their beginning but if by the time these channels arrive and if they are still having problems with the hr20, I am going to look elsewhere. I don't mean I'm leaving D* but I'm not using their equipment. Even last night I have a brand new problem. I put in the channel number and it won't change. I'm tired of this. I wouldn't think they could get it where only their boxes can receive the channels. Kind of like Microsoft working great with IE but not w/Netscape. It's not like that is it?

[Earl Bonovich]

No other company is authorized to make new hardware that can access the DirecTV signal.

[hr20manray]

No other company is authorized to make new hardware that can access the DirecTV signal.


That ain't gonna fly.
That sounds like a monopoly to me.
I'm sure the content providers will be happy to learn that D* is shutting everyone else out unless they use their product.

[Steve Robertson]

That ain't gonna fly.
That sounds like a monopoly to me.
I'm sure the content providers will be happy to learn that D* is shutting everyone else out unless they use their product.

Why would the content providers care???

[hr20manray]

Why would the content providers care???

The content providers want their programs (and commercials) to be seen by as many people as possible. D* is restricting it to only those that use their boxes cans see it. It would be like CBS buying out RCA and then saying you can only see CBS if you have an RCA tv.

[SuperTech1]

That ain't gonna fly.
That sounds like a monopoly to me.
I'm sure the content providers will be happy to learn that D* is shutting everyone else out unless they use their product.

MPEG4 is still in it's infancy. I wouldn't be surprised if other manufacturers are brought in sometime down the road. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
:D

[Earl Bonovich]

That ain't gonna fly.
That sounds like a monopoly to me.
I'm sure the content providers will be happy to learn that D* is shutting everyone else out unless they use their product.


Why wouldn't it fly? It has been that way for three years...

As is the identical model that Dish Network and the Cable-Co's has done for a long time now.

DirecTV had to always authorize the receivers anyway to access the stream.
And it is not like DirecTV is "building them"... They are sub-contracting out the manufacturing and even the software development for those receivers to at least 9 different manufactures.

So just because Sony can't release "their" version of a receiver for DirecTV services... There are arguments on both sides of where that is good and where that is bad. (one example was wInk... only a small handfull of receivers where compatible with it, thus it just wasn't used by the entire user base).

[jimb726]

That ain't gonna fly.
That sounds like a monopoly to me.
I'm sure the content providers will be happy to learn that D* is shutting everyone else out unless they use their product.

Its not a monopoly, you will still be able to use a Tivo based reciever or any other type to recieve SD tv. But if you want the MPEG4 signals, the only thing that currently gets those signals is the H20 and the HR20. Until the MPEG2 satellites are shut off, which could be anywhere from 1 month to 24 months depending on what you read, you can still get HD signals on your other HD receivers. I think you might be naive if you think that the providers dont know whats going on. Their signal is readily available in SD, and as long as D* cannot keep HR20 on the shelf, there is no reason for content providers to be concerned about how their HD product is getting to the consumer. Rmember, the only thing you are talking about is MPEG4 broadcast.

[PoitNarf]

Many cable providers limit you to a specific brand or model of box if you want digital cable service with them. I'm also pretty sure that Dish Network does the same as well. This is hardly a D* specific issue.

[jimb726]

The content providers want their programs (and commercials) to be seen by as many people as possible. D* is restricting it to only those that use their boxes cans see it. It would be like CBS buying out RCA and then saying you can only see CBS if you have an RCA tv.

Totally inaccurate argument, there are plenty of equipment choices out there. I dont think that there is one channel yet, that is available only in MPEG4. You can watch every channel in SD, and currently several channels in HD on any HD reciever that is licensed to recieve D* signal. Worst case scenario, you are forced to resort to an OTA to get local HD channels and watch the rest in HD.

[Doug Brott]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure how this is a monopoly either. Everyone has the opportunity to go to another provider to use a different box. Even the "other guy's" box is pretty standardized.

[hr20manray]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure how this is a monopoly either. Everyone has the opportunity to go to another provider to use a different box. Even the "other guy's" box is pretty standardized.

I don't think it's an open and shut case as some of you suggest. I think these fairly new areas of software, hardware, content provider, dbs and cable are not cut and dried. It smells a lot to me like Microsoft and Java. That's just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

[jimb726]

I don't think it's an open and shut case as some of you suggest. I think these fairly new areas of software, hardware, content provider, dbs and cable are not cut and dried. It smells a lot to me like Microsoft and Java. That's just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

I agree that everyone is entitle to opinions. It just seems to me that D* must have a team of lawyers the size of a small city making sure that issues like this are non-issues. Just a guess though.

[Earl Bonovich]

I don't think it's an open and shut case as some of you suggest. I think these fairly new areas of software, hardware, content provider, dbs and cable are not cut and dried. It smells a lot to me like Microsoft and Java. That's just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

Again...

Other manufactures are contracted to build the units. DirecTV doesn't actually "build" them.

What DirecTV has done, has decided... To access OUR network... your system must conform to THESE standards, which includes GUI and SAT reception types. VS in the past, where they just had to comply to the security standards... and GUI and "extra" features where up to them.

And part of that standard is now... slap DirecTV out the outside of the box, instead of "your company" name.

Again... same as DishNetwork has been doing for a very long time.
And the same as the Cable-Co's with their Digital boxes...

This isn't a "new" concept.

[hr20manray]

I agree that everyone is entitle to opinions. It just seems to me that D* must have a team of lawyers the size of a small city making sure that issues like this are non-issues. Just a guess though.

I did not know that D* was not allowing anyone else to make boxes to access some new programming or way of compressing or whatever it is. I would think if I was a programming content provider getting sponsors to pay for commercial time, I sure the hell wouldn't want to be on one of the mpeg4 channels. Your commercial would reach much less people because the mpeg4 channels are restricted to only those that use the hr20. Wouldn't that be a significant amount of people? And if I was paying for commercial time, it should cost me less money if you were going to show it by mpeg4 where it reaches less people.

[veryoldschool]

I did not know that D* was not allowing anyone else to make boxes to access some new programming or way of compressing or whatever it is. I would think if I was a programming content provider getting sponsors to pay for commercial time, I sure the hell wouldn't want to be on one of the mpeg4 channels. Your commercial would reach much less people because the mpeg4 channels are restricted to only those that use the hr20. Wouldn't that be a significant amount of people? And if I was paying for commercial time, it should cost me less money if you were going to show it by mpeg4 where it reaches less people.
Not really because there is still the SD feed. The local HD feed is just a "plus".

[Doug Brott]

I don't think it's an open and shut case as some of you suggest. I think these fairly new areas of software, hardware, content provider, dbs and cable are not cut and dried. It smells a lot to me like Microsoft and Java. That's just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

Perhaps, I just don't even understand the argument that you are making. Sure, the manufacturers will want to sell their expertise/equipment to DirecTV, but just because they want to sell it to them doesn't mean that DirecTV has to buy it.

Windows is an operating system on which multiple applications are designed to run. It should "open" in the sense that the operating system needs to run a general purpose application. Also, there is no real competitor to the Microsoft operating systems (Sorry Mac and Linux).

DirecTV is a closed system in which DirecTV builds everything. The only standard that they need to adhere to is the output device which is your television. The whole service is providing content to your television which is what they do. You currently have multiple choices of receivers, but even if there was one single receiver, the service is still provided. Unlike Microsoft, DirecTV has numerous competitors - Cable TV, Dish Network and in some areas FIOS. DirecTV also has the ultimate competitor in OTA - you don't even have to buy the service in many cases. Maybe this is just my opinion, but as I said, I just don't even understand the argument that you are making.

[jimb726]

I did not know that D* was not allowing anyone else to make boxes to access some new programming or way of compressing or whatever it is. I would think if I was a programming content provider getting sponsors to pay for commercial time, I sure the hell wouldn't want to be on one of the mpeg4 channels. Your commercial would reach much less people because the mpeg4 channels are restricted to only those that use the hr20. Wouldn't that be a significant amount of people? And if I was paying for commercial time, it should cost me less money if you were going to show it by mpeg4 where it reaches less people.

No, unless I am mistaken the MPEG4 signal is the HD signal of the SD channel for the most part, they are paying aby additional money based on whether the commercial is being viewed on SD or HD. In the instance where the channel broadcaast in HD is different than the SD signal, i.e. Discovery, they dont show commercials other than the ones for their own station which is why a one hour version of American Chopper on regular Discovery Channel is 46 minutes long on Dicovery HD. They chose to show thier content only on that channel. The advertising time is sold on TNT, anyone watching TNTHD is just gravy.

[Tom Robertson]

Again...

Other manufactures are contracted to build the units. DirecTV doesn't actually "build" them.

What DirecTV has done, has decided... To access OUR network... your system must conform to THESE standards, which includes GUI and SAT reception types. VS in the past, where they just had to comply to the security standards... and GUI and "extra" features where up to them.

And part of that standard is now... slap DirecTV out the outside of the box, instead of "your company" name.

Again... same as DishNetwork has been doing for a very long time.
And the same as the Cable-Co's with their Digital boxes...

This isn't a "new" concept.

I mostly agree with your examples and I do see both sides to DIRECTV's dilemma.

But, I remind you that cable companies have been told by the government to support: anyone's "compatible" STB, Cable Card, and compliant VCRs and TVs. Similarly, DIRECTV might be forced to do so at some point, tho I'm not sure if that would or would not be a good thing. And as you clearly say, DIRECTV is using several manufacturers to design and build the devices.

To me, so long as there is some amount of competition at each level: content provider, manufacturer, etc. to ensure innovation and cost competitiveness, then its all good.

Cheers,
Tom

[SuperTech1]

I did not know that D* was not allowing anyone else to make boxes to access some new programming or way of compressing or whatever it is. I would think if I was a programming content provider getting sponsors to pay for commercial time, I sure the hell wouldn't want to be on one of the mpeg4 channels. Your commercial would reach much less people because the mpeg4 channels are restricted to only those that use the hr20. Wouldn't that be a significant amount of people? And if I was paying for commercial time, it should cost me less money if you were going to show it by mpeg4 where it reaches less people.

I doubt there will ever be any exclusively MPEG4 channels until everyone is able to receive them.

[hr20manray]

Perhaps, I just don't even understand the argument that you are making. Sure, the manufacturers will want to sell their expertise/equipment to DirecTV, but just because they want to sell it to them doesn't mean that DirecTV has to buy it.

Windows is an operating system on which multiple applications are designed to run. It should "open" in the sense that the operating system needs to run a general purpose application. Also, there is no real competitor to the Microsoft operating systems (Sorry Mac and Linux).

DirecTV is a closed system in which DirecTV builds everything. The only standard that they need to adhere to is the output device which is your television. The whole service is providing content to your television which is what they do. You currently have multiple choices of receivers, but even if there was one single receiver, the service is still provided. Unlike Microsoft, DirecTV has numerous competitors - Cable TV, Dish Network and in some areas FIOS. DirecTV also has the ultimate competitor in OTA - you don't even have to buy the service in many cases. Maybe this is just my opinion, but as I said, I just don't even understand the argument that you are making.

I'm not talking about "manufacturers". Maybe I've said it wrong. I mean the programming providers like HDNET, HBO sometimes, or HGTV (not a good example, but they will be HD in D* soon) I mean if I am sponsoring 10 minutes of a show on HDNET. And they are being shown with the mpeg-4 compression then only the people with D* box can see the mpeg-4. So my commercial doesn't go out to as many people as non-mpeg4. I would think that would be a significant amount of people. Enough to say, like I'm Budweiser, I'm not paying as much for a commercial if it going to be broadcast mpeg-4 because not very many people will see it.

[veryoldschool]

I'm not talking about "manufacturers". Maybe I've said it wrong. I mean the programming providers like HDNET, HBO sometimes, or HGTV (not a good example, but they will be HD in D* soon) I mean if I am sponsoring 10 minutes of a show on HDNET. And they are being shown with the mpeg-4 compression then only the people with D* box can see the mpeg-4. So my commercial doesn't go out to as many people as non-mpeg4. I would think that would be a significant amount of people. Enough to say, like I'm Budweiser, I'm not paying as much for a commercial if it going to be broadcast mpeg-4 because not very many people will see it.
And the price for programing would show this to or from D*, wouldn't it?
I guess I really don't see your point.

[SuperTech1]

And the price for programing would show this to or from D*, wouldn't it?
I guess I really don't see your point.

+1

[Earl Bonovich]

I doubt there will ever be any exclusively MPEG4 channels until everyone is able to receive them.

IMHO, you are going to see exclusive MPEG-4 channels as soon as this year.

Even though a lot of the channels will simulcast down to their SD counterpart.. There are most likely going to be some similar to DiscoveryHD that have a different lineup for their HD offering.

[hr20manray]

And the price for programing would show this to or from D*, wouldn't it?
I guess I really don't see your point.

I'm sorry you don't see my point, but I've explained it as well a I can. So either I don't have a point or I can't express it to you. But this started when I read this line "No other company is authorized to make new hardware that can access the DirecTV signal." from Earl. This does not mention mpeg4 it says 'the signal'. That is what didn't seem right to me.

[Earl Bonovich]

But, I remind you that cable companies have been told by the government to support: anyone's "compatible" STB, Cable Card, and compliant VCRs and TVs. Similarly, DIRECTV might be forced to do so at some point, tho I'm not sure if that would or would not be a good thing. And as you clearly say, DIRECTV is using several manufacturers to design and build the devices.



Yes, that is a consideration... but based on the information out there... Cable-Card is not going over too well.... And Time Warner with their Switched Video has already found a "loop hole" in that.

And even with the Cable-Card compliance.. .Even in the case of Comcast and Series 3... the Cable-Card spec they have to compliant too, doesn't give you all the features of Comcast (such as OnDemand).

So there is "compliance", and there is "I can get any box, and do everything"

[say-what]

I'm not talking about "manufacturers". Maybe I've said it wrong. I mean the programming providers like HDNET, HBO sometimes, or HGTV (not a good example, but they will be HD in D* soon) I mean if I am sponsoring 10 minutes of a show on HDNET. And they are being shown with the mpeg-4 compression then only the people with D* box can see the mpeg-4. So my commercial doesn't go out to as many people as non-mpeg4. I would think that would be a significant amount of people. Enough to say, like I'm Budweiser, I'm not paying as much for a commercial if it going to be broadcast mpeg-4 because not very many people will see it.

HDNet and the others don't care one way or the other so long as D* pays for the content and lives up to the terms of the carriage contract. D* pretty much pays according to how many viewers a particular network will be available. I'd wager that the networks would rather be on the platform that will be supported into the future (mpeg-4) rather than the one that's being phased out (mpeg-2). If they want to be on D* and have access to D*'s subscriber base, then they negotiate a contract based on those factors.

[hasan]

I'm not talking about "manufacturers". Maybe I've said it wrong. I mean the programming providers like HDNET, HBO sometimes, or HGTV (not a good example, but they will be HD in D* soon) I mean if I am sponsoring 10 minutes of a show on HDNET. And they are being shown with the mpeg-4 compression then only the people with D* box can see the mpeg-4. So my commercial doesn't go out to as many people as non-mpeg4. I would think that would be a significant amount of people. Enough to say, like I'm Budweiser, I'm not paying as much for a commercial if it going to be broadcast mpeg-4 because not very many people will see it.

There is no shortage of MPEG-4 receivers. Any customer who wants mpeg-4 is only a phone call/internet connect away from having one. By the time D* gets to doing everything they want in MPEG-4, they will be upgrading people as fast as they are willing to pay for it.

Given promotions, special pricing, and other incentives, it couldn't be (and won't be) any easier to get an mpeg-4 compatible rx from D*. The whole argument is specious.

Where to put the new dish and potential site related problems are much more an issue than the rx itself. (because you need a broader sky view to get the new mpeg-4 birds when they go up)

Let's say you want to purchase a satellite based weather service. You get their receiver...and no other...you want the service, you pay and take the receiver they give you. They don't open up their hardware to multiple providers either. You don't have a choice, once you commit to a specific satellite weather service company.

We need more HR20 bugs so we can talk about real (as opposed to theoretical, and utterly unimportant) issues.:D

[hr20manray]

There is no shortage of MPEG-4 receivers. Any customer who wants mpeg-4 is only a phone call/internet connect away from having one. By the time D* gets to doing everything they want in MPEG-4, they will be upgrading people as fast as they are willing to pay for it.

Given promotions, special pricing, and other incentives, it couldn't be (and won't be) any easier to get an mpeg-4 compatible rx from D*. The whole argument is specious.

Where to put the new dish and potential site related problems are much more an issue than the rx itself. (because you need a broader sky view to get the new mpeg-4 birds when they go up)

Let's say you want to purchase a satellite based weather service. You get their receiver...and no other...you want the service, you pay and take the receiver they give you. They don't open up their hardware to multiple providers either. You don't have a choice, once you commit to a specific satellite weather service company.

We need more HR20 bugs so we can talk about real (as opposed to theoretical, and utterly unimportant) issues.:D

Well, you have plenty of them.

[Earl Bonovich]

I'm sorry you don't see my point, but I've explained it as well a I can. So either I don't have a point or I can't express it to you. But this started when I read this line "No other company is authorized to make new hardware that can access the DirecTV signal." from Earl. This does not mention mpeg4 it says 'the signal'. That is what didn't seem right to me.

"Technically" speaking... this has been the case for 11+ years now.
DirecTV had to authorize any manufacturer to build any component that access their signal.

This includes the Receivers, the Dishes, and the Multiswitches.

So while in the past, the receivers offered different features, then say the next box... DirecTV still had to authorize that box to be built... You couldn't just "build" something to access the signal, and pop in an access card.

There is no doubt part of this "change" was to make Support easier. With now 16 Million subscribers, trying to support all these different type of boxes has got to be difficult. Different menu's different information in those menus... Different features.

So while I understand the want to have a "Sony" receiver... I just don't see it happening again, the way it was in the past.

[Earl Bonovich]

Well, you have plenty of them.

We do?

[hr20manray]

"Technically" speaking... this has been the case for 11+ years now.
DirecTV had to authorize any manufacturer to build any component that access their signal.

This includes the Receivers, the Dishes, and the Multiswitches.

So while in the past, the receivers offered different features, then say the next box... DirecTV still had to authorize that box to be built... You couldn't just "build" something to access the signal, and pop in an access card.

There is no doubt part of this "change" was to make Support easier. With now 16 Million subscribers, trying to support all these different type of boxes has got to be difficult. Different menu's different information in those menus... Different features.

So while I understand the want to have a "Sony" receiver... I just don't see it happening again, the way it was in the past.

Thanks for a thoughtful and precise reply. I was afraid I would get lambasted for asking this question, (I really am not anti-D*) but what you are saying (support, different menus) I can understand. I also know that D* has certain rights as well as the customers. My position was: I didn't want to be here fighting bugs with this receiver 6 months from now and not have an alternative to turn to as a customer. Certainly one can understand that.

[SuperTech1]

IMHO, you are going to see exclusive MPEG-4 channels as soon as this year.

Even though a lot of the channels will simulcast down to their SD counterpart.. There are most likely going to be some similar to DiscoveryHD that have a different lineup for their HD offering.

You would know better than I, but I find it unlikely that it would include any "popular" content that might exclude a large portion of D*'s viewers.

[Earl Bonovich]

My position was: I didn't want to be here fighting bugs with this receiver 6 months from now and not have an alternative to turn to as a customer. Certainly one can understand that.

I can understand that... but what you also have to realize... that in the last 6 months... the HR20 is not the box it was.... Heck it is not even the same box it was a month ago.

While there are still issues... their volume of their occurence (at least being reported) and their impact magnitude, has not matched in the increase volume of users here.

(Our membership and participation values have gone up sharply, while the "reports" of issues have diminished... )... While that is not always an accurate reflection, that is the only reflection we have. (aka... someone will soon post that "don't think that... some people are just tired of posting"... )

[Tom Robertson]

It seems there is a sub-thread regarding "being on MPEG4" and how that affects various groups of people.

Some things to remember:
cable networks get their money from two streams: ad sales based upon viewership estimates and from service providers based on per household.
service providers get their money from a number of streams: channels that pay for carriage (shopping channels) and sbuscription fees being some of the biggest. (PPV and VOD are lumped into that for this discussion.)
advertisers want sales of their product.

So all three groups really are motivated to get the product (TV shows) in front of as many eyes as possible. And if DIRECTV could flip a switch and turn on HD content in all 16million homes today, you KNOW they'd doit. :)

But this has been more than 14 years in the making as DIRECTV filed some of its first Ka-band requests in 1993. Yesterday, HD was a 2ton gorilla far enough away to appear as a minor blip on the landscape. Today, its a 2ton gorilla racing towards us, but still not yet in every home. Tomorrow, everyone will have it, and every advertiser will be producing HD commercials. Between today and tomorrow, there will be interesting transitions where there won't be enough of "something", content, STBs, bandwidth, or TVs; but all that will be short-term. Anything that creates more eyes to see ads, is a very good thing.

(And any DVR that lets me skip past them painlessly is an ever better thing...) :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Earl Bonovich]

You would know better than I, but I find it unlikely that it would include any "popular" content that might exclude a large portion of D*'s viewers.

Based on some announcements in the past...
They are working on "Voom" type channels, that dont' have an SD counter part.

Also some newer PPV type offerings (which won't have an SD counter part)...

There probably won't be many... but just the fact that it is HD... and only available in HD via an MPEG-4 signal...

For example.. "Planet Earth" on Discovery is going to be an amazing program, regardless of HD or SD... but in HD it is going to be "that" much better.

[jimb726]

You would know better than I, but I find it unlikely that it would include any "popular" content that might exclude a large portion of D*'s viewers.

By its own design a large portion of the viewers are excluded from channels like, UHD, Discovery HD, HDNET, and the other channels that are HD only. Out of the 16 million subscribers, how many are utilizing the HD content available to them? 1/3, 1/2? :confused: I dont know the answer, I am not trying to guess either, but I think that a big portion of their subscriber base does not have HD tv's or plans to get one in the next few months either.

[SuperTech1]

Based on some announcements in the past...
They are working on "Voom" type channels, that dont' have an SD counter part.

Also some newer PPV type offerings (which won't have an SD counter part)...

There probably won't be many... but just the fact that it is HD... and only available in HD via an MPEG-4 signal...

For example.. "Planet Earth" on Discovery is going to be an amazing program, regardless of HD or SD... but in HD it is going to be "that" much better.

I follow you...

A little incentive to "go HD" never hurts. :)

[Tom Robertson]

I can understand that... but what you also have to realize... that in the last 6 months... the HR20 is not the box it was.... Heck it is not even the same box it was a month ago.

While there are still issues... their volume of their occurence (at least being reported) and their impact magnitude, has not matched in the increase volume of users here.

(Our membership and participation values have gone up sharply, while the "reports" of issues have diminished... )... While that is not always an accurate reflection, that is the only reflection we have. (aka... someone will soon post that "don't think that... some people are just tired of posting"... )

Ok, I'll bite. Some people are just tired of posting. :) And some people are just gettin' started. Lots of them based on the attendance at CEs and the forums. And still, major catastrophe type reports have diminished tremendously! This is all very good. Work to be done yet, absolutely. But headed in the right direction.

Cheers,
Tom

[lguvenoz]

I always find it interesting when people want alternatives to the HR20. I personally would love choices, but don't entirely hang that blame on D*. The content providers all are having heartburn over letting users digitally record and playback HD content.

CableCard has been far from successful at getting around this, and D* is just as hampered. I keep hoping things will loosen up a bit, and maybe if D* develops their rumored tuner card you will see companies like Sony producing Media Center units for D* that offer alternatives.