Cloudy left and right bar on ViP622 w/ Samsung ln-5296

[trekker76]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie here am having an issue with my new ViP 622 on my Samsung LN5296D. When switching between channels (or in dark scenes) there is a very noticable cloudy bar on the left and right of the screen! But this is not there when viewing a DVD or for that matter when I switched channels on my old regular SD Dish Network receiver . So I know this is not a TV issue that some Sammy's experience (and this is too well-defined to be mura). I called Dish network customer support but they were clueless and have scheduled a tech call. Obviously, I'm NOT talking about the solid gray bars of the stretch/normal/gray bar feature.

I am connecting via HDMI, FWIW.

Here are two screenshots -- first of a DVD paused right before a drak/black

Second screenshot is of Dishnetwork. I get the same bars in a CD channel (e.g. 981 CD 32) as well.


Any help would be appreciated!

[MadScientist]

Is it a gost image? Do you see it when the tv is in 16x9? It could be image burn. Do you watch a lot of tv with the balck bars on the side?

I may be off, just trying to help. But others in the know will help more.

[trekker76]

Is it a gost image? Do you see it when the tv is in 16x9? It could be image burn. Do you watch a lot of tv with the balck bars on the side?

I may be off, just trying to help. But others in the know will help more.

But the TV is LCD ... and I watch mostly in 16:9.

TV's 3 weeks old and I got the 622 DishHD this week.

[Ron Barry]

What are you 622 HDTV output set to and what is your zoom mode? Also, where is the picture that should go along with the channel? Do you see any ghosting on the sides when watching an HD channel?

Interesting.

[trekker76]

What are you 622 HDTV output set to and what is your zoom mode? Also, where is the picture that should go along with the channel? Do you see any ghosting on the sides when watching an HD channel?

Interesting.

1080i. ZOom mode is normal and yes I see the clouds in HD channels when viewing a dark scene on Dish.

When watching a dark scene in DVD or on my Wii its fine.

[Ron Barry]

I assume it is 1080i and 16x9. That is odd. So you get the cloudyness when watching a 16x9 content? Is this both on HDMI and Component? This is strange one. Might have a bad box.

[Jim5506]

The channel he photod was 4X3. Perhaps the TV shows grey bars outside the black zone of a 4X3 picture. Mine is adjustable to either black or grey.

[Ron Barry]

I thought that too Jim... but they don't look like any gray bars I have seen and he indicated the cloudyness over a 16x9 HD picture. At least that is how I read it. Would be interesting to see what a ESPNHD shot looks like.

It Goes away with DVD so wondering if this is input dependent. Was this always that way or did it just appear. It does look sort of like a 4x3 picture with the content outside of the 4x3 way turned up.

[ssmith10pn]

Is the 622 going through an AVR or is it connected directly to the TV via HDMI?

I would like to see a screen shot of a 16:9 HD picture.

My guess is it's a TV setting when the TV senses 480i broadcast.

[trekker76]

Is the 622 going through an AVR or is it connected directly to the TV via HDMI?

I would like to see a screen shot of a 16:9 HD picture.

My guess is it's a TV setting when the TV senses 480i broadcast.

622 is connected directly to the TV via HDMI. I have not checked with Component cables but will do.

Here are a couple of shots of Ocean's 11 on TNT HD 16:9.

[trekker76]

Is the 622 going through an AVR or is it connected directly to the TV via HDMI?

I would like to see a screen shot of a 16:9 HD picture.

My guess is it's a TV setting when the TV senses 480i broadcast.

For comparison, here are a few screenshots of other sources (PC VGA, SD DVD upscaled to 1080i via HDMI) below which do not have the white/gray area on the left and right.

[ssmith10pn]

Thats a real head scratcher there.
Try moving Dish to different HDMI input of swap to component.

[Ron Barry]

If you have multiple HDMI inputs, it would be interesting to see if the problem travels with the 622 by swapping cables. Also interested if component shows it. I assume this is with all content. Some TVs has individual settings for inputs. I would check those but based on your posts my guess is you have already done it.

I would try and input swap. If the problem moves then I would suspected a bad 622... What you are seeing is by no means normal. If you have component.. Do try it.

[trekker76]

If you have multiple HDMI inputs, it would be interesting to see if the problem travels with the 622 by swapping cables. Also interested if component shows it. I assume this is with all content. Some TVs has individual settings for inputs. I would check those but based on your posts my guess is you have already done it.

I would try and input swap. If the problem moves then I would suspected a bad 622... What you are seeing is by no means normal. If you have component.. Do try it.


All right, so Dish tech visited today and were unable to resolve the issue :( We switched HDMI cables and input and the cloudiness remained. HOWEVER, it goes away with Component.

Thoughts? I am going to try to escalate this with Dish. In the meanwhile I'm stuck with component. How much is the image quality worse on Component for the 622 as compared to HDMI?

Trekker

[wje]

This has been debated endlessly. The summary: depends upon your equipment, but generally the difference between HDMI and component is either very small or nonexistent. One qualifier - use decent cables for component (that doesn't mean Monster cables!). It's an analog signal, and cable quality makes a lot more difference than it does with a digital signal.

[trekker76]

All right, so Dish tech visited today and were unable to resolve the issue :( We switched HDMI cables and input and the cloudiness remained. HOWEVER, it goes away with Component.

Thoughts? I am going to try to escalate this with Dish. In the meanwhile I'm stuck with component. How much is the image quality worse on Component for the 622 as compared to HDMI?

Trekker

Forgot to mention that the Dish techie switched out a new 622 as well and that didn't make a difference :/

[trekker76]

This has been debated endlessly. The summary: depends upon your equipment, but generally the difference between HDMI and component is either very small or nonexistent. One qualifier - use decent cables for component (that doesn't mean Monster cables!). It's an analog signal, and cable quality makes a lot more difference than it does with a digital signal.

What recourse do I have with Dish about this? I am paying for a service that I'm not getting? am I eligible for a discount or something since they accept they are unable to resolve the issue and its not a fault with the TV?

Trekker

[Ron Barry]

Have you checked that particular TV input with another source like a DVD? Not just the TV but that particular Input. Also, Might want to wait until you get L4.01. There is an HDMI test button that might provide some info?


WHen you check inputs, make sure you are using the same resolution. IF you have a DVD player. Compare your 622 at the same resolution so you are comparing apples to apples and give the best chance of ruling out an bad inputs.

Since the 622 was swapped and no difference it is going to be hard to get Dish to do anything. There is a lot of people using HDMI and you are the first report of what you are experience.

Oh.. what is your TV make and model. Perhaps someone here has the same configuration and can indicate if they are having the same problem or not.

[trekker76]

Have you checked that particular TV input with another source like a DVD? Not just the TV but that particular Input. Also, Might want to wait until you get L4.01. There is an HDMI test button that might provide some info?


WHen you check inputs, make sure you are using the same resolution. IF you have a DVD player. Compare your 622 at the same resolution so you are comparing apples to apples and give the best chance of ruling out an bad inputs.

Since the 622 was swapped and no difference it is going to be hard to get Dish to do anything. There is a lot of people using HDMI and you are the first report of what you are experience.

Oh.. what is your TV make and model. Perhaps someone here has the same configuration and can indicate if they are having the same problem or not.


Samsung LN5296D 52" 1080p LCD. And yes i've tested the same HDMI input with a DVD upscaling to 1080i (see pictures above) and cannot reproduce the issue.

When is L4.01 coming out?

Trekker

[ssmith10pn]

Sounds to me like it would be best for Dish to cut their losses and toss you to the curb.
If they replaced the receiver and it still does it, guess what? It ain't the receiver! :grin:

[Ron Barry]

L4.01 is currently on limited release... If all goes well then it will start to be released to a wider audience...

Hmm this is a strange one. Really hope someone has this same TV and will pipe in with their experience..

Does the problem still occur when set to 720p and 480p? curious....To me it sure looks like a TV issue, but given the DVD does not show this same thing is interesting for sure.

When you say upscaling to 1080i? are you saying your DVD player upscales and sends it 1080i? If your DVD player does not upscale to 1080i (lots dont) then that would be a difference and you would need to test the 622 at 480p. Would be curious if the problem still shows at 720p and 480p.

Strange one for sure... having the HDMI test in L4.01 might help troubleshoot your issue...

[trekker76]

L4.01 is currently on limited release... If all goes well then it will start to be released to a wider audience...

Hmm this is a strange one. Really hope someone has this same TV and will pipe in with their experience..

Does the problem still occur when set to 720p and 480p? curious....To me it sure looks like a TV issue, but given the DVD does not show this same thing is interesting for sure.

When you say upscaling to 1080i? are you saying your DVD player upscales and sends it 1080i? If your DVD player does not upscale to 1080i (lots dont) then that would be a difference and you would need to test the 622 at 480p. Would be curious if the problem still shows at 720p and 480p.

Strange one for sure... having the HDMI test in L4.01 might help troubleshoot your issue...


Yes I've tested with the 622 set at 480p and 720p and the issue persists. And yes my Sony DVD player is doing the upscaling to 1080i via HDMI.

I seriously doubt this is a TV issue because of not showing up in other inputs and other HDMI sources. I would still go ahead and give Samsung customer support a call. Anyone on the forum have a Samsung LCS 4696 or 5296 with the Dish 622?

Thx
Trekker

[koralis]

But this is not there when viewing a DVD or for that matter when I switched channels on my old regular SD Dish Network receiver . So I know this is not a TV issue that some Sammy's experience (and this is too well-defined to be mura).


Each input on a Samsung can be independantly programmed for contrast, brightness, etc. Just because the DVD player looks good on Input X doesn't mean that Input Y will be the same.

Your Component or HDMI input that you're using for the 622 is waaaaaay too bright. The sidebars and center are different shades of black because you're viewing an SD channel.

The center is the actual signal of the channel, the sidebars are padding being put out by the 622. If your black levels were set correctly though, they'd both be nearly indistinguishable.

Btw, the DVD pictures you show aren't helpful because you cropped off the sidebars. you're not showing the TV's 16:9 aspect ratio, but only the picture in the middle which contains the 4:3 image. Actually, I take that back... I see that you're stretching the 4:3 image to fill the screen on the trek dvd? The planet is oval. Turn off stretching and see what happens.


I know all about tweaking these pictures of this because I adjusted my own Samsung HLR-5668 and took days tweaking in the service menu to get the picture where I wanted it. :) This basic problem can probably be dealt with just by turning down the brightness so that the black and near-black are close enough that it's not jarring.


edit:

This picture is interesting though...
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7671&d=1174174267

I'm inclined to think that the gradual brightening at the edges (as opposed to the crisp bars) is due to flash on a slightly rounded tube screen. Is that correct?

Try outputting to the same HDMI port that the DVD was using. Try using the DVD's HDMI cable for the 622 as well.

[trekker76]

Each input on a Samsung can be independantly programmed for contrast, brightness, etc. Just because the DVD player looks good on Input X doesn't mean that Input Y will be the same.

Your Component or HDMI input that you're using for the 622 is waaaaaay too bright. The sidebars and center are different shades of black because you're viewing an SD channel.

The center is the actual signal of the channel, the sidebars are padding being put out by the 622. If your black levels were set correctly though, they'd both be nearly indistinguishable.

Btw, the DVD pictures you show aren't helpful because you cropped off the sidebars. you're not showing the TV's 16:9 aspect ratio, but only the picture in the middle which contains the 4:3 image. Actually, I take that back... I see that you're stretching the 4:3 image to fill the screen on the trek dvd? The planet is oval. Turn off stretching and see what happens.


I know all about tweaking these pictures of this because I adjusted my own Samsung HLR-5668 and took days tweaking in the service menu to get the picture where I wanted it. :) This basic problem can probably be dealt with just by turning down the brightness so that the black and near-black are close enough that it's not jarring.


edit:

This picture is interesting though...
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7671&d=1174174267

I'm inclined to think that the gradual brightening at the edges (as opposed to the crisp bars) is due to flash on a slightly rounded tube screen. Is that correct?

Try outputting to the same HDMI port that the DVD was using. Try using the DVD's HDMI cable for the 622 as well.

Yup I've tried exactly that. But the clouds on the left and right are visible on HD channels as well -- if you look at one of the screenshots I posted it is from Ocean's 11 on TNTHD.

Edit: Just noticed your comment on the Ocean's 11 picture. Yes I've used the same cable that the DVD uses and the same port for the 622. What do you mean rounded tube? The TV is LCD...

What I'll do is post component vs HDMI pics from the 622 at the same brightness contrast settings.

Trekker

[tnsprin]

Yup I've tried exactly that. But the clouds on the left and right are visible on HD channels as well -- if you look at one of the screenshots I posted it is from Ocean's 11 on TNTHD.

Edit: Just noticed your comment on the Ocean's 11 picture. Yes I've used the same cable that the DVD uses and the same port for the 622. What do you mean rounded tube? The TV is LCD...

What I'll do is post component vs HDMI pics from the 622 at the same brightness contrast settings.

Trekker

Do you have any other HD signals to test? It sounds like a problem with the Samung TV.

[koralis]

Yup I've tried exactly that. But the clouds on the left and right are visible on HD channels as well -- if you look at one of the screenshots I posted it is from Ocean's 11 on TNTHD.

Edit: Just noticed your comment on the Ocean's 11 picture. Yes I've used the same cable that the DVD uses and the same port for the 622. What do you mean rounded tube? The TV is LCD...

What I'll do is post component vs HDMI pics from the 622 at the same brightness contrast settings.

Trekker



I still think the brightness is a bit high, which would take care of the sidebars for the most part, but the lightening towards the edges shouldn't be happening.

LCDs are backlit from a light source and it looks very much like two lights on the side of the frame for illumination that are just too bright. It could be a side-effect of having the brightness turned way up though (washing out the edges near the lights.)


If not, then I'm about out of ideas then. I suppose it's possible that you got a bad 622, but I can't think of much in the way of electronics that would have that sort of hazy effect either in the 622 or the tv...

[koralis]

I found this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783988&page=2&pp=60


If you take a look at the 5296 owner's thread, everyone who's getting a panel manufactured in 2007 has no clouding unless you turn the backlight and brightness up to the point where your eyes would explode if there wasnt an all black screen. For normal viewing settings, there is NO clouding or mura. I'll expect these panels to perform the same.



and this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustRatingReview.asp?Item=N82E16889102115

Other Thoughts: This is a great television, but these large LCD's, including Sonys and Sharps, suffer from ghosting, the technical term is AREA-MURA and it's when backlight bleeds through the screen due to insufficient manufacturing standards. What you will see are white clouds during dark scenes in movies and it's very annoying. I've had to replace two units already and waiting for a third, be careful!



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-783988.html

I had a 5296 and the pic was outstanding in detail, it had Mura though.
IMO, overscan is a minor problem if a problem at all, more a gamer's concern.



this seems to be a pretty common problem with this TV, and the brightness of the backlight appears largely to blame.

[ssmith10pn]

I found this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783988&page=2&pp=60




and this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustRatingReview.asp?Item=N82E16889102115



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-783988.html



this seems to be a pretty common problem with this TV, and the brightness of the backlight appears largely to blame.


Bravo! Bravo!
Now this guy can stop pointing the finger at Dish with coments like:

All right, so Dish tech visited today and were unable to resolve the issue We switched HDMI cables and input and the cloudiness remained. HOWEVER, it goes away with Component.


Thoughts? I am going to try to escalate this with Dish. In the meanwhile I'm stuck with component. How much is the image quality worse on Component for the 622 as compared to HDMI?


What recourse do I have with Dish about this? I am paying for a service that I'm not getting? am I eligible for a discount or something since they accept they are unable to resolve the issue and its not a fault with the TV?


I seriously doubt this is a TV issue because of not showing up in other inputs and other HDMI sources. I would still go ahead and give Samsung customer support a call. Anyone on the forum have a Samsung LCS 4696 or 5296 with the Dish 622?

[trekker76]

Bravo! Bravo!
Now this guy can stop pointing the finger at Dish with coments like:


Guys chill pill ... I'm not pointing fingers at Dish I just want to resovle this issue.

So Koralis I'm very much up-to-date on the Mura issues on the 52 LCDs on AVSforums etc ... but the thing is Mura shows up for them on ALL inputs. My TV is a January 2007 manufacture and it does not have virtually any clouding apart from the Dish signal.

As I said, I WILL call Samsung tech support tomorrow as well. As Sherlokc Holmes said, "when you've eliminated all the possibilities, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

[trekker76]

Do you have any other HD signals to test? It sounds like a problem with the Samung TV.

No the only other output I've tested with HDMI is regular DVDs which my Sony player upscalies to 1080i. But the Samsung LCD converts ALL inputs to its native 1080p so it should not really matter? Or would it?

Here are two screen shots of a space scene from Deep Impact on TNT HD. One is via 622 connected via HDMI, the other through component. For both of these the display settings are:

contrast: 95
brightness: 50
sharp: 62
color: 60
color tone: warm1

[ssmith10pn]

Well HDMI is brighter than component in my testing so maybe that's why.

DVD is 480p at best. Fooling the TV into thinking it's a 1080i picture doesn't give you an apples to apples compairison of 2 HD signals.

How do you take 720x640 and magically make it 1920 x 1080? I guess you could take the existing information and double it?

Throw a blu-ray player on there and I'll bet it will do the same thing.

Did you try knocking down the brightness on the HDMI source?

[trekker76]

Well HDMI is brighter than component in my testing so maybe that's why.

DVD is 480p at best. Fooling the TV into thinking it's a 1080i picture doesn't give you an apples to apples compairison of 2 HD signals.

How do you take 720x640 and magically make it 1920 x 1080? I guess you could take the existing information and double it?

Throw a blu-ray player on there and I'll bet it will do the same thing.

Did you try knocking down the brightness on the HDMI source?

I've scheduled a service call with Samsung. Will let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks for all the input!

Trekk

[koralis]

contrast: 95
brightness: 50
sharp: 62
color: 60
color tone: warm1


Like I'd said previously, each input has its own service menu settings, which is an added level of control (that they hide from users!) Apparently the HDMI port has a brighter bias than the component port, so the same device (622) is brighter on that port even with all of the user-mode settings identical.


To get into service mode on my samsung dlp, you turn to the input that you want to adjust, then hitting power-mute-1-8-2-power (I think.)

For the LCD it looks like you might do this (from off):

http://www.pixelbeat.org/systems/LE27T51B/


For this and many Samsung TVs while in standby mode hit the info, menu, mute, power buttons to get to the service menu. I was presented with the following.



you May want to compare values in this menu (specifically SubBright and SubContrast)
http://www.pixelbeat.org/systems/LE27T51B/sm/3.jpg


And this page for the component:
http://www.pixelbeat.org/systems/LE27T51B/sm/6.1.jpg



But if you have a samsung service guy coming, they should be able to set all of that properly. Basically that input is just too bright for the 622. You could also dial it down further in user-mode to compensate.


Good luck!

[gboot]

No the only other output I've tested with HDMI is regular DVDs which my Sony player upscalies to 1080i. But the Samsung LCD converts ALL inputs to its native 1080p so it should not really matter? Or would it?

Here are two screen shots of a space scene from Deep Impact on TNT HD. One is via 622 connected via HDMI, the other through component. For both of these the display settings are:

contrast: 95
brightness: 50
sharp: 62
color: 60
color tone: warm1

I recently upgraded to the 622 and a Sharp 52" LCD, I kept my old 921 connected to the TV using component to watch some old recordings no problems with white bars. With the 622 connected via the HDMI port, I get the same areas on the sides of the screen with the white haze as you do with the Samsung.
I then connected the 622 using both the HDMI and component connections and flipped back and forth bewteen inputs on the TV. The easiest way to test was to turn the 622 off and use the black screen with the floating 622 logo. I went and set the various picture settings the same for both inputs (user menu only, no service mode) On the HDMI connection I get white haze on the sides and grey in the middle, flipping to component consistant black edge to edge.
By dialing down the brightness significantly, the HDMI image approaches the black of component. I need to play with it more but my initial take is that I don't think I'll be able to get as good a picture from the HDMI interface.