Need help with splitter/multiswitch config

[jaybertx]

I'm trying to hook up two WB68s in parallel using wide-band splitters. They were run in series before and it worked fine until I got a second HR20 and hooked it up to the second WB68.

Here is my config:

Dish---- 4 splitters ----1 ft cables--- WB68
***************---25 ft cables-- WB68



The first input from the dish is connected to the splitter and then to each of the first ports of the WB682, 2nd to 2nd, and so on but it won't work. The minute I plug the splitters in to both multiswitches, I lose HD locals on BOTH multiswitches. I've plugged in to both sides of the splitters individually and it works fine.

Have I done something wrong? I've tried searching and trying to find a possible reason for

I bought 4 "Wide band power passing splitters" that pass power on both ports. The frequency on the splitters shows from 5 - 2300MHz.

Did I just buy the wrong splitters or do I have something hooked up wrong? Is the switch that is 25 feet away too far? The reason it is set that was is that I have two attic spaces separated by a cathedral ceiling so there is a switch in each attic space.

Any help is very much appreciated!

[Earl Bonovich]

That is a very long way to go, for an unpowered multiswitch (especially with a splitter in there)

I would consider possible getting a Sonora Signal locker in between the splitters and the dish.

[urnote96]

Make sure that you have both cables from the splitters go to corrosponding inputs on each WB68


ane evenly split the recivers on each wb68.....

[rminsk]

I bought 4 "Wide band power passing splitters" that pass power on both ports. The frequency on the splitters shows from 5 - 2300MHz. You need splitters that pass power on one port not both. The WB68 uses tones to signal the multiswitch internal to the dish for which nsatellite to use. If the "tones" are out of phase when you pass power they can cancel each other out.

[jaybertx]

If I get the Sonora signal locker, would I still need different splitters anyway? If so, can I just trying with the splitters or would I just be wasting time? Without the splitters I get excellent signal strength.

I thought everything that I read said that I needed power passing on both ports. DOH! :nono:

[Earl Bonovich]

You would still need the splitters, if you want to have two multiswitches.

The Sonora, will just provide the necessary power to the dish, and lock the 4 outputs as needed (instead of relying on the power from one of the passive multiswitches to do it)

[jaybertx]

You would still need the splitters, if you want to have two multiswitches.

I know that I still need the splitters but would I need different splitters or does the Sonora take the "power passing" aspect out of it altogether? I only ask because of rminsk's comment about one port power passing splitters.

I'm sorry, I thought I had a handle on all of this but now I'm just a tad confused.

Thanks again for all of your help!

[Earl Bonovich]

I know that I still need the splitters but would I need different splitters or does the Sonora take the "power passing" aspect out of it altogether? I only ask because of rminsk's comment about one port power passing splitters.

I'm sorry, I thought I had a handle on all of this but now I'm just a tad confused.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Ahh...

Ummm... You can probably use the splitters you have.
As the Sonora takes care of all the power, and the communication to dish.

[cruise350]

Or, couldn't he just get a wb6X16 multiswitch and avoid all of these hassles

[veryoldschool]

Or, couldn't he just get a wb6X16 multiswitch and avoid all of these hassles
See: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=83166

[Tom Robertson]

You need splitters that pass power on one port not both. The WB68 uses tones to signal the multiswitch internal to the dish for which nsatellite to use. If the "tones" are out of phase when you pass power they can cancel each other out.

Tones are passed by both sides even if DC is not. The local installers supplied dc power passing on both legs and they work fine here--but the lengths are short on both sides. (The local supervisor had to call D* tech support to find out what the supported splitters where.)

If by chance the tones do exactly cancel each other out, you'd lose 110°, 119°, and 103°.

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

Tones are passed by both sides even if DC is not. The local installers supplied dc power passing on both legs and they work fine here--but the lengths are short on both sides. (The local supervisor had to call D* tech support to find out what the supported splitters where.)

If by chance the tones do exactly cancel each other out, you'd lose 110°, 119°, and 103°.

Cheers,
Tom
To "phase match" the splitters: use the exact same length of coax to each. 22 kHz will be a fairly long wavelength compared to RF. FWIW

[Tom Robertson]

To "phase match" the splitters: use the exact same length of coax to each. 22 kHz will be a fairly long wavelength compared to RF. FWIW

True...but this only applies if the sources of tone are sync'ed to a common clock in the first place. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[carl6]

If you are using two WB68's in parallel without a Sonora insterter, then you need power passing on both ports of the splitters. If you have something that locks the four lines to the proper voltages, then you can get away with one-side power passing (on the side that has the voltages locked). Because the WB68 is not powered, there is no other way for the proper voltage to get to the dish than through the multiswitch, and if both ports of the splitters are not power passing, then it is possible to have one multiswitch with only 13 volt inputs and the other with one or more 18 volt inputs that are not getting passed.

Carl

[Tom Robertson]

If you are using two WB68's in parallel without a Sonora insterter, then you need power passing on both ports of the splitters. If you have something that locks the four lines to the proper voltages, then you can get away with one-side power passing (on the side that has the voltages locked). Because the WB68 is not powered, there is no other way for the proper voltage to get to the dish than through the multiswitch, and if both ports of the splitters are not power passing, then it is possible to have one multiswitch with only 13 volt inputs and the other with one or more 18 volt inputs that are not getting passed.

Carl

While I've not tried it in practice, it seems to me that if one aligns the four inputs from the two switches correctly (cuz you have to if you want things to work, anyway), you should be able to use either dual power passing or single power passing--so long as there are receivers plugged in on both switches all the time. :)

So best to stick with dual power passing, WB616, or a power locker.

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

True...but this only applies if the sources of tone are sync'ed to a common clock in the first place. :)
Cheers,
Tom
:crying: so all of my receivers aren't phase locked....:crying:
Damn, how am I going to be able to target those incoming threats..:crying:

[bobnielsen]

Fairly long? At 22 kHz, the phase sensitivity will be about .01 degree/foot. Matching won't be a problem.

[Tom Robertson]

VOS,

I gotta believe you managed to take home a few "toys" that the government was going to throw away over the years. Surely you can track everything except the latest plane we can't talk about that isn't from the skunkworks... :)

Cheers

[veryoldschool]

VOS,
I gotta believe you managed to take home a few "toys" that the government was going to throw away over the years. Surely you can track everything except the latest plane we can't talk about that isn't from the skunkworks... :)
Cheers
Sure, I just use the D* call center and map out those that are having troubles. If it isn't a stealth bird, then it's using jamming and all of the dish owners will be screaming.
Before you nuke someone you want to get them really PO'd...take their TV shows away. :lol:

[carl6]

While I've not tried it in practice, it seems to me that if one aligns the four inputs from the two switches correctly (cuz you have to if you want things to work, anyway), you should be able to use either dual power passing or single power passing--so long as there are receivers plugged in on both switches all the time. :)

So best to stick with dual power passing, WB616, or a power locker.

Cheers,
Tom

Tom,
Let's say you have two WB68's in parallel with single port power passing splitters. All of the tuners connected to the first WB68 (the one that passes power) happen to be on channels that are on odd transponders, so all of those happen to have 13 volts on them. Now tune a receiver on the second WB68 that does not pass power to a channel on an even transponder. The 18 volts will never pass through to the dish, and also is not passing from the first switch.

Carl

[veryoldschool]

Tom,
Let's say you have two WB68's in parallel with single port power passing splitters. All of the tuners connected to the first WB68 (the one that passes power) happen to be on channels that are on odd transponders, so all of those happen to have 13 volts on them. Now tune a receiver on the second WB68 that does not pass power to a channel on an even transponder. The 18 volts will never pass through to the dish, and also is not passing from the first switch.
Carl
I'm not Tom, but not much stops me from posting, so....
Carl, you're right. Without a Sonora locker, the splitters need to get the DC from both inputs to have all of the tuners "tune". :)

[jaybertx]

So I was correct with the power passing on both ports then? Sweet.

Would it help if I brought both of the multiswitches to within 1 foot of the splitters instead of one being 25 feet away?

Or could it be that maybe I screwed up and I don't have the the cables that go to the switches in the correct order?

My 12 yo son was the one that helped me determine which cable was which so we may have not gotten it right.

[veryoldschool]

So I was correct with the power passing on both ports then? Sweet.

Would it help if I brought both of the multiswitches to within 1 foot of the splitters instead of one being 25 feet away?

Or could it be that maybe I screwed up and I don't have the the cables that go to the switches in the correct order?

My 12 yo son was the one that helped me determine which cable was which so we may have not gotten it right.
I'm "coming in late" here BUT what YOU DO need to make sure is: ALL of the inputs to EACH multi-switch go to the SAME input 13V to 13V, 18v to 18V, 13 V 22 kHz to ....get the point? :)

[rminsk]

So I was correct with the power passing on both ports then? Sweet.No, you only pass power on one port not both...

[jaybertx]

If you are using two WB68's in parallel without a Sonora insterter, then you need power passing on both ports of the splitters.

No, you only pass power on one port not both...

Ok... so what's the real deal? :)

[jaybertx]

I'm "coming in late" here BUT what YOU DO need to make sure is: ALL of the inputs to EACH multi-switch go to the SAME input 13V to 13V, 18v to 18V, 13 V 22 kHz to ....get the point? :)

It's going to be difficult for me to verify the dish. Is that also the case when hooking up from the dish to a single WB68? I'm assuming the installer did that because everything has been working but could that be false also?

[veryoldschool]

It's going to be difficult for me to verify the dish. Is that also the case when hooking up from the dish to a single WB68? I'm assuming the installer did that because everything has been working but could that be false also?
The dish has four outputs. It doesn't matter which of the four is what.
FROM the splitter, you now have eight outputs [4 pairs] so the pairs need to go to the same input on the multi-switches. You can't have a 13V from one and a 18V from the other going into the same splitter. Got it?
As to the splitters & DC passing both or one: think about it. If only one side is passing power then only that side will send the correct [any] power. What about the tuner on the other side? How is it to send the control voltage to have the right transponder? If it can't pass the power..it won't. Now If you used a Sonora "locker" it doesn't matter as the power would come from it [and why it's called a "locker"]. This needs to be between the dish & the splitters so you can see that what passes through the splitters "doesn't matter" in this case.
Any help here?

[Tom Robertson]

No, you only pass power on one port not both...

Have you not been following the thread? Carl6, VOS, et al, have all shown why you need power passing on both sides.

While in theory "most of the time" you might be able to get away with power passing on one side, it just isn't worth the risk. And there is no risk to using the D* supported configuration of power passing on both sides.

Please stop confusing the OP.

Cheers,
Tom

[Tom Robertson]

Ok... so what's the real deal? :)

Carl6 right, use power passing on both sides. Its supported by D*. Power passing on one side will work some times, but not always. (I stand corrected, btw. Thanks Carl and VOS.)

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

Carl6 right, use power passing on both sides. Its supported by D*. Power passing on one side will work some times, but not always. (I stand corrected, btw. Thanks Carl and VOS.)
Cheers,
Tom
The "sometimes" is when the "other" receiver [other multi-switch] is tuned to the same tranponder. If it's not..it ain't tuned. No power.

[veryoldschool]

Fairly long? At 22 kHz, the phase sensitivity will be about .01 degree/foot. Matching won't be a problem.
So: is this in free space or does it account for the dielectric constant of RG-6?
Sorry but I just had to ask, as: .01 would be so much different from .02+ here. :lol:

[texasbrit]

The "sometimes" is when the "other" receiver [other multi-switch] is tuned to the same tranponder. If it's not..it ain't tuned. No power.


Absolutely correct. Using splitters that only pass power on one side is the worst scenario. It will work some of the time, and than at other times you are going to get "searching for signal" on some receivers. If you have a large number of receivers and they are randomly tuned to different satellites and transponder sets it will seem to work just about all the time and diagnosing the problem will be just about impossible.

For anyone who is still not convinced. Imagine a situation where you have two WB68 multiswitches. The four cables from Multiswitch A are connected to the power-passing side of the four splitters. All receivers on Multiswitch A are tuned to the odd transponders on the 101 satellite, so cable 2 from the multiswitch to the splitter has 13v, the other cables have nothing. On multiswitch B, all receivers are also tuned to sat 101, odd transponders, and therefore cable 2 from the multiswitch B to the splitters has 13v, the others have nothing. The 13v on cable 2 from multiswitch B gets to the splitter but because it is on the non power-passing side it does not get thru the splitter. But the dish is getting 13v on cable 2, nothing on the others. Everything works fine. All receivers see 101, odd transponders.

Now I change one receiver on multiswitch B to tune to sat 101, even transponders. The receiver generates 18v, it gets to the multiswitch which puts in on cable 1. So far so good. But when it gets to the splitter, it's on the non power-passing side, so the 18v does not get to the dish, so no 101 even transponders for the receiver...

(I just looked at one of Carl's previous posts, and he said virtually the same thing in many less words, I think I need to take lessons from him!!!)

[jaybertx]

The dish has four outputs. It doesn't matter which of the four is what.
FROM the splitter, you now have eight outputs [4 pairs] so the pairs need to go to the same input on the multi-switches. You can't have a 13V from one and a 18V from the other going into the same splitter. Got it?
As to the splitters & DC passing both or one: think about it. If only one side is passing power then only that side will send the correct [any] power. What about the tuner on the other side? How is it to send the control voltage to have the right transponder? If it can't pass the power..it won't. Now If you used a Sonora "locker" it doesn't matter as the power would come from it [and why it's called a "locker"]. This needs to be between the dish & the splitters so you can see that what passes through the splitters "doesn't matter" in this case.
Any help here?

Ah, I got it. I didn't realize that it didn't matter from the dish. Ok, that's the configuration that I *think* I have now but I will have to get a tone generator to confirm that we got it right. :grin:

Thanks to everyone for all of the help and I'll post back my results. And thanks for clearing up the confusion about the power.

[carl6]

(I just looked at one of Carl's previous posts, and he said virtually the same thing in many less words, I think I need to take lessons from him!!!)

Careful, usually I'm the most verbose:lol:

Carl