No Grounding for Slimline 5LNB Install

[dmr6124]

IRONWOOD came out Saturday to install my new 5LNB dish and HR20.

Everything went pretty smoothly, although he had to do a roof install since some trees interfered with line-of-sight for the new birds. I was just about to sign off on the install when I thought to ask about grounding of the dish and feedline.

He apparently had neglected to bother with this step. I know from my prior experience that he should have installed a grounding block at the point where the dish feedlines enter the attic, and used 10AWG copper wire to connect the block with a ground rod. Now apparently the new (2002) NEC changed requirement to prohibit independent ground rods, and that the ground wire should be connected to the service ground (opposite end of building). I didn't think that running a ground wire thru the house to the other end of the building, thru the attic space over the garage and again thru the wall would be a good solution.

So I refused to signoff on the install. Apparently some Quality Control person is supposed to contact me.

Can someone advise how my new dish should be grounded in accordance with 2002 NEC given the following:

(1) Dish installed on roof at south end of 2 story home.
(2) Feedlines enter thru vent on south wall.
(3) 6x8 multiswitch installed in center of attic above second story.
(4) Dual coax runs from multiswitch to four locations in house.
(5) Electric service panel on garage wall at north end of house. Ground rod below meter on exterior of garage wall.
(6) There exists a way to access the garage attic from the house second story attic by running wire thru a linen closet in the second story. I have used this for coax and telephone wiring.
(7) My plumbing is a mix of copper and PVC. I am on a well and have a septic system, not city sewer and water. So I am unsure if water pipes would make a good ground connection. I have seen conflicting information on the usage of water piping as a ground for the 2002 code.

[davejacobson]

Its hard to give you specific guidence with your situation. NEC code does require a ground wire back to the ground rod by your meter no exception.If its more than 20 ft to the ground rod you can install another ground rod however that rod must be connected to the the ground rod at your meter.The best choice is to have the dish mounted with in reasonable distance to that ground rod.The installer should have mounted the dish on the other side of the house then run the coax to the other side. Its to be easier to run coax with the 20ft ground rule in place. It sounds like you have a real prob with the grounding situation no real easy answers. I would likley move the dish. Pre planning the ground is becomming the most important thing

[Bigfoot365]

Is it acceptable to run over 20 feet by using a larger conductor? I have exactly the same problem. The tech already mounted the dish on my roof and failed to ground it, but it is on the opposite side of the roof from my service entrance and ground rod. I could run the ground through the attic and down to the electrical panel ground block with maybe 30 feet of cable, but not to the ground rod. That would require more cable and running back out through a wall to the rod.

IRONWOOD came out Saturday to install my new 5LNB dish and HR20.

Everything went pretty smoothly, although he had to do a roof install since some trees interfered with line-of-sight for the new birds. I was just about to sign off on the install when I thought to ask about grounding of the dish and feedline.

He apparently had neglected to bother with this step. I know from my prior experience that he should have installed a grounding block at the point where the dish feedlines enter the attic, and used 10AWG copper wire to connect the block with a ground rod. Now apparently the new (2002) NEC changed requirement to prohibit independent ground rods, and that the ground wire should be connected to the service ground (opposite end of building). I didn't think that running a ground wire thru the house to the other end of the building, thru the attic space over the garage and again thru the wall would be a good solution.

So I refused to signoff on the install. Apparently some Quality Control person is supposed to contact me.

Can someone advise how my new dish should be grounded in accordance with 2002 NEC given the following:

(1) Dish installed on roof at south end of 2 story home.
(2) Feedlines enter thru vent on south wall.
(3) 6x8 multiswitch installed in center of attic above second story.
(4) Dual coax runs from multiswitch to four locations in house.
(5) Electric service panel on garage wall at north end of house. Ground rod below meter on exterior of garage wall.
(6) There exists a way to access the garage attic from the house second story attic by running wire thru a linen closet in the second story. I have used this for coax and telephone wiring.
(7) My plumbing is a mix of copper and PVC. I am on a well and have a septic system, not city sewer and water. So I am unsure if water pipes would make a good ground connection. I have seen conflicting information on the usage of water piping as a ground for the 2002 code.

[Milominderbinder2]

Call DIRECTV and tell them. It is not just the distance, it is the gauge of wire and means of grounding.

We have heard horror story after horror story of dishes not being grounded by installers.

Here is the document that we compiled:

Satellite Dish Antenna Grounding Requirements (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=941620#post941620)

It is the same process for 1 LNB, 3 LNB, and 5 LNB dishes.

The most common reaction when people see this is: "They didn't ground my dish..."

- Craig

[bt-rtp]

A satellite installation using a separate ground rod is not allowed unless bonded to the existing building ground with a #6.

Here is a link to another excellent source of information:

http://www.dbsinstall.com/DIY/Grounding-7.asp

You can buy the 8 foot ground rod, #6 copper wire and bonding clamps at Home Depot or Lowe's and properly ground the antenna yourself. That's what I did and I have not had any problems.

I also had an electrician install a Leviton "whole house" Transient Voltage Surge Supressor (TVSS) on the main service panel. It is called a Panel Mounted Multi-Phase Surge Protective Device (SPD), model number 42120-001. See:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=22355&minisite=10028

[glennb]

Why is not grounding a dish such a horror story ?
:confused:

Mine isn't grounded. I haven't had any my dishes grounded for 10 years now. I've never had any problems. I do have the coax lines connected to a grounding block with a ground wire going to a ground rod before it enters the house.

If it's so horrible why isn't DIRECTV forcing the installers to do it ?

[davejacobson]

Grounding is getting to be a "big deal" because direct and dish do require the systems to be grounded per 2005 NEC and the installers are required to follow the code. So they are forcing the installer to do it but some installers are untrained or unwilling to follow the code. I know dish will revoke your install commission for not grounding if they inspect I dont know about direct. Now will your system operate without a ground yes. There can be a static discharge problem and causing recievers to not work, but usually not a problem. There are many topics on grounding why to or why not to but bottom line is the NEC we are required to follow whether you like it or not.

[gregchak]

My dish is mounted to a 10 foot 4x4 wood post which is about 75-100 feet from my house. My coax run underground and then come in by my electrical panel. I have a grounding block there and that is grounded to the main house ground. I posed this question to a guy at home depot in regard to an OTA antenna. He said that since it was mounted to a wood post it did not need to be grounded. I assumed that it would be the same case for my dish. D* installed my slimline in January and the dish was not grounded. My question is, does my dish need to be grounded? And being far from my house and not connected to my house, if it needs to be grounded can I put in a ground rod there and not worry about connecting it back to my main house ground?

[HiDefGator]

The metal dish on the wood post still should be grounded. If you sink a ground rod there it needs to also be connected to the house ground. A 4x4 is way to small for a 5 lnb. I used a 6x6 cut in half and bolted to make a 6x12. I like overkill.

[glennb]

I'm not worried about the NEC dish grounding task force busting me anytime soon.

[aim2pls]

I'm not worried about the NEC dish grounding task force busting me anytime soon.


awwww ... but you dont have a lightning rod now

[l123]

This is for those who know something about physics and is not intended to be exhaustive. If in doubt - call a licensed electrician to check after sat installer.
Remember you are not doing grounding to satisfy the code, but to protect your staff, yourself and your family :

(1) #10 wire minimum from the antenna, mast - warning: installers usually use the "messenger wire" which is not #10 - order them to do it in #10 or else call direcTV and demand correction;
(2) The wire from 1 needs to be connected to a grounding block before entering the house;
(3) The grounding block needs to be connected (#10 wire) to a closest ground
(a) grounding rod - but the grounding rod needs to be connected with wire #6 to the grounding rod at the electric service entrance even if you have to go around the house to accomplish that;
(b) cold water pipe that is 'bonded' (connected) to the house ground that in turn is connected to the grounding rod at the entrance of electric service; the pipe cannot have any electric continuity interruption (eg. even Teflon tape is not acceptable) - warning: it is forbidden to ground to any faucet.

Common errors made by installers:
(a) use of the 'messenger wire' which is attached to the double RG6 cable. That wire is less than gauge 10 (#10);
(b) installation of the grounding block at the antenna instead of the grounding block just before the wires enter the house;
(c) connection to the garden faucet;
(d) connection to a metal pipe without checking its electrical continuity to the house ground.

Goal: to get all components at the same electrical potential at the same moment.

What if not (from least to most painful):
(a) your receiver gets zapped by a lightning that strikes miles away.
.....
.....
(z) your house burns down sooner than you expected.:grin:

BTW:
The grounding as required by the Code(s) is not instead of a lightning rod. The grounding only eliminates relatively high potential differences between the components capable of zapping the equipment without any lightning strikes. If lightning strikes the #10 wire is likely to melt - but hopefully it will show the lightning the way to the earth before melting - the emphasis is on hope.

[Techie]

IRONWOOD came out Saturday to install my new 5LNB dish and HR20.

Everything went pretty smoothly, although he had to do a roof install since some trees interfered with line-of-sight for the new birds. I was just about to sign off on the install when I thought to ask about grounding of the dish and feedline.

He apparently had neglected to bother with this step. I know from my prior experience that he should have installed a grounding block at the point where the dish feedlines enter the attic, and used 10AWG copper wire to connect the block with a ground rod. Now apparently the new (2002) NEC changed requirement to prohibit independent ground rods, and that the ground wire should be connected to the service ground (opposite end of building). I didn't think that running a ground wire thru the house to the other end of the building, thru the attic space over the garage and again thru the wall would be a good solution.

So I refused to signoff on the install. Apparently some Quality Control person is supposed to contact me.

Can someone advise how my new dish should be grounded in accordance with 2002 NEC given the following:

(1) Dish installed on roof at south end of 2 story home.
(2) Feedlines enter thru vent on south wall.
(3) 6x8 multiswitch installed in center of attic above second story.
(4) Dual coax runs from multiswitch to four locations in house.
(5) Electric service panel on garage wall at north end of house. Ground rod below meter on exterior of garage wall.
(6) There exists a way to access the garage attic from the house second story attic by running wire thru a linen closet in the second story. I have used this for coax and telephone wiring.
(7) My plumbing is a mix of copper and PVC. I am on a well and have a septic system, not city sewer and water. So I am unsure if water pipes would make a good ground connection. I have seen conflicting information on the usage of water piping as a ground for the 2002 code.

First hello to all and I am a Iornwood Technician who has recently quit the lovely grip of there daily stupidness. Ok that said the way to properly ground per code in your case(all situations are different) is
1) within 20 ft of the switch to one dish(if two dishes used both are from the dual cable pvcx3b) using a split bolt #8 to the green ground connected to the switch at the scew point on the switch(done by stripping enough insulation to secure the plit bolt(s). A #4 is used from the green ground to a groung at a secure ground point ex spike in ground,water pipe, trailer home beam, air conditioner or good old electrical box corner brace.
There is on a 6x8 4,yes four places to acces a ground on the switch whereas only one on the other 4x8, 4x4 or 3x4. Hope this answers your questions.
Also Iornwood has sent out in the past there own stupervisors to qc this. They also hired a team to do this as well as Direc is vary picky about what is to be done at the customers house,for good reasons.

[dkouz]

(1) #10 wire minimum from the antenna, mast - warning: installers usually use the "messenger wire" which is not #10 - order them to do it in #10 or else call direcTV and demand correction;

That is false. Grounding the 60% braid, RG6, with the #17 'messenger' to an approved ground is the approved method. With 2 dishes, D* even says to split-bolt one of the 'messengers' to the other near the dishes instead of running the second down to the ground block (or 6x8).

[K4SMX]

That is false. Grounding the 60% braid, RG6, with the #17 'messenger' to an approved ground is the approved method. With 2 dishes, D* even says to split-bolt one of the 'messengers' to the other near the dishes instead of running the second down to the ground block (or 6x8).
We have to distinguish between lightning protection, which is an oxymoron in many ways, and proper equipment grounding, which is designed to prevent transient equipment-damaging voltage differences from nearby lightning strikes. I feel at least marginally protected from fire or personal injury in a real lightning strike with nothing less than #4 solid copper (half-inch copper strap is preferred) running in as straight a line as possible directly from the antenna to an 8' ground rod, which is then tied to the service ground with buried #4 solid copper. So-called "grounding blocks" can be further grounded in the manner described above, after also running directly to ground. There should be no alternate lightning paths caused by routing coax through attic vents, etc. Additional coax is cheap compared to what you will be spending if this is not done properly and you get a direct hit.

Personally, I use three 8' ground rods in an 18" triangular pattern in tower installations, but dish roof mounts are somewhat less likely to be struck directly, especially if there are surrounding trees. The best you can do is to do the best you can do, however.

I have seen what happens with direct lightning strikes to installations using the method described above. It may be legal, but I do not believe it is adequate. Outside antennas are inherently dangerous and this is serious business. We're talking about millions of volts and hundreds of thousands of amps. Volts x Amps = POWER. That's why I greatly prefer pole mounts. If you put a dish antenna on your roof, you have basically installed a lightning rod. You need a direct strike, if it comes your way, to go directly to a lot of metal in the ground, and hope you've done enough.

[BK EH]

This is not meant to be a fascetious question...

What about all the those metal roofs out there, with galvanized attic vent stacks, and with galvaized fresh air supplies going to furnaces in attics all over the south? None of them are grounded. They aren't burning up from strikes.

The reason I ask if this -- we have such. Plus, our dish is mounted on a gable fascia, 5 feet below the 40 ft roof ridgeline. There are 50-60 foot trees just to the east and west of the house. The dish is grounded directly to an inside grounding block just inside the attic gable wall, put there specifically by an electrican for that purpose. It's tied direclty into the panel 40 feet away.

We had to sign off w/ D* on an inside ground. While I understand what you are pointing out, I find it very hard it believe there's any real risk there with that dish.

[K4SMX]

I'm no expert on metal roofs. You would think they could be more hazardous than non-metal roofs, but then there is lots of wiring in most peoples' attics, too. Suffice it to say I've got lightning rods all over the roof lines of my 1 and 2 story house which are thoroughly grounded through braided copper ground wires of large diameter. Lightning strikes trees more often than anything else. I guess we're all just lucky, most of the time. Like aircraft collisions and why there are so few of them: Big sky, little airplane. There's a lot more trees than houses.

Mounting the dish below the roof line, as you did, is certainly desirable.