Please fix CIR (Rant!)

[Stuart Sweet]

We have all been very patient about the Channels I Receive bug. If you're new here, you might have noticed that the list of channels you get is, every channel. If you don't pay for HBO, it's still on the list. If you don't get a sports package, it's on the list. If you don't get the porn channels, they're on the list.

Why is this a problem? You can set up favorites lists, right?

It's a problem because when you want to set up an autorecord, it will autorecord things which you don't get. Sometimes it will autorecord things you don't get and not record things you do get, because both tuners are in use.

It's a problem because when you search, it shows things you don't get. You're a DBSTalker, you probably know what you get and don't. But what about your spouse, your kids, etc?

It's a problem because it doesn't work and it never has.

Here's what I know about this problem:

It started roughly February 2006.
It is a problem on D1x receivers, H20, R15, and HR20.
It's nothing in the box, it's in the system.
They are working on it.

For the HR20, it doesn't work and it never has.

In chat the other night, I understand Earl said it could be another six months. I just don't think that's acceptable. When I thought a fix was around the corner, I was patient. Now, we're talking about close to two years for R15 users and over a year for early HR20 users.

I've given the HR20 developers a lot of support. I've even offered to send pizza to them but I couldn't get a name of who to send it to. I think they've done a great job. It's not their fault. But I gotta say, I'm beyond caring whose fault it is.

If this isn't going to get fixed, here's what I want the HR20 developers to do:

Create a Toggle for CIR.

Essentially, CIR can be automatic or manual. If you choose automatic, they tell you what you get. New channels are automatically added, free previews work, etc. This will be great when they fix it, in 6 months or whenever.

When set to manual, it basically works like Tivo. You have to set every channel manually. It will be a pain because there are a lot of channels. You will have to set them all manually, and if they add channels, you'll have to set those too. You'll have to set movie channels when you get free previews. It will be annoying but it will work.

The manual mode will have the added benefit of letting you completely ignore channels you will never in a million years watch, or ones that have viewpoints you despise, or channels in languages you don't speak. I think we can all think of a few channels like that.

Some have proposed that there's a business reason for not doing this, that making sure we have access to all channels gets them money. All the more reason to fix CIR fast. When Autorecord and Search work, we'll use them and might just record stuff on those channels we keep off our favorites list.

They can use the code from Edit Off-Air Channels, I would think.

Bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, FIX THIS. FIX THIS NOW. FIX THIS RIGHT. I really try to be supportive but on this one I am up against the wall.

FIX THIS. FIX THIS NOW. FIX THIS RIGHT.

[/rant]

[Mike Bertelson]

We have all been very patient about the Channels I Receive bug. If you're new here, you might have noticed that the list of channels you get is, every channel. If you don't pay for HBO, it's still on the list. If you don't get a sports package, it's on the list. If you don't get the porn channels, they're on the list.


If this isn't going to get fixed, here's what I want the HR20 developers to do:

Create a Toggle for CIR.

Essentially, CIR can be automatic or manual. If you choose automatic, they tell you what you get. New channels are automatically added, free previews work, etc. This will be great when they fix it, in 6 months or whenever.

When set to manual, it basically works like Tivo. You have to set every channel manually. It will be a pain because there are a lot of channels. You will have to set them all manually, and if they add channels, you'll have to set those too. You'll have to set movie channels when you get free previews. It will be annoying but it will work.

Bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, FIX THIS. FIX THIS NOW. FIX THIS RIGHT. I really try to be supportive but on this one I am up against the wall.

FIX THIS. FIX THIS NOW. FIX THIS RIGHT

[/rant]

I couldn't agree more. Like Live Buffers, I can't believe this is still a problem. You would have thought that this would be one of the more important items to fix.

It doesn't do anything big.....it only controls how the system decides what to record....THAT'S ALL!!.

OK, I'll say it

FIX THE BLEEPING CHANNELS I BLEEPING RECIEVE!!

Mike

[oakwcj]

Amen.

I have suggested a couple of times that the problem could be greatly ameliorated if searches could be limited to, or filtered by, one of the custom favorites. I continue to think that it would be relatively easy to program a filter like this.

[litzdog911]

Yep. I'd be happy with manually setting up my "Channels I Receive", like the DirecTV/Tivos, if DirecTV can't get the automatic CIR feature to work properly.

[franco]

Have to agree with this also. It would be so nice to just see the channels I get listed instead of everything. I was with *E for awhile and the way they did it was all the chanels not available to me would show up as red, at least you knew where you stood!!

[Mike Bertelson]

Amen.

I have suggested a couple of times that the problem could be greatly ameliorated if searches could be limited to, or filtered by, one of the custom favorites. I continue to think that it would be relatively easy to program a filter like this.

I like this idea. :D

Although, it would still be a work around, but it's still better than what I have now. I could least filter it to favorites/CIR via custom lists.


Mike

Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department

[Agrajag]

Three items I can't believe are not addressed:

1) I can't watch a recorded program when the signal is out? Are you kidding on this one? I mention it not from personal experience as I just got my HR20 and saw this one in the wishlist. I would have never even considered that this was a possible situation. How can I not watch something that's sitting there simply because the receiver can't see the birds???

2) No dual live buffers. This one I can see the issue with. It's not trivial from a support standpoint but it shouldn't be rocket science. TiVo has it. This should have it.

3) Channels I Receive. I'm with the rest of you. DirecTV knows which channels I receive. Clearly their software is aware of that or else I'd be getting everything for free. I must believe that the reason this doesn't get fixed is partly due to the masses of typical users who do a search, find a great sounding movie, call DirecTV when it doesn't show up, and then add HBO as a result.

If the box tells me I can get a program I search for, I say I should get it even if DirecTV has to give it to me for free. heheheh Hey, it's your fault for showing me this programming.

The only way I'd accept this is as follows:

I do a search for something. Up comes a list. In the list there is programming from channels I get and don't get. The ones I don't get are clearly marked as channels I don't currently receive. Maybe it'd even be neat to be able to select that anyway and have the channel added (ala PPV-type screen) or work deals with the providers to do a PPV sort of deal so I can get that show once. Other than this, just address this issue. Channels I Receive is a pretty basic item to many of us.

[dinosaur]

I agree completely. I'm a new DTV user, and I have loved the service so far, but I HATE that this doesn't work properly. I really blows my mind.

The amount of extra work it takes on my end to compensate is not a huge amount, but it's more than most companies would force the user to go through.

[SFNSXguy]

Ditto, ditto and ditto.

How the consumer public allowed D* to release the HR20 only half baked is a mystery to me. I guess it's a sign of the times.... I hear GM's 2009 cars won't have brakes, but they'll release work sheets on internet chat rooms that allow owners to install their own.

:D

[bonscott87]

Actually, just enable searches to run off a selected favorites list.

Fixing CIR still won't be enough for a lot of people. I mean, I get the Sports Pack as part of Premier but I don't want an autorecord to even know 99% of those channels exist. I want it to record the Red Wings on *MY* RSN. I could care less if the game is also on another one.

So PLEASE, just allow searches/autorecrods to run off of a favorites list. That will make everyone happy.

Then fix CIR at your leasure but don't take away the ability later to search on a favorites list instead of CIR. Make it a toggle that is set to CIR by default, but I can change it to search off a favorite list.

[Stuart Sweet]

Actually, just enable searches to run off a selected favorites list.

Fixing CIR still won't be enough for a lot of people. I mean, I get the Sports Pack as part of Premier but I don't want an autorecord to even know 99% of those channels exist. I want it to record the Red Wings on *MY* RSN. I could care less if the game is also on another one.

So PLEASE, just allow searches/autorecrods to run off of a favorites list. That will make everyone happy.

Then fix CIR at your leasure but don't take away the ability later to search on a favorites list instead of CIR. Make it a toggle that is set to CIR by default, but I can change it to search off a favorite list.

I would be satisfied with this. Not completely, but satisfied.

[bwaldron]

Yep. I'd be happy with manually setting up my "Channels I Receive", like the DirecTV/Tivos, if DirecTV can't get the automatic CIR feature to work properly.

Indeed. Couldn't agree more. This is one of the major issues remaining with the HR20 IMHO.

[bwaldron]

How the consumer public allowed D* to release the HR20 only half baked is a mystery to me.

People would bitch either way...the MPEG4 locals were available, and folks wanted a DVR to record them. Not excusing D* -- clearly they underestimated the development time needed for the HR20, and it was released earlier than it should have been.

[Jeremy W]

The fact that there's no manual setting for CIR is insane. I know that they have to hold off on the automatic selection because of other issues, but in the mean time they should allow manual selection just like Tivo. I can't see any reason not to do this.

[armophob]

Funny you start this thread today. I ran into this exact trouble today for the first time. I posted it in a PBS thread, but it bears repeating here. I was considering stepping up on my soap box about it, but thank you for saving my vocal cords.

"I have just hit a wall with D* on PBS. I recorded the American Experience on channel 384. It was not recorded and then I tuned to it to find a 721 message. After D* tried to restore my receiver I asked if it was even available to me and the answer was no. I get one PBS station on 295 and thats all on Sat feed. So to all who can watch the Jonestown episode, enjoy it. I can't."

[oakwcj]

In an earlier thread on this issue, Earl (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=848602&postcount=12) said that he knew the reason why CIR hasn't been activated, that his lips were sealed, that the chances of a workaround based on a favorites filter were between slim and none, but that he'd see if he could get an update on when we could expect CIR to work. So, Earl, have you had any success on getting an update on progress on this front? And are you still not free to tell us the reason(s) behind this failure to fix an important broken function?

[Titan25]

The "new channel" issue is bogus. This would be, just as it is on a DirecTiVo, a "subtractive" filter - IOW, a channel shows up unless it has been specifically subtracted. When a new channel appears, it is obviously not on the "subtract" list and so will show up in the guide, until manually removed.

[Stuart Sweet]

I sincerely hope that the chances of getting a workaround fix on this have improved if it's going to be another SIX MONTHS before we see this fixed. As to why it's happening, I have gotten to the point where I do not care as much as I used to. I just want it fixed, and I'm not the only one.

[Milominderbinder2]

D* promised in the manual that we can:

"Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" p. 33.

They don't have that done yet. But if they would keep their promise on another item we would have a good workaround:

Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for “just what you want to watch” p. 31

D*, how about just keeping either one of these promises?

- Craig

[bonscott87]

Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for “just what you want to watch” p. 31


This alone would solve many, many problems.

[islesfan]

This is the most ridiculously annoying, completely unacceptable situation with the HR20. It could be fixed so easliy with a toggle, but they won't let us have that control!

[BubblePuppy]

The "new channel" issue is bogus. This would be, just as it is on a DirecTiVo, a "subtractive" filter - IOW, a channel shows up unless it has been specifically subtracted. When a new channel appears, it is obviously not on the "subtract" list and so will show up in the guide, until manually removed.

As long as it is actually received. Unfortunately if I go to the full guide it shows I get all the Asian channels which I don't.

I really only want to see in the guide the channels I am paying for. I really don't want another toggle or a lengthy editing...ok a toggle for all the channels the D* has and those that I have paid for would be good..no ...GREAT!!!!!
Also I want the only channels I get in every type of search.

[Earl Bonovich]

I've answered this for some others...

CIR - Is not about the HR20... It is a bigger picture issue. It is not issolated, to just the HR20. The ACTUAL FIX is already being deployed... However it will take a fairly long time, do to the size of the impact.

"Toggling" it... It is not as straight forward as you may think.
So sure, the search could be used to favorites... but now you must also consider including programming to handle if no favorites are set... What to do if there are two favorites set (which one do you use?)...

So, if you only want to use one... you now need to include that in the programming/scheduler logic, so you can state which favorite list to use; with regards to AutoRecords...

What if favorite list change? Should you warn users that you now have auto-records set are tied to that favorite list.

Should Searchs ONLY show results for favorites... What if you are like me, and have one of your favorites set just for your locals stations?


Then... the other solution... allow you to manually tweak the Channels I receive list... Well.. the system flat out is not built for that.

So should they take the time to build that in... when probably by the time they are done coding it, testing it, changing any other code that has to work with that list... the true "fix" is rolled out and complete.

Or should they just enable it... and have it run like it did on the R15 when it was enabled... where it wouldn't let you record on channels it didn't think you had... even though you did have them.


I understand that it sucks... and some of you are furious and serious upset that it doesn't work the way you want it to...

The fix is already done... and again, for the umpteenth time... it has nothing to do with the software on the HR20.... The necessary code that has to be updated, is being updated... however it still has a whiles to go until it is everywhere.

And the continuous quoting of the obviously seriously incorrect manual.
IMHO... they should frankly throw out the old manual, and issue a new one.

More and More of that manual was cut and paste from the R15/D10/D11/H20 manuals, rather then written for the HR20..

[SuperTech1]

Everyone loves the Circus! :)

Channels
I
Receive
Coming
Up
Soon

(Have some cotton candy while you're waiting :lol: )
:D

[BubblePuppy]

I've answered this for some others...

CIR - Is not about the HR20... It is a bigger picture issue. It is not issolated, to just the HR20. The ACTUAL FIX is already being deployed... However it will take a fairly long time, do to the size of the impact.

"Toggling" it... It is not as straight forward as you may think.
So sure, the search could be used to favorites... but now you must also consider including programming to handle if no favorites are set... What to do if there are two favorites set (which one do you use?)...

So, if you only want to use one... you now need to include that in the programming/scheduler logic, so you can state which favorite list to use; with regards to AutoRecords...

What if favorite list change? Should you warn users that you now have auto-records set are tied to that favorite list.

Should Searchs ONLY show results for favorites... What if you are like me, and have one of your favorites set just for your locals stations?


Then... the other solution... allow you to manually tweak the Channels I receive list... Well.. the system flat out is not built for that.

So should they take the time to build that in... when probably by the time they are done coding it, testing it, changing any other code that has to work with that list... the true "fix" is rolled out and complete.

Or should they just enable it... and have it run like it did on the R15 when it was enabled... where it wouldn't let you record on channels it didn't think you had... even though you did have them.


I understand that it sucks... and some of you are furious and serious upset that it doesn't work the way you want it to...

The fix is already done... and again, for the umpteenth time... it has nothing to do with the software on the HR20.... The necessary code that has to be updated, is being updated... however it still has a whiles to go until it is everywhere.

And the continuous quoting of the obviously seriously incorrect manual.
IMHO... they should frankly throw out the old manual, and issue a new one.

More and More of that manual was cut and paste from the R15/D10/D11/H20 manuals, rather then written for the HR20..


Great food for thought,Earl.
I now can see how big a project "Channels I recieve" is considering how many different "packages" D* offers plus the various permutations of sport choices.
I think it's obvious that "search" should be based on channels recieved" and not on "favorites". Just because a channel isn't in my favorites doesn't mean I would want the show I'm searching for be ignored.
So I guess "favorites" should not be a factor in the search crieria, only "channels recieved/payed for".

[tucker301]

I was a Dish subscriber for 7 years before recently switching to Directv.
Since most of my experience was with their system, I'll relate how theirs worked.

They had a CIR option that seemed to work well.

If new or free preview channels were added, they were automatically added to the list in my guide. For example, if HBO had a free preview weekend, I'd automatically see HBO in my guide when the preview became active.

If I wanted record something while the preview was active, it would record.
If I set it to record after the preview was off, I'd get an error message that the program was not available.

If new channels became available, and they were part of my current subscription package, then they automatically were addded to the guide.

It was pretty simple stuff and it worked very well.

I suspect CIR is slow to be put through because it takes channels that you don't currently pay for out of sight altogether. There's a loss of marketing when that's done.
In the eyes of marketing, you can't want what you don't know about. But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!

[BubblePuppy]

But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!

Or another name for it is unwanted clutter.

Besides isn't that what the Message feature is for?

[tucker301]

I didn't say I liked it.
I was merely pointing out one possible reason that it may be slow to be "fixed".

[BubblePuppy]

Oh...I didn't mean to imply that you do like it, I'm sure there a very few of us that do.

[Steve]

Great food for thought,Earl.
I now can see how big a project "Channels I recieve" is considering how many different "packages" D* offers plus the various permutations of sport choices.
I think it's obvious that "search" should be based on channels recieved" and not on "favorites". Just because a channel isn't in my favorites doesn't mean I would want the show I'm searching for be ignored.
So I guess "favorites" should not be a factor in the search crieria, only "channels recieved/payed for".If I understand what you're saying, I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. Since I have an OTA antenna (or even if I didn't), I might want to exclude a channel from being searched (one of my 3 FOX HD's, e.g.). I need a way to do that... either by limiting search to an edited CIR list, or to a Favorites list.

Now if you meant an "edited" CIR list, my bad, and I totally agree! :) /steve

[BubblePuppy]

You are correct,Sir!
I wasn't even thinking about OTA. That is anoher kettle of a different fish.
Yes OTA would need to be treated different.
Good point.

[Earl Bonovich]

But how do you propose, someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?

Some multi-option setting for each of the several hundred channels in the DirecTV stream? (Include in Search: But not guide; Include in Guide: But not Search; Don't include anywhere, but allow me to tune it... Completely remove it from the system; Don't include in individual searches, but include for auto-tunes, ect.....)

PS: I am playing Devil's advocate here... to throw out there some of the other points that DirecTV has to consider, when building the system for several MILLION users.... they have to evaluate how EVERYONE is going to use it.

[Steve]

But how do you propose, someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?
.Base Search on an editable CIR list, but allow user to select whether guide is displaying All, Favorites, or CIR... like on the HR-10. Wouldn't that do it?/steve

[oakwcj]

I've answered this for some others...


"Toggling" it... It is not as straight forward as you may think.
So sure, the search could be used to favorites... but now you must also consider including programming to handle if no favorites are set... What to do if there are two favorites set (which one do you use?)...




Then... the other solution... allow you to manually tweak the Channels I receive list... Well.. the system flat out is not built for that.



And the continuous quoting of the obviously seriously incorrect manual.
IMHO... they should frankly throw out the old manual, and issue a new one.

More and More of that manual was cut and paste from the R15/D10/D11/H20 manuals, rather then written for the HR20..

I understand that you don't work for D*, Earl, and that you are in no way responsible for this absence of basic functionality which is a big part of what distinguishes a DVR from a glorified VCR. But, I don't understand why you feel compelled to act as an apologist for D*'s failure to live up to the promises it makes in its manuals. I read the manual before I decided not to switch to cable. I specifically noted that the HR20 would be able to to autorecord wishlists in a manner similar to the DirecTiVo. You say that the problem has nothing to do with the HR20's code, and I believe you, but I wan't even aware of the issue when I used the DirecTiVos, because the first thing I always did was to remove the religion, shopping, and gossip channels, along with those I didn't actually receive. Is it some sort of excuse for a big corporation to cut and paste misrepresentations about the capabilities of products from one manual to another? Shouldn't the answer be to provide the capabilites rather than renege on marketing promises that people rely on in making purchasing decisions? At best, this company is guilty of incredible sloppiness in issuing product manuals. At worst, these are material misrepresentations of fact, aka false advertising.

[Earl Bonovich]

Base Search on an editable CIR list, but allow user to select whether guide is displaying All, Favorites, or CIR... like on the HR-10. Wouldn't that do it?/steve

So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...

On the HR10-250, when you pull something out of the Channels I Receive... it basically "removes" it from the system... all favorites, and you can not schedule recordings on it, until you put it back in.... (Basically the channel does not exist to the DVR functions... but you can key in the channel and watch it live, and use the buffer)

[Earl Bonovich]

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:

You are correct... the manual is very incorrect... never said it wasn't.
All I said, is that it needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY re-written, from page ZERO up.


I understand that you don't work for D*, Earl, and that you are in no way responsible for this absence of basic functionality which is a big part of what distinguishes a DVR from a glorified VCR. But, I don't understand why you feel compelled to act as an apologist for D*'s failure to live up to the promises it makes in its manuals. I read the manual before I decided not to switch to cable. I specifically noted that the HR20 would be able to to autorecord wishlists in a manner similar to the DirecTiVo. You say that the problem has nothing to do with the HR20's code, and I believe you, but I wan't even aware of the issue when I used the DirecTiVos, because the first thing I always did was to remove the religion, shopping, and gossip channels, along with those I didn't actually receive. Is it some sort of excuse for a big corporation to cut and paste misrepresentations about the capabilities of products from one manual to another? Shouldn't the answer be to provide the capabilites rather than renege on marketing promises that people rely on in making purchasing decisions? At best, this company is guilty of incredible sloppiness in issuing product manuals. At worst, these are material misrepresentations of fact, aka false advertising.

[bonscott87]

My concern with it being based on a true "channels I receive" is in cases like locals. I have 3 different versions of locals (SD, MPEG4 HD, OTA HD). In most cases I only care about the OTA HD. For one channel I use MPEG4. I could care less about the SD version.

But then I guess I shouldn't worry about it too much. I could never get autorecord wishlists to work properly for me on the Tivo due to similar issues (game on both ESPN and my RSN, I'd want my RSN to have priority for example). So I guess it really doesn't effect me one way or another.

[Steve]

So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...You could call it that. No reason to see channels you don't receive or never want to see (like shopping channels, in my case). Or folks could just leave it alone, if they didn't want to edit it.

Actually, in the example you cited:

someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?

If folks wanted to be able to record a channel, I don't know why they wouldn't want to also see those channels in their guide. Probably a very rare case that doesn't need to be accounted for.

Just my $.02. /steve

[oakwcj]

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:

You are correct... the manual is very incorrect... never said it wasn't.
All I said, is that it needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY re-written, from page ZERO up.

No, fostering a discussion is terrific, but defending the indefensible isn't. I always read electronics manuals online before I make a buying decision. Rewriting the manual after the fact is Orwellian. When a company says our product can do X, I expect it to do X. Back when I taught consumer protection law, making material false representations was an important element in proving a fraud case.

I'm not going to get caught up in a technical discussion of how to implement a function that was promised to me before I bought the HR20, because I don't have access to any source code. However, the favorites data is obviously stored on the hard drive. I should be able to select which of my favorites to use in a keyword search. Why should this be such a big deal to implement?

[DaHound]

[QUOTE=oakwcj;907045]Amen.

I have suggested a couple of times that the problem could be greatly ameliorated ......QUOTE]

And for those who never heard of the word, www.thefreedictionary.com/ameliorated

:D

[Milominderbinder2]

Sony solved the Channels I Receive issues back in 2001 with the SAT-T60 DVR.

You get four options under Favorite Channels:
* All Channels (CIR in HR20 speak)
* My Channels (editable list of CIR and this is what searches would use)
* Fav 1
* Fav 2
(EDIT: I updated to include bonscott's corrected wording. Thank you, Scott!)

Of course, only D* can change the "All Channels" list.

My Channels defaults to include every channel. You can turn off shopping channels, etc. as you like.

The search results are based on the My Channels no matter what filter you are actually using at the time. Otherwise an Autorecord could miss a program just because you had a filter selected.

If a new channel becomes available, it is automatically added to My Channels. Click it off if you want. So you don't miss an HBO freeview. At the end of the weekend, the HBO channels come right back out.

The HR20 manual was first released on May 8, 2006. It has been revised twice. We are now at the -b version which you can download here:

http://www.directv.com/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf

The manual states that you can search for "just what you want to watch" (page 31).

Now you could.

We would no longer be waiting for the millions of other receivers to be fixed.

And for me, this is actually a better solution.

What do you think?

- Craig

[DaHound]

We need a more phlegmatical approach to this problem.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phlegmatical

Sorry, I couldn't resist: !rolling

[islesfan]

So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...

On the HR10-250, when you pull something out of the Channels I Receive... it basically "removes" it from the system... all favorites, and you can not schedule recordings on it, until you put it back in.... (Basically the channel does not exist to the DVR functions... but you can key in the channel and watch it live, and use the buffer)

This is EXACTLY what I want. I need to be able to tell the system that I don't get the channels in the 600's (well most of them). Otherwise, the system happily attempts to record Islanders games on FNSY, which I don't get. I have a large list of channels that I need to get gone!

[islesfan]

I suspect CIR is slow to be put through because it takes channels that you don't currently pay for out of sight altogether. There's a loss of marketing when that's done.
In the eyes of marketing, you can't want what you don't know about. But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!

This doesn't hold up because like most people, I edit my favorites list, and get rid of all the channels I don't get or want. So when I bring up the guide, I have no idea what is on Logo that I might be missing. I never see what movie HBO HD has to offer. It only shows up when I schedule a autorecord, and get something I don't have access to, resulting is a black screen, and enough anger that I would never even consider ADDING channels to my package when I get a partially functional DVR right now. Why pay more for more channels I can't reliably record?

[Steve]

Sony solved the Channels I Receive issues back in 2001 with the SAT-T60 DVR.

You get four options under Favorite Channels:
+ All Channels
+ Channels I Receive
+ Custom 1
+ Custom 2

Of course, only D* can change the "All Channels" list.

Channels I Receive defaults to include every channel. You can turn off shopping channels, etc. as you like.

The search results are based on the Channels I Receive no matter what filter you are actually using at the time. Otherwise an Autorecord could miss a program just because you had a filter selected.

If a new channel becomes available, it is automatically added to the Channels I Receive. Click it off if you want.

The HR20 manual was first released on May 8, 2006. It has been revised twice. We are now at the -b version which you can download here:

http://www.directv.com/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf

The manual states that you can search for "just what you want to watch" (page 31).

Now you could.

We would no longer be waiting for the millions of other receivers to be fixed.

And for me, this is actually a better solution.

What do you think?Works for me. /steve

[oakwcj]

We need a more phlegmatical approach to this problem.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phlegmatical

Sorry, I couldn't resist: !rolling

Don't start making fun of the Phlegmish. You wouldn't want to have them spitting that stuff on you.

Actually, D*'s approach to this problem has been phlegmatic in the extreme. One might even say flaccid. We need less phlegm and more phlair.

[Doug Brott]

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:

There's nothing wrong with being an apologist :).

That being said, my personal opinion is that you are more a pragmatist than an apologist. I'm on board with that myself.


pragmatist
–noun
1. a person who is oriented toward the success or failure of a particular line of action, thought, etc.; a practical person.


It's not so much that DirecTV is right or wrong .. It's more that we all have a discussion that results in the right answer. I believe that Earl is trying to look at things from both the consumer side as well as the manufacturer/producer side. Sometimes the best solution is not a one-size-fits-all solution. DirecTV does have to pick and choose what they work on. I look forward to the day when CIR does work properly, but there may be things that we haven't considered that make it more difficult to implement.

[bonscott87]

This is EXACTLY what I want. I need to be able to tell the system that I don't get the channels in the 600's (well most of them). Otherwise, the system happily attempts to record Islanders games on FNSY, which I don't get. I have a large list of channels that I need to get gone!

Very true. I didn't even think about this. I have the Premier pack but could care less for the Sports Pack channels (it's just cheaper to get Premier). So the only channel in the 600s I care about is 636. But the Wings will show up on 636 AND one of the other channels (say Comcast Chicago on 640). I don't want the search to even know 640 exists let alone try to record a 3 hour block of blackness since that feed would be blacked out to me anyway.

Posted above is how the Sat T-60 did it and that is what the HR20 should be doing:

* All Channels (CIR in HR20 speak)
* My Channels (editable list of CIR and this is what searches would use)
* Fav 1
* Fav 2

But if all the searching goes off of is CIR then it will still pick up channels I don't care about and can and will record sports on the wrong channels that are blacked out. UNLESS I can also give the search a channel number.

Example: Keyword "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey | From Channel 636.
Thus it will record anyting Red Wings but only off channel 636.

Or even more flexible do it this way:
Keyword "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey | From [CIR-My Channels-Fav List-Channel #]

That way I can restrict my search as wide or as narrow as I want.

[Milominderbinder2]

bonscott87,

Not only did you play rippin' guitar for AC/DC, you have an even better solution here for the HR20's CIR bug!

The HR20 can already filter based on Sport, HD/SD, Rating, etc.

Why can't they filter on Favorites lists?

As a programmer, to filter on HD, First Run, etc., you have to dig into every one of thousands of Guide entries. That is way more tedious.

The favorites lists are already there.

They already know how to do filters.

Why can't those two go together?

Now ideally, I would still love my functionallity of having a My Channels as a thrid option.

Good thinking!

- Craig

Scott, I hope it is OK but I am going to put your corrections and updates in my post above. - c

[Earl Bonovich]

No, fostering a discussion is terrific, but defending the indefensible isn't. I always read electronics manuals online before I make a buying decision. Rewriting the manual after the fact is Orwellian. When a company says our product can do X, I expect it to do X. Back when I taught consumer protection law, making material false representations was an important element in proving a fraud case.

I'm not going to get caught up in a technical discussion of how to implement a function that was promised to me before I bought the HR20, because I don't have access to any source code. However, the favorites data is obviously stored on the hard drive. I should be able to select which of my favorites to use in a keyword search. Why should this be such a big deal to implement?

The electronic manual that was available for the HR20 (and the same one today)... Is simply not valid for the vast majority of advanced features.

And frankly, IMHO... the manual should be nothing more then a setup guide... and then have online resources (on the HR20, or else where), for the rest of it. As specifically with this system, things are changing significantly over time.

We knew the day I released the review thread, the manual was wrong.
We knew when that "pre-version" started to float around, their where things wrong.

But that is besides the point... This is not the first, and won't be the last online manual that doesn't match it's product. Manuals (IMHO), are at the bottom of the list for a lot of products now adays.

-----------------------

Selecting "which one" of your favorites to do searches on... Sure.. that is a good feature to have, and one that I can see they may add... But as for when?

[Earl Bonovich]

You could call it that. No reason to see channels you don't receive or never want to see (like shopping channels, in my case). Or folks could just leave it alone, if they didn't want to edit it.

Actually, in the example you cited:

someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?

If folks wanted to be able to record a channel, I don't know why they wouldn't want to also see those channels in their guide. Probably a very rare case that doesn't need to be accounted for.

Just my $.02. /steve

Here in Chicago we have a good number of sub-channels... some that specialize in re-runs... I would want the searchs to exclude those subchannels (especially for Auto-Records, which are nothing more then a SERACH that records what it finds)... But would still want them on my guide, for those times I am just looking for something to watch.

There are also times, that I would want to filter the "west" coast versions of the channels, so they don't hit in searches (thus doubling up the results)... but when going through the guide... I would want to see them.

[Steve]

Here in Chicago we have a good number of sub-channels... some that specialize in re-runs... I would want the searchs to exclude those subchannels (especially for Auto-Records, which are nothing more then a SERACH that records what it finds)... But would still want them on my guide, for those times I am just looking for something to watch.

There are also times, that I would want to filter the "west" coast versions of the channels, so they don't hit in searches (thus doubling up the results)... but when going through the guide... I would want to see them.


Sounds like you want a favorites-based search, then, with multiple favorites lists to choose from. Seems perfectly doable. If we went the Sat-T60 way with either All, CIR, Fav 1 or Fav 2, and each was search or guide selectable, you could just about cover any situation.

I'd just call them Fav 1, Fav 2, Fav 3 and Fav 4 to avoid confusion.

/steve

[Earl Bonovich]

Sounds like you want a favorites-based search, then, with multiple favorites lists to choose from. Seems perfectly doable. If we went the Sat-T60 way with either All, CIR, Fav 1 or Fav 2, and each was search or guide selectable, you could just about cover any situation.

I'd just call them Fav 1, Fav 2, Fav 3 and Fav 4 to avoid confusion.

/steve

Yes...exactly... but how do you then configure which Favorite to use in the search? Do you add an extra step to the Search criteria screen? Or do you force to use the current loaded favorites...

How do you handle Auto-Records? Do you use the Favorite list used at the time of the search (and then setup of the record)..... Do you have to have any extra handling if that Favorite list is changed (and there is an Auto record tied to it).

And again... I am agreement with that a feature should be included to allow some sort of filtering on the Searches, as I too don't like to see 6 hits for NBC in my Search results...

I am simply putting out there, that it is not just as simple as "let's add a filter"... you have to consider all the factors that go into it (that includes the GUI aspect, and how changes to that search code, may effect other processes that uses the same search code).

[Steve]

Yes...exactly... but how do you then configure which Favorite to use in the search? Do you add an extra step to the Search criteria screen? Or do you force to use the current loaded favorites...

How do you handle Auto-Records? Do you use the Favorite list used at the time of the search (and then setup of the record)..... Do you have to have any extra handling if that Favorite list is changed (and there is an Auto record tied to it).

And again... I am agreement with that a feature should be included to allow some sort of filtering on the Searches, as I too don't like to see 6 hits for NBC in my Search results...

I am simply putting out there, that it is not just as simple as "let's add a filter"... you have to consider all the factors that go into it (that includes the GUI aspect, and how changes to that search code, may effect other processes that uses the same search code).

Yup. I'm saying they could add a new pull-down "Favorites" field to the guide, to search, to autosearch and anywhere else it's appropriate to choose which Favorites list to use for that function.

I think the wish list item to filter final results by network and channel selected in the first search is a separate issue, equally important tho! :)

/steve

[Chaos]

It seems to me that the HR10-250 had the (almost) perfect answer:

1. Adjustable "Channels I Receive" (Hopefully automatic on the HR20)
2. The ability to see and therefore "All Channels" (Even the ones that I removed from CIR)
3. Favorites for the guide.

I never understood the need for multiple favorites lists.

[Earl Bonovich]

It seems to me that the HR10-250 had the (almost) perfect answer:

1. Adjustable "Channels I Receive" (Hopefully automatic on the HR20)
2. The ability to see and therefore "All Channels" (Even the ones that I removed from CIR)
3. Favorites for the guide.

I never understood the need for multiple favorites lists.

One problem with the TiVo implementation... Once you removed it from your Channels I Receive list... You could not record on it... By any method (Series Link, Search, Individual, ect)

The channel HAD to be in your CIR in order to record anything from it.

As for the need for Multiple Favorites... I do wish the HR20 had more then two:

Right now; I have one set for just HD stations (that I am intrested in monitoring)
The other, to our "core" channels (About 40).

I would easily have another one for my Son's "core" channels; One for just the locals, when I am setting up the new seasons worth of programs...

[Drew2k]

Here in Chicago we have a good number of sub-channels... some that specialize in re-runs... I would want the searchs to exclude those subchannels (especially for Auto-Records, which are nothing more then a SERACH that records what it finds)... But would still want them on my guide, for those times I am just looking for something to watch.

There are also times, that I would want to filter the "west" coast versions of the channels, so they don't hit in searches (thus doubling up the results)... but when going through the guide... I would want to see them.Early, following up on what Craig wrote, you can get what you want! :)

First, there need to be a minimum of three channel lists:

All Channels - This would be every channel DirecTV provides, whether or not you subscribe to it, and it wouls also be ALL OTA channels you receive.

My Channels/Channels I Receive - This is a subset of All Channels and is user configurable. Any channel NOT in his list can not be used in searchs (and autorecords). In addition, you can not add to your favorites any channel that is NOT also in your CIR list.

Favorites 1 [...2][...] - A subset of your CIR list. If you want to make a channel a Favorite, it first has to be in your CIR list.


SEARCHES and AUTORECORDS are automatically limited to your CIR list, so if you edit your CIR list properly, you exclude any channels you don't subscribe to or can't receive (ex: OTA)

The GUIDE allows you to view (1) All Channels, (2) CIR, or (3) Your Favorites.

For your specific example, you would exclude those re-run subchannels in Chicago from your CIR list, so they're excluded form the searches, but when you want to see those subchannels in the guide, simply flip to the ALL CHANNELS view.


To me, this is a very simple solution, and it indeed closely mirrors TiVo's implementation, so it is already a tried-and-true process.

[Drew2k]

One problem with the TiVo implementation... Once you removed it from your Channels I Receive list... You could not record on it... By any method (Series Link, Search, Individual, ect)

The channel HAD to be in your CIR in order to record anything from it.I don't see that as a problem at all. If you want to record form it, you leave the channel in your CIR list. If you don't want to record from it, remove it from the list.

Conversely, if you remove a channel from the list, be aware you can't record from it.

As long as the CIR screen includes simple instructions for how the channel list is used, the end user knows what they're getting by adding or dropping a channel from the CIR list. To quote a coworker of mine, it's not rocket surgery! :)

[hambonewd]

circus--ha ha ha

directv should hire google to do design the UI and functionality features. google seems to be the king of all kings when it comes to usability. i use google for everything now. replaced yahoo email with gmail. no longer waste my time with mapquest--google maps is far superior, google calendar is awesome too. google seems to be the best at everything they do. would be awesome if directv partnered with them.

ok ill wake up now.

[Jeremy W]

directv should hire google to do design the UI and functionality features.
Yeah, hire a company with zero experience in the field of TV UI design to work on their UI. Brilliant! :rolleyes:

<rant>
The constant Google love-fest going on these days really makes me sick. Google would be a terrible company to hire to design a UI for DirecTV's receivers, but the almighty Google can do anything! Microsoft would be a much better candidate for the job, considering the fact that they have considerable experience and they have tended to do an excellent job in the past. But you'd never hear anybody say that DirecTV should get Microsoft to design their UI. It'll always be Google or Apple.
</rant>

[hambonewd]

less than 10 years ago google wasnt even a company. they had experience in nothing. yet they have dominated what they have pursued. if they can do what they have done so far why couldnt they successfully tackle a project like that? dang. not trying to stir anything up though. ill drop it. geeze.

[bikspk]

It seems that this is just a slightly complex query issue.

I have worked with databases which were a nightmare and, when visualizing the channel lineup as a set of tables in a database, it doesn't seem so complex.

Table 1: All Channels
Table 2: Package Channels (Channels I Receive)
Table 3: Favorites

Situation 1: You do a search using a keyword or the like (e.g. Premier). First a query is formulated like so:
SELECT * FROM ALL_CHANNELS WHERE TITLE LIKE *PREMIER* OR DESCRIPTION LIKE *PREMIER* INTO TEMPTABLE1
If this query returns nothing, simple, message with "Your search returned no results"
Else, TEMPTABLE1 now contains the id's of all channels with PREMIER in the title or desciption. You then query the results with another query like so:
SELECT * FROM TEMPTABLE1, PACKAGE WHERE TEMPTABLE1.CHANNEL = PACKAGE.CHANNEL INTO TEMPTABLE2
If this query returns nother, simple, message with "Your search returned no results"
Else, you now have a table (TEMPTABLE2) that contains all of the results that both match the search word "Premier" and are in your package channels.
Lastly, you do a final query like so:
SELECT * FROM TEMPTABLE2 WHERE TEMPTABLE1.CHANNEL = FAVORITES.CHANNEL
If you don't get anything, then there are matches that are not in your favorites list. Maybe it's time for a message such as:
"Your search results contain listing which are not in your current favorites list, would you like to display - Yes/No"
Else, you just display the results.

I know that there are situations where this would have to be modified but I've thought through autorecord, etc. and, with just a few prompts when you set these up, it seems relatively easy.
For instance, I want to record 24 every week. 24 is shown on Monday night at 9pm on channels WPGH (HD), PI53 (SD), ***HD (HD OTA), ***SD (SD OTA). During setup can I not just get a listing prompt to select which one I prefer.

Now for the painful part, you have something set up for autorecord, let's say 24 over ***HD in my case, and you disconnect your antenna (or your package changes), now you have an autorecord set up that won't work. So you have to check all of the things you have set up for autorecord when your ALL_CHANNELS table changes else you will get no recording. Maybe a message like "You have programs set for autorecord from a channel that has been removed from your channel list, would you like to modify the autorecord or delete" in which case you would either get a list of optional stations that carry the same program to select from (built from a query such as the above) or a "Sorry, there are no channels carrying that program".

I know that there are other situations that could be thrown at this but I don't see them as insurmountable. Maybe if I knew that the hardware/software of the HR20 wasn't capable then I would shut up but this is an complex computer and I know that query languages are built into handheld devices nowadays.

Argh, this problem definitely has a solution and I must be missing something if it has taken this long for a solution to come along.

My bet is that there are meetings where people say "Well, I'm not sure whether we want to give people that option since they may not understand what it means" and have come to a stalemate. I definitely hope that it is not a marketing question where they want people to see that something is available and they don't have it in their "Channels I Receive" list and are compelled to upgrade their subscription.

The CIR has been the prevailing lack of functionality that has annoyed me ever since I got this box.

Lastly, is there a way to save a category search? It would be so nice not to have to "Guide - Menu - Category Sort - Soccer" every time I want to see the list. Maybe I'm missing something.

Damn, 24 is on, later.

[Stuart Sweet]

Quick thanks to everyone who is putting great ideas forth! Better than I could have imagined!

[Earl Bonovich]

I don't see that as a problem at all. If you want to record form it, you leave the channel in your CIR list. If you don't want to record from it, remove it from the list.

Conversely, if you remove a channel from the list, be aware you can't record from it.

As long as the CIR screen includes simple instructions for how the channel list is used, the end user knows what they're getting by adding or dropping a channel from the CIR list. To quote a coworker of mine, it's not rocket surgery! :)

However... by doing that (and it has happened to me)...
When I wanted to record something on a channel I didn't have in my CIR (like on an HBO free-view), I have to then back out... go to the customization screen... add the channel.

Go back and do the search, and set the recording.
Then afterwards, go back and take it back out.

So... it is not that it couldn't be done, it just adds a complexity level to it...

[tonyd79]

I'm skipping half the commentary on the last page because Earl has completely lost me.

The arguments he is putting forth apply to the GUIDE as well yet there we have it. An ability to choose which favorites list we want to see on the guide.

You just put it in as a filter choice on all the right items. Searches, autorecords (aren't they an extension of searches?), etc. It is just another setting (All Channels, Fav A, Fav B...or whatever you change the names to).

It is not that difficult in concept. It is just another filter. And if the lists change, so do the searches, etc. No reason to warn anyone. That is just overthinking the box.

This is a simple thing. Computers do searches all the time. The HR20 is a computer.

[Steve]

I'm skipping half the commentary on the last page because Earl has completely lost me.

The arguments he is putting forth apply to the GUIDE as well yet there we have it. An ability to choose which favorites list we want to see on the guide.

You just put it in as a filter choice on all the right items. Searches, autorecords (aren't they an extension of searches?), etc. It is just another setting (All Channels, Fav A, Fav B...or whatever you change the names to).

It is not that difficult in concept. It is just another filter. And if the lists change, so do the searches, etc. No reason to warn anyone. That is just overthinking the box.

This is a simple thing. Computers do searches all the time. The HR20 is a computer.Agree. As a former programmer myself, this is not a hard concept to implement.

Each Favorite list (ALL, CIR, FAV 1, FAV 2) is probably already stored as a table inside the HR20's innards. For each function that needs to refer to a channel list, they could simply add a "drop down" menu that points that function to the appropriate table.

The functions that come to mind that would use this "drop down" menu are the guide, search and autorecord, but there may be other places where it might be appropriate to add it as well. /steve

[Milominderbinder2]

We carefully worked through all of the objections.

We have a solution that for me is actually better than the solution that may come in months or a year.

It is tried and true and has been working well for others for 6 years.

Why did the discussion end?

- Craig

[Steve]

We carefully worked through all of the objections.

We have a solution that for me is actually better than the solution that may come in months or a year.

It is tried and true and has been working well for others for 6 years.

Why did the discussion end?

- Craig

My Wish List proposal:

Add a new "drop down" menu to Guide, Search and Autorecord to specify which channel list that function should use (CIR, FAV1, or FAV2).

Just my. 02.

/steve

[islesfan]

My bet is that there are meetings where people say "Well, I'm not sure whether we want to give people that option since they may not understand what it means" and have come to a stalemate. I definitely hope that it is not a marketing question where they want people to see that something is available and they don't have it in their "Channels I Receive" list and are compelled to upgrade their subscription.

The CIR has been the prevailing lack of functionality that has annoyed me ever since I got this box.




If this is the reason, it is completely idiotic on two counts.

First, people can edit favorites list. If I can manage to wrap my brain around editing a favorites list, why would I have trouble with editing CIR?

Second, when people call, the CSR's just explain it this way anyway. I have called and had CSR's try to talk me through editing my CIR, even though I KNOW IT CANNOT BE DONE! I try explaining this to the CSR, and she just wants to send me a new box, since I have the only one that will not allow me to edit the CIR.

[Mike Bertelson]

My Wish List proposal:

Add a new "drop down" menu to Guide, Search and Autorecord to specify which channel list that function should use (CIR, FAV1, or FAV2).

Just my. 02.

/steve

Works for me but only as a work around.

What about new channels?

They do seem to wind up in my custom list, but I don't know if that's always true.

Has anyone not gotten a new channel in a custom list (FAV1...etc)?

Mike

[islesfan]

However... by doing that (and it has happened to me)...
When I wanted to record something on a channel I didn't have in my CIR (like on an HBO free-view), I have to then back out... go to the customization screen... add the channel.

Go back and do the search, and set the recording.
Then afterwards, go back and take it back out.

So... it is not that it couldn't be done, it just adds a complexity level to it...

But, really, how often does this come up? And for the once or twice a year you have to edit your CIR for a freeview, is it worth the hassle of having to manually program certain recordings (ie Sports Packages) EVERY DAY, and then have to babysit the ToDo list EVERY DAY?

I know, TiVo is like this, and from time to time, I did have to switch to "all channels" in order to record a freebie on HBO, but it really wasn't such a hassle, and it was far better than this alternative.

[islesfan]

Works for me but only as a work around.

What about new channels?

They do seem to wind up in my custom list, but I don't know if that's always true.

Has anyone not gotten a new channel in a custom list (FAV1...etc)?

Mike

I haven't, but it is no big deal. I check D* news and I occasionally switch to all channels in my favorites to see if there is something new I have been missing. Granted, it was a little easier with TiVo where new channels would show up in the CIR when they arrived, but there is a dark side to this too. I remember there was a gay PPV channel, and I would remove it from the TiVo, and a day or two later, it would return. So I would remove it again, and it would return again. Very annoying (I have small children). I would rather miss a week of, say, Chiller, than have to put up with the amazing re-appearing channel over and over again.

[Steve]

Works for me but only as a work around.

What about new channels?

They do seem to wind up in my custom list, but I don't know if that's always true.

Has anyone not gotten a new channel in a custom list (FAV1...etc)?

MikeAdd a new "drop down" menu to Guide, Search and Autorecord to specify which channel list that function should use (CIR, FAV1, or FAV2).

This proposal assumes that new channels are only added to CIR, not the Favorites list. If new channels are appearing there as well, that's a bug that should be fixed, IMO. I'm pretty sure doing it this way would cover all the unusual requirements I've seen in this thread. /steve

[Mike Bertelson]

Add a new "drop down" menu to Guide, Search and Autorecord to specify which channel list that function should use (CIR, FAV1, or FAV2).

This proposal assumes that new channels are only added to CIR, not the Favorites list. If new channels are appearing there as well, that's a bug that should be fixed, IMO. I'm pretty sure doing it this way would cover all the unusual requirements I've seen in this thread. /steve

Are you saying you don't want the new channels to show up in favorites?

I actually would want them to. I can always remove them and who knows, I might want to keep it.

Mike

[Mike Bertelson]

I haven't, but it is no big deal. I check D* news and I occasionally switch to all channels in my favorites to see if there is something new I have been missing. Granted, it was a little easier with TiVo where new channels would show up in the CIR when they arrived, but there is a dark side to this too. I remember there was a gay PPV channel, and I would remove it from the TiVo, and a day or two later, it would return. So I would remove it again, and it would return again. Very annoying (I have small children). I would rather miss a week of, say, Chiller, than have to put up with the amazing re-appearing channel over and over again.

I have seen where it shows up in a favorites list but I honestly can't say that is always the case.

Mike

[Steve]

Are you saying you don't want the new channels to show up in favorites?

I actually would want them to. I can always remove them and who knows, I might want to keep it.

MikeIMO, they should definitely not show up in Favorites. The whole idea behind Favorites is that they are a user-defined subset of your total pool of channels (CIR). When a new channel is added to CIR, the user should be alerted by a message that a channel was added, just like it works on the HR10-250 today. At that point, you can add it to your Favorites 1 or 2, if you want. My .02. :) /steve

[Mike Bertelson]

IMO, they should definitely not show up in Favorites. The whole idea behind Favorites is that they are a user-defined subset of your total pool of channels (CIR). When a new channel is added to CIR, the user should be alerted by a message that a channel was added, just like it works on the HR10-250 today. My .02. :) /steve

Only as a personal preference, I would want it. I almost never go to CIR, so I would miss them.

Also, because I'm too lazy to go looking for a new channel. :rolleyes:

Maybe that could also be a toggle.

Mike

[Steve]

Also, because I'm too lazy to go looking for a new channel. :rolleyes:That's why the HR10 method works well. You get a message when a new channel is added so you can decide whether to add it or not.

Prevents your Favs from getting inundated with new shopping, biz, public access, religious, etc. channels you may or may not be interested in. /steve

[Mike Bertelson]

That's why the HR10 method works well. You get a message when a new channel is added so you can decide whether to add it or not.

Prevents your Favs from getting inundated with new shopping, biz, public access, religious, etc. channels you may or may not be interested in. /steve

That's the way it should work. I remember reading about that(don't have a HR10) but forgot about that option. Definitly would work best.

Mike

[tucker301]

I have to say I was sickened today.
A friend was having Dishnetwork installed and asked me to come over and help with cabling, etc.

Their program guide is about 20 times faster.
But here's the cool part...

Press Guide once - All channels
Press it again - HD Channels
Press it again - All Subscribed Channels

No keybounce.
Fast as greased lightning.

[Steve]

I have to say I was sickened today.
A friend was having Dishnetwork installed and asked me to come over and help with cabling, etc.

Their program guide is about 20 times faster.
But here's the cool part...

Press Guide once - All channels
Press it again - HD Channels
Press it again - All Subscribed Channels

No keybounce.
Fast as greased lightning.That is cool. Will another press get you a Favorites list? I'd still want to filter subscribed channels down to only the ones I care to watch. If D* goes with the CIR, FAV1, FAV2 pull down suggestion above, we could replicate that if they assigned the pull down to the blue button (when in guide), e.g. /steve

[papa_azteca]

I understand that you don't work for D*, Earl, and that you are in no way responsible for this absence of basic functionality which is a big part of what distinguishes a DVR from a glorified VCR. But, I don't understand why you feel compelled to act as an apologist for D*'s failure to live up to the promises it makes in its manuals. I read the manual before I decided not to switch to cable. I specifically noted that the HR20 would be able to to autorecord wishlists in a manner similar to the DirecTiVo. You say that the problem has nothing to do with the HR20's code, and I believe you, but I wan't even aware of the issue when I used the DirecTiVos, because the first thing I always did was to remove the religion, shopping, and gossip channels, along with those I didn't actually receive. Is it some sort of excuse for a big corporation to cut and paste misrepresentations about the capabilities of products from one manual to another? Shouldn't the answer be to provide the capabilites rather than renege on marketing promises that people rely on in making purchasing decisions? At best, this company is guilty of incredible sloppiness in issuing product manuals. At worst, these are material misrepresentations of fact, aka false advertising.

OK, so I may doing something wrong with my HR10-250 as I have a wishlist for Los Lonely Boys, Elvis movies and some other wishlist items and my TIVO has recorded shows from channels that I do not receive (CBS and NBC from NY/LA, National PBS) and I do have it set correctly. I usually do not watch the programs because I do know that I don't receive those channels. Usually I go in and delete them from my To Do List when I find them set to record.

[MichaelP]

We have all been very patient about the Channels I Receive bug. If you're new here, you might have noticed that the list of channels you get is, every channel. If you don't pay for HBO, it's still on the list. If you don't get a sports package, it's on the list. If you don't get the porn channels, they're on the list.
....
FIX THIS. FIX THIS NOW. FIX THIS RIGHT.

[/rant]

I agree completely. Next to the extremely poor trick play functionality this is my second biggest gripe. Why o why do I have to have channels I don't even receive in my guide. There is no answer that will convince me this is a good idea.

Just give me the channels I receive fer Pete's sake.

[tucker301]

That is cool. Will another press get you a Favorites list? I'd still want to filter subscribed channels down to only the ones I care to watch. If D* goes with the CIR, FAV1, FAV2 pull down suggestion above, we could replicate that if they assigned the pull down to the blue button (when in guide), e.g. /steve


Good Question!

Here's the wording from the Users Guide.

Favorites Lists are lists of your favorite channels. You can create and change the lists yourself, adding and removing channels as you wish. Your favorite channels can be grouped into up to four lists for TV1 and four lists for TV2 (in Dual Mode).

•When using a Favorites List, the Program Guide and Browse Banner display only the channels in that Favorites List. Also, when you use the remote control UP or DOWN ARROW to change channels, the receiver skips channels that are not on the list.

•The All Chan list contains all the channels, including channels not in your current subscription. You cannot make any changes to the All Chan list.

•The All Sub list contains all the channels in your subscription. You cannot make any changes to the All Sub list, except by changing your subscription.
-edit by tucker301: This list updates itself automatically if new channels or free preview weekends are offered.

•Each Favorites List has a unique color in the Program Guide. You can give each list a name. When you first get the receiver, the four lists are named List 1, List 2, List 3, and List 4. The lists are empty until you add channels to them.

•When you put the receiver in Single Mode, the Favorites Lists for only TV1 are available. However, when you go back to Dual Mode, the Favorites Lists for TV2 are available again.

•If you choose a program using Themes or by entering a channel number using the remote controls, the receiver tunes to the channel for that program whether or not that channel is on the active Favorites List.

•You can include off-air channels in your Favorites Lists if an off-air antenna is connected to the receiver. See page108 for instructions on connecting an off-air antenna.

[Steve]

So when in single TV mode, E* stores 6 channel lists, four of which are user configurable. Using HR10-250 jargon, these lists would be called:

ALL
CIR
FAV 1-4

Seems like a pretty comprehensive solution. Probably a bit of overkill, IMO, but no one is forced to use it all.

/steve

[RobertE]

Any update on the status of the fix to CIR roll out? What receivers are the culprits?

[BJM]

And I know this has been asked multiple times, so I apologize in advance:

On the HR20, the "Channels I Get" list is *not* able to be changed, right?

[Earl Bonovich]

And I know this has been asked multiple times, so I apologize in advance:

On the HR20, the "Channels I Get" list is *not* able to be changed, right?

Correct

[Sirshagg]

I currently have the HR10-250 and am looking at getting an HR20. What does all this mean to me?

I can't change the CIR, but I can create a favorites list. When browsing the guide i can only see whats in my favorites. When searching for shows or using suggestions (whatever they are called on the HR20) the CIR is used.

Is this correct?
Can suggestions be disabled?

Thanks.

[Steve]

I currently have the HR10-250 and am looking at getting an HR20. What does all this mean to me?

I can't change the CIR, but I can create a favorites list. When browsing the guide i can only see whats in my favorites. When searching for shows or using suggestions (whatever they are called on the HR20) the CIR is used.

Is this correct?
Can suggestions be disabled?

Thanks.You can create a favorites list and filter the guide by it.
You can not (yet) filter search results by the favorites list.
At this time, the HR20 doesn't offer suggestions.

Hope this helps. /s

[Sirshagg]

You can create a favorites list and filter the guide by it.
You can not (yet) filter search results by the favorites list.
At this time, the HR20 doesn't offer suggestions.

Hope this helps. /s

So this is really only an issue when searching for shows? I don't mean to minimize the importance, but I persoanlly only search when setting up a season pass and if this is the case it would not really bother me.

[Earl Bonovich]

So this is really only an issue when searching for shows? I don't mean to minimize the importance, but I persoanlly only search when setting up a season pass and if this is the case it would not really bother me.

It also effects if you setup AutoRecords based on Searches.

[Sirshagg]

It also effects if you setup AutoRecords based on Searches.

makes sense since it's based on search. However I don't use auto record wishlists now so I don't see how this would affect me either.

Thanks for the replies. It seems that i can live with this for now.

[Milominderbinder2]

So this is really only an issue when searching for shows? I don't mean to minimize the importance, but I personally only search when setting up a season pass and if this is the case it would not really bother me.
Say you want to record your favorite team's games.

You can't do a Season Pass because a Season Pass requires the exact same title. If you set up a Season Pass for Mets @ Cubs, it will miss Cubs @ Mets or any other combination of teams.

So you have to do a keyword search on your team's name. But the HR20 will try to get you to record your team on a channel you can't even get!

It gets even more bazaar.

In the Guide if a channel is shown twice, the first occurrence is always the HD. Plus the HR20 will label the channels such as:
640 CSNH
640 CSN

In the search results, the HR20 does not put the HD channels first. Even if it would always put the HD last, you could remember that. But the HR20 lists the HD or SD channels but sorts them wrong! It is like playing Three Card Monty with a scam artist. You can never beat the HR20. It will trick you every time about which is the SD and HD.
EDIT: Thanks to Steve.

So I keep asking these questions...
1. You can filter on Cricket or Musicals. Why can't you filter out the channels you don't get? See link below.

2. How were they able to fix the sort order of the Guide but can't fix the sort order of the search results?

3. Why won't they reveal the channel labels in the search results like they do in the Guide?

I am sorry. I don't get it. Why did they make these desicions?

- Craig

[Steve]

In the search results, the HR20 does not put the HD channels first. Even if it would always put the HD last, you could remember that. But the HR20 randomly lists the HD or SD channels! It is like playing Three Card Monty with a scam artist. You can never beat the HR20. It will trick you every time about which is the SD and HD.I feel your pain and totally agree with your position. I just want to point out that I believe the current listing order is not random, but chronological, and then by ascending channel number. Not what I have chosen, but there is some logic to it.

As you know, my pet peeve is that the final search (the one after you select the channel you want from the initial keyword search), STILL brings up the whole bleepin list of different channels for the same show, instead of filtering by the specific channel I selected! /s

[Milominderbinder2]

I feel your pain and totally agree with your position. I just want to point out that I believe the current listing order is not random, but chronological, and then by ascending channel number. Not what I have chosen, but there is some logic to it.
You are right! That means that they are sorting the search results. They are just sorting them wrong! That means that they could fix this by just fixing their sort criteria!

What we need is chronological, then channel number, and then by HD and then SD just like the Guide.

Steve that is an excellent observation. It is often hard to set up a new sort routine. It is much easier to tweak your existing routine to go off of a different variable.

D*, Steve has found a part of your fix.

Dory: D*? Yoohoo? Are your there?

- Craig

[Steve]

You are right! That means that they are sorting the search results. They are just sorting them wrong! That means that they could fix this by just fixing their sort criteria!

What we need is chronological, then channel number, and then by HD and then SD just like the Guide.

Steve that is an excellent observation. It is often hard to set up a new sort routine. It is much easier to tweak your existing routine to go off of a different variable.

D*, Steve has found a part of your fix.

Dory: D*? Yoohoo? Are your there?

- CraigAnd the "second" part of the search (after you select a channel from the initial Keyword search results list, sorted as Craig described) should just returned a list of episodes on the "selected" channel, in chronological order.

And "Autorecord" should only record results for the "selected" (second part of the search) channel. /s

[Tom Robertson]

Thread has been closed per OP request.

Cheers,
Tom