622 OTA Signal Meter

[elbyj]

Okay -- How good is the OTA signal meter on the 622??? Trying to isolate an issue with my local NBC affiliate I connected the OTA feed directly to our Panasonic HD set. Ran through all the setup routines and found out that I couldn't receive a decent signal on any local OTA channel. The 622 was telling me my signal strength was 100, while the Panasonic gave the same channel a 16. Does the 622 have a built in atenuator for the OTA signal? Which one is correct??

[tnsprin]

Okay -- How good is the OTA signal meter on the 622??? Trying to isolate an issue with my local NBC affiliate I connected the OTA feed directly to our Panasonic HD set. Ran through all the setup routines and found out that I couldn't receive a decent signal on any local OTA channel. The 622 was telling me my signal strength was 100, while the Panasonic gave the same channel a 16. Does the 622 have a built in atenuator for the OTA signal? Which one is correct??

Maybe Both, actually they are not a specific signal strength (which would not be on scale of 1 to 100) but only valid between similar units.

[Stewart Vernon]

Unfortunately there really is no digital OTA signal meter standard across platforms... so there's no way to compare and get any meaningful data from the comparison.

I know it looks like a 100 on the ViP is good while a 16 on your TV is bad... but for all we know, the difference is not as wide of a gap as it appears.

It's kind of like someone saying to you "I have 5"... but you don't know what he has 5 of... so you don't know whether 5 is good, bad, or indifferent.

[Ron Barry]

Like others have said... not an apple to apple comparison. My understanding it he number the 622 puts out for the 622 is a signal to error ratio. From my experience, I start having trouble with the station with a signal around 60. I did take a look at channel 13 KCOP last night which usually breaks up a lot and found that is was doing good with a 67% reading. Not sure if something has changed or L4.03 helped me on on this channel.

so I guess my take on the answer to your question is like the others.. There is no way to compare different receivers based on this number. What matters is how well they lock and provide the picture in the end. For me.. I want to be above 65 but I am sure for others that number might be different.

[ssmith10pn]

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=DIGIAIRPRO

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/DIGIAIRPRO_zoom.gif

[Stewart Vernon]

I feel most comfortable when I can get 75 or better... but some channels behave differently than others. I have a PBS that is solid at 70-75, but an NBC that is flaky unless I get 80. I have Ion that seems solid at 63, but another channel that cuts out a lot at that same level.

That leads me to believe there is more going on than the signal level is meant to indicate. If it was purely signal-to-noise, with higher being better... I would assume that a 70, for instance, would be good no matter what the channel... but like I said, some of my channels lock in at lower levels than others.

Ultimately, I don't really care anymore what the levels say as long as I get a reliable signal lock. Reliable to me is when I have confidence that I can turn off the box, have a timer set to fire, and it will turn on and tune and lock without me there to tweak the antenna or anything... once I get that I stop messing with my antenna unless trying to get a new channel or something.

[elbyj]

Thanks to all who provided comments! However, the issue is basically as indicated by HDMe in the thread -- I have one OTA channel (NBC) that is hitting 100 continually on the 622, yet it is flaky and frequently a yellow screen pops up telling me I have lost the signal. All the network OTA channels, plus Fox have their transmitters mounted in one area so it is very easy to align the antenna and get 95-100 readings on all the channels. None of the channels act up, except for NBC. This is the reason I flipped the incoming OTA lead to the HD receiver to see if it improved, but all I get is a note on the screen telling me the signal is too weak to lock. To my mind this is very strange when I am using the same cable feed for both the 622 and the HD receiver, but the signal strength is totally reversed.

[SaltiDawg]

... -- I have one OTA channel (NBC) that is hitting 100 continually on the 622, yet it is flaky and frequently a yellow screen pops up telling me I have lost the signal. All the network OTA channels, plus Fox have their transmitters mounted in one area so it is very easy to align the antenna and get 95-100 readings on all the channels. ...
Is it possible that the NBC station id xmitting at a lower power and now that the trees are in bloom that they are causing an invcreased signal loss?

All of my OTA's are within 2 degrees of each other on two towers some 12 and 13 miles away. Only one of them come in reliably, and that only in the winter.

[ubankit]

Thanks to all who provided comments! However, the issue is basically as indicated by HDMe in the thread -- I have one OTA channel (NBC) that is hitting 100 continually on the 622, yet it is flaky and frequently a yellow screen pops up telling me I have lost the signal. All the network OTA channels, plus Fox have their transmitters mounted in one area so it is very easy to align the antenna and get 95-100 readings on all the channels. None of the channels act up, except for NBC. This is the reason I flipped the incoming OTA lead to the HD receiver to see if it improved, but all I get is a note on the screen telling me the signal is too weak to lock. To my mind this is very strange when I am using the same cable feed for both the 622 and the HD receiver, but the signal strength is totally reversed.

Did this start with the latest software update? L366 to 403? I've noticed since 403 that I don't get as quick a lock on the local PBS (kuht, 008-01, Houston) as before. My experience with ota is that on all digital stations that show 70 and above, the picture usually has little breakup/pixellation, etc. My guess would be that it's a problem with the local affiliate, not with the 622 or your tv tuner. You might get a contact name/email (probably in engineering?) at the station and ask them if something is up with their signal.

[elbyj]

To answer some of the questions --- no, trees are not causing the loss of signals, since the OTA antenna is mounted on top of a two story house and there are no trees at that height for a far as I can see! Yes, the situation with the NBC OTA was happening before 4.03. It just has to be something coming from their transmitters. Speakup any one from San Antonio who is receiving NBC (WOAI) via OTA to see if I am the only one with this issue!!!

[Rob Glasser]

There are so many factors that could be in play here it's really hard to try and diagnosis the problem. One thing it might be is multipathing where the signal is too strong and it can't keep a lock. Different receivers may report the signal different ways. If you haven't already your best bet might be to check out the San Antonio OTA thread over at AVSForum. Your more likely to find people there in your area that might be able to shed a light on your issue. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=137205, though a quick look over there and I think I see posts that are yours.

That being said if you can't get it to lock with your 622 and you can't get it to lock with your other HD receiver I don't think it's a 622 issue. If it was me I would try a different antenna or try moving the location of the antenna, and higher is not always better, especially if your dealing with multipathing.

One thing I learned from an installer that frequents the Seattle OTA thread is that you can never rely on your receivers signal meter, you really need to have professional gear that can show you how clean the signal is to tell if you have a good signal. When I set my antenna up I ended up trying 3 different locations and a variety of different antennas before I found my sweet spot.

How far away from the towers are you? What kind of antenna are you using?

[Paradox-sj]

If it is hitting 100 all the time it could be the single is just too strong....put a spliter on there to drop the DB a few and see if this resolves the issue. I had this problem until I split my ota 3 times with -3DB at each split....I get the station now.

[salemtubes]

Thanks to all who provided comments! However, the issue is basically as indicated by HDMe in the thread -- I have one OTA channel (NBC) that is hitting 100 continually on the 622, yet it is flaky and frequently a yellow screen pops up telling me I have lost the signal. All the network OTA channels, plus Fox have their transmitters mounted in one area so it is very easy to align the antenna and get 95-100 readings on all the channels. None of the channels act up, except for NBC. This is the reason I flipped the incoming OTA lead to the HD receiver to see if it improved, but all I get is a note on the screen telling me the signal is too weak to lock. To my mind this is very strange when I am using the same cable feed for both the 622 and the HD receiver, but the signal strength is totally reversed.

Is it possible that the NBC station is overloading the front end of your 622? Try putting the 10 dB attenuator that came with your 622 between it and your antenna's lead in.

[elbyj]

Rob and Paradox-sj,

The transmitting tower(s) for the three major networks are 21 miles away, as the crow flies! I am using a Radio Shack UHF antenna mounted on the roof. The signals are great on all channels that are coming from that general area. Yes, I am receiving a lock on the OTA NBC channel. After reading all the threads on AVSForum, I am convinced the issue with WOAI is multipathing. I am going to go back to AVSForum tonight to see how this can be resolved, so we can start receiving a constant audio/video signal on the channel to allow us to use the DVR. Also, I did try the recommendation to install a splinter on the OTA cable, but still no luck.

Thanks much for the comments.

[JM Anthony]

There are so many factors that could be in play here it's really hard to try and diagnosis the problem. One thing it might be is multipathing where the signal is too strong and it can't keep a lock. Different receivers may report the signal different ways. If you haven't already your best bet might be to check out the San Antonio OTA thread over at AVSForum. Your more likely to find people there in your area that might be able to shed a light on your issue. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=137205, though a quick look over there and I think I see posts that are yours.

That being said if you can't get it to lock with your 622 and you can't get it to lock with your other HD receiver I don't think it's a 622 issue. If it was me I would try a different antenna or try moving the location of the antenna, and higher is not always better, especially if your dealing with multipathing.

One thing I learned from an installer that frequents the Seattle OTA thread is that you can never rely on your receivers signal meter, you really need to have professional gear that can show you how clean the signal is to tell if you have a good signal. When I set my antenna up I ended up trying 3 different locations and a variety of different antennas before I found my sweet spot.

How far away from the towers are you? What kind of antenna are you using?


Rob is spot on. The installer he refers to did my home set up and he actually scopes each of the channels so you can see and optimize signal quality, which doesn't always match up with signal strength. If the San Antonio OTA thread is anything like the one we've got in Seattle, you'll find a wealth of good info. there, possibly someone who lives close to you who can give you some advice.

With OTA reception, small changes in antenna location can make a big difference. In my case, moving my antenna 50' from one end of the house to the other made all of the difference in the world.

Good luck!!

John

[Rob Glasser]

Not that it would solve your problem, but I am about the same distance as you from my towers and I ended up settling on the Channel Master 4221 for my UHF antenna. I'm not sure how it compares to the radio shack one but it works great for me. I got it for around $30.00 shipped from Solid Signal. This was after trying a Silver Sensor (ya I know I was dreaming) a more conventional yagi type antenna, and a 4228. Even though the 4228 is twice the size of the 4221 I found the 4221 got higher and more solid signals. I also tried 2 different locations on my roof and about 6 different heights before finding my sweet spot.

[elbyj]

Rob -- Thanks much! Now all I have to do is see how many headaches I am going to get dealing with our Homeowners Association concerning the antennas location.

[P Smith]

Oh boy - good luck ; it will be long and stupid battle :(.

[elbyj]

I just posted the same information on AVSFORUM -- got up this morning to find the signal strength for WOAI had dropped! Now receiving 85-88 constantly and guess what? No video or audio dropouts!!!! Yea!!!!:) Now did WOAI do something with the output of the transmitter or did last nights storm knock something loose? All we can hope is that WOAI will leave things alone and let us enjoy at least one day of viewing shows without all the dropouts!!! Thanks WOAI!!

[Rob Glasser]

Glad to hear it, hopefully it stays that way. If it doesn't and you or rather your home owners association is worried about aesthetics, I've heard from a local installer here in the Seattle Area that he has seen customers attach the CM4221 to walls and then paint them. You can paint everything except the contacts, wires, and bow ties, making the antenna pretty inconspicuous. This assumes that mounting the antenna to an external wall of your house is high enough and not in a spot that would be really ugly, i.e. next to your front door. The installs I've heard of like this are when the antenna is on the back or side of a house.

[JeffN9]

I just posted the same information on AVSFORUM -- got up this morning to find the signal strength for WOAI had dropped! Now receiving 85-88 constantly and guess what? No video or audio dropouts!!!! Yea!!!!:) Now did WOAI do something with the output of the transmitter or did last nights storm knock something loose? All we can hope is that WOAI will leave things alone and let us enjoy at least one day of viewing shows without all the dropouts!!! Thanks WOAI!!

Your relief will most likely be short lived. Chances are that the storm caused only a temporary signal drop. Like others have said you should install some type of attenuator in the antenna line to permanently drop the signal.

I went through the same thing a few months ago and after deciding that the signal was too high for one problem channel in my area I installed a variable attenuator in the line. I dropped the signal from 100 down to about 94 and bingo the problem went away, or so I thought. The channel was fine until I received L4.03 on the 12th, (previously had L3.66) and then the problem was back big time. The channel now freezes constantly and I occasionally get the yellow "lost ota signal" screen that you describe.

After communicating with E* via e-mails to tech support they have admitted to me that this problem is a known issue with some receivers and they hope to correct it with a future software update.

So I hope dropping the signal works for you. It did for me, at least for a while.

[elbyj]

Yes, my hopes came crashing down this afternoon when I called my wife to have her check the signal strength on WOAI. Back to 100 once again with the same issues. May I guess that you are talking about an antenuator like you would buy at Radio Shack?? I will need to make sure the antenuator I buy doesn't increase the signal, but lowers it! I will check to see if it works. If not, it may be time to buy that new UHF antenna and find a way to hide it!

Thanks much

[JeffN9]

Yes, my hopes came crashing down this afternoon when I called my wife to have her check the signal strength on WOAI. Back to 100 once again with the same issues. May I guess that you are talking about an antenuator like you would buy at Radio Shack?? I will need to make sure the antenuator I buy doesn't increase the signal, but lowers it! I will check to see if it works. If not, it may be time to buy that new UHF antenna and find a way to hide it!

Thanks much
Attenuators by themselves will not boost your signal. They are designed to decrease it. Radio Shack apparently doesn't have them anymore, at least not the variable ones. You should check with places that actually do antenna installs or maybe do some searches on line.

Anything that you put into the antenna line, (like a splitter) will drop the signal somewhat. You can even use the attenuator that came with your 622. It was included to use on your remote antenna jack to cut down on signal in case your neighbor started changing your channels with his UHF remote but you can use it on the OTA antenna line also. Perhaps it will cut the signal enough by itself.

[elbyj]

I tried the antenuator that came with my 622, but that did nothing to lower the signal on the OTA input. I check around town to see if anybody has a variable antenuator.

Thanks

[tnsprin]

I tried the antenuator that came with my 622, but that did nothing to lower the signal on the OTA input. I check around town to see if anybody has a variable antenuator.

Thanks

Note that if the strength meter does measure signal to noise ratio (reported earlier in this thread) than the antenuator might not effect the strength shone at all.

[JeffN9]

I tried the antenuator that came with my 622, but that did nothing to lower the signal on the OTA input. I check around town to see if anybody has a variable antenuator.

Thanks

I think that I noticed the same thing when I tried to use that attenuator by itself. I believe that someone mentioned earlier that it is only a 3db which isn't very much. It's hard to say how much of a drop you need though. Did it help at all? At least with a variable one you can experiment until you find the level of signal drop that you need. Remember though that you are lowering the signal on all of your channels, not just the problem one. If any of your other channels were weak to begin with you might drop them to the point where they start having problems.

[Slordak]

Note that if the strength meter does measure signal to noise ratio (reported earlier in this thread) than the antenuator might not effect the strength shone at all.
... But it might still address the problem (of an overamplified signal).

[Kent Taylor]

... But it might still address the problem (of an overamplified signal).

OK, this may not be the group to which this should be addressed, but since we're on the subject I have a question about OTA signals. I have a Channel Master 3010 in my attic that works fine except for my local FOX channel which is on channel 5.1. Also, my ABC channel which is on channel 2.1 is a little weak as well. My channel 17.1, WTBS, is very strong nearing the 100 mark on the meter. I am considering swapping out the 3010 for a CM-3020 which, according to the specs, will basically double the distance of VHF/UHF as 100 miles and 60 miles respectively. I am about 21 miles from the transmitters and have composite shingles on my roof and my house is two story with a clear shot to the direction of the transmitters. Am I going to run into the issue of too strong a signal by doing this or is there no way to tell until I install the 3020? Again, I apologize if this is the wrong forum to ask this.
TIA