Native On or Off??

[Duffycoug]

I have a Sony Plasma that can recognize 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i....should I have each of these checked in the setup and should I have the native on or off? The installer set it up by checking all four formats and had the native off. I then changed the native on and kept all four checked, but that seemed to slow down the time while switching channels. I then checked only 1080i and put the native off.......any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated....how would you set up your system?

I have the receiver hooked directly to the TV with an HDMI cable if that matters.

[veryoldschool]

This has & will be questioned...well forever so here is a thread that should give you some idea of what is happening: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=81801

[Duffycoug]

Wow, I'm more confused than ever after reading that thread...LOL...sounds like I should have the native off and have all formats checked??....or maybe native on, and all formats checked??.....then you talk of 1080p, mine only has 1080i....this is CRAZY!!

I guess to sum it up it's whatever I think looks best should be my choice, but could you tell me what SHOULD be the best setup for my situation......42" Plasma with the follow resolutions supported, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. I use an HMDI, which I guess shouldn't matter at all, but I again throw it in there. How would YOU have that set up in your house? :)

Also, I have my TV set to "Full" screen and the receiver set to "Stretch", which I like the best. Should I try to let the TV do the stretch, would that make any difference? If so, what setting should the receiver be on?

Sorry to bombard you, but you sound very knowledgable about this.

Thanks a ton!!

[CCarncross]

A 'safe" answer is whatever the native resolution of your specific model of tv is, will most likely look best if you leave it in that resolution all the time. For example, if the set you have is one of those 1366x768 native res sets, than 720p is probably your best bet. But you are correct, in that it is all what looks best to your eyes for your particular set.

[veryoldschool]

A 'safe" answer is whatever the native resolution of your specific model of tv is, will most likely look best if you leave it in that resolution all the time. For example, if the set you have is one of those 1366x768 native res sets, than 720p is probably your best bet. But you are correct, in that it is all what looks best to your eyes for your particular set.
Just to add to the mix the video resolution is: Resolution 1024 x 1024
which isn't either 720p or 1080i
Given this, I wouldn't check 1080i & might just leave this set to 720p & 480p.
The bummer is that 1280 x 720 [720p] doesn't all fit without some "de-scaling". A 1080i would need to be even more so there is no reason to use it with this TV [just let the HR-20 take care of it].
So: it sort of would come down to: native on with 720p & 480p, or native off and 720p only.

[machavez00]

If your set supports all resolutions over HDMI I would leave native on with a resolutions checked. This lets the TV do all the scaling. My Sammy(native 720p) does not support 480i over HDMI. I have native on:720p/1080i selected. This is minimizes the amount of scaling done to SD (480i>480p>720p) and lets the Sammy handle the HD

[shmengie]

me, personally, i decided that slow channel changing is a fair trade-off for the 'smarts' of having native on. sure, the first couple of days with the new setup, i think everyone is tempted to have everything in widescreen. but, as roseanne barr is fat enough already, i decided to let the programs get viewed as intended. so, i leave native on and let my tv handle the scaling. sure, it takes 2-3 seconds when it changes modes, but the overall experience is worth it.

y'all owe me 2 cents...

[BillyBob_jcv]

Just to add to the mix the video resolution is: Resolution 1024 x 1024
which isn't either 720p or 1080i
Given this, I wouldn't check 1080i & might just leave this set to 720p & 480p.
The bummer is that 1280 x 720 [720p] doesn't all fit without some "de-scaling". A 1080i would need to be even more so there is no reason to use it with this TV [just let the HR-20 take care of it].
So: it sort of would come down to: native on with 720p & 480p, or native off and 720p only.

I believe the last 42" Sony plasmas were 1024x1024, but the 50" were 1365x768.

On my Pioneer 5070 (1365x768), setting the HR20 to native off and locked to 1080i via HDMI seems to give me the best overall combination of PQ and channel change performance. I liked the 1080i PQ better than 720p for most channels I watch, and the difference was subtle enough that I just leave it on 1080i. YMMV.

[veryoldschool]

I believe the last 42" Sony plasmas were 1024x1024, but the 50" were 1365x768.

On my Pioneer 5070 (1365x768), setting the HR20 to native off and locked to 1080i via HDMI seems to give me the best overall combination of PQ and channel change performance. I liked the 1080i PQ better than 720p for most channels I watch, and the difference was subtle enough that I just leave it on 1080i. YMMV.
You've found what you like, which is the final factor.
"Technically" interlacing a 720p and scaling it up to 1080i and then having the TV "de-scale" it to fix your display, would make for picture quality issues.
This just shows that what you like is the right solution for you, period. It doesn't matter what some "expert" has determined from any lab testing with x,y, or z being used.
What you like, is what "is right" for you. All of our mileage will vary, as does all of our equipment & preferences do. :D

[Titan25]

Wow, I'm more confused than ever after reading that thread...LOL...sounds like I should have the native off and have all formats checked??....or maybe native on, and all formats checked??.....then you talk of 1080p, mine only has 1080i....this is CRAZY....
Welcome to the wonderful world of HD!! No longer can you just turn on your TV and watch TV! :)

Seriously, the Native On/Off decision needs to based upon the relative merits of the scaling (resolution conversion), 3:2 pulldown (film/video framerate compensation), and deinterlacing (converting an "i" signal to a "p" display) capabilities of your TV versus the HR20. Home Theater magazine does a review of TVs each year and tests these factors. Pioneer and Panasonic generally do best (with some variation between models and years) in the plasma category, while Sony and Samsung usually do best among LCDs.

There has been lots of theorizing that the HR20 has access to data that will allow it to do a better job, but no one has ever proven this (and is really based upon a lot of speculation and guesswork). The HR20 has generally been reported to do as good a job at the above three factors as a mid-range HDTV (i.e., it's not bad at it, but not the best either).

So, if you goal is the best PQ, then check to see the test results for you particular TV and if it does all of the above tasks correctly, set Native Mode to "on". If you set fails to perform correctly on 2 or more of the 3 factors, then set Native Mode to "off" and choose the resolution that matches you TV's native resolution (i.e. the actual pixel resolution of the display).

On the other hand, if quicker channel changes are more important to you than the last few percent of PQ, then you should ALWAYS set Native Mode to "off" and use your TV's native resolution for output.

The best advice is to experiment a bit and choose what works for you.

[veryoldschool]

There has been lots of theorizing that the HR20 has access to data that will allow it to do a better job, but no one has ever proven this (and is really based upon a lot of speculation and guesswork).
I'm not a software type [but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night].
What the HR-20 has that the TV doesn't, is access to the motion vectoring data, so if I do understand what this means is: the interlacing or de-interlacing will be done better by the HR-20. As you know there are two parts: scaling & scan type. The HR-20 may or may not do scaling better, but converting the scan type should [for these reasons]. :)

[Titan25]

Sure, the HR20 MAY have access to this data, but, AFAIK, no one has ever shown that it actually uses it in any way.

In my personal experience (based upon my eyeballs, not any actual objective tests) my Panasonic 50" plasma (TH-50PX600U) does a noticeably better job at deinterlacing 1080i content than does the HR20. It does a FAR better job with de-interlacing and up-rezzing 480i content. YMMV.

[veryoldschool]

Sure, the HR20 MAY have access to this data, but, AFAIK, no one has ever shown that it actually uses it in any way.
"I think" you would need to break down the decoding chip to know..
I can tell [see] the difference when an interlaced program [commercial] is shown on a progressive channel. FWIW

[lflorack]

Sure, the HR20 MAY have access to this data, but, AFAIK, no one has ever shown that it actually uses it in any way.

In my personal experience (based upon my eyeballs, not any actual objective tests) my Panasonic 50" plasma (TH-50PX600U) does a noticeably better job at deinterlacing 1080i content than does the HR20. It does a FAR better job with de-interlacing and up-rezzing 480i content. YMMV.

I agree with you. My Sony KDS-R60XBR1 does a much better job than the HR20-700 on both 1080i and 480i de-interlacing. Like you, this is observational only. My opinion is that this is what I'd expect of a good HDTV.

[Titan25]

I may be mistaken, but would this not also only apply to MPEG4 channels? Only MPEG4 has motion vector data, AFAIK. It would also only be relevant to video original content (since film would already be "motion sorted" by the 3:2 process).

So, even if the HR20 uses such data, it will only make a difference for 1080i video original source material that was directly encoded into MPEG4. Since most (if not all) of the content on DirecTV is received by DirecTV as MPEG2 encoded content, I'm not sure where they would get the motion vector data anyway.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[veryoldschool]

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
You have just gone beyond my knowledge base.
I will: say what I know, say what I think, and say I don't know, when the first two don't work anymore.

Maybe someone can "pick it up from here". :)

EDIT FWIW: I have a HTPC that takes OTA 1080i [MPEG-2] and displays it in 1080p and it doesn't show any interlacing problems, so doesn't this suggest it isn't just MPEG-4?

[veryoldschool]

I like it when somebody make me think...
Given that I'm using 480p and not 480i, and I see no signs of interlacing/progressive scan issues, I think this would show that the HR-20 does have access to the data for MPEG-2 programs. :)

[Titan25]

Well, to quote one of my chemistry professors in college: "absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence."

IOW, unless you DO see interlacing/progressive scan issues when using native=on, and these issues disappear with native=off, you might simply be looking at content that does not display these artifacts at all.

I don't see these artifacts either, and I'm letting my TV do the de-interlacing.

I really think that there are so many things going on in getting the average video source to our TV screens that trying to isolate one factor or another is really difficult.

[veryoldschool]

Well, to quote one of my chemistry professors in college: "absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence."

IOW, unless you DO see interlacing/progressive scan issues when using native=on, and these issues disappear with native=off, you might simply be looking at content that does not display these artifacts at all.

I don't see these artifacts either, and I'm letting my TV do the de-interlacing.

I really think that there are so many things going on in getting the average video source to our TV screens that trying to isolate one factor or another is really difficult.
I completely agree. I was "suggesting" as you know.

I don't "see" your native on/off "test" though. Here is why: with native on and my output set to 480p, if there wasn't de-interlacing being done by the HR-20, since my TV isn't doing anything but scaling the picture, I should see the problem. If I was using native off, then HR-20 would output what ever resolution I set it to [still de-interlacing as needed though].
Back to an earlier post, it would really come down to the chip's internal functions, which I've had discussions with some people that are involved with [and how I now can tell the scan defects].
Simply put: with the HR-20, there is no way that the output can be configured so it doesn't de-interlace when needed.
Also to go back to my HTPC that doesn't have the decoding chip, it does take MPEG-2 and de-interlace 1080i to 1080p.
While this might not meet: "absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence." I am leaning more towards "it does". FWIW

[Titan25]

...Simply put: with the HR-20, there is no way that the output can be configured so it doesn't de-interlace when needed...
Well, here is my observational evidence, in a nutshell:

I have my HR20 set to "native=on" and all 4 output resolutions enabled. I am also connected via HDMI. When I tune to a SD channel (a standard DirecTV channel, not a HD channel currently carrying SD content) my TV reports that it is getting 480i (i.e. the HR20 is not de-interlacing). When I tune to a 1080i HD channel (e.g. HBOHD) the TV reports it is getting 1080i (still no de-interlacing). If I tune to a 720p channel (e.g ESPNHD) my TV reports it is getting a 720p input. So, it seems to me, that the HR20 is in these cases simply decoding the MPEG (whichever flavor) and passing the decoded bits over HDMI.

Perhaps I am missing something, and/or misunderstand what is going on inside the HR20. :confused:

[veryoldschool]

Well, here is my observational evidence, in a nutshell:

I have my HR20 set to "native=on" and all 4 output resolutions enabled. I am also connected via HDMI. When I tune to a SD channel (a standard DirecTV channel, not a HD channel currently carrying SD content) my TV reports that it is getting 480i (i.e. the HR20 is not de-interlacing). When I tune to a 1080i HD channel (e.g. HBOHD) the TV reports it is getting 1080i (still no de-interlacing). If I tune to a 720p channel (e.g ESPNHD) my TV reports it is getting a 720p input. So, it seems to me, that the HR20 is in these cases simply decoding the MPEG (whichever flavor) and passing the decoded bits over HDMI.

Perhaps I am missing something, and/or misunderstand what is going on inside the HR20. :confused:
With your settings there is no need to de-interlace. Now either go to native off [and select 480p] or uncheck 480i, and then a SD channel will be de-interlaced [to 480p from the original 480i] right?
The only time I've seen artifacting due to this was when tuned to a 720p and watching a commercial with some motion & then watching the same one on a 1080i channel. This is where the programing was "in error" as the HR-20 wasn't needing to de-interlace [720p] but the commercial was interlaced.
I think most new TVs that are not CRT based, actually display the images in progressive, so there is so much going on with the signal before we finally get to see it.
I would love it if the HR-20 could output 1080p [from the 1080i signal], but I'm told that the chip can't do it. FWIW

[Titan25]

Right...and since I see no interlacing artifacts on my HDMI connected TV, I'm concluding the successful deinterlacng is not dependant upon motion vector data, since this would not be passed via HDMI (presumably).

[veryoldschool]

Right...and since I see no interlacing artifacts on my HDMI connected TV, I'm concluding the successful deinterlacng is not dependant upon motion vector data, since this would not be passed via HDMI (presumably).
:confused: Yes, it isn't passed through HDMI.
So you're basing this on?...Your TV taking a 480i and displaying it as 480i? :confused:
As you might guess I like to "think through" the "what's happening", so could you give me the "test conditions" please? :)

[RunnerFL]

Best thing to do...

Record "Test Pattern" from HDNet. Yes, the description says it's a Canadian game show but it's not. It's a 10 minute test pattern for HD.

Once you have it recorded play it once with Native Off, letting the HR20 handle resolution for you. Then run it again with Native On, letting your TV handle resolution, and see which you prefer.

[veryoldschool]

Best thing to do...

Record "Test Pattern" from HDNet. Yes, the description says it's a Canadian game show but it's not. It's a 10 minute test pattern for HD.

Once you have it recorded play it once with Native Off, letting the HR20 handle resolution for you. Then run it again with Native On, letting your TV handle resolution, and see which you prefer.
Can you give more information please?
I just scanned through a week's programing and can't find anything close to it.
If you know the time & date, please give it with your timezone too as I'm on the other coast. Thanks.

[Titan25]

:confused: Yes, it isn't passed through HDMI.
So you're basing this on?...Your TV taking a 480i and displaying it as 480i? :confused:
As you might guess I like to "think through" the "what's happening", so could you give me the "test conditions" please? :)
Remember that my TV is a Panasonic plasma. It ALWAYS displays 1366x768p, regardless of the input. Therefore, when the input is 480i, it is deinterlacing and rescaling up to 768p. When the input is 1080i, it is deinterlacing and scaling down to 768p.

[davring]

Can you give more information please?
I just scanned through a week's programing and can't find anything close to it.
If you know the time & date, please give it with your timezone too as I'm on the other coast. Thanks.

Test Pattern...6:50 AM Ch 79 Sun Morning

[veryoldschool]

Test Pattern...6:50 AM Ch 79 Sun Morning
As in I just missed it? :lol:
Is that east coast time?

[Titan25]

Link to Home Theater Magazine article which details the deinterlacing abilities of various HDTVs (input via component cables, so based purely upon internal digital processing of the image):

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/index.html

BTW, they also tested the inverse telecine processing and most TVs failed this test. Somewhat amazingly, 54% failed the deinterlacing test, 80% failed the inverse telecine test, and only 8 TVs (13%) passed both tests.

[veryoldschool]

Link to Home Theater Magazine article which details the deinterlacing abilities of various HDTVs (input via component cables, so based purely upon internal digital processing of the image):

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/index.html

BTW, they also tested the inverse telecine processing and most TVs failed this test. Somewhat amazingly, 54% failed the deinterlacing test, 80% failed the inverse telecine test, and only 8 TVs (13%) passed both tests.
Yes that has been posted before. What would next make sense it to have the HR-20 tested...:lol:

[Titan25]

Yes that has been posted before. What would next make sense it to have the HR-20 tested...:lol:
Yes, testing the HR20 would be interesting. If it does 3:2 pulldown correctly it would seem that would be a major advantage.

My point regarding the link is that successful deinterlacing is not dependant upon access to motion vector data (although it might make it easier), since many TVs do it based upon analog HD input.

Anyway, bottom line is that any viewer should decide what looks best to them! All of this discussion is mainly useful to help us all "think it through" and give some hints about what to look for.

[veryoldschool]

Anyway, bottom line is that any viewer should decide what looks best to them! All of this discussion is mainly useful to help us all "think it through" and give some hints about what to look for.
Yep,
I like to keep "thinking"...:D

[RunnerFL]

Can you give more information please?
I just scanned through a week's programing and can't find anything close to it.
If you know the time & date, please give it with your timezone too as I'm on the other coast. Thanks.

It's on every Sunday morning. Just search on "Test Pattern" and you'll find it.

[RunnerFL]

As in I just missed it? :lol:
Is that east coast time?

As in you'll have to wait until next week, yes. And yes that's Eastern time.

[veryoldschool]

As in you'll have to wait until next week, yes. And yes that's Eastern time.
Thanks :)

[davring]

As in I just missed it? :lol:
Is that east coast time?

East coast every Sunday morning, nice sequence of screens, resolution, overscan, etc...

[Duffinator]

Best thing to do...

Record "Test Pattern" from HDNet. Yes, the description says it's a Canadian game show but it's not. It's a 10 minute test pattern for HD.

Once you have it recorded play it once with Native Off, letting the HR20 handle resolution for you. Then run it again with Native On, letting your TV handle resolution, and see which you prefer.Excellent suggestion. I've have it scheduled to record next Sunday. I just changed mine to native on and the channels do change more slowly. But my initial impression is the PQ does look better. I'll leave this way for the next week and see how it goes.