Larger building (12-unit) system design advice?

[jefe303]

Hello,

We've got a 12-unit condominium project that we completed last year. As part of the initial design process, our AV company installed a single master dtv dish in an inconspicuous spot for all of the units to share. The building was completed ~Feb 06, so it's of the older 3LNB type. This feeds down to the underground garage, where we have building wire management / cabling. The AV company installed a Spaun 5x12 switch for further distribution. This has proven inadequate, and a combonation of DTV installers and AV installers have turned this into a multiswitch rats nest.

Well, suprise, it doesnt work. Because of the number of cascaded multiswitches in some instances, some units loose some transponders. There's also the issue of everybody having their shiny new HR20s and no MPEG4 locals. I'm quite certain of a small riot come this fall with the addition of the MPEG4 nationals.

I want to start from scratch. The units were _expensive_, we can afford to do this right. I've done some research, and this is what I've come up with. I would greatly appreciate it if some gurus could evaluate what I've chosen.


Here's the BEEF:

What we _HAVE_:

3LNB dish on roof soffit, 40' above ground. Replace with Slimline. Spanish tile roof requires creative engineering. Can we mount the new dish on something attached to the soffit? Walls are brick, south side of the building is the front, so no dice.

5x RG6 Quad shield from dish to garage

4x12 Spaun switch (3LNB)

From the wiring room, we have 4 RG6 run to every unit, terminating in a wire management cabinet. Right now, units get 2 feeds from the basement, that get further split within the unit from this cabinet. Each room has 2 TV spots, with 2 cat5+ 2 rg6 at each. 3 RG6 to the living room TV spot.


Since there's no SWM of this scale yet, we've got to stick with what's available now.
I figure, since every unit has 4 incoming RG6, we can just turn them all up and they can be split within the unit. Each unit has either 2.5 or 3 bedrooms, so I think it's realistic to assume that we may get 1-2 HR20s per unit, or 1-HR20 and a small number of H20, R15, D1x, etc. With 4 incoming coax, you could support either 2 HR20s or 1 HR20 on 2 of the lines, with a 2x4 or whatever multiswitch to run older stuff.

New setup:

Slimline dish -> 4x sonara in-line amplifiers -> Sonara HRPID1422 power inserter for AT9/Slimline

Splitter city: Don't know exactly which one to use, SolidSignal has an Eagle Aspen 1x4 Power passive splitter, part P-2150-4AP-GX.

Anyways, 4 of those, feeding 3 Spaun WBS41602NF 4x16 wideband switches.

From here, to the units, happiness and peace of mind achieved.



Other than that, my only other idea is to come up with a way to take the splitter approach to the extreme, and end up with direct split connections from the dish inside each unit's wiring closet, and they can throw on whatever wb68, swm, or someone else that comes down the line on their own connections and be totally responsible for it themselves. That's my favorite way, but I haven't figured out a way to do it.


Any way we go, it requires some changes within the units. Those spaun switches are 550 each, too. Plus the poor hands of the guy that has to crimp all those ends :)

Sorry for the verbosity, am I on the right track? We have a 14-unit starting, and a few 6-units to retrofit with this system.


Oh yeah, other alternative... temporary fix until something "better" comes along. We have an extra spaun 4x16 switch. Split the lines coming in from the sat on the existing 3LNB, throw the 4x16 on there, and give everyone 2 solid connections to their unit. Until the giant SWM solution comes out :) (if there is such a beast).



THANKS!
Jeff

[Tom Robertson]

Dish recieves and then feeds 48 outputs? hmmm...
Option #1: MDU (might be most expensive option, but also one of the very best.)
Option #2: cascaded WB616s feeding WB68s in each unit.
Option #3: cascaded wb616s feeding SWMs in each unit (down the road)

If the WB616s don't cascade, you could take a feed from the satellite and use a good 3way powerpass splitter to the WB616s. I have seen them on solidsignal's site.

Edit: the spaun's sound expensive and likely don't do the whole frequency range. The WB616s are $129 each and meant to handle the whole satellite frequency range.

2nd Edit: The spauns will handle the range, but the splitters listed don't. I'll post a link to a suitable splitter.

Good luck and keep us updated!
Tom

[jonaswan2]

My vote goes to MDU, too :D.

[veryoldschool]

Here are a couple of links, one you may have already seen & the other is for much more extensive system:
http://www.nasproducts.com/
http://www.sonoradesign.com/newpdfs/Sheet_HRPID1422_11.pdf
"I think" you could multiply the Sonora system to work, but there may be something from NAS that could work better.
I think you'll find answers to what ever you want to do here, from the members.

[Tom Robertson]

This splitter should work: http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/BZT3WayALL_Satellite-Splitter.htm

Cheers,
Tom

[jefe303]

I've seen the NAS stuff before. I was under the impression that their stuff is currently obsolete because of the Ka dish?

Just checked their site, it's not updated for the new system yet, or I'd be all over it!


My AV people told me to stay away from Zinwell, the Spaun units are powered (maybe not necessary with the power Sonora power inserter). With the cheaper price of the Zinwell units I could just buy a hotspare :)

I've also tried to contact the DTV MDU people, I think we're wedged in that spot where we're too small for them to care, but too big for a standard solution.

At least we have 4 RG6's into every unit!


Edit:
Ka multiswitches are not cascadable, they'll lose the mpeg4 channels. Could cascade to take care of older receivers, but that doesn't seem elegant or permanent.

[Tom Robertson]

The WB616 is powered, hence my suggestion. And would eliminate the need for power lockers (as would the spaun). But an amplifier might be needed for a 3way split and if you have long cable runs.

This is an interesting project. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

This is an interesting project. :)

Cheers,
Tom
As if we won't be following this....:D

[jefe303]

So --

Better to throw some amplifiers near the dish, use the signal locker, and maybe an array of 8way splitters from that same site? BZT8WayALL (http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/BZT8WayALL_8-Way_Satellite_CATV_splitter.htm). Maybe use a 2way right at the beginning to even things out. That gets me 64 outputs for people to throw wb68's on. Some unused but I guess that's the way it works.

Or the 3way splitters and 3 wb616's. (can't be expanded within the unit).

Plus this thing has to be DirecTV installation tech-proof :)

[Tom Robertson]

So --

Better to throw some amplifiers near the dish, use the signal locker, and maybe an array of 8way splitters from that same site? BZT8WayALL (http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/BZT8WayALL_8-Way_Satellite_CATV_splitter.htm). Maybe use a 2way right at the beginning to even things out. That gets me 64 outputs for people to throw wb68's on. Some unused but I guess that's the way it works.

Or the 3way splitters and 3 wb616's. (can't be expanded within the unit).

Plus this thing has to be DirecTV installation tech-proof :)

Now you've really gone round the bend. D* tech-proof! :D :D :D

I'm thinking the WB616s are a better choice as splitters will attenuate the signal more than a multiswitch.

I think I would go:

dish->3ways->3 WB616s->units and let the units either direct cable or install switches as needed.

By using switches, any line can take any LNB choice. By using lots of splitters, each unit would be required to put in a switch to select the 1 of 4 states the tuner could request.

Without knowing the length of the cable runs, its hard to say if I'd go with amplifiers or not. I might be temped to install one unit and see what signal strengths I'd get. If too weak as compared to at the garage, I'd then get the amplifiers. I would not get lockers, the WB616s do that.

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

So --

Better to throw some amplifiers near the dish, use the signal locker, and maybe an array of 8way splitters from that same site? BZT8WayALL (http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/BZT8WayALL_8-Way_Satellite_CATV_splitter.htm). Maybe use a 2way right at the beginning to even things out. That gets me 64 outputs for people to throw wb68's on. Some unused but I guess that's the way it works.

Or the 3way splitters and 3 wb616's. (can't be expanded within the unit).

Plus this thing has to be DirecTV installation tech-proof :)
I was having a smoke and just think about that...
I've been splitting signals since before I was gray...
I think your on the right track.
The amps would be needed in a place that there was already some loss so they would limit. Where needs to be looked at [and therefore how many].
The locker seems the right way to go and then splitting the four feeds. If each unit has a location where they could then add their multi-switch or SWM unit, it would give each unit the freedom to do whatever their needs.
Just a "rough draft" at this point.
I wired up an aircraft off of a bar napkin from the NCO club once...:D

[veryoldschool]

Now you've really gone round the bend. D* tech-proof! :D :D :D

I'm thinking the WB616s are a better choice as splitters will attenuate the signal more than a multiswitch.

I think I would go:

dish->3ways->3 WB616s->units and let the units either direct cable or install switches as needed.

By using switches, any line can take any LNB choice. By using lots of splitters, each unit would be required to put in a switch to select the 1 of 4 states the tuner could request.

Without knowing the length of the cable runs, its hard to say if I'd go with amplifiers or not. I might be temped to install one unit and see what signal strengths I'd get. If too weak as compared to at the garage, I'd then get the amplifiers. I would not get lockers, the WB616s do that.

Cheers,
Tom
And why there are horse races...Fords & Chevys too. :lol:

[Tom Robertson]

My biggest problems with the split many ways are:

each unit would not be required to have a switch
each cable could have to be very clearly labeled
each cable changes conceptually. Instead of being a cable to a receiver as they are out of the dish, they become 1/4th of a solution.


To me that last one makes the "solution" less likely to be tech-proof or more prone to mistakes. More documentation would be required to each unit to prevent mistakes.

Cheers,
Tom

[jefe303]

It's about a 27000 sq ft building. Dish is probably ~150' away from the wiring closet, depending on the route they took with their cables. Farthest unit would be 150' back.



Dish is ontop of the entrance ramp to underground garage 40' up, have to rent one of those crazy spider leg lifts to get to it, as its on the incline! At least we don't have to worry about trees :)


What do you think about the dish mounting to the soffit? Right now it's a Phase 3 on a little bar that extends out. Need to beef that up to a 2x12 platform or even a LVL seriously lag bolted in to the underside of the rafters?


If going with the splitter route, well, I guess we could provide the WB68's to each unit upon initial installation. Then attach a sheet and label the wires inside the cabinet. Access would be an issue, but I bet the residents will quickly cooperate when their TV suddenly goes out after sufficient notice :)

[veryoldschool]

My biggest problems with the split many ways are:

each unit would [not] be required to have a switch
each cable could have to be very clearly labeled
each cable changes conceptually. Instead of being a cable to a receiver as they are out of the dish, they become 1/4th of a solution.
To me that last one makes the "solution" less likely to be tech-proof or more prone to mistakes. More documentation would be required to each unit to prevent mistakes.

Cheers,
Tom
Granted.
Cables could be color coded [shrink tubing].
On the "upside" each unit would be "unlimited" [but needing a multi-switch minimum] if they went with a SWM.
From the building side, wouldn't splitters & amps be simpler & maybe cheaper?
Also trouble shooting should be easier as "what is from the dish" is all constant. [I may be reaching at this point.]

Sort of like four cables TV systems coming to each unit.

[Tom Robertson]

Yup, get the amplifiers--300' to the wiring closets in the units will likely require the boost. :)

And also make the install point as solid as you possibly can. Either a flat plate of steel or 2x12 (or 2x8) that spans two rafters. Them's strong winds you can get down there. :D

Cheers,
Tom

[jefe303]

You know, the splitters aren't that expensive.. I could setup a test rig with the right cable lenghts, in fact I could use the same type of cable. I've got a signal locker already that i could hijack. Also a few WB68s. The family might not be too happy about hijacking all their gear though.

Thanks for all the input, I know just enough to be dangerous and this is the perfect place to bounce ideas off of others with experience :)

[jefe303]

Oh, another curveball:

We've got 4 channels of CCTV cameras currently diplexed in. ;)
Currently in the high UHF range (i think upper-60's), but the units are channel selectable.

[veryoldschool]

You know, the splitters aren't that expensive.. I could setup a test rig with the right cable lenghts, in fact I could use the same type of cable. I've got a signal locker already that i could hijack. Also a few WB68s. The family might not be too happy about hijacking all their gear though.

Thanks for all the input, I know just enough to be dangerous and this is the perfect place to bounce ideas off of others with experience :)
I think the "brain trust" here will correct any discrepancies in you plans. :D

[veryoldschool]

Oh, another curveball:

We've got 4 channels of CCTV cameras currently diplexed in. ;)
Currently in the high UHF range (i think upper-60's), but the units are channel selectable.
Well you won't have them diplexed for long, as those frequencies will be used with the new SATs coming on-line this fall.

[Tom Robertson]

Oh, another curveball:

We've got 4 channels of CCTV cameras currently diplexed in. ;)
Currently in the high UHF range (i think upper-60's), but the units are channel selectable.

Curve ball=SWM or MDU. But SWM would give you an option for OTA as well if needed.

Cheers,
Tom

[jefe303]

Quick checking -- The BBCs go from 200-750mhz right? Could diplex 4 channels in on one of the 4 cables, say even channels 2,3,4,5. Wikipedia says that tops out at 82Mhz. Pull them out before they get to a WB68 in the unit, then let the resident decide what they want to do with them. I seem to recall reading about this somewhere on here, but I guess nobody will know _for sure_ until the birds are in the air.

-Jeff

[Tom Robertson]

You might be able to use 2, 4, 6, & 7. That would top out just below the 200mhz. (6 & 7 are in difference frequency bands so you can use "adjacent" channels.)

If your modulators are very good and allow you to use truly adjacent channels 2-5, that would be better. (But i'm not familiar with any that good aside from professional grade.)

Remember, displexing will reduce the signal reaching the units.

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

Quick checking -- The BBCs go from 200-750mhz right? Could diplex 4 channels in on one of the 4 cables, say even channels 2,3,4,5. Wikipedia says that tops out at 82Mhz. Pull them out before they get to a WB68 in the unit, then let the resident decide what they want to do with them. I seem to recall reading about this somewhere on here, but I guess nobody will know _for sure_ until the birds are in the air.
-Jeff
Now it's getting strange...
Only one cable would have the Ka signals, so the other three should be able to have your CCTV diplexed on to them. SWM doesn't use the BBCs, but multi-switches do. Also the BBCs need to be near the receivers which will mean there is little to no chance of diplexing before them.
So...it still sounds like there is life with the splitter setup & the CCTV, but getting more complex...:D

[Tom Robertson]

Now it's getting strange...
Only one cable would have the Ka signals, so the other three should be able to have your CCTV diplexed on to them. SWM doesn't use the BBCs, but multi-switches do. Also the BBCs need to be near the receivers which will mean there is little to no chance of diplexing before them.
So...it still sounds like there is life with the splitter setup & the CCTV, but getting more complex...:D

actually all 4 will carry Ka signals. But the Ka-lo starts at 250mhz, so he just might be able to stack some displexed channels as he hopes...

In the next unit--run 5 coax so you can cover OTA/security cameras as well as the satellite. :D

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

actually all 4 will carry Ka signals. But the Ka-lo starts at 250mhz, . :D

Cheers,
Tom
Please tell me more... the 101 LNB also is the Ka LNB so [as I've been wondering] how do all of the Ka channels come down the cables?

[jefe303]

Tom,

Good call on the 5 coax. I thought we were doing well with 4! :) Now that I look into it, the modulator (if it's the CELabs model I think it is) only covers the UHF band. A quick search for VHF band modulators turns up the el-cheapo channel 3&4.

We could just drop the cameras from the coax and use the Ethernet web client to view them from the DVR. Not as convienent, but whatever. Don't know if the whole diplexor hassle is worth it for just one channel of cameras.

[veryoldschool]

Oh, another curveball:

We've got 4 channels of CCTV cameras currently diplexed in. ;)
Currently in the high UHF range (i think upper-60's), but the units are channel selectable.
It looks like if these could be in the VHF band [about 50-225 MHz], you could keep under the Ka frequency usage and still have each camera use enough spacing to keep the cross-talk down.

[bobnielsen]

Please tell me more... the 101 LNB also is the Ka LNB so [as I've been wondering] how do all of the Ka channels come down the cables?

There are actually 3 LNBs under the same cover (the Ka LNBs are small). 99 uses the same logic as 101 and 103 uses the same logic as 110/119. Ka-low (250-750), Ku (950-1450) and Ka-high (1650-2150) will appear simultaneously on the same cable. Since the frequencies don't overlap, it works. There is some sort of signal sent from the receiver to the BBC telling it to either pass the signal (Ka-high or Ku) or upconvert (Ka-low).

[veryoldschool]

There are actually 3 LNBs under the same cover (the Ka LNBs are small). 99 uses the same logic as 101 and 103 uses the same logic as 110/119. Ka-low (250-750), Ku (950-1450) and Ka-high (1650-2150) will appear simultaneously on the same cable. Since the frequencies don't overlap, it works. There is some sort of signal sent from the receiver to the BBC telling it to either pass the signal (Ka-high or Ku) or upconvert (Ka-low).
Thanks, I should have known [and looked at my notes].

Polarity ..............RHCP ......LHCP ..........RHCP ...........LHCP
Output ...............13 V DC ....18 V DC .......13 V 22 kHz ...18 V 22 kHz
Ka-Lo 250 to
750 MHz ...........99º Odd ....99º Even .....103º Odd ........103º Even

Ku 950 to 1450
MHz ..................101º Odd ...101º Even ..119º Odd .........110º/119ºEven

Ka-Hi 1650 to
2150 MHz .........99º Odd .....99º Even ....103º Odd ........103º Even

[Tom Robertson]

VOS, I see you've answered your own question. :)

The other possibility would be if the modulator does cable channels 95-99. But again, they'd have to be tight with no spill into adjacent to fit all four in.

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

VOS, I see you've answered your own question. :)

The other possibility would be if the modulator does cable channels 95-99. But again, they'd have to be tight with no spill into adjacent to fit all four in.

Cheers,
Tom
VHF [hi/lo] band looks to fit also, if the modulator can output all of the channels. They could be "every other" and the spacing should work fine.

[Tom Robertson]

Yes, VHF lo and some of hi? would fit. I only mentioned cable 95-99 since OP said his modulator couldn't do VHF, alas.

Cheers,
Tom

[Ext 721]

At least we have 4 RG6's into every unit!


rg11's better, and more likely to carry the higher frequencies further.

[Tom Robertson]

rg11's better, and more likely to carry the higher frequencies further.

Very true and useful for the next one.

Cheers,
Tom

[carl6]

Most of the consumer grade UHF modulators don't do 95-99 because those really are lower frequency cable channels.

I asked a fairly high level source within DirecTV about SWM for MDU, and the response was along the lines of they will have something very nice but it isn't here yet. This implies at least that there may well be a future SWM type of solution but I'm not sure if you will have the luxury of waiting for it.

I'm not aware of anyone testing the SWM yet who has hooked it up to the outputs of an 8 or 16 port multiswitch and proven that will work. I tried with my first SWM, but the SWM itself was defective. So far, I have not yet tried doing it with the working replacement I got, but plan to do so. I can't think of any reason it shouldn't work, but nobody has done it yet that I am aware of.

My suggestion for the near term would be to parallel WB616's to give you enough ports, with the right mix of amplifiers as needed, and give each unit the full four signal mixes on the four RG6 you already have run (great prior planning there). Then whenever DirecTV's more elegant MDU variation of SWM becomes available, you can explore whether it is worth upgrading. At that point, you may be able to mix your UHF channels back in.

Carl

[WolfsPride]

Having Lived in Europe, ( Germany) for 20 years, I take it you have Ceramic Tiles/shingles on the roof? I had the same and it can be mounted on the roof. If your setup is the same as mine was, the shingles should slide upwards and are only attached to 2x2s. The way it's done over there is a small cut is made at the bottom of a shingle roughly 3x3 with a grinder and the mount is attached to a support beam on the side. Shingle is slipped back into place and a piece of soft lead that bends easily is placed at the bottom of the Shaft. It's not an eye sore and never rusts. Water also has no chance of getting through

[jefe303]

Good replies.

Discussed these plans with others at my company, original SAT installers, and the current HOA management today. Pricing for the splitting method is cheaper by about $1200. We also weighed the pros/cons of each setup.

Running triple WB616's is ~1500 for the switches alone.
Buying everyone a WB68 for their unit (retail) is ~600 all in for switches. Signal locker 50, and splitters ~100.

Common costs between the two schemes:
* AU9 dish @ 100
* 4x amps @ ~25
* spider lift day rental 150-300 (depending on availability and type required)
* dish removal (me with a crowbar ;-) )
* framing modifications ~50
* painting (negligible)
* new dish installation ~50 labor
* additional labor for 1) planning 2) coordination 3) implementation. ~$400

Switch method additional labor:
* additional labor to catalogue who has what hardware, and make changes as necessary within units (variable, could leave it up to residents but they are accustomed to being catered to)
* selectively change out old switches so installed MPEG4 boxes can see the new signal (DTV most likely installed old-style 2x* switches if at all) (unknown cost, availability and planning issues)

additional requirements for splitter method:
* _MUST_ enter every unit and restructure cabling in closet.
* _MUST_ tone out and label individual coax cables for proper placement on splitter matrix. (made slightly easier due to use of dual rg6, tone out one and the other is obvious)
* Documentation required for inside of cabinet. I have full page polyester laser labels i could just stick to the inside of the door.

Pros/Cons of Switch method
+ Slightly less work
- More expensive upfront hardware costs
- Less flexible
- Less future-proof
- Increased building hardware support liability (switch dies, there goes 1/3 of the building).
- Can't have 3 HR20s = angry residents

Pros/Cons of Splitter Mania
+ Less expensive
+ More flexible
+ More future proof
- Potential odd signal loss issues, intermittent loss possibilities, possible egg-cooker HR20s
- DTV techs might not support it if they see the labels on the cabinets = angry residents

There are others, but it's late :)


Notes from HOA / management company:
They are willing to split costs due to this being an upgrade in addition to a fix.
They like the splitter route - less headaches in the long run.
They want it done _immediately_. Can't wait for Mega-SWM setup this go-around. Goal is 3-week completion date. Phased install, day 1 upgrade dish, install attic amps. Build switch array. Leave old switch setup in place. Phase 2: Get new switches installed in units and connect cables. Phase 3: Troubleshooting! Of course there will be that odd cable mismatch that throws a difficult-to-find wrench in that sub-grid's setup.

BGI (canadian company) makes 2.3 and 3ghz power pass splitters in 2- and 6-way designs. I like these better than the 8way splitters before, less db loss. Seem to have good specs. www.bgitech.ca

Long post, sorry :) Any thoughts?

Thanks!
-Jeff

WolfsPride: Checked on feasability of tile roof install. Cold reception, off limits. We actually used a product called Monier LifeTile. They interlock with eachother to form a tight grid, as opposed to the more traditional ceramic types that easily slide. These are concrete-based. They supposedly withstand hurricane-force winds. Thanks for the idea though.

[veryoldschool]

If you do go with the splitter plan, all of the legs [or branches] need to be balanced.
I have no data [actual power levels] for your "plan" so this is just "blue sky" thinking.
What I was thinking would be [starting from the dish]:
the "locker",
[4] 2-way splitters,
[8] amps,
[8] 2-way splitters,
[16] 3-way splitters.
This would give the 48 outputs [4 for each of] the twelve units.
I'm sure [or would hope at least] your AV company would know if this is "over kill" [with the 8 amps verses moving them up one level and using half as many].
As you can see the output of the amps in this setup is split down to 16 %. If you use half as many amps, then it would be 8%.
If this layout [16%] is below the needed power to each unit, then using 16 amps would get the power up to 33%.

Again "I don't know" what your levels will be as I'm "not there", but hope this will show you [or them] what should be looked at, if you go with "the splitter plan".
Do post what happens please.
Geoff

[doctor j]

you must be quoting Spaun prices for the MultiSwitches which might be appropriate for the commercial nature of the project BUT Zinwell WB616's retail for $189.00 or less and should be more than adequate for the project. That makes it LESS than 12 WB68's and less trouble in labeling exact order of the wires.

Since I have a bias for the NAS MDU MFH-1 system I can't help but emphasize the benefits long term this can have to your system. MFH-2 KA upgrade not yet available so can't get full system NOW but reported soon. Price short term is increased but expandability and completeness (adding in OTA/CCTV) will be easier long term and upgradeability can be added on not "throw out and replace" like you are doing now. Just another opinion.

Doctor j

[veryoldschool]

^ Part of the "brain trust" here...:D

[doctor j]

Zinwell WB616 on newegg for $129.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145075

WOW!!

Doctor j

[Tom Robertson]

Even better yet: wb616s at newegg are only $129. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145075

Conceptually I like Doctor J's suggestion of MDU--if it is compatible with the HR20, H20, and D12 SWM/FTM ports so a destacker isn't needed at the units. But cost and timeline might not allow.

Cheers,
Tom

Btw, any unit that wants more than 4 tuners under the switched plan can still install their own switch(es) internally for as many HR20s, H20s, etc. as they want. DIRECTV will give those free in that cirumstance. So you won't have to pay for them.

[veryoldschool]

Zinwell WB616 on newegg for $129.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145075

WOW!!

Doctor j
Each unit [of the 12] would have 4 cables with 2% power [before amps added].
Thinking it would take [4] 3-ways splitters to feed [3] WB616.
I don't know which is better, just "thinking". :)

[Tom Robertson]

Each unit [of the 12] would have 4 cables with 2% power [before amps added].
Thinking it would take [4] 3-ways splitters to feed [3] WB616.
I don't know which is better, just "thinking". :)

Do you have spec's on the WB616s? I haven't found them yet and would love to have.

Thanks,
Tom

[doctor j]

See zinwell's official site with WB616 installation guide.

http://www.zcwc.com/zcwc/tech_support/usermenual/multi_switch/usermanuals/wb_616/WB616manual.pdf

Page 4 has 1 wb616 cascaded to 4 more for 64 outputs w/o amplifier since the multiswitch is powered and thus presumably amplified already.

A set up like that cascading 3 wb616's from one (4x$129.99) will still be cheaper and might (probably) work w/o line amplifier. I have had 2 WB68 work thru 2 way splitters non powered and not amplified with 95-100 signal levels at the downsteam receivers. ie 6% effective power.

As Tom notes : in unit wb68's can the be added for flexibility, ie more than 4 outputs in that condo.

I still see a problem "down the road " if the cctv signal or OTA /cable/internet needed. After D10 sat is functional the 250-750 MHz band will be utilized for the KA low signals and no easy diplexing. A fifth coax as suggested earlier for this would be required or the MFH-2 super stacker/FTM system should be available by then.

Doctor j

[veryoldschool]

Do you have spec's on the WB616s? I haven't found them yet and would love to have.

Thanks,
Tom
So far:http://www.zcwc.com/zcwc/tech_support/usermenual/multi_switch/usermanuals/wb_616/WB616manual.pdf
And: http://www.zcwc.com/zcwc/tech_support/index_faq.shtml#WB_616

[Tom Robertson]

Saw those, but no values for loss (or gain) that I could find. You've made statements about loss with the WB616s, so I thought you had found specs somewhere.

[veryoldschool]

Page 4 has 1 wb616 cascaded to 4 more for 64 outputs w/o amplifier since the multiswitch is powered and thus presumably amplified already.
Doctor j
From reading somewhere, The WB616 isn't amplified, but can replace a "locker".

[veryoldschool]

Saw those, but no values for loss (or gain) that I could find. You've made statements about loss with the WB616s, so I thought you had found specs somewhere.
Without "amps", when everyone tunes into the "superbowl" the signal whether switched or split will be divided. This is the worst case [and when all of the units will complain].
I can't find insertion loss specs, so right now I'm "just" working with "0" and following the power distribution loss.

[veryoldschool]

Why I like a locker & splitters: less to go wrong over the long term. Splitters are passive, & don't need to "change state" where switches do. IMO

[doctor j]

I do not have specs and can not comment on load ie IF all users on on same sat at one time would that be a problem. I can say that with a locker the signal is being divided fully all of the time and i did not see any signal loss on a WB68.

Informal signal strength comparison of one line direct to receiver vs thru 2 way high freq. splitter and 2 wb 68's had no measurable signal strength degradation and in fact got the trend that some transponders may be 1 or 2 points higher.

Signal strength on a birdog meter was more affected by the distance of the coax ie: measured at sat or thru run to receiver (quad shield RG-6 Belden 7916a)(6dB /100 ft loss at 1000 MHz) than thru splitter and wb68. From this i would infer that signal "loss" was virtually zero and thus my comment that the wb68 although non powered, at least externally, is not passive , and functionally is amplified to a degree of no net loss.

Doctor j

[veryoldschool]

Without knowing the "insides" it's hard to say more than: there is no "free lunch" in signal distribution.
If X watts is sent to Y locations, then the maximum at each location is X/Y minus the transmission loss to get there.
"Full splitters" or switches [with each location using the signal] doesn't change this.
Switches do have the advantage: if all locations are not tuned to the same frequency then the signal isn't divided as many times.
The actual insertion loss of each component must be added to the loss of distribution [i.e. matching circuits in each].
A "selective" power meter [filtered to measure one signal] or spectrum analyzer, and terminations on all ports will show what the loss is.
I can say "been there" for many years. FWIW

[kenglish]

With all those cables to each unit, why not distribute OTA (in it's glorius entirety: VHF+UHF) and the closed-circuit TV channels, separately?

That would make OTA distribution easier, since it can be fanned-out wherever needed (not home-run), and you would get all the locals, not just the 3 or 4 that D* provides.

[RobertE]

Would love to see pictures off all this as it is and as it progresses.

[veryoldschool]

Would love to see pictures off all this as it is and as it progresses.
Documentation is extra...:lol:

[Tom Robertson]

With all those cables to each unit, why not distribute OTA (in it's glorius entirety: VHF+UHF) and the closed-circuit TV channels, separately?

That would make OTA distribution easier, since it can be fanned-out wherever needed (not home-run), and you would get all the locals, not just the 3 or 4 that D* provides.

Until SWM or MDU-ka is ready, one needs all 4 lines just for the satellite signals to each unit with no bandwidth left for OTA above ~225mhz.

Cheers,
Tom

[kenglish]

So, who's going to tell those folks that they aren't getting all the channels they paid for? ;)

[veryoldschool]

So, who's going to tell those folks that they aren't getting all the channels they paid for? ;)
I have absolutely no idea what you mean. "The plan" is to carry Ka-Lo & Ka-Hi channels.

[jefe303]

So, who's going to tell those folks that they aren't getting all the channels they paid for? ;)

They aren't NOW! :o

I was there yesterday, but didn't have my camera handy. It did occur to me to snap some pics.

Tentative budget approved for the project. Talked with new AV company today about strategies. I know more than they do it seems! They asked, "what if someone wants dish?". I replied, "They can't, I have enough problems!".