HD and the Trees

[katzeye]

Inspired by some of the previous posts, but not wanting to tread on their toes I also have a question about how the trees effect the HD Signal.
My Father, who currently has both a 1 LNB dish and Directway contacted D* trying to upgrade to the HD service. An installer came out to the house and said that it couldn't be done. That the trees in the forest off the backyard would interfere with the signal.
Now it is true that there is substantial tree cover sorunding the property, but it is not what I would call insurmountable. As well as the fact that he currently runs two other satellite systems, seems to say that something else is going on (lazy installer?).
I admit to complete ignorance to the working of the satellite systems, the talk about angle of degrees left me in the dark. But the systems have always been very rugged in my experience, I once had a house where my dish was pointed at a tree covered hillside and I still got a 90% signal.
So is the HD service that sensitive? And if so is there anything that can be done to overcome the problem besides complete deforestation? Is Dish Network any better or different? It is really his only option because he lives in a rural area with no cable service, and his 50" HDTV looks soooo sad with all that Standard Def content on it.

[veryoldschool]

Inspired by some of the previous posts, but not wanting to tread on their toes I also have a question about how the trees effect the HD Signal.
My Father, who currently has both a 1 LNB dish and Directway contacted D* trying to upgrade to the HD service. An installer came out to the house and said that it couldn't be done. That the trees in the forest off the backyard would interfere with the signal.
Now it is true that there is substantial tree cover sorunding the property, but it is not what I would call insurmountable. As well as the fact that he currently runs two other satellite systems, seems to say that something else is going on (lazy installer?).
I admit to complete ignorance to the working of the satellite systems, the talk about angle of degrees left me in the dark. But the systems have always been very rugged in my experience, I once had a house where my dish was pointed at a tree covered hillside and I still got a 90% signal.
So is the HD service that sensitive? And if so is there anything that can be done to overcome the problem besides complete deforestation? Is Dish Network any better or different? It is really his only option because he lives in a rural area with no cable service, and his 50" HDTV looks soooo sad with all that Standard Def content on it.
:welcome_s To the forum(s).
As someone with trees all around, I have had to become quite knowledgeable of trees & SAT lines of sight.
Most installer will pass on it and move to their next "easy" job.
The water in the trees [leaves] will kill the SAT signals.
Dish or DTV, it doesn't matter [I've had both].
While what you posted so far sound like two dishes that point [maybe] between the trees. I have to work very hard [on my fifth location] to get a line of sight to all five SATs for the new DTV [or D*] setup.
I actually go between trees as I couldn't find anyplace to go over the top of them.
On very difficult locations, multiple dishes are used to get the needed sight line through the same "gap" in the trees.
So if you can't get the spread from the dish to all of the SATs, then you spread the dish(s) to get the line of sight.
But, no it won't go "through" trees.

[Radio Enginerd]

Inspired by some of the previous posts, but not wanting to tread on their toes I also have a question about how the trees effect the HD Signal.
My Father, who currently has both a 1 LNB dish and Directway contacted D* trying to upgrade to the HD service. An installer came out to the house and said that it couldn't be done. That the trees in the forest off the backyard would interfere with the signal.
Now it is true that there is substantial tree cover sorunding the property, but it is not what I would call insurmountable. As well as the fact that he currently runs two other satellite systems, seems to say that something else is going on (lazy installer?).
I admit to complete ignorance to the working of the satellite systems, the talk about angle of degrees left me in the dark. But the systems have always been very rugged in my experience, I once had a house where my dish was pointed at a tree covered hillside and I still got a 90% signal.
So is the HD service that sensitive? And if so is there anything that can be done to overcome the problem besides complete deforestation? Is Dish Network any better or different? It is really his only option because he lives in a rural area with no cable service, and his 50" HDTV looks soooo sad with all that Standard Def content on it.

Welcome to DBS Talk!

Do you have any pictures of the property? I'm curious to see how bad the tree cover is.

EDIT: I encountered another thread that may be helpful to you. Check this out - CLICK HERE (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62223&highlight=two+dish+trees)

[katzeye]

:welcome_s To the forum(s).
As someone with trees all around, I have had to become quite knowledgeable of trees & SAT lines of sight.
Most installer will pass on it and move to their next "easy" job.
The water in the trees [leaves] will kill the SAT signals.
Dish or DTV, it doesn't matter [I've had both].
While what you posted so far sound like two dishes that point [maybe] between the trees. I have to work very hard [on my fifth location] to get a line of sight to all five SATs for the new DTV [or D*] setup.
I actually go between trees as I couldn't find anyplace to go over the top of them.
On very difficult locations, multiple dishes are used to get the needed sight line through the same "gap" in the trees.
So if you can't get the spread from the dish to all of the SATs, then you spread the dish(s) to get the line of sight.
But, no it won't go "through" trees.

Thanks for the welcome,
Ok so unfortunately this gives me a lot more questions.
I never considered that it was tree/leaf specific. His trees are all pine, so leaves are not a problem but water on pine needles may be even worse. but the needles themselves should not cause interference (am I correct in this?).
I would have to assume that because the other systems are working that there is a gap some where in there. So as are as insallation what is the best option.
Should we call and request another installer? Should we go through D* or a private installer.
Should we do it ourselves (I've installed several 1 LNB dishes myself but never a 5LNB).
How would multiple dishes work?
Oh I have too many questions.
thanks for the help.

[katzeye]

Do you have any pictures of the property? I'm curious to see how bad the tree cover is.



I don't but check back tonight, and I will see If I can get my father to post a few after work.

[Radio Enginerd]

Do you have any pictures of the property? I'm curious to see how bad the tree cover is.



I don't but check back tonight, and I will see If I can get my father to post a few after work.

Excellent... We should be able to determine whether your father really has a problem or if you encountered a lazy installer (there are many unfortunately).

If your father could also give you some kind of a compass bearing (example: this picture is taken pointed south) that would be helpful. There are MANY creative nerds and geeks on this board that will do almost anything for SAT TV so rest assured you'll get many suggestions. :)

[veryoldschool]

There are MANY creative nerds and geeks on this board.
I resemble that.

And to katzeye, my trees are mostly pine too, so it really doesn't matter broad leaf or not.

[bobnielsen]

Be aware that the dish is actually pointing about 20 degrees above where it appears to be looking.

[katzeye]

No photos tonight, He is going to try and get them tomorrow.
Thanks to all for the input so far.

[CobraGuy]

Be aware that the dish is actually pointing about 20 degrees above where it appears to be looking.

Are you sure about that? I just tried to move my dish between mine and my neighbors houses. I would have sworn it was aimed just above his roof line. I even set a laser at 47 degrees (my elevation) and the laser didn't hit the roof. But I couldn't get a signal. Once I moved it so the neighbors roof was out of the picture, I received a great signal.

[veryoldschool]

Are you sure about that? I just tried to move my dish between mine and my neighbors houses. I would have sworn it was aimed just above his roof line. I even set a laser at 47 degrees (my elevation) and the laser didn't hit the roof. But I couldn't get a signal. Once I moved it so the neighbors roof was out of the picture, I received a great signal.
What "I think" was meant was the LNB is below the center of the dish, so after the "bounce" off of the dish, it's looking about 20 degrees above where the dish "looks" to be pointing.

[katzeye]

I'm just posting this first because it won't let me post URL without 5 posts, see the next post for actual content.

[katzeye]

Hi all,
Sorry for the delay, but my Father has been busy, so it was hard to get the images. So I hope this gives a good idea of what he is facing. It seems to be it may be too much coverage, but the other two dishes make it, and I guess If you consider the actual angle of the dishes (As addressed above) than it may be clear enough,
If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Thanks Again,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49538724@N00/496989778/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49538724@N00/496989772/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49538724@N00/496989782/in/photostream/

[katzeye]

Argh, well it didn't post the images
But I have the pictures posted @ Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49538724@N00/

[prushing]

use this link and do what it says in the post, if you can see the moon at the times, then you can see the satellite

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=63277

[dave1234]

Argh, well it didn't post the images
But I have the pictures posted @ Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49538724@N00/

I'll ask for some clarification. The title says HD and the Trees. Do you(or did the installer) mean HD from the Sat. or HD from OTA(local broadcast stations)? If it's HD from Sat. it seems you should be able to get a good look at most satellites. If it's HD directly (OTA) from local broadcast stations the trees could definately be a problem.

[igator99]

Argh, well it didn't post the images
But I have the pictures posted @ Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49538724@N00/

It looks like you got a shot with that little clearing. No regular D* installer is going to touch it. A local independent pro will get it done if possible but it will cost you. Do you own those trees? I bet it wouldn't cost to much to cut them down or you could do it yourself since it doesn't look like there is another house around and they are far from your house.

[veryoldschool]

Hi all,
Sorry for the delay, but my Father has been busy, so it was hard to get the images. So I hope this gives a good idea of what he is facing. It seems to be it may be too much coverage, but the other two dishes make it, and I guess If you consider the actual angle of the dishes (As addressed above) than it may be clear enough,
If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Thanks Again,
It looks like it could be tough for all of the SATs.
Where does that dish point now?
It's elevation looks to be kind of high which will help. If you can take a shot of the tree line while standing behind the dish, it might give us some more perspective. :)

[katzeye]

I'll ask for some clarification. The title says HD and the Trees. Do you(or did the installer) mean HD from the Sat. or HD from OTA(local broadcast stations)? If it's HD from Sat. it seems you should be able to get a good look at most satellites. If it's HD directly (OTA) from local broadcast stations the trees could definately be a problem.

OTA is fine, it is that sat that we were told would be a problem. Luckily the antenna was already installed, so OTA is the only HD he gets right now.

[katzeye]

It looks like you got a shot with that little clearing. No regular D* installer is going to touch it. A local independent pro will get it done if possible but it will cost you. Do you own those trees? I bet it wouldn't cost to much to cut them down or you could do it yourself since it doesn't look like there is another house around and they are far from your house.

The trees are ours but the cost is prohibitive. I don't think my father is going to cut them down himself (they are quite large) and I don't think he has enough lumberjacking experience to do it safely.

[katzeye]

It looks like it could be tough for all of the SATs.
Where does that dish point now?
It's elevation looks to be kind of high which will help. If you can take a shot of the tree line while standing behind the dish, it might give us some more perspective. :)

I will have to ask him to take the exact directional measurements. I know they are generally south but the Directwav and the D* have slightly different orientations.
I tried to get him to take pictures from the dishes, but he didn't want to get on the roof, and I didn't push him because I really don't want my inheritance;) .

[veryoldschool]

I will have to ask him to take the exact directional measurements. I know they are generally south but the Directwav and the D* have slightly different orientations.
I tried to get him to take pictures from the dishes, but he didn't want to get on the roof, and I didn't push him because I really don't want my inheritance;) .
I'm guessing you are wanting to wait for a long time before you get your inheritance.
Maybe a photo can be shot from the ground if you're back far enough. From the last photo, if you're at the end of the house & pointed up at the dish [if you were far enough back] you might get the trees too in the same shot.

You can do some home work if you go here for the longitude & latitude of your dad's location: http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/?KeohiHDTV

Then if you plug them into this site: http://perso.numericable.fr/~gjullien/satellite.htm

You can get some idea of where the SATs are at what time of day [using where the sun is] and this can all be done from the ground [lining up from behind the dish].

You've got a tough spot, but with some work you should be able to see if it will work.

I have an 1/2 acre and there is only one place that does work for me. I had a senior tech out and he couldn't find anyplace, but since "I wanted it", I did.

Here is a link to another thread about doing this: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=63277

[igator99]

The trees are ours but the cost is prohibitive. I don't think my father is going to cut them down himself (they are quite large) and I don't think he has enough lumberjacking experience to do it safely.

Are you sure the costs are prohibitive? A local company chomped a tree down for me and hauled everything away for $500 and this was a tricky cut because it could have easily fallen on two different homes. Getting rid of those trees would be your best bet for now and well into the future.

[katzeye]

Thanks a lot. You all have been very helpful. ( I will see about a few more pics), but I will get him to do the calculations, and then he and I will sit down and talk about how he wants to proceed. Again thanks a million,

[CobraGuy]

I wouldn't cut those trees down for all the tea in China. They are what makes the place what it is...simply gorgeous.

You may have to look at installing your dishes in a location away from the house that will give you a line of sight...then run cable. Or some other innovative idea. But I'm betting you can find a spot! But I would leave the trees...

[igator99]

I wouldn't cut those trees down for all the tea in China. They are what makes the place what it is...simply gorgeous.

You may have to look at installing your dishes in a location away from the house that will give you a line of sight...then run cable. Or some other innovative idea. But I'm betting you can find a spot! But I would leave the trees...

I haven't been a fan of trees since Katrina. They clobbered a ton of homes in my area. Cutting trees would of course be the last resort but you do have to think long term. Best of luck.

[CobraGuy]

I haven't been a fan of trees since Katrina. They clobbered a ton of homes in my area. Cutting trees would of course be the last resort but you do have to think long term. Best of luck.

My thoughts and prayers are still with all you folks who endured that holocaust. We had many of you guys relocated here. What you went through...the devastation you received...the loss of life...

I guess I would feel the same as you. I love trees...but when they become weapons of destruction, I can see how my mind could be changed.

[stogie5150]

My thoughts and prayers are still with all you folks who endured that holocaust. We had many of you guys relocated here. What you went through...the devastation you received...the loss of life...

I guess I would feel the same as you. I love trees...but when they become weapons of destruction, I can see how my mind could be changed.

When I built my house 5 years ago, I cut every pine tree on my acre, and left the oak trees. What fell on my house during Katrina? A stinking oak tree. :lol:

[katzeye]

Been off this topic for a while, but I wanted to send a big thanks to everyone who offered their advise and experience. It seems that the original problem was that of a lazy installer.
I went down to my father's this weekend and I coordinated the HD upgrade while I was there (I got him the 19.95 deal too). As I have had one done for myself in the interim and plenty of reading on this board, I felt confident that I could talk a difficult installer into giving it the old college try.
After getting brushed off on Friday, I was not too optimistic, but they rescheduled for Saturday. Once the guy showed up, he hopped up onto the highest point of the house, said no problem, and he had the system up lickety split. My Father was so thrilled he gave the guy a HUGE tip.
So my father has been staring at HD since it went up. When I called him when we got home he said something I thought I would never hear from his mouth. "The NASCAR looked amazing!" Let's just say that NASCAR is not his cup of tea.
I even have him wandering the boards now, that I told him it was all of you that provided the knowledge for all of this.
So, again thanks!

[cnmsales]

Good deal bro, glad to hear everything went so well.

[katz.bill]

Inspired by some of the previous posts, but not wanting to tread on their toes I also have a question about how the trees effect the HD Signal.
My Father, who currently has both a 1 LNB dish and Directway contacted D* trying to upgrade to the HD service. An installer came out to the house and said that it couldn't be done. That the trees in the forest off the backyard would interfere with the signal.
Now it is true that there is substantial tree cover sorunding the property, but it is not what I would call insurmountable. As well as the fact that he currently runs two other satellite systems, seems to say that something else is going on (lazy installer?).
I admit to complete ignorance to the working of the satellite systems, the talk about angle of degrees left me in the dark. But the systems have always been very rugged in my experience, I once had a house where my dish was pointed at a tree covered hillside and I still got a 90% signal.
So is the HD service that sensitive? And if so is there anything that can be done to overcome the problem besides complete deforestation? Is Dish Network any better or different? It is really his only option because he lives in a rural area with no cable service, and his 50" HDTV looks soooo sad with all that Standard Def content on it.

My son, Katzeye posted to this forum and this weekend I had a successfull installation of a HD system. Worked immediately. I did have some rain last night and briefly lost my signal. Thanks all.

Bill Katz

[veryoldschool]

My son, Katzeye posted to this forum and this weekend I had a successfull installation of a HD system. Worked immediately. I did have some rain last night and briefly lost my signal. Thanks all.

Bill Katz
:welcome_s to the forum.
We've heard you gave the installer a good tip. I hope you gave your son at least a big thank you for the work he did. :)

[katzeye]

:welcome_s to the forum.
We've heard you gave the installer a good tip. I hope you gave your son at least a big thank you for the work he did. :)

Not to worry, I just got married and he helped out, so I was more then happy to do it. Although I would have done it anyway... He's my Pops! :)

[Radio Enginerd]

Thanks for the update and congratulations!

[richlife]

I stumbled on this thread late and have only a little to add except congratulations to you both and "way to persevere" ;) .

But maybe one contribution I actually can make. I live with a far worse tree situation than yours with surrounding hardwood trees towering 50 - 60 feet over my roof (this may contribute to the fact that even my OTA is blocked in my major market direction). Over a 12 year period (and for solar gain purposes rather than satellite), I had eliminated the 3 trees that were my biggest problem, but still, with HD my installer said I had two more in the way. But he suggested specifically eliminating 3 branches rather than cutting down the trees. I was able to get that done for $120 (including tip).

Your pics and the fact that you're now at the highest point on your roof seem to indicate you might have a problem in future years if the trees continue to grow. You may want to try topping or trimming if that happens -- or maybe a tall mast (VOS can offer more wisdom there).

And last words, it's the physical blocking of the satellite signal that makes trees the problem. In my case, I could get a signal in the winter, but not when the trees had leaves. But eliminating the tree actually caused my satellite strength to go up by 20 even in the winter (those small branches and twigs do have an effect -- and the solar gain improvement was incredible).

Many things are probably part of my individual OTA reception problem including the trees and the fact that I'm just below a ridge top only about 1000 feet away. The trees aren't the only answer with OTA because I have no similar problem in the opposite direction with just as many trees (I get OTA signals from the West but not from closer stations in the East that are just as strong).

[katzeye]

I stumbled on this thread late and have only a little to add except congratulations to you both and "way to persevere" ;) .

But maybe one contribution I actually can make. I live with a far worse tree situation than yours with surrounding hardwood trees towering 50 - 60 feet over my roof (this may contribute to the fact that even my OTA is blocked in my major market direction). Over a 12 year period (and for solar gain purposes rather than satellite), I had eliminated the 3 trees that were my biggest problem, but still, with HD my installer said I had two more in the way. But he suggested specifically eliminating 3 branches rather than cutting down the trees. I was able to get that done for $120 (including tip).

Your pics and the fact that you're now at the highest point on your roof seem to indicate you might have a problem in future years if the trees continue to grow. You may want to try topping or trimming if that happens -- or maybe a tall mast (VOS can offer more wisdom there).

And last words, it's the physical blocking of the satellite signal that makes trees the problem. In my case, I could get a signal in the winter, but not when the trees had leaves. But eliminating the tree actually caused my satellite strength to go up by 20 even in the winter (those small branches and twigs do have an effect -- and the solar gain improvement was incredible).

Many things are probably part of my individual OTA reception problem including the trees and the fact that I'm just below a ridge top only about 1000 feet away. The trees aren't the only answer with OTA because I have no similar problem in the opposite direction with just as many trees (I get OTA signals from the West but not from closer stations in the East that are just as strong).

Hey Rich,
Thanks for the words of wisdom, That said. I am going to let my father worry about the future of the trees ( I think I have done my part for now)
BTW, My father too is a Tarheel Alum ('70 and '74) and it it wasn't for North Carolina I wouldn't be here because that is where he met my Mum!