View Full Version : HD - Why it sucks to be a DTV user.
Wanna hear something crazy? Well I just recently switched from S-Video to the old RCA jacks. Why would I do this? Well, when your screen is about 27" and less, the DTV pixelation is bearable. PQ can be pretty darn good. When you go with a big screen, PQ looks just g*d awful. It's the truth... and we all know it. Through some futzing around it looks like if I use the inferior RCA connections the pixels get nicely muddled. It's like a poor man's anti-aliasing for TVs. Hey, it's better than paying $800 for a receiver that can up-convert the signal. Why do I even need to get to this point?
Well, because it seems DTV is not going to be able to improve PQ / change compression without changing hardware, they don't want to give up some of those PPV channels (2x as much as everyone else) to free up space for HD and well, honestly, their business plan has been and will be for the near future to worry about being bought by someone. Which will solve all their problems. I pay $10 more for their top package (compared to Dish's top) only to get less, and now to add insult to injury... my local cable company, the one i dumped just this past year is moving forward with HD. I'll switch to Dish before I switch back (they seem to have their act together, I should have gone with my original gut feeling)... but at this point DTV may be upsetting me more than the cable company did, so who knows. If I can only swallow my pride...
Add the off the topic fact that I pay $10 a month extra for UTV, instead of $5 (Tivo) or nothing at all (Dish), and I'm starting to believe I made a mistake...
What's the point of posting a gripe like this? Besides actually hoping there will be good news somewhere... it's to balance all the warm and fuzzy posts that convince folks like me to switch to the wrong company. The ones that convince DTV that's they're still doing a good job. I really believe some people are blinded by their past loyalty and how much better of a choice DTV used to be. Please, somebody, anybody... prove me wrong, I'd rather not swallow my pride and go back...
Karl Foster
10-19-02, 11:51 PM
Is Dish's PQ any better? I'd research carefully before switching to Dish. I have a family member with a 52" HDTV and Dish Network, and their picture is awful when watching SD.
As far as the $10 UTV fee, I agree. It is time to cut us a break like DTivo users get. Dish may not charge for their PVRs each month, but their initial fee for a 2-tuner PVR is outrageous IMHO.
KF - I just meant that at least Dish is bumping up the HD offerings... so even if the normal PQ might be bad, there's at least more of a choice.
DTV isn't giving us anything to brag about... I dunno, I getting bummed... if you can't convince me to stay, who can?
Karl Foster
10-20-02, 12:08 AM
I can't for sure! You need to go where you will receive the best value for your dollar spent.
To expect great PQ on non HD channels from the pizza delivery companies is like expecting MacDonalds to start selling real food - it ain't gonna happen. It's quantity over quality. If you real want quality PQ across the board - then BUD/4DTV is the only option - but that won't give you most of the sports channels
James_F
10-20-02, 08:25 AM
The picture quality on both systems is less than idea. They both seam to tackle the situation differently. IMO DirecTV has a sharper picture, but more pixelation. Dish has a "fuzzy" picture, but you don't notice pixelation. What does that mean? On some shows DirecTV looks better IMO and in other Dish does. I like a sharper picture better than how Dish does in more often than not.
Here is the big issue though. Never chose a provider by picture quality. Anyone who has used DBS for any length of time will tell you about the "ebb and flow" of picture quality. Some channels look great while other look horrible. Best go with channels you want and cost. You'll have problems with picture quality no matter where you go.
scooper
10-20-02, 08:49 AM
The very best thing you can do for your PQ is to get either Video Essentials or Avia DVD's and go through them - it gives you a standard reference point.
Even after going through these, yes, your PQ on DBS will probably have problems, especially on a large screen DTV capable TV. As stated above - "choose your poison" - which problems can you live with.
James_F
10-20-02, 08:51 AM
If I remember correctly in the "other" DBS forum, most of the beginning of 2002 was spend debating this issue. I'd just do a search over there, PQ topics always bring the best out of everyone. :rolleyes:
You may think . Oh dish is better the DTV but , think . Is dish really better then DVT ? Talk with someone who already has dish . How is dish compared to DTV ? HD today , in 1 year , it may be you , need somthing else .
Everyone I know who has Dish is happy with PQ, but none of them have anything larger than 27" screen. Can anybody speak to that?
Is DirecTV going to be doing something about this eventually? Hopefully before my contract expires so I don't get an itchy finger... (Either in PQ or in HD)
Will a receiver like the Sony SAT-HD200 help even with regular PQ? With the up-conversion, etc...
Looking for reasons to stay the course...
James_F
10-20-02, 04:06 PM
If you don't like DirecTV PQ, you won't like Dish PQ. If PQ bothers you, you might want to go back to cable. I don't think PQ will be getting better anytime soon especially on larger TVs. :shrug:
raj2001
10-20-02, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by RobR
KF - I just meant that at least Dish is bumping up the HD offerings... so even if the normal PQ might be bad, there's at least more of a choice.
DTV isn't giving us anything to brag about... I dunno, I getting bummed... if you can't convince me to stay, who can?
I always thought that both providers pretty much had all the HD that is out there. DirecTV also has HDNET which Dish doesn't have. Don't you also get HD OTA? Where do you live?
I don't think Dish has that much, if any edge at all in HD programming. Be patient. HDTV is still in its infancy, and both DirecTV and Echostar have a long way to go before the HDTV market pans out.
raj2001
10-20-02, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by RobR
Everyone I know who has Dish is happy with PQ, but none of them have anything larger than 27" screen. Can anybody speak to that?
Is DirecTV going to be doing something about this eventually? Hopefully before my contract expires so I don't get an itchy finger... (Either in PQ or in HD)
Will a receiver like the Sony SAT-HD200 help even with regular PQ? With the up-conversion, etc...
Looking for reasons to stay the course...
By the way, I think you really need to get a BUD. Trust me, it doesn't look like any DBS provider is going to be able to satisfy your needs.
If regular PQ isn't going to get better then let's change gears here...
Are more HD channels coming? DTV doesn't have all the amount HD channels everyone else has (most annoyingly the Discovery Channel), according to the list here on DBSTalk... my local cable is starting with seven of them.
What is everyone else doing to improve their image on the larger screens? Do the up-converters work? (By the way, "Scooper" I'll be borrowing one of those discs from a friend... Thanks.)
I guess I always saw DTV & Dish something the video enthusiasts always got, but I guess you guys are right and that they are more on the value side... I just want them to keep kicking cable's arse. I'm glad they didn't let the companies merge, maybe they need the competition to stay on top of these things. I heard that some foreign company might be entering the American market, any hopes there?
James_F
10-20-02, 06:56 PM
I'd rather have HDNet than Discovery any day. That said, I would assume DirecTV will have Discovery soon IMO and Dish is working on getting HDNet as I've read on this board. Cox here in phoenix is offering more HD Channels than DirecTV or Dish, but the only reason I haven't left is that there is no HD PVR. As soon as Cable, DirecTV, Dish offer a HD PVR then I'll go there. The thing with DBS is that the quality is mostly the same no matter where you are. With cable, quality depends on your provider and location. Cox here in Phoenix looks great to me, but some people complain about it. My parents have AT&T and hate it, so you see its so subjective. I'd just stay put. HD will be sorted out in the next couple of years. I'd hate to purchase a receiver for Dish and then see them fail or buy a PVR for DirecTV and see them go under. Bandwith is a killer for DBS (which is why some people wanted the merger) and without bandwith, no HD locals other than maybe top 5 markets would be offered IMO. Its going to be tough for DBS to add more HD channels to compete with Cable (where cable has its act together). What DBS offers is HD and PVR no matter where you live. That is why DBS is sometimes better.
My advice, sit tight and then let content or hardware make the move for you. I get HD locals OTH, but I'd love to get them through DBS or Cable. Cable has them, but no HD PVR. So I'm going to wait and see if DirecTV will offer HD locals or a HD PVR. But unless I can record OTH on that HD PVR then I'm back in the same boat I'm in now. Cable is looking much better every day on the HD front IMO and thats too bad.
I have Dish and a Hitachi 61". I don't know if its any better PQ than DTV, I definitely notice that the PPV channels and at times the movie channels are much crisper than my locals and some of the other channels. I guess it just depends how much compression is on a channel at a given time.
It'd be interesting to have someone compare the amount of compression between the two companies. They both compress...who does it more is anyone's guess.
On a side note. A friend just went to Chicuit City and was told of a new HD package that DTV is offering. Anyone know about it? He will allegedly get a couple movie channels (HBO/SHO) AND he'll get the national affiliaties in HD!!! That would be huge if they can just send out the national feed in HD and still give me the local networks on a standard feed for local weather and news.
Anyone heard about that?
Will Dish be able to follow?
-todd
scooper
10-24-02, 02:31 PM
Sales drones will say ANYTHING to make a sale, won't they ?
Todd - your 61" w/ Dish is acceptable? Did you get professional tuning?
I haven't heard of any new HD DTV channels coming... hope so. It's gotten to the point were I may get a special HD antenna ($400 - ouch) and get a professional tuner for the TV. I'll just have to drop the locals...
Side Note - My local cable company (I refuse to give them any press by naming them - good or bad.) has delayed their HD roll-out in my area, and now the offerings are down to three from seven channels initially. My faith in DBS and disgust for cable has been restored. All is well.
HDTV_rules
10-27-02, 08:03 PM
RobR,
Do not buy the $400 Terk so-called HDTV antenna. Go to antennaweb.org to find out what kind of antenna you should get. Then go to your nearest Channel Master antenna distributor to get the gear you need. A regular VHF/UHF antenna will get local digital OTA stations. Don't fall for marketing hype.
It's amazing that inexpensive 1950's technology plays a part in today's cutting edge technology...
Rob,
Oh no...I didn't say the image was "acceptable." :) I just don't know if it is better or worse than DTV. I definitley notice the compression.
Wow...what is the recommended HDTV antenna? Does it have to cost $400. Guess I'll go over to the HDTV discussion group for this one....
-todd
Martyva
10-28-02, 01:00 PM
You might try turning down your sharpness control, it sounds as if the problem isn't in cabling.
Mike123abc
10-28-02, 01:55 PM
Want to improve DBS PQ? Well simply get an RF modulator and about 1000' of cable, and throw in a couple cheap amps. Then you will have a nice picture with no pixel problems (you will not be able to see them through the snow).... Er wait, now you have cable!
I agree with Martyva, turn down the sharpness some. No use enhancing the pixel blocks. Also turn off any edge enhancements your TV may have, or it will enhance the edges of the pixel blocks. The best picture from DBS is from having all the picture enhancements turned off on a TV. Essentially TVs have geared to clear up problems found in cable (i.e. fuzzy snow), and by using these processes on DBS makes the DBS shortcomings worse. Maybe someday there will be TVs with enhancements geared towards digital shortcomings.
scooper
10-28-02, 02:11 PM
That was my whole point on getting the Avia / Video Essentials DVD's - they have tests to adjust your color, and the SHARPNESS (usually needs turned down quite a bit), and the brightness / contrast levels. After you've gone through these, you'll have the best picture your set is capable of (short of having an ISF pro come in). Give yourself a few weeks to get used to this picture.
BTW - these DVD's are using the user video controls - nothing dangerous / special is being done.
daviddavid
10-28-02, 06:36 PM
progressive scan is what is causing the pixelation. A receiver with progressive scan, and a tv with progressive scan, makes it look horrible. It's kinda like they are overriding each other.
David
reubenray
11-01-02, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by xxxx
To expect great PQ on non HD channels from the pizza delivery companies is like expecting MacDonalds to start selling real food - it ain't gonna happen. It's quantity over quality. If you real want quality PQ across the board - then BUD/4DTV is the only option - but that won't give you most of the sports channels
I agree the picture quality is better with a BUD. I had one for over
20 years. The problem is that most people can not get a BUD.
I work in construction and travel all across the country. I finally
sold my house and my BUD, because I was never there. The
DBS is the next best thing. I have tried cable several times and
went to the Directv.
So just to tell everyone to get a BUD is not that simple to do.
In fact the family I sold my house to and the BUD (with the 4dtv)
immediately put up a Directv system. They did not have any idea
what they had in their back yard.
Just an update...
I got to try the Avia DVD and I have to say the image does look a little better. So I would recommend it, especially if you can borrow a copy from a friend who has already spent the cash for it. (Thanks G!) I'm probably going to get a professional tuner eventually. I hear that's the best way to go, even if its a tube.
Gonna get the oval DirecTV HD dish, though I really don't know why... I guess out of hope and a few more channels. :shrug:
Otherwise there isn't much of a choice but to get an HD antenna... I guess I'll save a few bucks by dumping the locals.
Well, I'll keep checking in here from time to time and I'll keep you guys updated and post anything that I would recommend. (Maybe I'll get myself an early Christmas present.) :D
:hi:
When you go to buy your "HD" antenna, make sure you get one that can handle color signals too. Also, unless your new antenna can receive the old black & white signals, you won't be able to watch Andy Griffith or Lucy reruns on TVLand.
Seriously, back in the '60s, TV antenna marketers were hyping "color" antennas, strongly implying they were essential to receive the new polychromatic signals - or so I hear.
The most important 'elements' of selecting and installing an OTA antenna are:
- suitability of purpose
- relative gain
- directional characteristics (pattern)
- location, mount and aiming
- integrity of physical connections
- shielding of signal
- electrical grounding
Hmmm, sounds familiar. :eek:
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