SD service after HD implementation

[spamstew]

Does anyone know D*'s plan for SD after the HD switch in 2009?

[wmschultz]

It is not a SD to HD switch, it is a analog to digital switch and since DirecTV broadcast a digital signal, they are done.

Once the local channels go dark on the analog, they will just reclaim that unused sat space for something else I would imagine.

[Earl Bonovich]

There is no "HD" Switch in 2009.

The change in 2009, has to do with the transmission method. Not the content.

So nothing will "change" with regards to SD in 2009.

[spamstew]

coolio... thanks for the clarification.

[Terry K]

What I think he's asking is what DirecTV plans to do with local channels. For example, when the SD version of KABC goes away, for example, will D* just downconvert the HD version or hope everyone has an HD box?

[bobnielsen]

What I think he's asking is what DirecTV plans to do with local channels. For example, when the SD version of KABC goes away, for example, will D* just downconvert the HD version or hope everyone has an HD box?

I imagine that depends on what feeds KABC (and other locals) has available at that point. If it is HD-only, we'll probably see a lot of letterboxed 480i SD channels.

[Earl Bonovich]

What I think he's asking is what DirecTV plans to do with local channels. For example, when the SD version of KABC goes away, for example, will D* just downconvert the HD version or hope everyone has an HD box?

Still wouldn't change much.
As the "SD" version of the channle probably isn't going away in a lot of cases.

DirecTV doesn't receive the SD versions of the channels via OTA in almost all DMAs. They get them via other methods of transmission (fiber in most cases).

So it is not subject to the same FCC changes in 2009.

As for when a affiliate drops their SD version of the channel (if they do), then probably in all cases, it will be a down convert of the HD they will distribute. (there are some networks that are already doing that... IIRC WLS-ABC here in Chicago, they went all HD, and downcovert that to SD for their external carriers).

[veryoldschool]

What I think he's asking is what DirecTV plans to do with local channels. For example, when the SD version of KABC goes away, for example, will D* just downconvert the HD version or hope everyone has an HD box?
I think this is the same thing, as most locals still broadcast SD over digital [sub channels].
The FCC deadline is to change analog over to digital, but not moving to HD.
While most stations are moving to HD, not all are, and of those that do, they can still broadcast SD also.

[wilbur_the_goose]

The change in '09 is what you pick up with an antenna. Only digital OTA will be sent at that time.

Unless, of course, the NAB convinces the FCC to scrap that part of the regs, as was done in the past.

[veryoldschool]

Still wouldn't change much.
As the "SD" version of the channel probably isn't going away in a lot of cases.

DirecTV doesn't receive the SD versions of the channels via OTA in almost all DMAs. They get them via other methods of transmission (fiber in most cases).
Oh you guys in those big markets...I think you'll find more OTA in the smaller markets than you'd think.
My DMA is one of those.

[Earl Bonovich]

Oh you guys in those big markets...I think you'll find more OTA in the smaller markets than you'd think.
My DMA is one of those.

I am talking for the analog (aka SD versions) of the channels, not the HD...
In a lot of the markets (not just the big ones), OTA is not used for the SD analog reception (there may be exceptions, but very few).

[veryoldschool]

I am talking for the analog (aka SD versions) of the channels, not the HD...
In a lot of the markets (not just the big ones), OTA is not used for the SD analog reception (there may be exceptions, but very few).
I'm a few then. :)

[compnurd]

They really need to clarify all of this for alot of people because a lot of people keep confusing this with a change in HD

[veryoldschool]

They really need to clarify all of this for alot of people because a lot of people keep confusing this with a change in HD
Who is "they"?

[compnurd]

FCC

[veryoldschool]

FCC
Yeah, they send me lots of info....:lol:

[skyboysea]

I'm a few then. :)
Seattle is another member of the "few" club.

[Titan25]

To be perfectlyly clear...

In 2009, OTA brodcasters will be required to cease broadcasting a NTSC analog signal. At that time their ATSC digital broadcast will be their ONLY signal. In many, but not all, cases that will be a HD digital signal. If you have a SD TV and receive TV OTA, you will need an ATSC receiver that will convert the digital signal (regardless of resolution) into a standard NTSC format.

Today, DirecTV takes the NTSC format signal at their Local Recive facility (LRF), digitizes it, and sends it to the uplink location for transmission to your dish. At the same time, in those markets where HD locals are available from DirecTV, they receive the ATSC signal and send it to the uplink.

Once the local broadcasters stop broadcasting a NTSC signal, DirecTV will do one of two things:

1) They will convert the ATSC to NTSC at the LRF.
2) They will convert the ATSC to NTSC at the uplink.

In case 1, they need do nothing else other than the ATSC to NTSC conversion. All other parts of the processing chain are the same.

In case 2, the uplink locations for HD and SD would have to be the same or else they would have to send the NTSC from one uplink to another. The main advantage of doing the conversion at the uplink is to save on backhauls, which is defeated if the uplink locations are not the same.

Which option is used will likely depend on the market, with some done one way, and some done the other.

REALLY long term, they may make an effort to replace all the SD only receivers with HD ones, and then eliminate all the SD/HD simulcasts. That, however, is unlikely to happen within the next 5 years, and more likely will take 10 years.

[Paul Secic]

They really need to clarify all of this for alot of people because a lot of people keep confusing this with a change in HD

They're suppose to make PSAs about the digital transition, but I haven't seen one. I think the NAB is stalling. I've talked to people who say: where is the HD button on my 1996 Set?

[GeorgeLV]

I am talking for the analog (aka SD versions) of the channels, not the HD...
In a lot of the markets (not just the big ones), OTA is not used for the SD analog reception (there may be exceptions, but very few).

I didn't know you could get snow and herringbone noise from fiber. From my experience, I'd have to say the precisely the opposite is true and DirecTV is getting local (SD) channels by antenna and not fiber.

[veryoldschool]

To be perfectlyly clear...

In 2009, OTA brodcasters will be required to cease broadcasting a NTSC analog signal. At that time their ATSC digital broadcast will be their ONLY signal. In many, but not all, cases that will be a HD digital signal. If you have a SD TV and receive TV OTA, you will need an ATSC receiver that will convert the digital signal (regardless of resolution) into a standard NTSC format.

Today, DirecTV takes the NTSC format signal at their Local Recive facility (LRF), digitizes it, and sends it to the uplink location for transmission to your dish. At the same time, in those markets where HD locals are available from DirecTV, they receive the ATSC signal and send it to the uplink.
:confused: I think of this a broadcast signal [maybe incorrectly].
Since everything would some form of a set top box, wouldn't all of this [as it is now] just be a video signal? [or is that what you mean by NTSC?]

[Jeremy W]

I didn't know you could get snow and herringbone noise from fiber. From my experience, I'd have to say the precisely the opposite is true and DirecTV is getting local (SD) channels by antenna and not fiber.
I know that here in Detroit, they get the channels OTA.

[Earl Bonovich]

I know that here in Detroit, they get the channels OTA.

For the ANALOG versions as well? (not the HD ones).

Hmmm... Maybe I'll have to update my knowledge base in my head.
For the longest time (way back before I became a member of DBSTalk)... one of the very well respected posters at TCF layed out how most of the Locals where being received.

[Jeremy W]

For the ANALOG versions as well? (not the HD ones).
Yep. I've seen analog interference on some of the SD locals before.

[veryoldschool]

It looks like D* is using more "rabbit ears" than they'd like to admit. :lol:

[Earl Bonovich]

It looks like D* is using more "rabbit ears" than they'd like to admit. :lol:

For the record, the information I was posting (which appears not to be 100% correct), is from past postings by other people... not from information I got from DirecTV (With regards to the SD versions of the channel, and how they get from broadcaster to DirecTV uplink centers)

[veryoldschool]

For the record, the information I was posting (which appears not to be 100% correct), is from past postings by other people... not from information I got from DirecTV (With regards to the SD versions of the channel, and how they get from broadcaster to DirecTV uplink centers)
I know... [I also used one of these: :lol: ]

I had a talk with a CSR who thought all of the locals were up-linked from the local D* offices to the main uplink center and then send to us.
After I pointed out that this would be using twice the SAT bandwidth, he realized it didn't work that way.

Sometimes you just have to have some fun poking at D*.

I also don't think they are using "rabbit ears". :D

[Titan25]

:confused: I think of this a broadcast signal [maybe incorrectly].
Since everything would some form of a set top box, wouldn't all of this [as it is now] just be a video signal? [or is that what you mean by NTSC?]

Technically, NTSC specifies all aspects of the video signal, such as 29.97 interlaced frames of video per second; 525 vertical lines, with 486 used for video; etc. This is why you have NTSC and PAL video tape recorders, with no broadcasting involved - they two different analog video formats.

ATSC is, of course, the digital succesor to NTSC. It specifies resolution, scan rate and type, frame rate and so on. But this is independant of the transmission medium.

Both NTSC and ATSC have broadcasting components, but they also have wired specifications as well.

In order for a "regular" TV to display a video image it must be delivered to the set in NTSC, whether that is by RF tuner, composite video or S-Video. The variation is only in how the NTSC signal is delivered, not the format of the video itself.

So, somewhere along the line, DirecTV would have to convert the ATSC signal they get from the local broadcasters into NTSC for analog TVs. This is not terribly difficult - most HD satellite receivers do it today to produce composite and/or S-Video output.

[veryoldschool]

Technically, NTSC specifies all aspects of the video signal, such as 29.97 interlaced frames of video per second; 525 vertical lines, with 486 used for video; etc. This is why you have NTSC and PAL video tape recorders, with no broadcasting involved - they two different analog video formats.

ATSC is, of course, the digital succesor to NTSC. It specifies resolution, scan rate and type, frame rate and so on. But this is independant of the transmission medium.

Both NTSC and ATSC have broadcasting components, but they also have wired specifications as well.

In order for a "regular" TV to display a video image it must be delivered to the set in NTSC, whether that is by RF tuner, composite video or S-Video. The variation is only in how the NTSC signal is delivered, not the format of the video itself.

So, somewhere along the line, DirecTV would have to convert the ATSC signal they get from the local broadcasters into NTSC for analog TVs. This is not terribly difficult - most HD satellite receivers do it today to produce composite and/or S-Video output.
I didn't realize it was for video also.
Still the current D* equipment does this so, as D* customers "our end" doesn't change from what is happening now.
While a STB ATSC tuner would do this also wouldn't it?
I guess I still "kind of" don't see the problem or changes as everything in the US whether NTSC or ATSC will all output to our displays though all of the STB I've seen.
If [or when] analog goes away, D* will just change encoders for their data stream, but we'll still use the same decoders for ...ever. :)

[Titan25]

My only point is how DirecTV sources the NTSC version of a local channel. Once the stations stop producing a NTSC version of their own, DirecTV will have to produce one. The alternative would be to only distribute a ATSC version, but the non-HD receivers can't handle an ATSC data stream.

So, until they can replace all the older receivers with H20 or HR20 equivalents, they will have to produce and distribute the NTSC version. From the customer's point of view, it will be no different than today. DirecTV just has to decide whether they produce the NTSC at the LRF and backhaul it to the uplink in parallel with the ATSC version, or backhaul only the ATSC version and produce the NTSC just prior to uplink. In cases where the ATSC (ie. HD) and the NTSC (ie. SD) versions uplink from the same earth station, they will probably just backhaul the ATSC version and convert it at the uplink. In other cases, the ATSC and NTSC versions may uplink from different locations, and so they'll convert at the LRF.

Bottom line, many stations will no longer be producing a "480i" feed, and all the existing SD receivers require one, so DirecTV will have to produce and distribute one. Cable operators have the same issue - their SD digital cable boxes can't handle HD streams, so they need to distribute an NTSC version as well. Both cable and satellite also need to have STBs that can output that 480i stream as a standard NTSC analog signal via composite video, S-Video and RF (eg. channel 3).

[skyboysea]

I also don't think they are using "rabbit ears". :D
I am not quite sure about that considering the quality of the signal we get. Reflections and signal quality changing with the weather do not indicate a nice directional antenna either.

[n3ntj]

I had a talk with a CSR who thought all of the locals were up-linked from the local D* offices to the main uplink center and then send to us.
After I pointed out that this would be using twice the SAT bandwidth, he realized it didn't work that way.

Sometimes you just have to have some fun poking at D*.

I also don't think they are using "rabbit ears". :D

I don't think I'd ask a CSR anything technical (such as how they get their local OTA feeds) because I wouldn't believe what they tell me anyway. :hurah:

Someone had posted a link to a 'hidden' D* webpage that listed the uplink sites and address for most of the cities they provide locals to.

[Jeremy W]

Someone had posted a link to a 'hidden' D* webpage that listed the uplink sites and address for most of the cities they provide locals to.
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P1400108

These aren't uplink sites, though. They're just the places where the feeds are aggregated for each city, and sent back to DirecTV. Usually via fiber.