Screen format

[bigben7]

I just got the HR20 a week a ago and so far I like it. My question is regarding the picture format on some HD channels. I noticed some HD channels particularly SNYH are not filling my screen (42 inch plasma) it displays in the 4:3 mode. I can stretch it using my tv functions but that distorts the picture.

[CCarncross]

IS that channel always dsiplaying 4:3 mode, or just certain programs? Not all HD channels show HD content 100% of the time. There are times when an HD channel will not be showing HD content, for instance, this last weekend, the French Open final was NOT broadcast in HD, but the weekend b4, there was some coverage on ESPN/ESPN2 HD versions, and it WAS in HD.

[bigben7]

IS that channel always dsiplaying 4:3 mode, or just certain programs? Not all HD channels show HD content 100% of the time. There are times when an HD channel will not be showing HD content, for instance, this last weekend, the French Open final was NOT broadcast in HD, but the weekend b4, there was some coverage on ESPN/ESPN2 HD versions, and it WAS in HD.

I'm not sure (I'll check later), but the couple of Met games I watched all displayed in 4:3 mode.

[davring]

HD does not necessarily mean 16:9, Northern Exposure is stunning HD in 4:3.

[compnurd]

SNY I believe only carries Mets Home games in HD. Meaning the others will be in 4:3 format. I believe on SNY that Only mets home games and very few other programming is in HD

[Kapeman]

HD does not necessarily mean 16:9, Northern Exposure is stunning HD in 4:3.

Actually it does.

According to the ATSC standard, anything in 4:3 is SDTV not HDTV.

Here's a link:

http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/broadcasting_atsc_standard/

[superunlikely]

Actually it does.

According to the ATSC standard, anything in 4:3 is SDTV not HDTV.

Here's a link:

http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/broadcasting_atsc_standard/


That is talking about the broadcast signal, not the content. Two related but different things.

[Just J]

I just got the HR20 a week a ago and so far I like it. My question is regarding the picture format on some HD channels. I noticed some HD channels particularly SNYH are not filling my screen (42 inch plasma) it displays in the 4:3 mode. I can stretch it using my tv functions but that distorts the picture.

Welcome to the HR20 club - be sure to join us in the forum for that box (http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112).

You need to distinguish between the channel filling the screen, and the content filling the screen. The easiest way to do it is go into the HR20's settings and set your pillar box color to Gray. Then, when watching a program, if the pillar bars are Gray, you know the channel is sending 4:3 and the HR20 is filling it in on the sides. If the pillar bars are black (or textured or logoed), then you know that the channel/signal is 16:9, but that it is made up of 4:30 content that has been padded on the sides by the broadcaster (this happens a lot with TV shows that were shot in 4:3, like the aforementioned Northern Exposure).

[rjdude]

Welcome to the HR20 club - be sure to join us in the forum for that box (http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112).

....then you know that the channel/signal is 16:9, but that it is made up of 4:30 content that has been padded on the sides by the broadcaster (this happens a lot with TV shows that were shot in 4:3, like the aforementioned Northern Exposure).

...or during commercials! The thing that bugs me the most with some of the local HD feeds is they switch to 4:3 in order to place their call sign at the bottom (ESPECIALLY during the broadcast of an HD program/sporting event) and then you can see the switch back; often they forget to switch back from the call sign or from a commercial.

[Kapeman]

That is talking about the broadcast signal, not the content. Two related but different things.

If it has nothing to do with the content then why does it list 4:3 vs. 16:9?

Isn't the content broadcast in one or the other formats?

Quote from the following:

"Today, twenty five years after NHK began its HDTV work, the ATSC HDTV standard employs the basic 1973, wide screen, 1125 line system with l080 active lines, interlace scanned 2-to-1."

http://hdtvmagazine.com/history/2005/06/a_perspective_o.php

[cygnusloop]

If it has nothing to do with the content then why does it list 4:3 vs. 16:9?

Isn't the content broadcast in one or the other formats?

It is broadcast in 16:9 format, but part of that 16:9 frame is filled out with pillar bars, and the remaining picture is 4:3. Sometimes the broadcaster inserted pillars are black, sometimes gray, sometimes textured or logoed.

This is not the same thing as a 640x480 = 4:3 SD broadcast.

Or did I completely misunderstand your question?

[Kapeman]

It is broadcast in 16:9 format, but part of that 16:9 frame is filled out with pillar bars, and the remaining picture is 4:3. Sometimes the broadcaster inserted pillars are black, sometimes gray, sometimes textured or logoed.

This is not the same thing as a 640x480 = 4:3 SD broadcast.

Or did I completely misunderstand your question?

Right, but the point I am thinking is correct is that by definition HDTV has to be in 16:9 or widescreen format.

In your example wouldn't that be considered an "up-convert" and not a true HD source?

[JMCecil]

Right, but the point I am thinking is correct is that by definition HDTV has to be in 16:9 or widescreen format.

In your example wouldn't that be considered an "up-convert" and not a true HD source?


No, that isn't correct. Take ESPN for example. They have HD programming that is 16x9, but, they put pillar bars on the sides of the screen and present a 4x3 format HD picture within the overall 16x9 frame. This is still considered HD programming.

[cygnusloop]

Right, but the point I am thinking is correct is that by definition HDTV has to be in 16:9 or widescreen format.

In your example wouldn't that be considered an "up-convert" and not a true HD source?

The more common case is when SD is (often poorly) upconverted to the HD rez that the station broadcasts, and then pillars are appended for broadcast. Technically a 720p or 1080i broadcast, though. It just looks crappy.

There are also cases where a series that was originally shot on film, in 4:3 aspect, is remastered to HD, such as the previously mentioned Northern Exposure example. (I believe that Sienfeld has also been remastered to HD, ICBW.)

Now, I don't know if the pillars are added to Northern Exposure at the time of remastering, or at the time of broadcast, as they do with SD. It seems logical that they are added at the time of remastering, though.

[Just J]

Right, but the point I am thinking is correct is that by definition HDTV has to be in 16:9 or widescreen format.

In your example wouldn't that be considered an "up-convert" and not a true HD source?

Well. now you're talking about 3 separate but related things:

The broadcast signal. 720p, 1080i, 1080o - these are all HDTV no matter what the content is..
The content. Is it widescreen or traditional 4:3? You can broadcast either as HDTV. Just as SD uses letterboxing for wdescreen content, HD uses pillarboxing for 4:3 content. Just as you wouldn't call a letterboxed movie broadcast in SD an HD movie because of its shape, you can't call a 4:3 show broadcast in HD an SD show because of its shape.
The source. 4:3 Film scanned to an HD master? Widesceen film scanned to an HD master? Native HD video? CGI HD video? Up-converted "SD" video? Any of these can be broadcast in HDTV. Of course, the source material will affect the HD IQ, but no matter the source, it's still HDTV if it's sent out in 720p or better.

[Kapeman]

Well. now you're talking about 3 separate but related things:

The broadcast signal. 720p, 1080i, 1080o - these are all HDTV no matter what the content is..
The content. Is it widescreen or traditional 4:3? You can broadcast either as HDTV. Just as SD uses letterboxing for wdescreen content, HD uses pillarboxing for 4:3 content. Just as you wouldn't call a letterboxed movie broadcast in SD an HD movie because of its shape, you can't call a 4:3 show broadcast in HD an SD show because of its shape.
The source. 4:3 Film scanned to an HD master? Widesceen film scanned to an HD master? Native HD video? CGI HD video? Up-converted "SD" video? Any of these can be broadcast in HDTV. Of course, the source material will affect the HD IQ, but no matter the source, it's still HDTV if it's sent out in 720p or better.


Well, I guess that answers that! Thanks!

[jeff125va]

Anyone know how Hogan's Heroes on HDNet was done? It's not pillarboxed and it looks really good, i.e. not up-converted. I'd guess that either they cropped the picture or mastered it from the film, but I don't really know. Just curious, I always loved that show but it seems like a pretty big expense for an old show like that.

[jyagnd]

Anyone know how Hogan's Heroes on HDNet was done? It's not pillarboxed and it looks really good, i.e. not up-converted. I'd guess that either they cropped the picture or mastered it from the film, but I don't really know. Just curious, I always loved that show but it seems like a pretty big expense for an old show like that.

from what i know older shows like M*A*S*H , All in the family, hogans heroes and the like were shot on film. 35mm film is hd and wide screen and is easily remastered to present day HD. late 70s shows were shot on tape (480i)so they cant be converted to hd but up converted and are only in 4.3

listen to the ends of some old shows on nick at night or TV land:
"All in the family was filmed in front of a live studio audience"
all in the family and mash can be remastered in HD and look as sweet as Hogans Heros.
if they get a hold of the original films.

"Three's company was taped in front of a live studio audience"

Now taped shows will look ok remastered in hd ,but only be 4.3 because they were originally shot with 480i tape

[Titan25]

Hogan's Heroes was probably shot in 35mm academy aperture. This comes in two flavors, the older, original version (used for most major motion pictures prior to the early 50's) with a 1.33:1 (or 4:3) aspect ratio and the "widescreen" variant, used for some VistaVision prints, with a 1.66:1 (or 10:6) aspect ratio.

Looks to me like widescreen academy was used for Hogan Heroes (there is a tiny bit of black on the left and right of each frame).

[Steve]

Hogan's Heroes was probably shot in 35mm academy aperture. This comes in two flavors, the older, original version (used for most major motion pictures prior to the early 50's) with a 1.33:1 (or 4:3) aspect ratio and the "widescreen" variant, used for some VistaVision prints, with a 1.66:1 (or 10:6) aspect ratio.

Looks to me like widescreen academy was used for Hogan Heroes (there is a tiny bit of black on the left and right of each frame).Do you think Hogan's was originally 10:6? Not sure why they would have done that, since it was originally intended for standard NTSC broadcast. Looks to me like it's just zoomed, with top and bottom being cropped. I've never done a side-by-side with the 4:3 SD, but watching it, I often see tighter than expected crops top and bottom. /s

[davring]

On the same topic but different curiosity, wonder when they will, if ever, start airing the later episodes of Northern Exposure. I am wondering if the later seasons were shot on tape, and won't be broadcast in HD.

[Titan25]

Do you think Hogan's was originally 10:6? Not sure why they would have done that, since it was originally intended for standard NTSC broadcast. Looks to me like it's just zoomed, with top and bottom being cropped. I've never done a side-by-side with the 4:3 SD, but watching it, I often see tighter than expected crops top and bottom. /sIt is possible that it was shot in standard academy (i.e. 4:3) and in the HD conversion they just let the left and right safety show up.

But I don't think that's the case...the image fills the screen too completely. Also, standard academy went out of common use in 1952. I doubt there were that many cameras still around by the time HH was being made. That's probably why it was shot the way it appears on HDNet - that's the type of camera that was generally available.