Mpeg2 HD channels going offline?

[captain_video]

Someone posted over at dealdatabase that they spoke to a DTV rep in customer retention recently and was told that all of the current mpeg2 HD channels would be switching over to mpeg4 by the end of the year. Has anyone else heard anything more about this? Right now it's only a rumor but I'd like to know what's happening for sure so we can squelch it. I expect it will happen at some point but I doubt that DTV can provide replacement HR20's to all of the existing HR10 owners in that time frame. Unless DTV is trolling for bandwidth I can't see this happening anytime soon.

[Titan25]

While I have heard nothing to confirm or deny the idea, I agree that it is unlikely to happen that soon. I also find it unlikely that a customer service rep (even a retention level rep) would both know about an unannounced initiative, and disclose it to a customer over the phone.

That being said, how many HR10 owners are left do you think? I'd be surprised if it is over 50,000, probably much less. DirecTV probably can provide that many HR20s...getting them all installed by year's end is another story.

[Michael D'Angelo]

They will move over to MPEG4 at some point but know one know's for sure when. I am guessing 1 year after the new channels start. So if I am right it will be around September of 2008.

[Drew2k]

Someone at TiVoCommunity also posted that a Retention CSR told them they would lose all MPEG2 HD this year. DirecTV apparently called the poster to say s/he would need to add BBCs, but the poster only has MPEG2 equipment. So DirecTV screwed up, the poster called to complain about the screw-up, and ended up getting incorrect information from a Retention CSR.

I responded over at TCF that there's no way MPEG2 HD will be shut off this year, simply because there are too many MPEG2 HD receivers out there, and a shut-off would alienate all of those customers. DirecTV doesn't want to lose those customers, so they would need to do a massive swap-out to upgrade to MPEG4 equipment, and that will take time. Minimum, MPEG2 HD is here through all of 2008, but maybe ever longer.

[Earl Bonovich]

Is it possible? Sure...
It is more likely a timetable will be set once the DirecTV10 SAT is launched and is operational.

I would be surprised though if ALL is moved by the end of the year, but it is possible that some may move before the end of the year, to make room for all the NFL Sunday Ticket HD games...

I would be stunned if they are not moved by the end of Q2 in 2008

As a note, they have been doing the MPEG-2 HD swapout now for well over a year, while they have ways to go....
A lot will accellerate that process in September when they want to access the new programming.

[raoul5788]

While I have heard nothing to confirm or deny the idea, I agree that it is unlikely to happen that soon. I also find it unlikely that a customer service rep (even a retention level rep) would both know about an unannounced initiative, and disclose it to a customer over the phone.

That being said, how many HR10 owners are left do you think? I'd be surprised if it is over 50,000, probably much less. DirecTV probably can provide that many HR20s...getting them all installed by year's end is another story.

It's more than just the H10 owners. There are also plenty of LG 3200a's and Sony HD200/300's out there. How many total could there be? And how long would it take to replace all of them?

[capecodsooner]

Don't forget the Sony HD-100 owners.

There are a few of us as well:D

[Earl Bonovich]

It's more than just the H10 owners. There are also plenty of LG 3200a's and Sony HD200/300's out there. How many total could there be? And how long would it take to replace all of them?

AS you said... it is much more then just HR10 and H10 owners...
IIRC, it is upwards towards high 6 digits... but I just can't recall which QTR update they where talking about it with #'s.

[lwilli201]

Will D* replace the Sony and LG receivers?

[twistedT]

Don't forget the samsung ts360...... I only use it for OTA, all my HD boxes are mpeg4 now.

[harsh]

Will D* replace the Sony and LG receivers?Certainly! Would you like to lease or buy?

[Newshawk]

Let's list all the D* MPEG 2 HD receivers:

Hughes HIRD-E8, HTL-HD
LG LSS-3200A
Mitsubishi SR-HD5
Panasonic TU-HDS20
Philips DSHD800
Proscan PS34000 (34" HD Direct View TV), PS38000 (38" HD Direct View TV) PS61000 (61" HD Rear Projection TV)
RCA DTC-100, DTC-210, F38310 (38" HD Direct View TV), HD65W30 (65" HD Rear Projection TV), P61300 (61" HD Rear Projection TV)
Samsung SIR-TS160, SIR-TS330, SIR-TS360
Sony SAT-HD100, SAT-HD200, SAT-HD300
Toshiba DST-3000, DW65X91 (65" HD Rear Projection TV)
Zenith DTV 1080, HD-SAT520

Many of the above receivers were made by just a few companies (Thomson, Hughes and LG) and rebadged by the other manufacturers.

[antneye]

I think they are going offline in September. I just got a call from a DTV rep asking me to confirm that the converters are installed in my HR20. He said if they aren't installed I will lose my HD channels in September.

Does anone know what this is about?

[cforrest]

You'll need the BBC installed to get the new MPEG-4 HD channels in September otherwise you won't receive them. You will not lose any HD channels in September otherwise.

[Ken984]

All they need to do is make sure all Sunday Ticket with Superfan subs have MPEG4 receivers. That would be the first step, then all NFL HD could be up on the new sats, but they have to get the new sat in space and working first.
After that is done, they could then accelerate the swap for the remaining people who have MPEG2 only HD boxes, with a cutoff date announced for middle of next year, that would be an ideal schedule.

[Titan25]

So if Earl is right and there are, let's say 750,000 MPEG2 only HD receivers of all flavors in the wild, DirecTV would have to replace over 5,000 units PER DAY every day from now to the end of the year to replace them all.

The limiting factor is not manufacturing receivers, it is installing 5 LNB dishes!

[jdspencer]

I currently get my network HD with DNS from NY. If an MPEG2 cutoff should occur, will DirecTV still have MPEG4 DNS for those of us yet to have locals? I suspect that the MPEG2 DNS will remain until all DMAs are covered with their local HD channels.

[Earl Bonovich]

I currently get my network HD with DNS from NY. If an MPEG2 cutoff should occur, will DirecTV still have MPEG4 DNS for those of us yet to have locals? I suspect that the MPEG2 DNS will remain until all DMAs are covered with their local HD channels.

ALL HD will be converted to MPEG-4... including the DNS Locals.
Will there be an MPEG-4 DNS version, most certainly...

however, I would not be surprised if at that time they go through the whole process again, of validating on who can get them or not.

[jdspencer]

I guess only time will tell. Going through the waiver process will most likely get me denied for ABC, CBS and Fox since those are now available OTA here.

Do you have any slightest inking for when DirecTV will offer locals for DMA 157?

[P Smith]

So if Earl is right and there are, let's say 750,000 MPEG2 only HD receivers of all flavors in the wild, DirecTV would have to replace over 5,000 units PER DAY every day from now to the end of the year to replace them all.

The limiting factor is not manufacturing receivers, it is installing 5 LNB dishes!
TO be correct, multiply the numbers by 10 ! That would be _optimistic_ count.

[rkjg24]

Check 499 on MPEG-4 receivers. if you have a SFSS, then you have the BBC. If not, it should give you a prompt to order them. There's one receiver it doesn't do it on right now...just can't remember.

[Titan25]

TO be correct, multiply the numbers by 10 ! That would be _optimistic_ count.

I seriously doubt that there are 7.5 million MPEG2 only HD receivers...that would be 1/3 of all the DirecTV receivers in use. They have been shipping MPEG4 capable units through most of HD adoption period in the base.

I remember when they started shipping the H20 that it was estimated that there were a little over a million MPEG2 only HD receivers (including the HR10). A remainder of 750,000 or so seems reasonable.

[cavihitts]

Check 499 on MPEG-4 receivers. if you have a SFSS, then you have the BBC. If not, it should give you a prompt to order them. There's one receiver it doesn't do it on right now...just can't remember.

The H20-100 will give a black screen reguardless of them being installed/working.

Also, the HR20-100 will give eronous info if you are getting services from the 95 or 72.5

[P Smith]

I seriously doubt that there are 7.5 million MPEG2 only HD receivers...that would be 1/3 of all the DirecTV receivers in use. They have been shipping MPEG4 capable units through most of HD adoption period in the base.

I remember when they started shipping the H20 that it was estimated that there were a little over a million MPEG2 only HD receivers (including the HR10). A remainder of 750,000 or so seems reasonable.
I'd like to see reliable source of the info.

[Dolly]

ALL HD will be converted to MPEG-4... including the DNS Locals.
Will there be an MPEG-4 DNS version, most certainly...

however, I would not be surprised if at that time they go through the whole process again, of validating on who can get them or not.
Oh I hope not :raspberry We got the waivers the last time, but now I doubt we could get them because since then we have gotten our local channels. So far we haven't lost our DNS, but I'm just waiting for it to happen :(

[Earl Bonovich]

I'd like to see reliable source of the info.

Well this is about as close a I have been able to locate (I know there was a more recent update then this but)..

http://www.highdefforum.com/archive/index.php/t-4417.html


At that point it was about 500,000 HD users....

So figure a modest growth, with at the time H10 and HR10-250 products, during that year... since in later half of '05 they stopped selling the H10 (and other non-MPEG-4 HD receivers), and the H20 and HR10-250 was the primary receivers to purchase.

Then with HR10-250's never clipping the 500,000 mark (IIRC the highest I ever saw a report was around 250k)....

It is very possible that is right around the 1,000,000 point... (and I am 99% sure I have seen the 1,000,000 in a formal statement/webcast from DirecTV... just having trouble with google tracking it down).

I am certain it isn't 7,000,000 (1/3 of the base).

[Alan Gordon]

We need to consider several things:

1. DirecTV has been selling/leasing MPEG-4 equipment for a while now...

2. DirecTV offers HD-LIL to 70% of US households. The majority of DirecTV HD customers are most likely in this group... and unless you have an HR10-250, what reason was there to not upgrade to a MPEG-4 receiver and get HD-LIL?

3. Due to DirecTV covering 70% of the US with HD-LIL, the number of people with HD DNS is quite a bit smaller since a lot of customers in this group was receiving HD DNS due to O&Os.

4. The number of Sunday Ticket HD customers are probably less than those customers receiving HBO or Showtime in HD.

5. The number of customers receiving HBO-HD or Showtime-HD are probably less than those receiving the HD package.

6. There are some people who have HD receivers, but do not subscribe to the HD package.

Last year, I think it was, an executive at DirecTV (I forgot which one) indicated that they were going to be switching out the HD DNS customers last year, starting with the West Coast, then moving to the East Coast HD DNS customers. A poster on SatelliteGuys.us was even contacted by DirecTV to switch out his receiver with the H20 because of the change... but obviously, the HD DNS feeds are still MPEG2, so why DirecTV's plans changed, I don't know... but it makes sense that DirecTV would once again start with the HD DNS feeds... especially now that they have so many DMAs up in HD which takes care of a lot of the people who were receiving HD DNS because of the O&Os...

It would be VERY interesting to know the amount of subscribers with MPEG2-only equipment that subscribe to Sunday Ticket, but I'm not going to make a guess without any idea of it being feasible or not...

Subscribers to HBO-HD and/or Showtime-HD would make a lot of sense next, leaving only the HD package left.

Personally, I think that Earl's 2Q 2008 sounds about right to me...

I wouldn't be surprised to see DirecTV mirror the current channels in MPEG4 hopefully appeasing the people complaining about HD-Lite and allowing HR20 owners to have more space to record...

~Alan

[P Smith]

My source told about a number bigger then your estimation.

EDIT. Ooops ! I was mistakenly counted SD receivers when the thread specifically asked about MPEG-2 HD models.

[twistedT]

Here is this from Chase Carey:

over the next two plus years that will leave us it look like around 800,000 customers will have to convert from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 cost per conversion which will come down a bit over time will be sort of in the $400 plus range.

From fourth quarter results 2005: http://media.seekingalpha.com/article/6718

[P Smith]

Well, customers; I'm counting _receivers_.

[michaelyork29]

I highly doubt DTV will take off the MPEG-2's anytime soon. Wouldn't be good for their customer base...

And I'm sure that if there were still some leftover HR10's or H10's, DTV would replace them...

[morgantown]

Mirror the MPEG-2 in MPEG-4, wait a year and then cutoff MPEG-2 (HD specific only). That always seems to be where this discussion comes back to (whether now or a year ago).

Just my .02

[twistedT]

Well, customers; I'm counting _receivers_.

I didn't even notice it said customers not boxes. I was just posting the info that I

could find. I am guessing that most people only have one HD tv with one D* HD

stb. NOT like most of us here with 3 or more HDTVs.:lol:

[bigsurfing]

I live in Los Angeles. Currently have a Hughes HTL-HD box

Anyhow, a couple days ago I noticed that 81 (cbshd), 83 (nbc), 87 (abc) and 89 (fox) all disappeared. Just a blank screen with the message "channel not available".

Called up DirecTV, spent over an hour on the phone with them, going through the initial setup stuff (which I did on my own). Anyhow, the channels re-appeared - yet the programming on them doesn't match the channel label/info anymore, haha.

Example - 81 (CBSHD) is now MSNBC standard def - content. Hit the info or guide button and it says "CBSW" and what the program is. The samething on the rest of the old local HD's... 83 (NBC) now shows the SD Bloomberg feed and 87 shows CNBC... I mean it's one thing to shut them off or whatever they did. However, to just toss random stations on them?? -- msnbc is still on ch.356 as well btw. No one at directv had any answer as to why this was happening.

Went through about 3 reps and bumped up to tier 2 support -- he finally said that I needed a new HD box that supports mpeg4. So they sent out an H20 box and only charged me shipping which arrived today. The one thing I didn't care for is that it's a refurbished unit, something he failed to mention on the phone. Or the fact I wasted 1.5 hours of my time on the phone for something a simple call or letter from DirecTV would have solved. Something stating what was going to be occuring in the short term future and that equipment would need to be upgraded. This wouldn't have only been a good idea, but professional.

The straw that broke the camels back however, is that there is no serial port on the back of the H20, so my Toshiba SDH400 (tivo that came with the lifetime subscription) has no way to change channels. It's a standard def tivo technically, but when recording HDTV channels on it in best quality mode, look pretty good on playback, the visual delta between it and live broadcast is pretty thin. Which is good enough for my purposes and no monthly tivo fees from direcTV. That and little stuff like the H20 doesn't have a LED to display the current channel.

I did find a discussion on a place that sells a serial to usb converter, however, all of this is adding up to more effort than I care to deal with anymore. What's next, duct tape?

DirecTV has been nice to date and in the past I've recommended it, but TimeWarner is moving into the neighborhood in about a month. Their package deals with a 8mbps cable modem, hdtv w/hd-dvr come in at about $15 more then what I'm paying with directv and I don't have to use a refurb box with a patch cable so my tivo can operate. Cancelling my current broadband - I'll come out ahead.

So the H20 refurb they sent me is going back and I'm going to timewarner. Yeah, the picture quality is better on DirecTV but not that much better at the end of day. Especially now being able to consolidate 2 utility bills into one, get a faster internet connection to boot, and a true HD-DVR and pay less.

-d

[carl6]

Be careful - you most likely incurred a new two year committment when you activated the HD receiver.

Carl

[Earl Bonovich]

I highly doubt DTV will take off the MPEG-2's anytime soon. Wouldn't be good for their customer base...

And I'm sure that if there were still some leftover HR10's or H10's, DTV would replace them...

Actually...
In 2005 terms... when the plan was announced... it "wasn't anytime soon".

But this whole process started back in January of 2005...
They shortly after stopped selling NON-MPEG4 receivers....

This has been a long time comming.... and yes... MPEG-2 HD is going to be gone... fairly soon... I honest don't see it being around much longer after the end of the football season.

[kevinwmsn]

A year ago today they were still giving out hr10s, I know I got one about a week or 2 before the NFL season started. That number of non mpeg4 hd recievers is likely to be higher.

[Jeremy W]

A year ago today they were still giving out hr10s
Yes, but the HR20 has been selling like wildfire. A good number of those HR10s have already been replaced with HR20s.

[captain_video]

2. DirecTV offers HD-LIL to 70% of US households. The majority of DirecTV HD customers are most likely in this group... and unless you have an HR10-250, what reason was there to not upgrade to a MPEG-4 receiver and get HD-LIL?
If you can get your HD locals via OTA there was absolutely no reason to get the ones that DTV offers. I get more OTA HD channels than DTV can offer (14 OTA vs. 4 from DTV) so there was absolutely no reason to switch to mpeg4 for me. I currently record them all with my HTPC so there is no longer a reason to own either an HR10-250 or an HR20-700 or any other HD receiver with OTA capability to get my HD locals.

6. There are some people who have HD receivers, but do not subscribe to the HD package.
This is no longer true since DTV discontinued the HD package several months ago and now charges everyone with an HD capable receiver or DVR an HD access fee. You're paying extra for the privilege of owning an HD receiver whether you view HD channels or not.

Yes, but the HR20 has been selling like wildfire. A good number of those HR10s have already been replaced with HR20s.
I think you mean to say that they're leasing like widfire since it's unlikely many people will pony up the purchase price DTV is asking for them. Many of those HR10's are ending up on ebay and getting put right back into operation. DirecTV hasn't taken them all out of service by replacing them but they have probably increased their HD subscriber base or at least increased the number of receivers subscribed to DTV. Chances are, many of the people that are buying up the used HR10-250's are already DTV subscribers and are just looking to add another HDTivo to their account. People aren't simply going to trash a DVR they paid big bucks for and DTV isn't taking them in exchange for the HR20's. Reports from most people making the switch is that DTV is telling them to keep the HR10-250's instead of sending them to DTV. The price for used HDTivos hasn't really dropped and may have actually increased slightly over the past six months.

[beavis]

I live in Los Angeles. Currently have a Hughes HTL-HD box

Anyhow, a couple days ago I noticed that 81 (cbshd), 83 (nbc), 87 (abc) and 89 (fox) all disappeared. Just a blank screen with the message "channel not available".

Called up DirecTV, spent over an hour on the phone with them, going through the initial setup stuff (which I did on my own). Anyhow, the channels re-appeared - yet the programming on them doesn't match the channel label/info anymore, haha.

Example - 81 (CBSHD) is now MSNBC standard def - content. Hit the info or guide button and it says "CBSW" and what the program is. The samething on the rest of the old local HD's... 83 (NBC) now shows the SD Bloomberg feed and 87 shows CNBC... I mean it's one thing to shut them off or whatever they did. However, to just toss random stations on them?? -- msnbc is still on ch.356 as well btw. No one at directv had any answer as to why this was happening.

Went through about 3 reps and bumped up to tier 2 support -- he finally said that I needed a new HD box that supports mpeg4. So they sent out an H20 box and only charged me shipping which arrived today. The one thing I didn't care for is that it's a refurbished unit, something he failed to mention on the phone. Or the fact I wasted 1.5 hours of my time on the phone for something a simple call or letter from DirecTV would have solved. Something stating what was going to be occuring in the short term future and that equipment would need to be upgraded. This wouldn't have only been a good idea, but professional.

The straw that broke the camels back however, is that there is no serial port on the back of the H20, so my Toshiba SDH400 (tivo that came with the lifetime subscription) has no way to change channels. It's a standard def tivo technically, but when recording HDTV channels on it in best quality mode, look pretty good on playback, the visual delta between it and live broadcast is pretty thin. Which is good enough for my purposes and no monthly tivo fees from direcTV. That and little stuff like the H20 doesn't have a LED to display the current channel.

I did find a discussion on a place that sells a serial to usb converter, however, all of this is adding up to more effort than I care to deal with anymore. What's next, duct tape?

DirecTV has been nice to date and in the past I've recommended it, but TimeWarner is moving into the neighborhood in about a month. Their package deals with a 8mbps cable modem, hdtv w/hd-dvr come in at about $15 more then what I'm paying with directv and I don't have to use a refurb box with a patch cable so my tivo can operate. Cancelling my current broadband - I'll come out ahead.

So the H20 refurb they sent me is going back and I'm going to timewarner. Yeah, the picture quality is better on DirecTV but not that much better at the end of day. Especially now being able to consolidate 2 utility bills into one, get a faster internet connection to boot, and a true HD-DVR and pay less.

-d


Kinda sounds like the box wasn't outputting the 22khz tone needed for 110/119. Course, if you were able to access 70-79 that wouldn't be the case.

[Steve]

This has been a long time comming.... and yes... MPEG-2 HD is going to be gone... fairly soon... I honest don't see it being around much longer after the end of the football season.What do you think about MPEG-2 SD? Will it always be around? Or do you think they will ultimately convert those to MPEG-4 as well? /s

[Jeremy W]

If you can get your HD locals via OTA there was absolutely no reason to get the ones that DTV offers.
There is one very good reason: to save on hard drive space. The PQ is basically indistinguishable, so why not record the one that takes up less space?

[Jeremy W]

What do you think about MPEG-2 SD? Will it always be around? Or do you think they will ultimately convert those to MPEG-4 as well? /s
MPEG2 SD is going to be dead eventually. There's no reason to keep it around, it's old and outdated. But we're talking a good 5-10 years here before anything even begins to happen.

[GeorgeLV]

MPEG2 SD is going to be dead eventually. There's no reason to keep it around, it's old and outdated. But we're talking a good 5-10 years here before anything even begins to happen.

I don't even think you can put a time table on it until 8psk/mpeg4 tuners are included in the standard receivers.

[Steve]

There is one very good reason: to save on hard drive space. The PQ is basically indistinguishable, so why not record the one that takes up less space?Hard disk space is cheap. I'll stop recording MPEG-2 OTA when MPEG-4 trick play works as smoothly for sporting events. :rolleyes: /s

[Jeremy W]

I don't even think you can put a time table on it until 8psk/mpeg4 tuners are included in the standard receivers.
I think you can, and I think my time table is realistic.

[Earl Bonovich]

What do you think about MPEG-2 SD? Will it always be around? Or do you think they will ultimately convert those to MPEG-4 as well? /s

Long Long Long time....
A minimum of 5 years... probably closer to 10...

As of today you are lookng at possibly 35,000,000 receivers that would have to be replaced.

[captain_video]

There is one very good reason: to save on hard drive space. The PQ is basically indistinguishable, so why not record the one that takes up less space?
That may have been a good reason about five years ago but with today's hard drive prices you can get 3-4 times the drive capacity for what the original 250GB drive cost when it was new. You can always add whatever drive space you need to suit your viewing habits so it's a moot point at best. Since you indicate the PQ is indistinguishable that just means there's another reason why NOT to make the switch. If there was a noticeable improvement in PQ then it would be a no-brainer for most people. Otherwise, why bother if there's no incentive, especially since it locks you into another two years with DTV.

[Jeremy W]

If there was a noticeable improvement in PQ then it would be a no-brainer for most people. Otherwise, why bother if there's no incentive, especially since it locks you into another two years with DTV.
The PQ can't possibly be any better than OTA, since the OTA signal is the source. And the real reason for upgrading is to get all of the new HD channels anyway, so the OTA vs. HD LIL debate is really a moot point.

[twistedT]

Bring on the MPEG4!!! I am ready to put mpeg2 out to pasture. I purposely waited an extra year to get the HR20. I resisted the urge to get the HR-10 so I wouldn't be stuck in the mpeg2 rut. I personally can't wait for all mpeg4.
OOOH-RAH! Bring on the HD!!

[Jeremy W]

I purposely waited an extra year to get the HR20. I resisted the urge to get the HR-10 so I wouldn't be stuck in the mpeg2 rut.
I did the same thing, as did a lot of other people on here. It was kind of annoying with the delays the HR20 faced, but it'll be worth it come September when all of those new HD channels go live.

[cavihitts]

Actually...
In 2005 terms... when the plan was announced... it "wasn't anytime soon".

But this whole process started back in January of 2005...
They shortly after stopped selling NON-MPEG4 receivers....

This has been a long time comming.... and yes... MPEG-2 HD is going to be gone... fairly soon... I honest don't see it being around much longer after the end of the football season.

I agree. I believe it might be sooner than some think. There are going to be a lot of commitments going out to those that have/want to upgrade too. Also, now you are required to activate HD Access and keep it. So what if D* doesn't increase price of the HD Access when the channels launch, get everyone to upgrade with commitments, then maybe raise the price in March '08. Of course all of that was my opinion. Maybe it will go that way maybe it won't time will tell.

[joed32]

We will get some kind of an increase in March, it happens every year.

[Jeremy W]

We will get some kind of an increase in March, it happens every year.
Actually, last time they changed the price of the HD Package, as it was known back then, they decreased it.

[harsh]

But this whole process started back in January of 2005...
They shortly after stopped selling NON-MPEG4 receivers....They were installing HR10s up to the widespread availability of the HR20 (September 2006?).

[cforrest]

Actually, last time they changed the price of the HD Package, as it was known back then, they decreased it.

Jeremy,

Last time they changed the price of the HD package, this past March, they increased it. Customers with the package though were grandfathered in at the old price. :)

[captain_video]

The PQ can't possibly be any better than OTA, since the OTA signal is the source. And the real reason for upgrading is to get all of the new HD channels anyway, so the OTA vs. HD LIL debate is really a moot point.
Since the new HD channels don't exist yet your argument holds no water. When they actually do go online then there would be a valid reason to make the switch, but not until that occurs.

Right now there is absolutely no incentive to swap out your mpeg2 gear for mpeg4 unless you are unable to get your HD locals via OTA, unless DTV already has them in mpeg4. However, if everyone waited until the last minute to switch then you may end up waiting for an opening to get your new dish installed as well as a possible shortage of mpeg4 receiving equipment if DTV gets swamped with requests all at once.

I'm perfectly content with my 14 OTA HD channels in mpep2. The five ATSC tuners I have in my HTPC record them all just fine, and with no DTV commitment I might add. I'll be looking forward to the same HD channels when they get added to my FIOS lineup so I can record them on my S3 Tivo.:D

[cavihitts]

Jeremy,

Last time they changed the price of the HD package, this past March, they increased it. Customers with the package though were grandfathered in at the old price. :)

In the beginning of March they did raise it to $10.99 but immediately decided to lower it back to $9.99.

[Steve]

[...]Right now there is absolutely no incentive to swap out your mpeg2 gear for mpeg4 unless you are unable to get your HD locals via OTA, unless DTV already has them in mpeg4.[...]Only partly true. I had to switch because it was the only way I could regularly get my two RSNs (622 and 625) in HD. /s

[Jeremy W]

Jeremy,

Last time they changed the price of the HD package, this past March, they increased it. Customers with the package though were grandfathered in at the old price. :)
Like cavihitts said, that increase lasted a very short time.

[cforrest]

Didn't know they caved, since I had the old price, only knew they had raised it. Glad they kept it the same price, I am sure next year they'll raise everyone $1 for the HD, get more $$ from their customers. Hope I am wrong.

[P Smith]

I would expect higher increase, especially talking get up to 80 new channels. Could be easy raised to $20 in par with Dish.

[lwilli201]

Does any one have a conservative estimate as to how many subs will eventually get a HD DVR, 20%, 40%. I really think D* needs to come out with a less expensive H20 type receiver. No less functions but fewer and less expensive chips and smaller box. Look at the size of the D12. It has all and more functions as the earlier large SD boxes. Do not distribute any new SD only boxes and replace all old SD boxes. I believe that the HD DVR replacements will pretty much take care of them selfs. When everyone has a MPEG4 capable box, D* can shut down all SD channels that has an HD counterpart. Those that still have older 4:3 TV's will be able to see HD content in letter box, the same as OTA with new digital converter box. A new less expensive HR20 type receiver with less functions would only work as an inducement for new customers. I believe that the current HD DVR has more capabilities than most subs would ever use. Most new subs would not miss networking, eSATA, etc. They could upgrade later if they catch the DBSTalk bug. Most people just want to plug it in and want it to work.

[Jeremy W]

I would expect higher increase, especially talking get up to 80 new channels. Could be easy raised to $20 in par with Dish.
It won't be $20, because of the simple fact that it's mandatory for all HD receivers. They can get away with charging a lower price because it's spread out over more subscribers.

[P Smith]

I would bet for end of this or start of next year the HD fee will be raised.

[Jeremy W]

I would bet for end of this or start of next year the HD fee will be raised.
If they raise it, it will be in March when they do their annual price hike. They have gone on record saying that the fee will not be raised when the new channels come online.

[bigsurfing]

Be careful - you most likely incurred a new two year committment when you activated the HD receiver.

Carl

I never activated the new H20 they sent me.. as I was going through the re-wire and noticed no serial port, it went back into the box. Even if I did activate it, not a chance they'd get that to stick.. to my account at least.


However, DirecTV after a phone call to retention offered me a new HD-DVR (didn't mention what model, I'm guessing whatever one they are currently offering).

Deal I was offered was: $150 shipped for the unit (she first said $300 and I told her to get serious) and $10 off my monthly subscription for a year.

You guys think this is a good deal and worth going with (I actually like DTV, just the hassle of the last week pissed me off enough to consider dumping them).

So what do you all think of the $150/shipped for their HD-DVR? good deal or should I push to see if it can be had cheaper? (btw, my current receiver for those of you who didn't read my post is a Hughes HTL-HD - no dvr built in, got a lifetmie tivo/toshiba SDH400 I've been running with it).

Thanks
D

[Jeremy W]

So what do you all think of the $150/shipped for their HD-DVR?
$150 shipped plus $120 in programming credits is a great deal. You'll only end up paying 10% of the original price.

[bigsurfing]

$150 shipped plus $120 in programming credits is a great deal. You'll only end up paying 10% of the original price.


I was thinking the samething... until I saw Dish is offering a free HD-DVR. haha.

Looks like I'll be doing a little more haggling tomorrow. If they don't move off where we are, it's still a good deal.. but there is more to be had.

Especially since the programming credit discussion went like this:

"I can offer you $10 off for 6 months"

"How about we make that 12"

"umm, Ok."

There is a lot of wiggle room in all this.

My biggest issue with all of it is the upfront costs. Like this Hughes HD receiver I have now. I paid $300 for it - only for it to turn into a paper weight effectively. I'd rather DTV bear that risk, instead of me this time around - especially since the equipment is now leased on top of it all. Sure the cable companies charge $12/mo for a HD-DVR, but it's monthly and if something better comes along, they just swap it out, no questions asked and not with a refurb. I don't want to have to do this again the next time they decide change their technology, I have better things to do with my time.

-d

[Earl Bonovich]

They were installing HR10s up to the widespread availability of the HR20 (September 2006?).

That is correct... however the NET number of HR10-250's was capped since they stopped production of them back in late '05 early '06.

So they knew how many where getting out there...

[Earl Bonovich]

Does any one have a conservative estimate as to how many subs will eventually get a HD DVR, 20%, 40%. I really think D* needs to come out with a less expensive H20 type receiver. No less functions but fewer and less expensive chips and smaller box. Look at the size of the D12. It has all and more functions as the earlier large SD boxes. Do not distribute any new SD only boxes and replace all old SD boxes. I believe that the HD DVR replacements will pretty much take care of them selfs. When everyone has a MPEG4 capable box, D* can shut down all SD channels that has an HD counterpart. Those that still have older 4:3 TV's will be able to see HD content in letter box, the same as OTA with new digital converter box. A new less expensive HR20 type receiver with less functions would only work as an inducement for new customers. I believe that the current HD DVR has more capabilities than most subs would ever use. Most new subs would not miss networking, eSATA, etc. They could upgrade later if they catch the DBSTalk bug. Most people just want to plug it in and want it to work.


They are working on the successor to the H20... but how much more inexpensive do you want it? Vast majority of customers can their first one for free... 2nd for a lot less... (the H20's).

It is not when "everyone" has an MPEG-4 capable box, it is going to be when a certain majority number.. has them... and then DirecTV will force the issue, by moving some... then the rest.

I highly doubt you are going to see a drastically more inexpensive HD-DVR... maybe a little, but you are not going to get that much more inexpensive then it already is.

You are probably not going to see a completely stripped down model (Aka one that just records, does nothing else)... Because it is still going to need most of the expensive pieces in the system.

[wipeout]

If I do not wish to swap out my HD-Tivo and am willing to give up the HD-Package, will I still get my HD-DNS out of N.Y.? I love the Tivo software.

[Earl Bonovich]

If I do not wish to swap out my HD-Tivo and am willing to give up the HD-Package, will I still get my HD-DNS out of N.Y.? I love the Tivo software.

Nope, not after the switch over.
All HD material is converting to MPEG-4.

Your HR10-250 will only be good for SAT-SD material of the 101, 110, 119 (and international sats).
And OTA Locals

[P Smith]

Earl, when DTV will stabilize HW model(s) and fix SW bugs, total revenue will rump up !

[man_rob]

If I do not wish to swap out my HD-Tivo and am willing to give up the HD-Package, will I still get my HD-DNS out of N.Y.? I love the Tivo software.

I have the standard def D*TiVo. I do love it too, but two weeks ago, I also got an HR20. I was nervous about it, but so far, it has been great. I experienced no major culture shock, and although it is different the the TiVo, I'd say it's just as nice. From what I've read, early adopters had a rough road of it for a while, (if they haven't, D* should offer those folks credits for the involuntary beta testing.) but by and large the HR20 is now a good machine. My TiVo now resides in my bedroom. I love having a DVR there, but, two weeks in, I like the HR20 just as much. Unless there is some major TiVo-only feature that you just can't do without, you should consider an HR20. It seems dual buffers are a sticky issue for some, but for the D*TiVo features lacking in the HR20, there are HR20 features that the D*TiVo lacks. In the end, I'd say its a tie between the two, each having their own strengths and weaknesses. If D* offered a MPEG4 capable TiVo based unit, without crippling many of the TiVo features, as they have disabled many features with their previous TiVos, I'd definitely consider that too.

On MPEG2 versus MPEG4 channels: At this time, is it only the local channels that are carried in MPEG4?

[Earl Bonovich]

On MPEG2 versus MPEG4 channels: At this time, is it only the local channels that are carried in MPEG4?

Basically: Yes

You have the RSN's... but those are also classified (as of right now), as "locals"...

[Alan Gordon]

This is no longer true since DTV discontinued the HD package several months ago and now charges everyone with an HD capable receiver or DVR an HD access fee. You're paying extra for the privilege of owning an HD receiver whether you view HD channels or not.

I believe you are wrong, as the "grandfather clause" is in effect... at least, that's how it was explained to me. First time customers who subscribed to DirecTV's HD after a certain time have to pay for HD access regardless of whether they want it or not. Those of us who already had the HD package, and most likely, those of us who upgraded/will upgrade to a newer receiver (H20, HR20) have to, but currently, I can drop the HD package/HD access fee any time I want. However, since I'm running cables this week to a new location for where I want the SlimLine dish to go, and will be calling DirecTV to try and get a good deal on the HR20 shortly after, I will then, most likely be locked into the HD Access Fee... but there are most likely some people who are perfectly fine with SD access and OTA HD access that do not or will not any time soon add HD access to their account...

Many of those HR10's are ending up on ebay and getting put right back into operation. DirecTV hasn't taken them all out of service by replacing them but they have probably increased their HD subscriber base or at least increased the number of receivers subscribed to DTV. Chances are, many of the people that are buying up the used HR10-250's are already DTV subscribers and are just looking to add another HDTivo to their account. People aren't simply going to trash a DVR they paid big bucks for and DTV isn't taking them in exchange for the HR20's. Reports from most people making the switch is that DTV is telling them to keep the HR10-250's instead of sending them to DTV. The price for used HDTivos hasn't really dropped and may have actually increased slightly over the past six months.

While it's true that many of these HR10-250's have been put on EBay, a lot of them have simply moved their HR10-250 to another SD-only room allowing them a lot more recording space. That's what I'm planning on doing... the HR10-250 is going to the living room (family room) and the HR20 will be going in the Den. Personally, I think DirecTV should only count people with HR10-250s on their account if the people do not have a MPEG4-capable receiver on their account. If they do, they won't have any of their services cut off...

~Alan

[gully_foyle]

If and when D* is completely MPEG4 and the HR10 is no longer useful for D* HD, will the unit be freed to work OTA without a (useless) D* subscription? AFAIK this limitation is purely software.

[gully_foyle]

I believe you are wrong, as the "grandfather clause" is in effect... at least, that's how it was explained to me. First time customers who subscribed to DirecTV's HD after a certain time have to pay for HD access regardless of whether they want it or not. Those of us who already had the HD package, and most likely, those of us who upgraded/will upgrade to a newer receiver (H20, HR20) have to, but currently, I can drop the HD package/HD access fee any time I want. However, since I'm running cables this week to a new location for where I want the SlimLine dish to go, and will be calling DirecTV to try and get a good deal on the HR20 shortly after, I will then, most likely be locked into the HD Access Fee...
~Alan

Umm ... possibly not. I added an additional (leased) HR20 to my (owned) HR10, and they came out, put up the dish, ran more wires, added a multiswitch, etc. And I am still billed for "Total Access" + separate HD. Slightly cheaper. I imagine this will change after the Big Bang in September (and HD rates go up), but I see no reason why you won't have the same package once the installer leaves.

Note: They DO charge you $5/month for an "additional receiver" if you are using an "owned" box, something that is waived if it is leased. Basically they lease you your own box.

[Earl Bonovich]

If and when D* is completely MPEG4 and the HR10 is no longer useful for D* HD, will the unit be freed to work OTA without a (useless) D* subscription? AFAIK this limitation is purely software.

You will need a D* subscription, as you would have no access to Guide Data if you don't have a subscription.

Also the unit would not record, with out a valid DVR Service activation on the unit.

So while you may have access to the 30 minute buffer, the unit may become simply an OTA receiver (not even a recorder)... if you disconnect it from DirecTV service.

[Earl Bonovich]

I imagine this will change after the Big Bang in September (and HD rates go up),

Chase Carey is alread on record (during the last Quarterly financial report), stating that the HD rate will not increase this fall, when the channels go live.

[Alan Gordon]

Umm ... possibly not. I added an additional (leased) HR20 to my (owned) HR10, and they came out, put up the dish, ran more wires, added a multiswitch, etc. And I am still billed for "Total Access" + separate HD. Slightly cheaper. I imagine this will change after the Big Bang in September (and HD rates go up), but I see no reason why you won't have the same package once the installer leaves.

I'm sorry... I don't understand... you're billed for Total Access AND the HD package? How is that slightly cheaper... or are you saying that both are just listed on the bill?

Note: They DO charge you $5/month for an "additional receiver" if you are using an "owned" box, something that is waived if it is leased. Basically they lease you your own box.

I have three TiVos on my DirecTV account (2 SD, 1 HD), and the HR10-250 in the Den will be replaced by the HR20, the HR10-250 will then replace the SD TiVo (80 hour) in the Living Room, which will in turn replace the 35-hour one in the Master Bedroom. The 35-hour TiVo will then be deactivated and shelved in case one of the other TiVos break. All three are owned. The HR20 will be leased.

I don't intend on paying anything additional...

~Alan

[Steve]

I'm sorry... I don't understand... you're billed for Total Access AND the HD package? How is that slightly cheaper... or are you saying that both are just listed on the bill?[...]I am too. It's a holdover from when Total Access w/ locals was called "Total Choice Plus". When I go to the "change your plan" page, it states that once I make a change, I can no longer reinstate this deal. Including the DVR fee, I think I save $1 a month by not switching! :lol: /s

06/09 07/08 TOTAL CHOICE PLUS Monthly 51.99
06/09 07/08 HD Access Monthly 9.99
[...]

[Paul Secic]

Bring on the MPEG4!!! I am ready to put mpeg2 out to pasture. I purposely waited an extra year to get the HR20. I resisted the urge to get the HR-10 so I wouldn't be stuck in the mpeg2 rut. I personally can't wait for all mpeg4.
OOOH-RAH! Bring on the HD!!

I'm waitin til 2020. HD costs too much. By then Directv might charge $120 for HD.

[Jeremy W]

I'm waitin til 2020. HD costs too much. By then Directv might charge $120 for HD.
By 2020, if there is still a separate charge for HD, then things have gone terribly wrong.

[carl6]

By 2020, if there is still a separate charge for HD, then things have gone terribly wrong.

By 2020 today's best HD will be the bottom of the video totom pole, and we'll be paying extra charges for whatever the best quality will be called then, maybe SD (for Super Definition:lol: )

Carl

[fluffybear]

I have heard a Yes and No answer on this one.

People I have spoken with a DirecTV all have stated to me that the 'distants' will go to MPEG4 at years end and the remaining HD channels will go convert to MPEG4 in late 2008.

[Jeremy W]

People I have spoken with a DirecTV all have stated to me that the 'distants' will go to MPEG4 at years end and the remaining HD channels will go convert to MPEG4 in late 2008.
This is pretty accurate. The distants will definitely be the first to go.

[man_rob]

Here's another question, be it a bit speculative. Are the new SD boxes able to receive SD in mpeg4. In other words, is D* going to eventually move all programming, both SD and HD, away from mpeg2? I know if it was part of the plans to update the service, it would be down the road a bit, but wouldn't that free up even more bandwidth for even more content, and improved PQ in both formats?

[carl6]

None of the current (newest) SD receivers have mpeg4 capability. While that may happen eventually, it isn't a near term plan.

Carl

[wilbur_the_goose]

By 2020, if there is still a separate charge for HD, then things have gone terribly wrong.

Don't be surprised. Verizon in upstate NY still charges extra for that exciting new feature, "Touch Tone".

[Steve]

This is pretty accurate. The distants will definitely be the first to go.What's a distant? TIA. /s

[Alan Gordon]

What's a distant? TIA. /s

Distant Network Service (DNS). In other words, channels 80-89...

~Alan

[Steve]

Distant Network Service (DNS). In other words, channels 80-89...

~AlanGotcha. So for those not already getting CBS, NBC, FOX and ABC in MPEG-4, they will lose those at the end of the year, if they don't switch boxes? /s

[Titan25]

Yes...but the number of impacted customers will be small. You'd have to be a HD subscriber with a non-MPEG4 receiver AND live somewhere HD locals are not available. By the end of the year, less than 20% of the customer base won't have HD locals available. DirecTV could simply swap those customers all at once.

[Alan Gordon]

Gotcha. So for those not already getting CBS, NBC, FOX and ABC in MPEG-4, they will lose those at the end of the year, if they don't switch boxes? /s

Mr. Lennon...err, Titan25 already answered pretty well, but I'll elaborate a little.

When DirecTV first added the HD-DNS channels (80-89), the majority of the people receiving them were receiving them due to a deal DirecTV made with the channel's respective O&Os... which were, for the most part, larger cities... but with DirecTV now serving 70% of the population with HD-LIL, the number of people receiving the HD-DNS channels are probably quite small...

As I said earlier in this thread, an executive at DirecTV stated early last year (at CES or something) that DirecTV would start replacing HD-DNS customers with MPEG-4 boxes last year starting with the West Coast in Late Summer, and then moving on to the East Coast shortly thereafter, and I even heard of a person or two on the West Coast being contacted by DirecTV about swapping out the HD receiver (non-DVR) with a H20... but that's about it.

As a HD-DNS customer/viewer, I was already getting ready for the new Dish and receiver last year by going out and buying supplies for the new dish (a new pole that I was going install by myself, etc...) but after a couple of calls to DirecTV failed to get me a deal I was comfortable with (regarding the HR20) and no new information regarding the HD-DNS MPEG4 transition, I simply gave up.

However, one of the main reasons that DirecTV might have postponed the MPEG4 transition for the HD-DNS was probably the HR20 as the expected release date of the HR20 was "reported" to be released earlier last year than it was.

However, as I said above, with 70% (and growing) of the population receiving HD-LIL, the small number of HD-DNS customers to transition, and the amount of space (8 MPEG2 HD channels) they'd save by transitioning the HD-DNS customers to MPEG-4 equipment... makes the HD-DNS customers a no-brainer to be the first to switch-over (ST-HD subscribers would be the only other customer base to come close)...

~Alan

[Steve]

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative responses, guys! :) /s

[Drew2k]

Yes...but the number of impacted customers will be small. You'd have to be a HD subscriber with a non-MPEG4 receiver AND live somewhere HD locals are not available. By the end of the year, less than 20% of the customer base won't have HD locals available. DirecTV could simply swap those customers all at once.I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying: Any customer who :

1) Subscribes to HD
2) Has a non-MPEG4 receiver (like an HR10-250)
3) Has HD LIL available via MPEG4

These customers will lose MPEG2 HD DNS on channels 80-89?

[Jeremy W]

These customers will lose MPEG2 HD DNS on channels 80-89?
Yes, except it doesn't matter if they have HD-LIL available to them or not. When the cutoff occurs, the MPEG2 HD DNS channels will be moved to MPEG4, so if you've still got an old receiver, you'll lose them no matter what.

[Drew2k]

Yes, except it doesn't matter if they have HD-LIL available to them or not. When the cutoff occurs, the MPEG2 HD DNS channels will be moved to MPEG4, so if you've still got an old receiver, you'll lose them no matter what.OK, thanks. This has me a little worried now, because I wasn't planning on replacing my two HR10's until later this fall, because I thought I'd at least have until next spring to record the big-4 networks in HD on my HR10s. Now I'll have to hope that DirecTV offers a free/low-cost upgrade path from the HR10 to the HR20...

[Jeremy W]

Now I'll have to hope that DirecTV offers a free/low-cost upgrade path from the HR10 to the HR20...
They've been doing that all along, haven't they?

[Alan Gordon]

OK, thanks. This has me a little worried now, because I wasn't planning on replacing my two HR10's until later this fall, because I thought I'd at least have until next spring to record the big-4 networks in HD on my HR10s. Now I'll have to hope that DirecTV offers a free/low-cost upgrade path from the HR10 to the HR20...

DirecTV (Chase or one of the other bigwigs) has stated that HD-DNS customers will get a FREE "upgrade" to MPEG4 equipment.

Of course, a lot of people on these boards have managed to "upgrade" to the HR20 for free or for the price of shipping...

~Alan

[Drew2k]

They've been doing that all along, haven't they?Well, if you consider $299 either "free" or "low-cost", then yes. :p

I was lucky enough to get credits on my first HR20 that made the price neglible, but I doubt I would get any such credits to replace two HR10s and get two more HR20s.

[Drew2k]

DirecTV (Chase or one of the other bigwigs) has stated that HD-DNS customers will get a FREE "upgrade" to MPEG4 equipment.

Of course, a lot of people on these boards have managed to "upgrade" to the HR20 for free or for the price of shipping...

~AlanWell, I receive the HD-DNS channels, but does that make me a DNS customer? If so, I'd gladly pay the price of shipping to replace my HR10s ... :)

[Alan Gordon]

Well, I receive the HD-DNS channels, but does that make me a DNS customer? If so, I'd gladly pay the price of shipping to replace my HR10s ... :)

Chase (or whoever) said the reason why HD-DNS customers would get a free upgrade was because they would be "LOSING channels..." but that others might have to pay a small upgrade fee.

As you are in the NY DMA (I didn't notice that earlier), I'm not sure how it would be handled as those aren't really HD-DNS to you, but local channels (which are currently available to you in MPEG4 as well). However, you would be losing channels, so it could go either way.

If I were you, I would be trying to upgrade AT LEAST one of them now, and if you can only get one, I'd try the other one later once they start transitioning HD-DNS over and you would then have some more leverage. After reading the "deals" thread, you might be able to work out something reasonable... especially since you live in a city where HD-LIL is available...

~Alan

[Drew2k]

After reading the "deals" thread, you might be able to work out something reasonable... especially since you live in a city where HD-LIL is available...

~AlanMy first and only HR20 (for now) was obtained for almost nothing after I received many (many) credits ... and that was only four months ago, so I doubt I'd get any other deals soon. However, I may just call to inquire what the current offers are for HR10 to HR20 upgrades. Thanks.

[jlancaster]

Got a message from my HSP Halsted Comm saying that Sept.1 D* will change the way ALL hd channels are received and that I will need b band converters installed and please call 877-.....
Is this new? Anyone else getting these recorded messages?

[Alan Gordon]

My first and only HR20 (for now) was obtained for almost nothing after I received many (many) credits ... and that was only four months ago, so I doubt I'd get any other deals soon. However, I may just call to inquire what the current offers are for HR10 to HR20 upgrades. Thanks.

I've read several people on this board say they've gotten a 2nd (and 3rd) HR20 for squat not too long after another... I'd check... and be sure to mention your HD-LIL...

Hey jlancaster, is you avatar from "Fargo" or "Grumpy Old Men," I can't really tell?

~Alan

[harsh]

Got a message from my HSP Halsted Comm saying that Sept.1 D* will change the way ALL hd channels are received and that I will need b band converters installed and please call 877-.....
Is this new?This is not new. The need for BBCs was established when the 5LNB dishes were introduced. It was reiterated some time in the last month or so.

If they are not installed properly, there will be problems when the new HD channels come online.

[jlancaster]

I've read several people on this board say they've gotten a 2nd (and 3rd) HR20 for squat not too long after another... I'd check... and be sure to mention your HD-LIL...

Hey jlancaster, is you avatar from "Fargo" or "Grumpy Old Men," I can't really tell?

~Alan
Grumpy

[jlancaster]

This is not new. The need for BBCs was established when the 5LNB dishes were introduced. It was reiterated some time in the last month or so.

If they are not installed properly, there will be problems when the new HD channels come online.
Its not an issue with me as I have swm ...it was the reference to "the way all hd is received" that had me thinking ...we have no mpeg 4 here and I didn't think that it affected current hd channels just the new ones

[Jeremy W]

I didn't think that it affected current hd channels just the new ones
It doesn't, they're just simplifying the message.

[bigsurfing]

Distant Network Service (DNS). In other words, channels 80-89...

~Alan

Alan,

Those are (were - since they no longer come in) my local HD channels via directv. I live in Los Angeles - no need for waivers, etc.

Not a huge loss, as my over the air indoor antenna (little zenith thing) works like a charm, but that isn't relative to the directv situation.

-d