Sky Angel will NOT honor lifetime for IPTV

[quiverof8]

I received a letter from the vice president of SkyAngel, answering some of my questions which I will post below. I highly suggest you contact her yourself! Her email is
Nancy.Christopher@SkyAngel.com

They have also started to shut off lifetime peoples SKY ANGEL service if they did not return the letter signing up for the "special 4" at $4.99. It seems they "accidentally" shut off ALL your channels , not just the 4. then you have to phone and ultimately be told to WAIT 24 hours for service to be restored

1- When will DBS broadcasting be discontinued?
The transition to IPTV in the U.S. will occur over the next year, and more information will be provided about the transition during the coming months.

2-What happens to those who prepaid and don't have internet access or just can't afford to buy new equipment?
We will honor one's annual subscription for the duration of our satellite service. If there is any unused portion of the subscription once we cease satellite operations and are solely offering IPTV the subscriber will receive a pro-rated refund.

3- What about LIFETIME subscribers? Lifetime subscribers who don't have highspeed internet?
The terms of the lifelong subscription state that the subscription is for the life of the satellite delivery system. It is unfortunate that we have been unable to solicit the financial support to continue offering that service. We value our subscribers' support for our vision and will be communicating with our subscribers in the coming months about how they will be able to continue to receive high-quality Christian and family programming via Sky Angel.

4- Why aren't you continuing to broadcast BOTH DBS and IPTV?
With the loss of a satellite transponder last spring, and as our satellite continues to age, it has become increasingly evident that Sky Angel must embrace new cost-effective technology opportunities that will help us to further our vision to deliver the Gospel around the world. DBS is an extremely costly business, which makes it difficult for niche players such as Sky Angel to compete and grow in the DBS marketplace. IPTV will enable us to provide an overall service that is more economical than our current satellite system, while providing Sky Angel viewers more options and benefits. We believe that our subscribers will truly enjoy the interactive programming and other benefits resulting from the convergence of Internet and television.

Warm regards,

Nancy Christopher
VP, Corporate Communications
Sky Angel Television & Radio System

[Michael P]

3- What about LIFETIME subscribers? Lifetime subscribers who don't have highspeed internet?
The terms of the lifelong subscription state that the subscription is for the life of the satellite delivery system. It is unfortunate that we have been unable to solicit the financial support to continue offering that service. We value our subscribers' support for our vision and will be communicating with our subscribers in the coming months about how they will be able to continue to receive high-quality Christian and family programming via Sky Angel.


It appears to me that going IPTV is a way to dump us lifetimers. It's a shame that it's come to this, however when SA dumped Familyland they dumped the only reason I went lifetime with them to begin with!

[Michael P]

BTW: They never "lost" a transponder. Prior to the shutoff of the 3 Christian networks SA was on transponders 25 & 32. Today, sans the 3 channels they are still on transponders 25 & 32.

They may fool the average subscriber with this talk, however the real reason they "lost" the ability to carry the 3 networks stems directly from their decision to carry the "secular" channels and E* playing hardball whit them after they dragged E* into court over Daystar and Familynet.

[sansha]

It appears to me that going IPTV is a way to dump us lifetimers. It's a shame that it's come to this, however when SA dumped Familyland they dumped the only reason I went lifetime with them to begin with!

I can't imagine why they'd want to dump their lifetime subbers and what they can possibly hope to gain from it. It seems to me they should start up the accounts of the lifetimers in IPTV, whether they choose to buy a receiver or not. What would that cost them, just turning them on? Surely their lifetime subbers deserve not to be left behind. Whether people choose to use the servive, or get broadband, or buy a receiver is the subscriber's choice, but I can't see what sky angel gains by kicking off its lifetime subbers except a lot of ill will -- and however they want to "parse" their agreement -- the reputation of a welching company.

Interesting if they are also lying about the transponders. They keep saying 61.5 is aging and dying, but E* still seems interested in it enough to put its HD programming on it and file for use of the transponders. What does that say about sky angel's honesty, if they are twisting the truth on these points to get out of their side of the deal?

[James Long]

It appears to me that going IPTV is a way to dump us lifetimers.Other than the secular channels, lifetime subscribers should not cost SkyAngel very much at all. They may have to pay a maintenance fee to E* to keep the receiver activation records (since they decided to let E* handle activations instead of having their own system). But SkyAngel's religious channels do not operate on a per subscriber cost.

As much as I dislike SkyAngel's business practices (a subject for another thread) I do not believe they would dump satellite just to annoy people and hope that they would buy $120 worth of equipment (per room) and subscribe to a $25 per month programming package. If they could keep satellite going they would ... but that takes serious money that SkyAngel never had.

BTW: They never "lost" a transponder. Prior to the shutoff of the 3 Christian networks SA was on transponders 25 & 32. Today, sans the 3 channels they are still on transponders 25 & 32.Yep ... but what transponder are they on? We refer to transponders by what we see ... a channel number that relates to a specific frequency in the DBS band. But there are more transponders on the satellite than licensed channels. Some redundancy is built in.

E3 @ 61.5 was set up to cover 32 transponder channels with 44 physical transponders. Prior to 2006 (per their annual report) E* lost 22 transponders on E3 ... in April and October 2006 E* lost four more - they have 18 transponders left but due to WHICH transponders are left they can only cover 15 of the 19 transponder channels that E3 should be serving.

So when they say a transponder was lost they are right (although it is only "their" transponder through the lease deal with E*).

They may fool the average subscriber with this talk, however the real reason they "lost" the ability to carry the 3 networks stems directly from their decision to carry the "secular" channels and E* playing hardball whit them after they dragged E* into court over Daystar and Familynet.A decent guess and probably not far off. It is likely that E* would not be as happy to keep SA on the air after the lawsuits and addition of secular channels ... noting that E* controls the uplink so they know full well that SA put those four channels up because E* did the deed.

SkyAngel wants to be a 32 channel service but they are on a satellite that is 21% disabled. They didn't lose any audio services (the 16 audios taking up the space of four video channels) so in essence they had room for 20 video channels ... a 21% reduction in capacity to match E*'s diminishing satellite works out to losing four video channels. SA only lost three. It looks like E* was being nice to SA waiting for one of the two transponders actually used by SA to fail and then letting them decide which three channels they were willing to lose.

SA is on a satellite that can only cover 79% of it's assigned transponders and is actually down to 40% of it's designed capacity. If it were not for E*'s purchase of R1 (E12) the 79% would be closer to the 40%. E3 is failing ... SA signed a deal with E* for the life of that satellite ... life is almost over for E3.

We can complain about E* reducing the capacity but it was fair warning that DBS providers NEED to own DBS satellites. A challenge SA never met.

[James Long]

It seems to me they should start up the accounts of the lifetimers in IPTV, whether they choose to buy a receiver or not. What would that cost them, just turning them on?If it were up to me I'd offer "lifetime" subscriptions to IPTV to the "lifetime" DBS subscribers ... perhaps even selling "lifetime" IPTV subscriptions as an introductory offer. The cost of the receiver would be up to the subscriber.

The receivers cost real money ... allowing another subscriber to access the IPTV server not so much money. Meeting people halfway would be good.

Interesting if they are also lying about the transponders. They keep saying 61.5 is aging and dying, but E* still seems interested in it enough to put its HD programming on it and file for use of the transponders. What does that say about sky angel's honesty, if they are twisting the truth on these points to get out of their side of the deal?I don't believe SA is lying ... although referring to a satellite they lease space on as if it were their own is a stretch of truth. E* is placing HD on another satellite at 61.5° - E12 purchased from Cablevision/Rainbow DBS/Voom. And be sure that they are planning a replacement for E3 --- one that does not include SkyAngel.

[quiverof8]

Lying or not SA is saying the "lost" transponders. they are also saying 1)lifetime was for lifetime of SATELLITE not satellite and subscriber and surviving spouse as agreement states. 2)they will NOT honor lifetimes for IPTV!

they got all the $ they could from monthly subscribers. We serve no useful purpose to them unless they can find a way to get cash from us.

this all comes down to $! Getting more $ from lifetime, getting $ for selling those "bad" satellites etc

It appears the canadians are paying $25/month for the "privilege" of viewing sky angel via IPTV! sky angel stayed at $9.99 for years then quickly jumped from $11.99 to $14.99. IPTV will make it jump yet again.

What next we buy all new equipment and then have yet another price increase?

the fact which proves their deceit is that there is no "special vs basic " package for monthly subscribers. furthermore they will NOT let monthly subscribers opt out of the "special secular 4". Believe it or not there are some christians who never wanted/do not want the secular channels. they added them and THEN increased the price!

How can they justify taking the channels away ONLY from lifetime members after we have had them for almost 1 1/2 years!

[James Long]

SkyAngel made several bad marketing decisions ... the description of "lifetime" was one of them. Based on the many quotes here it appears that "lifetime" changed several times ... it all depends on when your life began.

Expecting "lifetime" to extend beyond the life of the service is a stretch. I'd love to read a full copy of the service agreement back when "lifetime" was offered. I'd bet that it only refers to the SkyAngel satellite service (since IPTV was not an option).

It would be good marketing to continue "lifetime" subscriptions via IPTV ... especially with the new features. GOOD word of mouth from subscribers would be an excellent way to promote the new system. As opposed to what is happening here.

When the masses of SkyAngel subscribers find out what we know on the forums ... that SkyAngel is ceasing satellite delivery and will offer only IPTV service ... I hope SkyAngel has more answers. For now very few of their subscribers know anything about the change and are blissfully ignorant. They can find out more if they are surfing SkyAngel.com but not much more.

IMHO: Creating the four special channels was a mistake. Either they should have ALWAYS been a separate program offering or they should remain free to "lifetime" subscribers. It was a failure to look ahead that got SkyAngel into this situation. Giving away subscription channels that they have to pay rights for as if they were free? Bad management.

I'm drifting into an anti-SkyAngel rant again ... so I'll step back. :)

SkyAngel still has potential ... just not the same potential as they promised.

[quiverof8]

I have recommended Sky angel for years. In the past few months I have found myself in the position of suggesting people do not subscribe. I had given out DVDs and packets of info but no longer feel confident enough in sky angel to tell people about sky angel.

Unfortunately most if not all internet posts about sky Angel are negative. Even those who feel the IPTV may be a good long term option feel that sky angel should also broadcast via satellite as long as it is functioning and/or offer to switch lifetimers to IPTV.

Sky Angel is picking and choosing which parts of the "lifetime agreement to honor. they like the part about DBS satellite so they say the "lifetime of the satellite"(satellite is still working) however there are a few key points they ignore such as LIFETIME of subscriber/spouse, sky angel will launch NEW SATELLITE in 2002 and sky angel will offer programming using DISH BRAND EQUIPMENT

[sansha]

Sky angel has an interesting view of "lifetime". I was expecting Sky angel to honor those subs as long as they were in business and the E 61.5 was still working. If 61.5 had fallen out of the sky that would be one thing. But to switch to IPTV when the sat is still functioning for e* and not add the lifetime subbers to IPTV to me seems mean spirited. I'm very dissapointed.

I don't expect them to give us equipment/receivers. But I'd be willing to purchase the receiver after trying IPTV over my existing broadband via computer for awhile and seeing if it degraded it too much.

If they don't bring along the lifetime subbers to IPTV, I don't expect to continue with them. I have some doubts if they'd stay in business with this move - it seems very expensive to consumers. But at least they'd made some $$ off the receiver purchases by lifetime subbers.

They can't honestly expect many if any of the lifetime subbers to follow them if they turn us off completely without good reason -- expect us to buy their equipment and pay monthly fees? Having been faithful enough to pay a large fee upfront and been kicked out, do they expect us to come around again? A dog might do that but not people. They haven't even notified us yet. I sent in a request for more info weeks ago, and have never been contacted. But everything I've heard from others says that they are refusing to honor their lifetime subbers.

What kind of business model is this? How can you toss out the part of your customer base that was willing to pay upfront to help get the business off the ground. I understood at the time it was a gamble. If sky angel had folded that would be one thing, and I'd have understood. Though I hadn't expected it. With the strong religious base in this country, I'd expected it to take off with reasonable management. And as for management, to leave behind their lifetime subbers just becaues they refuse to add them to IPTV seems really unsound. Who would trust them now to make any kind of committment to them?

I'll more likely explore glorystar. Seems to offer many similar channels, with the perks of perhaps seeing other secular channels not available on dish and their one room system is 199$ for receiver and 36 " dish with no monthly fees. $350 with installation. It looks very tempting. Anyone tried it yet? I looked at it a bit but haven't found much detail about how it works -- or who they are or how they can afford to offer so many channels with no fees at all.

[James Long]

There are lifetime subs that have looked at the big picture ... they paid X dollars and got Y years of service ... and X divided by Y was a bargain. SkyAngel stopped selling the "lifetime" subscriptions a few years ago ... only the final signups would be possibly have paid more for "lifetime" than if they just bought and renewed an annual subscription.

The "lifetime" contract allows you to use the SkyAngel DBS service for the rest of your life or the life of the surviving spouse. Within the next year there will be no more SkyAngel DBS service. If you can find in the contract where they agreed to provide channels beyond the life of the satellite feel free to scan and post and image of the contract.

E3 is at end of life ... at last report it was 60% disabled and able to cover only 79% of it's assignment. It is on it's deathbed. At least SkyAngel didn't wait until it died to make other plans.

[gary_zw]

I'll more likely explore glorystar. Seems to offer many similar channels, with the perks of perhaps seeing other secular channels not available on dish and their one room system is 199$ for receiver and 36 " dish with no monthly fees. $350 with installation. It looks very tempting. Anyone tried it yet? I looked at it a bit but haven't found much detail about how it works -- or who they are or how they can afford to offer so many channels with no fees at all.

Glorystar is very good. Well worth the investment... also it is very easy to install, many people install it themselves and save the installation fee. My Glorystar System is an old Primestar Dish with 2 LNB's strapped together and a Traxis 3500 receiver. Right now you get a little over 40 channels with Glorystar and they will be adding more soon and there are more Channels that you get that are not part of Glorystar, such as news, movie and music Channels... all with no monthly fee. I highly recommend Glorystar. I have had my system up for about 4 months now and very happy with it.

[quiverof8]

IPTV wasn't even invented at the time the lifetime subs were sold! It would indeed be one thing if the satellite had fallen from the sky but it is still working. sky Angel didn't live up to their end of the contract by not launching the new satellite. they even specified a year 2002!

sky angel is not going out of business they just want to switch to IPTV. therefore it would be the "right" thing to continue those lifetime subscribers with IPTV for those who can even access it!

I am sure there are others like ourselves who are on a fixed income, disabled etc. that was why the lifetime was such a good buy. sky angel is our only TV unlike some who may have DISH, cable etc. Losing our lifetime DBS will be a major loss to us one not easily replaced due to financial reasons

I am looking into gloryStar or Possibly dish family package as it will use the equipment I already own. At least we have a year (I hope) to figure this out and save for new equipment

Unless Sky angel changes their mind they have stated lifetime ends with the end of DBS! there were also people who bought 10 years subs that have at least 2 years minimum left! Sky Angel math is going to prorate them on a monthly basis at full price (current $14.99 so they end up with no $ back.

don't take my work for any of this contact the VP yourself!
her info is below:

Nancy.Christopher@SkyAngel.com
Nancy Christopher
Sky Angel
PO Box 7609
Naples, FL 34101

[James Long]

That is the second time you have posted that address and contact info and that is enough. We don't run campaigns against companies here at DBSTalk. We can openly discuss their shortcomings, but please ... no causes!

As far as Ms. Christopher, her login has been used to visit DBSTalk within the past month ... she is welcome to answer any questions in any thread that she wishes to participate in ... considering the response to her last posts (in 2004) I do not expect a reply.

Anyone who can provide a clean copy of the "lifetime" agreement is encouraged to post it.

[quiverof8]

I certainly did not mean to upset anyone. It seemed by the questions that some had not read my earlier post regarding Nancy's reply which is why I posted again. I was trying to be fair to Sky Angel by letting people get answers for themselves. You should never take anyones word for something online without verifying it yourself.

If people email Nancy at least they get an answer rather than a generic Sky Angel form letter sent out by customer service.

IPTV is not a viable option for many due to the availability and cost of high speed internet.

I did find it interesting that you mention Nancy is lurking rather than posting. Any and all I have posted here I have already said to her myself. There was some question on another board as to "lurking" sky angel staff, at least we know they are reading our comments.

At what point does this become a "campaign/cause" rather than a discussion? its not as if I was suggesting a picket line at SA headquarters. Could you please explain your guidelines?

If I have a "cause" then I guess it is maintaining continued SA service for a legally disabled man and his family of 8 children. Is that so wrong?

[James Long]

We don't do petitions and class action suits ... and anything that approaches from that perspective. The "everybody get together and let's change this" attitude. We trust that you have given us the information you have (and have given us no reason to doubt the veracity) so contacting Ms. Christopher isn't needed to verify what you have said.

That being said, Ms. Christopher has presented herself as the voice of SkyAngel and I consider her to be in the same position as those who answer the "ceo" mail for Dish Network ... so giving out her email address will be allowed (we normally redact contact information for people within the satellite companies).

But a couple of mentions should be enough unless you are starting a grass roots effort that we just don't do here. :)

If you have any more questions on the matter please send a private message (PM).
:backtotop

[aegrotatio]

Glorystar is very good. Well worth the investment... also it is very easy to install, many people install it themselves and save the installation fee. My Glorystar System is an old Primestar Dish with 2 LNB's strapped together and a Traxis 3500 receiver. Right now you get a little over 40 channels with Glorystar and they will be adding more soon and there are more Channels that you get that are not part of Glorystar, such as news, movie and music Channels... all with no monthly fee. I highly recommend Glorystar. I have had my system up for about 4 months now and very happy with it.

I have the the Glorystar/SatelliteAV dual-LNBF antenna kit and can attest to you that it is an excellent investment, and really inexpensive for what you get.
The 39" dish (mine is the black matte finish version), LNBF-bracket, pre-assembled dual-cable assembly, super-miniature LNBFs, and miniature DiSeQ switch are great.

Plus you get on The Hope Channel mailing list (though nowhere in the letters I get tell me what freq/tp to use, but the Glorystar systems have it programmed already).

There are more channels on G-25/AMC-4 than you can ever want.
I can say nothing but great things about Glorystar and SatelliteAV.

You won't need Sky Angel anymore.

[Michael P]

So are all the Glorystar networks FTA? Can any FTA receiver with proper dish & LNB receive the service?

[quiverof8]

glorystar is FTA. what makes it unique is that it comes to you preset with ONLY Christian channels. No worry about receiving something inappropriate for your family. of course you can override it and receive other FTA channels. No scanning or manually entering channels if I understand the info they gave me correctly :)

[FTA Michael]

Another uncommon feature is that Glorystar uses a special larger dish with a custom mount for a pair of LNBFs to let viewers watch Galaxy 25 and AMC 4 without a motor. Great idea! And if Glorystar gives good support to new FTA viewers, that would be nice too.

But if you install a motor on a vanilla FTA system, you can get all of the stations that Glorystar promotes plus classic movies (White Springs), classic TV shows (RTN), some sports, Gospel Broadcasting Network and a Harold Camping TV station (AMC 6), and more.

[sansha]

There are lifetime subs that have looked at the big picture ... they paid X dollars and got Y years of service ... and X divided by Y was a bargain. SkyAngel stopped selling the "lifetime" subscriptions a few years ago ... only the final signups would be possibly have paid more for "lifetime" than if they just bought and renewed an annual subscription.

The "lifetime" contract allows you to use the SkyAngel DBS service for the rest of your life or the life of the surviving spouse. Within the next year there will be no more SkyAngel DBS service. If you can find in the contract where they agreed to provide channels beyond the life of the satellite feel free to scan and post and image of the contract.

E3 is at end of life ... at last report it was 60% disabled and able to cover only 79% of it's assignment. It is on it's deathbed. At least SkyAngel didn't wait until it died to make other plans.



You say "lifetime" as if it were some questionable term the subscribers are trying to twist. The subscribers didn't make that term. SkyAngel did. If they didn't want to characterize it as lifetime, or for the customer to take it as that, they should not have called it that.

As for whether the subscribers got their $$ worth if they had paid regular rates, some did, some didn't. But that's not the point. Subscribers paid up front, (and when I joined it was i think $5 a month) so that Sky Angel could use our $$ to build their DBS distribution system.

Sky Angel isn't going out of business. Nor is the satellite dead. They are just selling the transponders to get into the IPTV business here in the US. And leaving the customer base high and dry who supported them to deliver by DBS.

They ought to at the very least sign up the lifetime subbers to IPTV AS LONG AS E3 is functioning for E*. IMHO, they ought to sign them up permanently, but the the former would be the minimum they ought to do. Even that wouldn't do much good for most people, but it would at least be an attempt to make some kind of restitution for what they were contractually supposed to provide by DBS.

As for Skyangel not waiting till E3 died, for those people who have no ability to get broadband, or find it too expensive, or who are lifetime subbers who Sky angel is apparently dumping, it would have been far better for all those people -- I'm suspecting the majority of their subscribers -- if they had waited till E3 had died. At least the customers would have received their contracted service until that point. And at least Sky angel would have fulfilled the terms of that contract. The reason Sky angel is not doing that is that presumably they want the money from the transponder sale. Interesting that to Skyangel E3 is always dead when they talk to their customers, but not dead when they sell the transponders to E* or talk to the FCC.

Truthfully it sounds damn immoral to me, to take money on a contract to deliver one thing, and then dump those people and what they funded and sell it and take those funds to fund another project. When you raise money, you're supposed to spend it on what it was solicited for. When you sell a service, you are supposed to provide it, not say, oh, I think I can make more $$ here, so let me sell that and buy something else and charge you again for what you already bought.

Whether that is illegal or not is for lawyers to decide,and the customer never wins in those things. But for the ordinary person, who was sold a lifetime sub for a satellite as long as the satellite was up there and Sky angel was in business, that customer has a right to feel taken. There is no more DBS service not because E3 is dead but only because Sky angel CHOSE NOT TO PROVIDE IT. Because they chose to welch on their contracts, sell what was needed to deliver on them, take the money and run to set up another venue. Not because E3 is dead or they are out of business.

It seems from your email you are trying to paint the *subscriber* as greedy, trying to get more than their subscription was supposed to pay for and sky angel as being honorable in trying to find other alternatives. It's bad enough to be welched on by sky angel -- and even worse that they haven't even told their customers yet. If Sky Angel execs are lurking on the board, it's disgraceful they haven't spoken up to answer some of the questions and concerns posted here by customers whose funds help build their company and pay their salaries. And if customers are upset, and sky angel execs were treated badly here in the past, perhaps the blame should be put squarely where it belongs and the execs deserved it.

Trying to turn the blame and the guilt on the wronged consumer, trying to paint the lifetime subscriber as greedy, rather than the company that is selling Peter to buy Paul, may work on some, but it just doesn't work on me.

[sansha]

That is the second time you have posted that address and contact info and that is enough. We don't run campaigns against companies here at DBSTalk. We can openly discuss their shortcomings, but please ... no causes!

As far as Ms. Christopher, her login has been used to visit DBSTalk within the past month ... she is welcome to answer any questions in any thread that she wishes to participate in ... considering the response to her last posts (in 2004) I do not expect a reply.

Anyone who can provide a clean copy of the "lifetime" agreement is encouraged to post it.

Gee, how many times have I seen ceo@echostar.com posted as an email to send with questions or complaints, without anyone's fingers ever getting rapped for doing it. You seem awfully protective of SkyAngel. Why are they regarded as -- dare I say it -- sacrosanct?

So sorry that Ms. Christopher is content to lurk and unwilling to address her subscriber's concerns. She doesn't have to address them here, but they ought to be addressed somewhere. I posted a question on their website weeks ago without any reply. As for the alleged drubbing she supposedly got in 2004, she is an adult, presumably a corp exec, and ought to be able to handle the heat her company has created for itself.

[James Long]

Interesting that to Skyangel E3 is always dead when they talk to their customers, but not dead when they sell the transponders to E* or talk to the FCC.SkyAngel is not selling E3 or transponders on E3. They can't. SkyAngel owns no transponders to sell ... so they have made NO SUCH REPRESENTATION to the FCC. The request of the FCC is not to transfer ownership of E3, it is for the transfer of the LICENSES SkyAngel owns at 61.5°. Licenses that are useless unless one has a working satellite to broadcast on.

Trying to turn the blame and the guilt on the wronged consumer, trying to paint the lifetime subscriber as greedy, rather than the company that is selling Peter to buy Paul, may work on some, but it just doesn't work on me.That is not my intent (although I still would like to see the contract instead of representations of what people believe it said). I don't see "lifetime" (as a defined category) subscribers as greedy ... I was just point out that MANY feel that their money was well spent.

As far as personal feelings toward SkyAngel for whether or not those subscribers got ripped off or not, I believe those who are less annoyed saw their "lifetime" subscriptions as a gift for the ministry's benefit and those who remain annoyed saw their subscription as buying something for their own benefit.

Gee, how many times have I seen ceo@echostar.com posted as an email to send with questions or complaints, without anyone's fingers ever getting rapped for doing it. You seem awfully protective of SkyAngel. Why are they regarded as -- dare I say it -- sacrosanct?The ceo address is not anyone's personal address. It is a department within the company that handles complaints.

It is the personal addresses and internal phone numbers that are delt with ... in all forums. No special protection of SkyAngel. Just forum policy.

[sansha]

SkyAngel is not selling E3 or transponders on E3. They can't. SkyAngel owns no transponders to sell ... so they have made NO SUCH REPRESENTATION to the FCC. The request of the FCC is not to transfer ownership of E3, it is for the transfer of the LICENSES SkyAngel owns at 61.5°. Licenses that are useless unless one has a working satellite to broadcast on.

That is not my intent (although I still would like to see the contract instead of representations of what people believe it said). I don't see "lifetime" (as a defined category) subscribers as greedy ... I was just point out that MANY feel that their money was well spent.

As far as personal feelings toward SkyAngel for whether or not those subscribers got ripped off or not, I believe those who are less annoyed saw their "lifetime" subscriptions as a gift for the ministry's benefit and those who remain annoyed saw their subscription as buying something for their own benefit.

The ceo address is not anyone's personal address. It is a department within the company that handles complaints.

It is the personal addresses and internal phone numbers that are delt with ... in all forums. No special protection of SkyAngel. Just forum policy.


So you're saying that Sky Angel is letting E* acquire the transponder licenses for free? I doubt that. That's the point, not splitting hairs over whether I used the sbortcut transponder or the full transponder license in a post. And E3 is still working. I'm so tired of hearing sky angel claim that E3 isn't working. I get the HD package on 61.5 as well as many public interest channels on 61.5 and E3 is still working just fine -- otherwise skyangel would have nothing to sell back to e*. Yes it is getting some age on it and will eventually fail. But in fact when I got the lifetime membership Sky Angel said E3 had a lifetime of 12-14 years and had transponders reserved for backups. And that they also would be transferring their DBS business to a new satellite before the end of E3's working life. Nothing about the lifetime subscriptions ending with E3 or before E3. The deal was that the subscription was a lifetime one.

Interesting how you want to split hairs on everything else but when it comes down to what Sky angel was contracted to deliver, when the hair splitting doesn't work, you say the subscription should now be regarded as a gift and not a fee for services due.

The email address previously listed was not a personal/home email -- it was a sky angel business address. I don't see where the stricture applies.

I don't care all that much about sky angel. I'm waiting for the coolsat 8100 before I get an FTA setup. But I just find this whole situation of Sky angel dumping their lifetime subbers reprehensible. And even more disgusting the wordsmithing trying to parse out some moral high ground for them to justify it. The honorable thing to do is to meet their existing commitments however they can, instead of welching on them, selling everythign they can, taking the funds and running to set up a new production company.

[James Long]

So you're saying that Sky Angel is letting E* acquire the transponder licenses for free?No. I'm saying that your claim that SkyAngel is selling transponders on E3 is false. I'm saying that your claim that SkyAngel has made different representations to the public and the FCC is false.

Financial details were not disclosed on how much or even IF SkyAngel is being paid for the licenses.And E3 is still working. I'm so tired of hearing sky angel claim that E3 isn't working.E3 is working for the moment. It will not be working much longer - a couple of years but it honestly is NOT at full strength and if it were not for E*'s purchase of R1 E* would be in more serious trouble.I get the HD package on 61.5 as well as many public interest channels on 61.5 and E3 is still working just fine -- otherwise skyangel would have nothing to sell back to e*.The HD package at 61.5 is not on E3. Want to try that statement again?Yes it is getting some age on it and will eventually fail. But in fact when I got the lifetime membership Sky Angel said E3 had a lifetime of 12-14 years and had transponders reserved for backups.Was that in 1996? 1997? The situation has changed. HALF of the transponders on E3 died before 2006. E3 started out with 44 and lost 22 prior to 2006. With the additional failures in 2006 E3 is down to 40% --- Thanks to the redundancy and R1/E12 E3 can cover 79% of it's assignment with only 40% of it's initial capacity. E3 is failing.And that they also would be transferring their DBS business to a new satellite before the end of E3's working life. Nothing about the lifetime subscriptions ending with E3 or before E3. The deal was that the subscription was a lifetime one.Got that in print? I've asked too many times to ask again.The email address previously listed was not a personal/home email -- it was a sky angel business address. I don't see where the stricture applies.Personal addresses at work are normally not permitted. If you have nay more questions send a PM ... that is forum business and I'm not here to debate that in public. I've already explained it enough.

[Michael P]

I get the HD package on 61.5 as well as many public interest channels on 61.5 and E3 is still working just fine -- otherwise sky angel would have nothing to sell back to e*.
You don't understand the concept of a license? You can have a valid driver's license but not own a car. Someone in that circumstance could lease or rent a car, and that's just what Sky Angel is doing. If E3 fell out of the sky tomorrow, Sky Angel's licenses at 61.5 would still be worth the same as they are today. The licenses at 61.5 could be used on the former Rainbow satellite by E*, but not by SA unless SA and E* come to a new agreement. The current agreement between SA and E* ends when E3 dies. At that time all SA will have are the licenses but no satellite to use them.

[quiverof8]

Sky Angel is picking and choosing which parts of the LIFETIME agreement they want to honor. for example they frequently quote "LlIFETIME of SATELLITE" while they IGNORE several key points such as LAUNCHING satellite in 2002, SUBSCRIBER/SPOUSE lifetime etc. I agree with you, the ministry would hav been better served by either launching a new satellite as promised or at least continuing to broadcast on DBS for the REAL life of the satellite (it is still working!)

if you go back through old press releases you find lots of tidbits of info!


The following brings up a point that may have a more wide spread affect. what happens to these ministries? the prisons, hospitals etc who now get DBS?

This lifted from an SA news release in 2004, note that lifetime subscribers are not mentioned they may indeed have came as a surprise to Rob.


---Quote---
Dominion appreciates the wide support from within the Christian community during this extremely trying time. The mission and purpose of Sky Angel is to develop a worldwide multi-channel, high-power direct broadcast satellite broadcasting system for spreading the Gospel free of secular control, as distinct from every other commercial-secular cable or satellite system. Because Sky Angel exists, families can receive wholesome, Christ-centered programming without being forced to receive in their homes or to support television programming that is hostile to or in conflict with their Christian values. Sky Angel also serves as a valuable evangelistic tool with the multi-channel service being delivered, in some cases at no charge, into prisons, homeless shelters, substance abuse facilities, hospitals, nursing homes, colleges and more; Sky Angel’s Angel One channel, with a special emphasis on carrying a variety of ministries, large and small, that are focused on evangelizing and ministering to lost and hurting people, is also available free of charge on the DISH Network.

As the only Christian organization in the world licensed by any government to operate a high-power satellite system, Sky Angel is a valuable tool for the Church to move in unity, to evangelize the lost, and to equip the body of Christ to fulfill the Great Commission, so it is essential to defend and protect the vision given for Sky Angel by holding accountable those who try to bring harm to this ministry.

Dominion will continue to press forward with its plans to provide the Gospel to every nation in the world through a Christian-owned and -controlled satellite television delivery system in obedience to the vision the Lord gave for the Sky Angel ministry 24 years ago.

SKY ANGEL MISSION AND PURPOSE
From the very beginning, 24 years ago, when God placed a call on Robert W. Johnson Sr.'s life to create what today remains the world's only Christian Direct Broadcast Satellite “DBS” platform, our mission has never changed. Through the Lord's revelation, we knew then as we know today that the only method of assuring that the Gospel could be spread to the entire world — uninterrupted and unimpeded by geographic barriers, land lines and cables, and ever-changing, often hostile political boundaries — was via high-powered, wireless deep-space satellites owned and controlled by Christians totally committed to exclusively using this technology as a true instrument of helping to fulfill the "Great Commission." The satellite itself is then the platform — the "Angel in the Sky" — for the ministers, preachers and teachers of our age to first reach and disciple America and then to reach the most unreachable of God's lost children in the world.

There are only four DBS satellite services in America today: Sky Angel, DirecTV, DISH Network, and Voom Network. Sky Angel is the only one devoted exclusively to airing Christian and wholesome family television and radio programming. As the only Christian-owned and -controlled satellite television and radio platform licensed by the government in the world, we are able today to beam 20 television channels and 16 radio channels of Christian programming 24 hours a day across North America.

We do this all for our programmers by providing no-cost DBS airtime and for the body of Christ where individual homes, churches, businesses and more pay a modest monthly or annual subscription fee to help support, strengthen and grow the Sky Angel system. When we go international, many Sky Angel's radio and television signals will be "free-to-air" overseas utilizing a very low-cost DBS receiving system and small dish so that those who have never had the benefit of receiving Christ-centered TV or radio programming will be able to in even the most unreachable areas of the world.

Presently, Sky Angel's powerful television and radio signals are capable of being received virtually anywhere in North America. It would be impossible today for any Christian ministry to acquire enough television stations or cable systems capable of reaching the entire U.S. population. This impossibility has been overcome by Sky Angel's multi-channel television and radio channel signals that now cover virtually all of North America.

We're excited! We're humbled by the opportunity ahead. And we rejoice in being able to share this great endeavor with those who have been called and anointed to spread God's Word and use this remarkable technology that He has placed in our hands.

Therefore, protecting this God-ordained project from those who may be blinded to God's ordained scope, mission and purpose for Sky Angel, and who would bring it harm willingly or unwillingly, is the only reason this lawsuit was filed against EchoStar.
---End Quote---

[James Long]

Probably not fair to go too far back (they are all labeled "ARCHIVED PRESS RELEASE. THIS PRESS RELEASE MAY CONTAIN DATED INFORMATION THAT IS NO LONGER ACCURATE OR CURRENT.") but anyways:June 1, 2002
Because the Lord has established SKY ANGEL, Christian religious broadcasters will always have a satellite communications platform just for their programming that virtually any home, business, church, or school in the U.S. can access with just a small 18-inch satellite dish. Also, the 33 Christ-centered television and radio channel programmers that Sky Angel carries all receive no-cost air time on SKY ANGEL, allowing them to put the tithes and offerings given to them into producing more targeted programs that will reach larger audiences with the Gospel.
source (http://www.skyangel.com/About/Media.asp?IdS=00123E-54FFCF0&id=41)What the Lord giveth, Jr giveth away?August 14, 2003
Dominion Video Satellite, Inc., owner and operator of the Sky Angel nationwide direct-to-home Christ-centered satellite television service, has officially taken ownership of 23 acres off Interstate 75, northeast of the intersection of CR 951 and Davis Blvd. in Collier County, Florida, where it plans to construct its permanent uplink facility and international headquarter offices.

The project will be constructed in three phases. Construction of Phase I, which will comprise the company’s 47,000-square-foot technical center and transmission and receiving satellite dish antennas, is scheduled to commence the first half of 2004. Phase II will consist of two 15,000-square-foot studios, a 20,000-square-foot reception facility and 125,000 square feet of administrative offices. Phase III will comprise a 50,000-square-foot international programmer lodging facility and a 30,000-square-foot convention center.
source (http://www.skyangel.com/About/Media.asp?IdS=00123E-54FFCF0&id=57)Plans that have not quite made it to reality. I don't see an uplink center there ... Arial Photo (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.156641,-81.684325&z=17&hl=en&t=h)

Life changes. They did start construction on an uplink, but it is in Cleveland, TN (probably better weather there).
http://www.skyangel.com/About/Media.asp?IdS=00123E-54FFCF0&id=119

[quiverof8]

June 1, 2002
Because the Lord has established SKY ANGEL, Christian religious broadcasters will always have a satellite communications platform just for their programming that virtually any home, business, church, or school in the U.S. can access with just a small 18-inch satellite dish.

so what, did the LORD change his mind here or is sky angel no longer following the Lords leading?

[James Long]

There should have been a big caveat on that "virtually every home" statement ... since 61.5° is not easy to get from the west coast and many homes (such as apartments and city folk) have a hard time seeing satellite signals at all.

When I see statements like that I imagine God saying "why are you dragging me into this?" Robert W. Johnson established Sky Angel, and Jr is unestablishing it (as a satellite service). God seems to have had a minor role as a marketing tool and occasional subject matter for the channels.

If the Lord established Sky Angel why didn't He provide them with an angel in the sky ... a satellite of their own ... and enough funds that they could operate like Glorystar --- Free-to-air delivery to everyone who could see the satellite instead of a paid service to "customers" within the US. DBS was a good choice for signal strength and dish size issues, but "by subscription" is not the way to spread the gospel. It is like taking the offering at the front door of the church and turning away those who don't make a donation.

So the Lord establishing Sky Angel is just so much "Lord speak" ... where those who call themselves Christians (as opposed to those who are called Christians by others) invoke God to make their efforts appear to be more important than they are.

[abesbirthday]

The "lifetime" contract allows you to use the SkyAngel DBS service for the rest of your life or the life of the surviving spouse. Within the next year there will be no more SkyAngel DBS service. If you can find in the contract where they agreed to provide channels beyond the life of the satellite feel free to scan and post an image of the contract.


This is my first post so I'm not familiar with all that's been being said about SA. What I have to say may be irrelevant and if so, sorry about that. What I'd like to say is that I called SA earlier this week and asked if as a Lifetime subscriber, would my subscription be valid with the upcoming new method of Internet delivery. Of course I was told it would not. I then asked if SA would send me a copy of my contract. The lady said she couldn't promise SA could do that but she did take down my name and address....although I'm not holding my breath until I get it because it didn't sound real hopeful that I'd be getting a copy.
Well, guess what? Later that evening I happened to be looking through an old folder in my desk and found the "terms and conditions of the lifetime subscription" and as best as I can tell it does NOT say for the lifetime of the satellite itself, but for the lifetime of Dominion Sky Angel. Unless SA goes out of business and/or changes their name, it seems as though my lifetime subscription should be valid regardless of how I receive SA programming. I'm attaching a copy of the "Terms & Conditions" as a pdf file. Am I mistaken in my interpretation?

[quiverof8]

You may have just hit the jackpot for yourself and other lifetime members. the problem has been that most lifetime members do not even have a copy of the agreement. If they signed up on the phone SA never sent them. also there are several different versions floating around. I don't think sky angel has copies of who signed what. I went all the way to the VP and asked for a copy of my agreement which she refused to send. Instead she told me to send her what I had............

Of course, skyangel will probably get around this as well by a name change or something :( thanks for posting the info!

[abesbirthday]

I went all the way to the VP and asked for a copy of my agreement which she refused to send. Instead she told me to send her what I had............


It's hard to imagine why in the world SA is treating their base of support in the manner they are? Seems like the cost of ill-will and hard feelings would be much more costly to SA in the long run rather than to just go ahead and switch over the lifetimers to IPTV.
I've been a huge proponent of SA for a decade and I want it to succeed; however, with the amount of hard feelings this switch over seems to be generating, I'm concerned it may not. Frankly, I think the best thing SA could do is to send their lifetimers a letter saying their initial decision to end the agreement with lifetimers was not well thought out, and with further thought, the lifetime subscriptions would be brought over to IPTV when the switch is made.
How hard would that be to do?
I wish Sky Angel well but they're sure making it hard.

[Jashobeam]

You may have just hit the jackpot for yourself and other lifetime members. the problem has been that most lifetime members do not even have a copy of the agreement. If they signed up on the phone SA never sent them. also there are several different versions floating around. I don't think sky angel has copies of who signed what. I went all the way to the VP and asked for a copy of my agreement which she refused to send. Instead she told me to send her what I had............

Of course, skyangel will probably get around this as well by a name change or something :( thanks for posting the info!


Check #7 on that terms and conditions sheet. It says the agreement can be changed at any time w/out notice.

[BusyMommyof8]

The contract I have is an earlier version of the one posted by Abesbirthday and states the same but in greater detail and also adds the provision "for the life of the satelites" with an added assurance that they are in the process of adding additional satellite capabilities. Last I heard the satellites were still in the air but Sky Angel gave/sold/traded them to Dish.

[quiverof8]

thats been the argument of some. sky angel violated the contract when they did not fuflfill their end to launch the new satellite. 2nd of all the satellite is still working dspite their allegations that it is "dying"
If you can post it as an attachment it would be good to have another to compare

[daddy3may2005]

Either way, not sure if anyone has noticed, however Dominion Sky Angel is the "Satellite" side of their business. If you look at the IPTV side, they go by Sky Angel LLC.

Just an observation :)

[Jashobeam]

Their production company is also LLC.

[quiverof8]

If I am not mistaken earlier pamphlets from skyangel had advertised as Dominion. had predicted at that time a name change to avoid potential lawsuits. they might legally get away with this but morally its wrong to change the name in order to get out of ts lifetime contracts!

[James Long]

On a moral level, the most we can do is refuse to do business with them.
It is up to higher powers to judge them and punish them on a higher level.

[BusyMommyof8]

On a moral level, the most we can do is refuse to do business with them.
It is up to higher powers to judge them and punish them on a higher level.


That's so true Mr. Long. Clearly lawsuits or other legal action would violate everything I stand for as a Christian as well as reflect Christ poorly to the world. It seems as though many on this board take a similar position.
Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that the powers that be at SA are counting on that very position. I could be wrong though. I was once before - March 2nd, 1979. :lol:
Have a blessed 2008!
Cindy

[JohnH]

Well, some of the HD is on E*3 and they did not lose a transponder causing the removal of the 3 channels. A wideband data stream was placed on Tp32 in place of the 3 channels.. It is interesting that some of the SkyAngel service is now on other Tps than Tps 25 and 32. :)

BTW: If your lifetime receiver dies, you cannot get a purchased new one authorized.

[quiverof8]

I can understand what you mean about a law suit reflecting poorly on Christians. However to allow sky Angel to continue unchallenged in their treatment of their subs (lifetime, canadian , 10 yr and even monthly) will reflect even worse in the long run. It will appear that Christians sanctioned the behavior of sky angel by NOT taking a stand against them.

At this point (assuming sky angel does cut off the lifetime members) it might be i the best interest to sue them , not for financial gain but for restoration of service. they didn't launch the new satellite, its not our concern HOW they provide the service, only that they do so.

[James Long]

There were limits in the original "lifetime" contracts that was signed. Perhaps SkyAngel should have done more to meet their original stated mission of being an angel in the sky beaming Christian programming around the world. But at this point there is no path toward restoration of the satellite service.

SkyAngel's agreement with EchoStar for the use of EchoStar3 ends at "the life of the satellite". In May E3 will be replaced by the next satellite - and while what is left of E3 will likely serve some purpose somewhere in the sky for the next couple of years as the rest of it fails, Sky Angel would have needed a replacement satellite NOW in order to continue service.

Satellites are not cheap ... neither is launching them. In the end it was cheaper for SkyAngel to leave the DBS business than try to do now what they were unable to do when they originally launched ... actually build their own angel in the sky.

While broadband is not available everywhere and is an additional expense even IF SkyAngel offered free service it is an option that did not exist when SkyAngel first entered people's homes. There is also the GloryStar free system (buy the equipment and no monthly fees) for those who must have satellite.

There will be people who lose their Christian TV because of SkyAngel's failure as a DBS provider - but I believe they are doing the best that they can. There are places reached by broadband that would never be reached by their satellite signal due to dish placement restrictions and the difficulty of seeing their one satellite location from across the country.

There are things they could change ... perhaps a free 6 months or a year of the new service for lifetime subscribers to DBS - definitely some way of having two receivers without paying double ($5 mirror fee, please - or a two or more channel receiver). But the mistake of offering lifetime subscriptions many years ago is one of the reasons why SkyAngel is in the position they are in today ... unable to sustain the satellite service since their best supporters turned in to free customers.

I believe they have been challenged ... and I also believe that they have responded to the best of their financial ability. As posted earlier - the only thing left for us to do is walk away and wash our hands of them. Or forgive them and sign up for IPTV.

Lawsuits rarely change anything. If there is some class action I suspect a lawyer will get rich, SkyAngel will spend money that should be paying for the new service on defending themselves and at best lifetime customers would get some small rebate. I've had a lot of "class action" settlements come to my door (from suits where I was in the class - I did not participate in any suit). My winnings were hardly worth noting.

There are probably better ways to spend time than draining SkyAngel of their ability to perform the new service and lining lawyer's pockets. :)

[quiverof8]

It was sky angels "mistake" yet the lifetimers literally are paying the price (anywhere from $300- $1000!). We didn't ask to pre pay, they made the offer. An offer they obviously couldn't afford, just to raise quick cash.

The "lifetime of the satellite" should have been for the one SUPPOSED to have been LAUNCHED in 2002. If they had kept their word that satellite would only be 5 years old so we would have at least 5 YEARS of service left before it "died". Again, not our fault yet WE the subscribers are supposed to pay the price for sky angels mismanagement/mistakes?! I don't remember hearing one subscriber threaten t sue sky angel when they didn't launch the satellite in 2002. Their current treatment goes too far.

Seriously, how many would stick with their current cell phone company if they were treated even half as poorly? Assume you prepaid for 1 year. They shut off your service after 6 months, then tell you to buy a new phone and pay them AGAIN? would you or would you find another cell phone company.....................

People are taking a LOT from sky angel because the call themselves Christian.

We will lose not only our "Christian TV" but our ONLY TV service. Somehow this is fair to a family with 8 kids and a disabled husband besides? To some it may be just a few of many channels, or only a few dollars! To others it is their lifeline to the outside world and the cost of replacing it not easily achieved.

its especially difficult to plan for the demise of lifetime or DBS when it has NOT been officially announced to its loyal subscribers, many of whom have no internet access.

[James Long]

When was the last time the "lifetime" deal was offered?
How many months of service (years) have customers received for their money?
If those lifetime customers would have paid monthly or annually would they have paid more money over those years or less than they got for their "lifetime" payment?

That is the beginning of the discussion of the "loss" lifetimers have incurred. $300 to $1000? Sounds inflated.

My mention of "lifetime of the satellite" refers to SkyAngel's deal with EchoStar that allowed SkyAngel to be a DBS company at all. They were on the path of losing their satellite assignments from the FCC until that deal was struck. SkyAngel should have replaced the satellite ... they didn't and that eventually led to the current situation where in a couple of months they won't have a satellite to broadcast on. So they have moved on.

As of the subscribe by September 15th, 2002 offering of "lifelong" subscription ($399) offer included these terms:
The lifelong subscription will begin immediately upon receipt of payment and entitles the subscriber to receive the Sky Angel package of thirty-six 24-hour Christian and family-oriented television and radio channels with no further monthly subscription fees for the lifetime of the subscriber and that of their spouse or for the operating lifetime of Dominion Sky Angel. If applicable, state sales tax will be invoiced later. This offer expires on September 15. 2002.

The SkyAngel lifelong subscription entitles you to receive all of the SkyAngel channels which are a part of the basic Sky Angel package of programming, including special events, as modified from time to time, with no additional charge or monthly fee. You also have access to future pay-per-view, special pay channels, and distance learning that may be carried on the SkyAngel system, however, there would be various additional charges for some of these specialized services. Programming, channels, number of channels, pricing and schedules are subject to change without notice.
Based on SkyAngel's failure to launch or procure a replacement satellite they have reached the end of their operating life time as a DBS service. If you would like to try to put the entire company out of business and make sure that Christian programming is not available from SkyAngel via IPTV a lawsuit is a step in that direction. It is not reasonable to expect SkyAngel to deliver programming into your home without their satellite service.

As far as the price ... lifelong was $399 at a time when monthly was $9.99 per month. That is 40 months of service ... which would have hit the break even point in February of 2006. Annual subscriptions were $108 at the time ... the break even point would have been reached in June of 2006 (not factoring in price increases). Yes, you may have expected service for life ... but if you take this to court you are likely to face a lawyer who will demonstrate that you got a good deal.

Life isn't fair ... but I don't believe you will find the answer to your problems in the court systems.

[quiverof8]

Good deal or bad deal is a matter of perception. $300- $1000 is what sky angel charged for life time memberships! If I had been paying $10-$15 a month for sky angel I would have cancelled it years ago. Lack of channels, cancelled channels, sub standard service etc.

People also had the option of buying 10 year subs. It is my understanding that DBS will end before their 10 years are up. Unless sky angel can come up with some very funny math, 10 years is equal to 120 months, no less.

why should a 10 yr not get 10 yrs and a lifetime not = a lifetime anymore? You are quoting a 2002 contract, earlier ones differed. Either way sky angel violated by not launching the satellite. They promised something they couldn't deliver in order to receive funds to keep their business afloat. some would call that dishonest.


A projected loss financially if you assume that a current subscriber is 40 yrs old, will live to 70 and that sky angel maintains the price at $25 might be something like this.....
$300 per year for the rest of the subscribers life must now be budgeted, $9000 if they live 30 years. Now you and I both know that sky angel or any other TV service will raise rates substantially in that time. sky angel has more than doubled just in the past few years once IPTV kicks in!

People prepaid to avoid having to pay out that kind of money. Many will do without tv due to such cost. $399 was/is a LOT of $$$ to some people. $ they may have chosen NOT to give to sky angel if they knew sky angel would not honor the terms THEY set up! Sky angel is not an example of good stewardship or good business management. they couldn't afford to launch the satellite they promised, they bought land that isn't buildable they are now attempting to sell while buy and building on yet more land.

Now they aren't even shipping the IPTV boxes to those who ordered them1 what do those people do in the mean time if they cancelled another service to switch to sky angel? If they paid for high speed they now don't need yet? I honestly can not fathom why anyone would attempt to justify this kind of behavior.

To dump it on people that if they sue sky angel they destroy Christian TV is ridiculous. Sky Angel has already done that. Unfortunately we funded them so they could get to this point.

glorystar is already an option and dish probably isn't far behind, even if it wasn't so be it. sky Angel isn't bringing the gospel to the unsaved by charging $25 a month. Look back at the ORIGINAL mission statements of sky angel. Something along the line of bringing the gospel to rural areas not otherwise served by tv...... IPTV certainly fits that bill , doesn't it? Except they now changed their mission statement (several times in fact). Sky angel will probably drive people right back to secular tv, after all they will already own the dish equipment. Besides high speed or any internet at all is an issue for some Christians.

It has already been pointed out that few get saved by watching sky angel. Sky angel has done more to alienate Christians and has created a feeling of dissent and corruption and suspicion of Christian TV equaled only by the Jim and Tammy.

Don't believe me? Just look at the descension on the forums that sky angel has caused among us Christian viewers! Instead of being one in christ we are divided into several camps. Add in the poor Canadians and you can see just what kind of message sky angel is spreading :(

I would suggest that people call sky angel and ask for a statement IN WRITING as to the status of DBS and their lifetime subs. To my knowledge none has been issued.

I actually received an email yesterday from someone affiliated with sky angel who told me "not to believe the forums". So which parts shouldn't we believe? so far this and other forums have been more accurante and honest than anything from sky angel! the forums hve been correct on every point so far that I have seen.

[James Long]

Good deal or bad deal is a matter of perception. $300- $1000 is what sky angel charged for life time memberships! If I had been paying $10-$15 a month for sky angel I would have cancelled it years ago. Lack of channels, cancelled channels, sub standard service etc.I don't recall a $1000 rate. The last "lifelong" offer I remember seeing was for $495 (or near that) in 2003. If you have a source of a $1000 deal please provide it.

It is a shame that you became unhappy with your service. It sounds like your unhappiness is NOT connected to the service leaving DBS. If you had not made the choice to buy the lifetime membership you could have cut your losses years ago. There was no guarantee that the channel lineup would remain the same nor that their customers would be satisfied for their lifetime.

You are quoting a 2002 contract, earlier ones differed.Feel free to scan and post an earlier contract.

A projected loss financially if you assume that a current subscriber is 40 yrs old, will live to 70 and that sky angel maintains the price at $25 might be something like this.....
$300 per year for the rest of the subscribers life must now be budgeted, $9000 if they live 30 years. Now you and I both know that sky angel or any other TV service will raise rates substantially in that time. sky angel has more than doubled just in the past few years once IPTV kicks in!OK ... here's the deal. SkyAngel pays all lifetime subs $300 for every estimated year of life they have left - goes broke and out of business and no longer provides Christian programming to anyone. Would that make you happy? That sounds like vengence to me.

To deny all of the people who could be encouraged, uplifted and kept on the path via SkyAngel IPTV the SkyAngel service seems selfish.

Sky angel is not an example of good stewardship or good business management.Then don't do business with them. Find another provider. Or turn off the TV. There are options.

sky Angel isn't bringing the gospel to the unsaved by charging $25 a month.And you think $399 lifelong subscriptions were purchased by the unsaved? Or at least by people who did not consider themselves saved? Gifts aside, it seems crazy to consider anything SkyAngel did outside of the free channel on DishNetwork to be outreach to the saved.

In fact, looking at their exclusive contract with Echostar that PROHIBITED Echostar from increasing their religious channel content and the lawsuit SkyAngel filed to enforce that contract and intentionally remove Christian channels from the Echostar system they seemed to operate AGAINST their stated goals - as often discussed on this forum over the past few years.

The problems at SkyAngel are not new.

Just look at the descension on the forums that sky angel has caused among us Christian viewers! Instead of being one in christ we are divided into several camps.Do we all have to be in YOUR camp or are you willing to join someone else's?

Personally I'm willing to say "to {hockysticks} with SkyAngel, let God sort them out". It's not my job to hunt down the company and kill it.

I actually received an email yesterday from someone affiliated with sky angel who told me "not to believe the forums". So which parts shouldn't we believe?It depends on what else was in the email. If they told you that DBS was never shutting down you know better.

[quiverof8]

I will throw this out to others on the board.

How much did you pay for your lifetime? year?

[BusyMommyof8]

I will throw this out to others on the board.

How much did you pay for your lifetime? year?

I believe I paid $299. I got in fairly early...1998 or 99. My contract is different than those previously posted and includes guaranteed service for the lifetime of the satellite with additional assurance that they are launching a new satellite to provide service for the lifetime of myself and/or spouse. SkyAngel didn't leave room to wiggle out in the contract I have.
I hope to have time to scan and post that as many have requested. I truly am a BUSY MOMMY OF 8 (and I'm doing it alone now) so time is at a premium here. :)
Mr. Long - the fact that lifetimers received X number of months of service resulting in a bargain rate of $X per month is not relevant here. Lifetime subscribers signed up and paid for a lifetime subscription, not a bargain monthly rate.
Peace!
Cindy

[James Long]

Mr. Long - the fact that lifetimers received X number of months of service resulting in a bargain rate of $X per month is not relevant here. Lifetime subscribers signed up and paid for a lifetime subscription, not a bargain monthly rate.I am looking at it from a perspective of what a court might rule (since the specter of Christians suing SkyAngel was brought up). $299 for 10 years of service is better than most got.

Thanks for mentioning your terms were for the life of the satellite. Although they INTENDED to launch their own they certainly would not have guaranteed that they would launch their own - otherwise the term "life of the satellite" would be unneeded.

[quiverof8]

Sky angel is trying to "wiggle" out of the contract using the lifetime of satellite nonsense. I agree with you that the satellite is not dead and they did not fullfill their word by laucing the new satellite. I hate to sound harsh but the fact that they could not afford to do so is not our problem. maybe they should have spent less on the wothless/ not buildable land they now own!

they might be attempting to get out of the contract but so far they don't have enough of a leg to stand on that they have put ANYTHING in writing...........

[James Long]

The point of fact is that Sky Angel IS absolutely positively leaving the DBS satellite business. Nothing you can do will change that fact. The satellite they are using will be removed from service at 61.5° later this year, SkyAngel has already transferred their licenses to DISH Network. All that is left is to pull the plug. There is no going back.

Other than denial of these facts, what is your request of SkyAngel? Free service on a system where there is an incremental per-subscriber cost that will continue SkyAngel's losses? Free high speed internet paid for by SkyAngel so you can receive their programming? A cash refund of the "lifelong membership fee" regardless of how many years you have had the service?

What is the goal? Do you want SkyAngel to completely fail and go out of business?

[Jashobeam]

Welcome to taking a chance on a business. All of us took a chance on a company that might or might not last. I am frankly surprised they lasted this long. I have greatly enjoyed SA for the last 4 years and feel I have gotten my money's worth. In those 4 years we spent between $500 and $700, much more than lifetime subs spent to get the service for more years than we have had it. I agree with the PP that some just want SA to fail for whatever reasons. We are ending our SA service before they cease transmission and I hope SA continues to minister to those who end up going with IPTV. I have no hard feelings even though I do think they should have explained things to customer reps and customers.

[Bill R]

Clearly lawsuits or other legal action would violate everything I stand for as a Christian as well as reflect Christ poorly to the world.

You sure practice a differently form of Christanity than I do. That "turn the other cheek" stuff just doesn't cut it in my world.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the powers that be at SA are counting on that very position.

Cindy

Cindy,

There is no doubt in my mind that you are right about that. But don't worry, thre are going to be enough people (like me) that are not going to take the cancelation of our lifetime subscriptions without a fight. We might not win, but believe me, in the long run neither will Sky Angel. My bet is that if they treat their lifetime customers the way we think that they are, they won't be around long.

[quiverof8]

[QUOTE=James Long;1374192]The point of fact is that Sky Angel IS absolutely positively leaving the DBS satellite business.

You say "absolutely" and are quite probably correct. YET have you, or anyone else actually received such notice from sky angel?

the IPTV brochures do not state that they sold their license or that DBS is being cancelled! they appear to offer IPTV as an alternative much like dial up and dbs being offered by the same company

[James Long]

So what is the answer to my question?
With SkyAngel ABSOLUTELY leaving satellite what do you want them to do?

[quiverof8]

I will answer your question once sky angel has the decency to notify its subscribers that DBS and lifetime memberships are being cancelled.

[James Long]

Will suing the company help?

Please see the following message for a personal reply from SkyAngel -
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=981249&postcount=1

[Jashobeam]

I was told. I called SA and asked. The customer rep told me that yes SA would be ending transmission as soon as the IPTV people are settled. If you want to be told, call them. It's a toll free call.

If you didn't like what SA had become programming wise, why are you upset they are no longer transmitting to your home in the near future? If you would have cancelled on them anyway, how is it a lost service to you? If you don't like SA, you aren't going to suffer once they are no longer available to you. You do get the internet, so many Christian stations are available online. Some sites even have free Christian movies to download (TBN is one). You can get a cable and plug it into your TV and watch Christian TV/movies that way.

If you have a DVD player, try Netflix. You get a few movies a month for way less than what the new SA costs. They have a ton of Christian movies, documentaries and such many of which were never available on SA. Some are free to watch online via Netflix if you have an account.

[bjwisner]

I received the letter today. Transmission will end March 31, 2008. I still have my original contract and it looks like they haven't fulfilled their end of the agreement. No equipment failure and no new satellite. Someone pointed out that #7 says "subject to change" but change is much different that cease. It also says they "reserve the right to replace" and that is what I will insist they do. I don't have access to high speed internet in my area, but their new system should have been offered to me regardless in replacement. It appears they are changing the name of their company to get out of their legal obligations. How Worldly of them!

[quiverof8]

You or I should NOT have to chase down a company to find out how long they plan to stay in business!!!

Besides sky angel CS have also been telling people there would be an "offer" to lifetime members, there has been none made :(

bjwisner is correct, sky angel breached the contract when they didn't launch the satellite in 2002 as agreed per their own contract! The question now is what, if anything people plan to do about it. People without internet will be caught in the dark by this.

I may not have liked the road sky angel was following but it is our ONLY TV. Without it no news, no kids shows, no preaching.

Some of us strongly believed in the original vision of sky angel which was to replace worldly TV with Christian only TV. We believed in it enough to buy a lifetime membership. we wanted them to succeed enough to risk losing that $ if they failed. The newer watered down vision was to add to your worldly shows with SKY ANGEL.

They have failed, failed to live up to their word, their vision, their ministry.

[James Long]

Perhaps until that letter was prepared the end date wasn't known? Now they have a date and they are mailing letters. (That should help those that don't have the internet be aware that the end is near.)

As noted several times, the satellite is failing. It is only handling a fraction of the capacity that it was originally designed to handle and is scheduled for replacement by it's owner.

Do you want to spend the next three months griping about it or finding a solution? You HAVE the internet. Use it!

[quiverof8]

That is the point, for some there is NO SOLUTION! 4/1/08 will mean NO TV.

Right after Christmas, and right before tax time, who is going to have "extra" $$ sitting around ?

As for not saying anything sooner due to not knowing the "date" that is bogus. they sent out plenty of IPTV flyers without knowing a start up date, costs or even accurate system requirements!

If people want to switch to IPTV and can then so be it. But at least make sure you take off the rose colored glasses and read the fine print knowing sky angel can and will use it against you some day.

Any of those flyers could have, should have mentioned that when IPTV launches DBS will end.

Again they sent letters trying to charge $5 to lifetimers. A letter could have been mailed stating that they SOLD their license and were discontinuing lifetime subs sometime in 2008.

Never has it been addressed that sky angel failed to launch a new satellite in 2002. Now by their own admission they looked into it in 2006, 4 years AFTER it was scheduled to launch.

I learned a lesson from a friend not so long ago. She told me that if someone has to TELL you they are a Christian they aren't. A Christian will be known by their fruit. sky angel is dividing Christians who should be standing together as believers

[James Long]

As SkyAngel determined the dates, costs and lineup for IPTV they released details. It is odd that in one breath you scold SkyAngel for not saying enough and the next you scold them for saying too much. SkyAngel marketed IPTV in the best way they could ... building interest over time ... instead of waiting until December to spring the whole change on people at once.

I don't give SkyAngel enough credit to KNOW when they were cleaning the dormant "lifelong" accounts off the service and charging $5 for the family channels (which IS permitted under the contract quoted in this thread) that they KNEW they would be out of the satellite business. I believe that somewhere in the back of that corporate mind was denial that the end would ever come.

SkyAngel "waited on the Lord" for their new satellite - but God apparently chose a different answer. Perhaps they should have done more than waited ... but that's more of a theological question.

I've learned a thing or two as well ... judge not lest you be judged is one of them. I'm not seeing the love. I'm seeing a lot bitterness. But that, again, is more of a theological discussion.

So ... now that SkyAngel has notified (or is in the process of notifying) their customers what else is there for them to do?

[drfreeman]

No bitterness here...........
I enjoyed the service while i had it,will enjoy it until 4-1-08
there is hope that dish will add some channels
but everone should remember..........................................

RELAX

ITS JUST TELEVISION!!! :lol:

[Jashobeam]

I was notified by Dish that because DH is a SA customer we are not "new" Dish customers and are not eligible for any of the great discounts by dish. We would have to pay close to $300 our first month. We really wanted to go with Dish once SA was gone, but now it looks like DirecTV is our only option.

[bjwisner]

My thought is that Sky Angel should in the very least offered a discount to their lifetime subscribers. I wouldn't have been so upset if they offered even a $5 discount off the first month. We get the same deal as everyone else and we helped build up their company. We helped make it possible for this new business to even begin. They are biting the hand that feeds them. Personally, I have NO interest in continuing with them now. It's a matter of principle. I should have known not to trust them when some of the ministries said that they were being censored by SkyAngel...that their shows were pulled off the air if it expressed a negative comment about certain terrorist groups. There is a true Christian based TV network. I'm going to their website next. So long SA!

[krazy k]

I think this is a good thing,,,,,,
SA has been terrible to deal with, there customer service is very poor.
And now Dish Network can add as much christian channels as they want.... and i doubt if they will only have them at 61.5........
Cause then that gives everyone a reason not to sub to more....
But they will put them on 110, or 119....
and they will offer everyone the new customer promo which is pretty good.
I personally cant wait for April.........
New Christian channels BABY................

[James Long]

I personally cant wait for April.........
New Christian channels BABY................We can hope!

Unfortunately the TYPE of channel on DBS that religious channels normally fall under is "public interest". The satellite companies are required to set aside a percentage of their capacity for non-commercial channel. Religious channels can easily meet the qualification of being a non-comm PI channel so the law becomes an easy way for them to get on to a satellite service. PIs pay for their space ... but the payment is limited by the law so it isn't too expensive to reach the audience.

DISH Network currently has 27 PI channels ... and thanks to the contract with SkyAngel only four of them are specifically religious: 260 TBN, 261 Eternal Word TV, 262 Angel One and 9710 3ABN. Daystar is also carried nationally on channel 263 but is not a PI channel. DirecTV currently has more religious PI channels but I would not say that they were any more friendly to religion than DISH Network ... they just were able to add channels without the contract restrictions DISH was under. (Don't forget, three religious channels were added by DISH and SkyAngel sued for their removal. Daystar eventually made it's way back on, but DISH made an attempt to add religious channels.)

As for the future ... I hope DISH sees religious broadcasting as a market they can enter. The channels won't be added as PIs unless existing broadcasters leave DISH ... but DISH could work out special deals to get the channels on the air. I hope they take the opportunity that has been given them and use it to their --- and our --- advantage.

[quiverof8]

which promo are you talking aobut? most have said dish considers us customers already and won't give any special offer ;(

sky angel has opened the way for glorystar and possibly dish as well. Most people will not give up tv althogh we are considering it. sky angel, lifetime was out only tv and its a big expense to have a monthly bill.

[Spruceman]

Awww. Maybe all for the better. I always thought time spent reading the Bible is better spent than watching these televangelists-- especially the part about beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Or is that beware of devils in angel's clothing?

[dsharmon]

Well, Lifetime Subscriber here. I found it hard to believe tha the satellite (61.5) was at the end of it's life, so I called Dish Network and the satellite is live and well and Dish will still be using the satellite to transmit it's programming. So, in essence, the satellite is not dead and I'm not dead, therefore SkyAngel still needs to provide me programming at no cost.

Here's another tidbit that I discovered in my investigation. Dish Network will be offering a new package at the beginning of February that will consist of the same programming offered by SkyAngel. No prcing is available at this time, but it is on it's way.

[James Long]

Here's another tidbit that I discovered in my investigation. Dish Network will be offering a new package at the beginning of February that will consist of the same programming offered by SkyAngel. No prcing is available at this time, but it is on it's way.That's good news. I wish it wasn't such a secret!

As far as the death of the satellite ... DISH will be replacing the satellite SkyAngel uses at 61.5° in a few months. The satellite that SkyAngel had a contract to be on "for the life of the satellite" is dying ... it is well documented in DISH quarterly reports. But I would not expect a CSR to report that since it doesn't affect their customer's programming.

[bjwisner]

How is this SkyAngel IPTV helping to spread the Gospel as they claim? The only ones who will get their "message" are those who are interested enough and have enough disposable income to afford it. That limits their audience to well off people who are ALREADY Christians. How is that spreading the Gospel? Imagine if Paul charged pricey tickets each time he went somewhere to speak. How sad when we don't freely give what we have freely received. I would gladly give much more than even SkyAngel is asking as a donation monthly to support a Christian company that transmits its programming FREELY to the world.

[FTA Michael]

I would gladly give much more than even SkyAngel is asking as a donation monthly to support a Christian company that transmits its programming FREELY to the world.There are a whole lot of religious channels available with free-to-air satellite.

[JohnH]

Well, I finally got my Sky Angel Lifetime subscription. :)
I have been a monthly subscriber since '98. I was not able to put together the funds for a Lifetime subscription. I recently paid for the remaining months of service, though.

If 2 months is not enough time for you to come up with an alternative, then perhaps the satellite should just drop out of the sky and leave you with a blank screen without warning. It, sort of, did that once already.

EchoStar 3 has failed. It no longer is capable of maintaining all of the transponders it is licensed to carry.

[quiverof8]

Michael you make good point. of course some are equipped to give more than others. even so this debacle with sky angel should be a wake up call to us all.

If we want to enjoy the Christian FTA stations then we need to financially support them as able.

I don't think anyone should feel guilty over sky angel we paid what they request, be it $300 or $1000. they are a business, not a ministry despite how they portray themselves when it suits their needs.

[Cloud88]

I too received the letter from SkyAngel regarding the wrongful termination of lifetime subscribers. How peculiar: I noticed that in their letter they sent, it had no return address and no phone number. In other words, no way to contact them. How many business have you seen that send you a letter with no return address or contact phone number?

Doesn't this smell fishy to you? It does to me. Anyway, Here's their address:

Attn: Rob Johnson, CEO
Dominion Sky Angel
3050 Horseshoe Dr. N, Ste 290
Naples, FL 34104-7910


Sky Angel
P.O. Box 7609
Naples, FL 34101

I sent them a letter telling them that they must complete their obligation to us lifetime subscribers.

Bye.

[ragamuffin]

Lifetime subscriber is not a matter for semantics except among those who have had a few too many.

Obviously those who signed up for a lifetime membership with Sky Angel accepted in Good Faith that as long as Sky Angel existed they would receive Sky Angel programming.

Those who wish to work their way out of commitments with fine print will soon find out that at best these semantics are only deceiving themselves.

SA's marketing failed to reach the Christian Audience, ask 1000 people who go to church if they have ever heard of Sky Angel and you will find that almost no one even knows they exist.

So failing to reach the mass Christian audience, the next best thing was to get those lifetime members to pay monthly, some method was needed to alter or void lifetime memberships.
First they attempted to change programming and charge for this "new programming"

Failing that, they are attempting to get lifetime subscribers to pay monthly because of a new transmission method.

It’s only a legal loophole,

Can you spell "deception?"




There are lifetime subs that have looked at the big picture ... they paid X dollars and got Y years of service ... and X divided by Y was a bargain. SkyAngel stopped selling the "lifetime" subscriptions a few years ago ... only the final signups would be possibly have paid more for "lifetime" than if they just bought and renewed an annual subscription.

The "lifetime" contract allows you to use the SkyAngel DBS service for the rest of your life or the life of the surviving spouse. Within the next year there will be no more SkyAngel DBS service. If you can find in the contract where they agreed to provide channels beyond the life of the satellite feel free to scan and post and image of the contract.

E3 is at end of life ... at last report it was 60% disabled and able to cover only 79% of it's assignment. It is on it's deathbed. At least SkyAngel didn't wait until it died to make other plans.

[ragamuffin]

as long as one is writing about how something is affecting them personally, what is wrong with that,

if someone is being hurt, does one expect them to be "nice" and lay there suffereing and not ask for help?

is it wrong to ask for fair play?

I agree with my disabled friend


and nothing in what he said seems to want to bash anyone, when something is wrong it's right to talk about it.

I haven't read anything that is out of line, only an appeal for fair play.

when is it wrong to ask in a nice way for fair play?

I certainly did not mean to upset anyone. It seemed by the questions that some had not read my earlier post regarding Nancy's reply which is why I posted again. I was trying to be fair to Sky Angel by letting people get answers for themselves. You should never take anyones word for something online without verifying it yourself.

If people email Nancy at least they get an answer rather than a generic Sky Angel form letter sent out by customer service.

IPTV is not a viable option for many due to the availability and cost of high speed internet.

I did find it interesting that you mention Nancy is lurking rather than posting. Any and all I have posted here I have already said to her myself. There was some question on another board as to "lurking" sky angel staff, at least we know they are reading our comments.

At what point does this become a "campaign/cause" rather than a discussion? its not as if I was suggesting a picket line at SA headquarters. Could you please explain your guidelines?

If I have a "cause" then I guess it is maintaining continued SA service for a legally disabled man and his family of 8 children. Is that so wrong?

[ragamuffin]

Thank you for putting into words what needed to be said.

As to those who say this should go away and let's talk about something else for a change,
This is a big deal; we more than anyone else want this to go away. If SA will allow lifetime subscribers to continue viewing (we will pay for our own equipment of course) and we would all be happy campers.

Unfortunately those who live out in God's country and don't have Internet; unfortunately they would not have that option.

But God hasn't forgotten them, if what I've read about Glorystar is true, they will have something.

We bargained in good faith and should receive the same. The thread will end when SA honors in good faith.

There is only one reason to change to the new technology, because it's more cost effective for their marketing.

But to require lifetime subscribers to begin paying monthly fees because it's financially beneficial to SA is not bargaining in good faith,

Everyone knows it, it couldn't be more obvious



You say "lifetime" as if it were some questionable term the subscribers are trying to twist. The subscribers didn't make that term. SkyAngel did. If they didn't want to characterize it as lifetime, or for the customer to take it as that, they should not have called it that.

As for whether the subscribers got their $$ worth if they had paid regular rates, some did, some didn't. But that's not the point. Subscribers paid up front, (and when I joined it was i think $5 a month) so that Sky Angel could use our $$ to build their DBS distribution system.

Sky Angel isn't going out of business. Nor is the satellite dead. They are just selling the transponders to get into the IPTV business here in the US. And leaving the customer base high and dry who supported them to deliver by DBS.

They ought to at the very least sign up the lifetime subbers to IPTV AS LONG AS E3 is functioning for E*. IMHO, they ought to sign them up permanently, but the the former would be the minimum they ought to do. Even that wouldn't do much good for most people, but it would at least be an attempt to make some kind of restitution for what they were contractually supposed to provide by DBS.

As for Skyangel not waiting till E3 died, for those people who have no ability to get broadband, or find it too expensive, or who are lifetime subbers who Sky angel is apparently dumping, it would have been far better for all those people -- I'm suspecting the majority of their subscribers -- if they had waited till E3 had died. At least the customers would have received their contracted service until that point. And at least Sky angel would have fulfilled the terms of that contract. The reason Sky angel is not doing that is that presumably they want the money from the transponder sale. Interesting that to Skyangel E3 is always dead when they talk to their customers, but not dead when they sell the transponders to E* or talk to the FCC.

Truthfully it sounds damn immoral to me, to take money on a contract to deliver one thing, and then dump those people and what they funded and sell it and take those funds to fund another project. When you raise money, you're supposed to spend it on what it was solicited for. When you sell a service, you are supposed to provide it, not say, oh, I think I can make more $$ here, so let me sell that and buy something else and charge you again for what you already bought.

Whether that is illegal or not is for lawyers to decide,and the customer never wins in those things. But for the ordinary person, who was sold a lifetime sub for a satellite as long as the satellite was up there and Sky angel was in business, that customer has a right to feel taken. There is no more DBS service not because E3 is dead but only because Sky angel CHOSE NOT TO PROVIDE IT. Because they chose to welch on their contracts, sell what was needed to deliver on them, take the money and run to set up another venue. Not because E3 is dead or they are out of business.

It seems from your email you are trying to paint the *subscriber* as greedy, trying to get more than their subscription was supposed to pay for and sky angel as being honorable in trying to find other alternatives. It's bad enough to be welched on by sky angel -- and even worse that they haven't even told their customers yet. If Sky Angel execs are lurking on the board, it's disgraceful they haven't spoken up to answer some of the questions and concerns posted here by customers whose funds help build their company and pay their salaries. And if customers are upset, and sky angel execs were treated badly here in the past, perhaps the blame should be put squarely where it belongs and the execs deserved it.

Trying to turn the blame and the guilt on the wronged consumer, trying to paint the lifetime subscriber as greedy, rather than the company that is selling Peter to buy Paul, may work on some, but it just doesn't work on me.

[James Long]

Lifetime subscriber is not a matter for semantics except among those who have had a few too many.
...
Failing that, they are attempting to get lifetime subscribers to pay monthly because of a new transmission method.Well, that's nice. Start with an accusation that anyone who disagrees with you is an alcoholic ...

SkyAngel NEVER promised to deliver the channels to you for the rest of your life separate from the satellite service, which despite all denials IS going away and the satellite IS going away too. Perhaps someone spiked your holy water?

SkyAngel cannot afford to replace their satellite service with another service at the same cost. The deal they made with EchoStar a decade ago was too sweet ... basically free satellite space instead of paying $300,000 per month (or more). When you're not paying for service it is easy to give it away to others.

THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO SPEND $300,000 PLUS PER MONTH FOR CUSTOMERS THAT PAY THEM NOTHING FOR THE SERVICE!

The sweet deal expired ... the decade passed and the specific satellite they made a deal to be on is, 100%, going out of service. You lie to yourself , other Christians and the world if you deny that fact. The new deal that SkyAngel can get isn't sweet ... and just as you suggested, SkyAngel has made the decision to find a less expensive way of providing their service.

Unfortunately IPTV isn't free ... they cannot afford to spend thousands of dollars for customers paying them nothing for that service either. They have to PAY someone for their servers and bandwidth.

They are apparently just trying to stay alive ... if you want to kill them off just for spite a lawsuit is an excellent idea. You can be just as bad as SkyAngel and go to court to stop the spread of the gospel - just because it isn't being done one your terms.

Oh, I forgot ... it isn't about the great commission but the almighty buck. You want free Christian TV for people who paid hundreds of dollars five or more years ago, not an evangelical tool to support new Christians. :rolleyes:

You remind me of the "Christians" who give a few thousand to the building fund and then stop tithing (as if a one time payment gave permission to ignore the continuing Biblical obligation). All focused on what they deserve instead of what they can freely give.

[quiverof8]

Sky Angel charged a fee for lifetime membership (varied). No one forced them to make the offer. they were in financial trouble and could have chosen to offer a different incentive or shorter term. Lifetime members helped keep sky angel in business the past 5-10 years so that monthly members had the service available.

Its not just "lifetime" members but now 3abn who also has issues with sky angel. it seems that 3abn sold lifetime sky angel memberships and turned the funds over to sky angel. Sky angel isn't honoring any lifetime contracts. 3abn is now running a segment with "alternates" as well as a phone # to COMPLAIN to sky angel!

As others have said the sat is not dead, sky angel is still in business and we are still alive!

Learn a lesson from what sky angel IPTV in Canada did! They lasted less than 1 yr, they shut off subs with no notice, continued debiting their bank accts too!

They had at one time over 100,000 PAYING subscribers. According to CS they have 5000 IPTV subs. According to neulion they need 10,000 to BREAK even. therefor sky angel is no where close to making a profit or meeting expenses. How long will IPTV last? A bif portion of sky angel subs were the SDA. They now have moiptv, hope tv, 3 abn sat, glorystar and dish to broadcast on.

skyangel are losing both monthly subs who can not or will not switch as well as lifetimers who either feel ripped off or don't have high speed. IPTV may be the wave of the future but I don't think sky angel is going to be around long enough to take advantage of it.

It started with wanting to charge lifetimer an extra $5, then went to not honoring lifetime at all. if handled differently thing may have turned out differently.

[James Long]

SkyAngel made many mistakes ... adding programming that cost them money without immediately charging customers for that programming was one of those mistakes.

[Jashobeam]

As others have said the sat is not dead, sky angel is still in business and we are still alive! . . .

They had at one time over 100,000 PAYING subscribers.

The sat is nearly dead. Don't you get that? It is like a car that is headed for the junkyard. It's dying and going to be replaced. You keep saying it's not dead like suddenly physics will be changed and a dying sat will suddenly come back to life. It ain't happening.


Please provide a real source/link for the 100K paying subscribers. I have seen guesses, but I have yet to see an actual SA source/link that says there were any specific or even aproximate number of subscribers.

[James Long]

They had at one time over 100,000 PAYING subscribers.Please provide a real source/link for the 100K paying subscribers. I have seen guesses, but I have yet to see an actual SA source/link that says there were any specific or even aproximate number of subscribers.I'd like to see that source as well ... plus the estimate of how many of them were Lifelong subscribers, and how many they had a year ago before they started winding down the satellite service.

The "at one time" is the killer. When was that time? They would need to have 100k paying NOW to keep the satellite system on the air - especially with the non-free secular channels they added.

[quiverof8]

Actually it was a newspaper article, posted slightly over 100,000. will try and find a link to it and update my post. IT WAS ecent and the only time a # was ever published to my knowledge. there was some debate as to if "paying subscribers" was including lifetimers

[Topekalawyer]

We knew when we signed up as "lifetime subscribers" it might not be forever. The fine print had some exclusions. But we did get a long term net savings over the monthly rate. So like a lot of things in life, we took a risk on Sky Angel, trusting that they would honor their word and the Spirit of the contracts. Some accomidation should be made for life timers, but it would be no matter to us. We don't have internet at home and don't intend to get it. (As an aside, Jim Baker went to prision for 18 months for selling life time partnerships that the courts found he would be unable to honor.) Churches change, schools change, businesses change....sad, but we will move on. Kirk