View Full Version : Tuner 2 Gone Again
Okay, today I go to record a program and the HR20 tells me I have to cancel another program to do so and brings up a list with one show that was being recorded.
I then delete that show and make sure there is nothing else to be recorded at that time and attempt to record 2 shows starting at the same time and the unit won't allow it.
So, I go and run a System Test which tells me:
Tuner 1, OK, Acquired at 95%
Tuner 2, OK, Acquired at 96%
I go to Sat/Ant and look at Signal Strength
Satellite 101 Tuner 1 Gets between 94 and 100 on the transponders
Satellite 101 Tuner 2 Gets about the same readings.
I then select Signal Meters:
Tuner 1: 96%
Tuner 2: Not Acquired.
Is this normal for the Test Signal Strength Screen?
Note: it appears not as both were indicating signal after the reboot.
So, I restart receiver (using the menu option)...and it works again.
This is some solid piece of hardware. I wonder how long before it stops again. I guess I better go check the two other HR20s in the house and make sure they're working.
I know, I can call DirecTV have them force me to format my HD and lose all my recordings and then get told they're going to have to send someone out with a replacement. The guy will come...jiggle some connections and then determine that I need a new HR20. I'll tell him that the CSR told me that he would have one and he'll say "We never bring replacements out...we're not allowed to". Sometime later D will ship me a new HR20 and I'll get the joy of reinstalling it, re-setting up my recordings and shipping back the old one.
Earl Bonovich
06-26-07, 12:54 PM
Is it the same HR20 that does this to you?
Or do your other two have the same symptoms?
Is it the same HR20 that does this to you?
Or do your other two have the same symptoms?
This is the first time I have noticed this problem with this machine. Of course, it could be happening more often as it's not all that often that I record two shows at the same time.
I had the tuner 2 issue originally when I had to send back two other units for the same problem.
How is it one signal test shows signal and active tuner and the next doesn't? That happened several times too...methinks one of the tests is lying.
I just checked my other HR20s they both seem to have two working tuners at this time. That, of course, appears to be subject to change.
Earl Bonovich
06-26-07, 01:04 PM
This is the first time I have noticed this problem with this machine. Of course, it could be happening more often as it's not all that often that I record two shows at the same time.
I had the tuner 2 issue originally when I had to send back two other units for the same problem.
How is it one signal test shows signal and active tuner and the next doesn't? That happened several times too...methinks one of the tests is lying.
I just checked my other HR20s they both seem to have two working tuners at this time. That, of course, appears to be subject to change.
It might not be that the tests are lying... it could be the way the tests are done.
When you are trying to record two things at once... you are USING both tuners at one time.
When they are testing, they may only be accessing one of that at a time, and thus the conditions are not the same.
And since we don't know "Exactly" what each test is doing (like trying to access specific transponder, or just flat out looking for any signal)... it is hard to determin what is going on from our side of the fence.
It might not be that the tests are lying... it could be the way the tests are done.
When you are trying to record two things at once... you are USING both tuners at one time.
When they are testing, they may only be accessing one of that at a time, and thus the conditions are not the same.
And since we don't know "Exactly" what each test is doing (like trying to access specific transponder, or just flat out looking for any signal)... it is hard to determin what is going on from our side of the fence.
Right, it's hard to determine that the tuner is working even though the system test is saying it's OK.
I'll tell him that the CSR told me that he would have one and he'll say "We never bring replacements out...we're not allowed to".
We got a new memo, effective the first of this month we replace HR20's. Of course thats subject to change, like your tuner and my days off.
samrs...thanks for the info.
dwneylonsr
06-30-07, 01:42 PM
I've had this problem since I hooked up the second line to my HR20-700 last week. One test says there's a signal, and the other says the second tuner is not acquired. And I cannot record two shows at the same time.
Does this appear to be a common hardware problem with the HD DVR? Or am I likely to resolve the problem with a format? And can I install my eSata drive and get the reformat without losing my settings on my internal HD?
Thanks,
David
Phoenix, AZ
veryoldschool
06-30-07, 02:12 PM
Does this appear to be a common hardware problem with the HD DVR? Or am I likely to resolve the problem with a format?
Thanks,
David
Phoenix, AZ
This is a "common" defect of some HR20s, whether made by PACE [-700] or RCA [-100].
If a reset doesn't bring it back and you have a good SAT feed, then it's a bad box.
While this might happen once or twice, it should not be happening with any frequency.
When the box boots it will detect how many tuners are connected to the dish. It should stay this way until the next time it boots, when it repeats this check.
Formatting will have to effect.
BTW: :welcome_s to th forum.
RobertE
06-30-07, 02:47 PM
Ken, with the number of bad tuners you've had....
I wouldn't want to stand next to you during a thunderstorm. You've got some bad luck going on there.
I believe that there has to be some external factor that is causing these issues for you. The odds of that many bad are just huge.
veryoldschool
06-30-07, 02:58 PM
Right, it's hard to determine that the tuner is working even though the system test is saying it's OK.
Two tests: one that the tuners are "there" and respond with some internal signal.
Second test is for the system levels, which are more than the tuner, but how much RF is coming from the SAT transponders.
Test #1 is internal to the HR20.
Test #2 checks the tuner, cabling, dish output, etc.
While it may be confusing, the one that clearly counts is the transponder level test.
birdman1
06-30-07, 03:19 PM
I had a similar problem with a HR20-700. When I checked the transponders the number 1 tuners checked good with all high readings 90 and above the number 2 tuner would get the low readings on the odd transponders and zero on the even transponders. Then I checked all of my cables. I swapped it out with my other HR20, to check it out and to rule out any wiring problems it did the same thing. I talked to DTV and told them what I had done so I knew that I had a bad number 2 tuner. They sent out a tech and he looked at it and then installed a new box. I think that your tuner is bad and you need a new box.
bonscott87
06-30-07, 05:41 PM
Ken, have you had your LNB replaced yet? How about your multiswitch?
To keep having the same problem with different and new boxes really points to something else at work here. My bet is on the LNB. I remember similar posts like this 6-8 months ago and replacing the LNB fixed a number of them.
Just a thought.
Ken, have you had your LNB replaced yet? How about your multiswitch?
To keep having the same problem with different and new boxes really points to something else at work here. My bet is on the LNB. I remember similar posts like this 6-8 months ago and replacing the LNB fixed a number of them.
Just a thought.
I haven't had the LNB changed. I'm not sure how a bad LNB would only effect one box and not the other two at the same time. But then again...with D equipment everything is likely to be flaky so it's probably worth a try.
I bought a powered multi-switch and put it in place a couple of days ago.
The biggest issue with this kind of problem is that unless you look for it...or do a LOT of recording you don't see it as it's not all that often that I'm actually recording two shows at the same time.
It may also occur and then be temporarily fixed when the boxes reboot after a NR.
I have a couple of theories on the issue:
1. There is a hardware problem with a lot of the tuners...they're just flaky and at power on/reboot it's possible that one won't come up at all or fast enough and be bypassed during the start-up sequence.
2. There's a bug/memory leak in the software and over time it causes the tuner to disappear.
3. Tuner 2 is put into a "standby" mode of some sort when not used for a period of time and there's some sort of problem with it coming out.
These are all just guesses of course...sometimes I think I ought to buy an HR-20 and give it to some of my buddies to tear into the code. It would be interesting to really understand how this thing works.
But, yes now...every time I watch TV...I go and check the signal meters to see if two are there and operating.
I do appreciate the suggestions and the time you guys take to post them.
veryoldschool
07-01-07, 09:59 AM
KenS
As you may know, I read & track problems. It's just my nature with my background.
There has been numerous reports of problems with SAT tuner #2. I think the was a bad manufacturing run some months back. Some users need to get three or four units before both tuners would work from the get go.
While yours doesn't seem DOA as theirs were, I does sound like you have a flaky one [hardware].
It is not "inherent" in the software or the design as"mine work fine" and I do use both tuners a lot of the time.
"I think" you have a bad receiver. Changing cables between #1 & #2 should either: show that there is a problem with them [by changing to #1] or show that it is tuner #2 still and is the box.
You've got a software background & I a hardware system level, so we look at a problem differently.
I test to resolve & isolate problems & I would be seriously looking at the hardware because of past experiences form other users. FWIW
You're not alone Ken: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=990089#post990089
psternklar
07-01-07, 10:19 AM
kens, call D*, they gave me no trouble at all.
KenS
As you may know, I read & track problems. It's just my nature with my background.
There has been numerous reports of problems with SAT tuner #2. I think the was a bad manufacturing run some months back. Some users need to get three or four units before both tuners would work from the get go.
While yours doesn't seem DOA as theirs were, I does sound like you have a flaky one [hardware].
It is not "inherent" in the software or the design as"mine work fine" and I do use both tuners a lot of the time.
"I think" you have a bad receiver. Changing cables between #1 & #2 should either: show that there is a problem with them [by changing to #1] or show that it is tuner #2 still and is the box.
You've got a software background & I a hardware system level, so we look at a problem differently.
I test to resolve & isolate problems & I would be seriously looking at the hardware because of past experiences form other users. FWIW
You're not alone Ken: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=990089#post990089
VOS,
I don't disagree about the hardware problem, I just think that it's in conjunction with a software issue as well. It was my possibility #1. I'm just going to eliminate everything else and make sure it's not happening on all three receivers.
veryoldschool
07-01-07, 10:57 AM
VOS,
I don't disagree about the hardware problem, I just think that it's in conjunction with a software issue as well. It was my possibility #1. I'm just going to eliminate everything else and make sure it's not happening on all three receivers.
Troubleshooting is a good thing.
If I remember, you & I have been down this road before.
Any way I can help, just let me know. :)
Jimmmmbo!
07-12-07, 05:18 PM
Same problem as OP here. :(
Just talked to the installation company owner. In a couple of hours, he's going to walk me through a routine that he claims someone has just discovered that he thinks solves the problem. And it is not resetting the unit through the menus.
I'll post back when I see the result. Something tells me it'll just be basically doing the same thing as a menu reset, just a different path through the software.
Seems like if we can reliably cause the problem the happen, it would go a long way toward trying to find a reliable solution (assuming it can be solved with software).
cygnusloop
07-12-07, 05:27 PM
Same problem as OP here. :(
Just talked to the installation company owner. In a couple of hours, he's going to walk me through a routine that he claims someone has just discovered that he thinks solves the problem. And it is not resetting the unit through the menus.
I'll post back when I see the result. Something tells me it'll just be basically doing the same thing as a menu reset, just a different path through the software.
Seems like if we can reliably cause the problem the happen, it would go a long way toward trying to find a reliable solution (assuming it can be solved with software).
Be wary. I would be very surprised if he knows some kind of secret reset method that the folks around here don't know about. If he suggests the "reset everything" selection, know that it will format your HD, and you will lose all your recordings and user settings. I could, however, be wrong. (I'm gonna have to add that to my sig one day. :sure: )
Please post back what he tells you. I would be very interested to know.
Be wary. I would be very surprised if he knows some kind of secret reset method that the folks around here don't know about. If he suggests the "reset everything" selection, know that it will format your HD, and you will lose all your recordings and user settings. I could, however, be wrong. (I'm gonna have to add that to my sig one day. :sure: )
Please post back what he tells you. I would be very interested to know.I don't think the installer was claiming to know an alternate reset method ... Jimmmmbo said the installer had a method to solve the problem and it wasn't a menu reset. In other words, the solution is NOT a reset, but is something else the installer will be trying.
Here's one thing to try right now when you lose the second tuner:
On the front panel, press the RIGHT-BUTTON and the ACTIVE-BUTTON at the same time. Scroll down and report the Tuner 1 and Tuner 2 percentages. Both should be in the same neighborhood, but if you're losing tuner 2, the value here may mean something.
I don't think the installer was claiming to know an alternate reset method ... Jimmmmbo said the installer had a method to solve the problem and it wasn't a menu reset. In other words, the solution is NOT a reset, but is something else the installer will be trying.
Here's one thing to try right now when you lose the second tuner:
On the front panel, press the RIGHT-BUTTON and the ACTIVE-BUTTON at the same time. Scroll down and report the Tuner 1 and Tuner 2 percentages. Both should be in the same neighborhood, but if you're losing tuner 2, the value here may mean something.
When I press those two buttons at the same time on the front panel I just get the interact screen. Tried it several times.
When I press those two buttons at the same time on the front panel I just get the interact screen. Tried it several times.Ken, try it this way:
Press and hold the right-button on the front panel, keep it held, and THEN press the active button.
(I'm using a CE release right now, so I'm hoping this isn't a feature that only works on a non-national release ... It brings up a simple diagnostics screen.)
Ken, try it this way:
Press and hold the right-button on the front panel, keep it held, and THEN press the active button.
(I'm using a CE release right now, so I'm hoping this isn't a feature that only works on a non-national release ... It brings up a simple diagnostics screen.)
That's the way I was trying it. I think it must be a CE feature.
The only way I have been able to tell if both tuners are really working is to get to the Signal Meters screen (not just signal test)
cygnusloop
07-12-07, 09:49 PM
Ken, try it this way:
Press and hold the right-button on the front panel, keep it held, and THEN press the active button.
(I'm using a CE release right now, so I'm hoping this isn't a feature that only works on a non-national release ... It brings up a simple diagnostics screen.)
Drew, does it require the initial IAMANEDGECUTTER keyword search?
veryoldschool
07-12-07, 10:38 PM
Drew, does it require the initial IAMANEDGECUTTER keyword search?
Good question.
We've [all] done that search and most times it retains it over new down loads, but when it hasn't worked the "fix" was to do the search again.
Jimmmmbo!
07-13-07, 02:11 AM
So, the installer's solution was:
- Unplug
- Pull the access card
- Plug in
- At the first white screen put the access card back in
- RBR
As I expected, this is really no different than what was already being done: Just reset the DVR (menu reset, RBR, pull the plug: it's all the same). Just make sure that tuner 2's signal is solid when you reset.
Earl: If you see this, you have PM of my experience. Perhaps it will help.
----------------------
Jim
Drew, does it require the initial IAMANEDGECUTTER keyword search?That's a good question ... I have that KEYWORD search still present in my saved searches, from several releases ago. I guess that's something to try if you can't get to the front-panel diagnostics screen from the two-button push: Add IAMANEDGECUTTER as a keyword saearch and then try the buttons again...
sigma1914
07-13-07, 05:30 AM
I had this issue on both units after storms reset our power. During the re-powering phase, sat signals were not coming in (storm was still bad) and it kept trying to find a signal. I did a menu reset during clear weather, and both were fine.
I re-did IAMANEDGECUTTER and the function worked. But is that taking the readings individually or both together? The system test does the individually. Signal Meters does them together.
Anyway, for now I have signal on all "3" tuners...but that's not unusual as this problem is sporadic.
Maybe D should make some of those LEDs on the front panel of use and have indicators for tuner strength?
Steve Robertson
07-13-07, 06:12 AM
I have had issues with tuner 2 as well comes and goes it seems for no reason.
Jimmmmbo!
07-13-07, 09:09 AM
From my playing around last night, I was able to confirm that if tuner 2 is not receiving a solid signal during the entire bootup process, it will fail to tune at all until the next reset.
If anyone wants to confirm my finding, you can duplicate the problem ... uh, feature :D ... by unplugging tuner 2, performing a reset, and then after the system has completed boot, go to the signal meters and try to reattach tuner 2; you'll find that it won't acquire a signal. It takes another reset with tuner 2 plugged in to make it come back.
This is making for a lot of headaches for installers and needless equipment replacements if its a software problem. I would expect D* would want to hop on this one pretty quick. I know that my installer is pretty bent over it.
veryoldschool
07-13-07, 09:14 AM
Not everyone had two coax feeds, therefore the HR-20 does an autoconfig at boot up to check how many SAT feeds are active. This is why the reset/reboot is needed.
Now on the other side: if you lose a sat feed after boot, you get the blank recording bug, since the recorder thinks there is a feed coming in on both inputs [whether there is or not].
From my playing around last night, I was able to confirm that if tuner 2 is not receiving a solid signal during the entire bootup process, it will fail to tune at all until the next reset.
If anyone wants to confirm my finding, you can duplicate the problem ... uh, feature :D ... by unplugging tuner 2, performing a reset, and then after the system has completed boot, go to the signal meters and try to reattach tuner 2; you'll find that it won't acquire a signal. It takes another reset with tuner 2 plugged in to make it come back.
This is making for a lot of headaches for installers and needless equipment replacements if its a software problem. I would expect D* would want to hop on this one pretty quick. I know that my installer is pretty bent over it.
Jim,
Yes, I've seen that happen...but in they way the machine works that almost makes sense. If something "isn't" there at bootup...it's not there.
The issue several of are happening though occurs later...where the box just can't seem to support two tuners operating at one time and sort of ignores one...even though it'll tell you it's just fine in the system test.
I think it's the two records at once that cause the issue to show up.
Jimmmmbo!
07-13-07, 10:05 AM
Not everyone had two coax feeds, therefore the HR-20 does an autoconfig at boot up to check how many SAT feeds are active. This is why the reset/reboot is needed.
Now on the other side: if you lose a sat feed after boot, you get the blank recording bug, since the recorder thinks there is a feed coming in on both inputs [whether there is or not].
Ugh. Seems like there ought to be a better way to deal with this.
veryoldschool
07-13-07, 10:09 AM
Ugh. Seems like there ought to be a better way to deal with this.
You mean like a little "are you there" before tuning?
Jimmmmbo!
07-13-07, 10:11 AM
The issue several of are happening though occurs later...where the box just can't seem to support two tuners operating at one time and sort of ignores one...even though it'll tell you it's just fine in the system test.
I see your point. This does sound different. I did try to break it last night by doing two recordings and plugging/unplugging tuner 2 a bunch, but it seemed to stay solid for me.
I have several dual recordings set up as a test for today. I'll see how that goes. Of course, if it's time-based, or a memory leak, it could obviously take days/weeks before it manifests itself.
Jimmmmbo!
07-13-07, 10:14 AM
You mean like a little "are you there" before tuning?
Possible, if it doesn't take an inordinate amount of time to do it. We probably don't want to turn this thing back into a Ver 3.1.5 HR10. I had enough of the time lags with that thing. :nono2:
veryoldschool
07-13-07, 10:49 AM
Possible, if it doesn't take an inordinate amount of time to do it. We probably don't want to turn this thing back into a Ver 3.1.5 HR10. I had enough of the time lags with that thing. :nono2:
I'd bet there is alway a signal on each tuner, so it could be done in the back ground, couldn't it? Voltage detected on pin X = go for launch.
Of course fixing the real problem might be the better way to go [especially if it is a hardware issue].
I see your point. This does sound different. I did try to break it last night by doing two recordings and plugging/unplugging tuner 2 a bunch, but it seemed to stay solid for me.
I have several dual recordings set up as a test for today. I'll see how that goes. Of course, if it's time-based, or a memory leak, it could obviously take days/weeks before it manifests itself.
It is a very sporadic thing. I can't replicate it easily...but every so often it bites. In the land of annoying things it's nowhere near as bad as the error (13) recording problems that several of seem to face everyday.
tfederov
07-13-07, 11:16 AM
Jim,
Yes, I've seen that happen...but in they way the machine works that almost makes sense. If something "isn't" there at bootup...it's not there.
The issue several of are happening though occurs later...where the box just can't seem to support two tuners operating at one time and sort of ignores one...even though it'll tell you it's just fine in the system test.
I think it's the two records at once that cause the issue to show up.
I found this yesterday the hard way. I was watching The Longest Yard (awesome movie) and got a message saying the channel needed to be changed to record My Name is Earl (awesome show). Okay, makes sense. I wonder what the other tuner is recording....
What other tuner? It wasn't there!
I posted this in the CE forum yesterday because 3/4 of my home setup is running CE code.
I did some checking on my boxes, all four of them were only working with one tuner. The day before we had a hella-nasty storm come through and knock out the power to the house. When I got home, all four boxes were lit indicating a reboot but everything looked fine. I wouldn't have caught this issue if it weren't for me being so curious. First thing I did last night was check signals. Nada on 2. Next thing I did was re-run satellite setup. No good, still no tuner 2. Freaking out and posting for help, I forgot to reboot. I rebooted all four and all is good with the world.
Something that would be good for times like this would actually be "searching for signal on 2" or something. If the box is configured for two tuners, we should at least get a message saying it isn't there instead of having us stumble on it by accident.
Yep...that's the way you find it. Although, I don't think it's always associated with a reboot or bad signal strength. I say this because I can pull one of my sat inputs and leave it out for awhile and then put it back in with no ill effects. Actually, the fact the machine doesn't say anything about that situation is kind of bothersome.
I found this yesterday the hard way. I was watching The Longest Yard (awesome movie) and got a message saying the channel needed to be changed to record My Name is Earl (awesome show). Okay, makes sense. I wonder what the other tuner is recording....
What other tuner? It wasn't there!
I posted this in the CE forum yesterday because 3/4 of my home setup is running CE code.
I did some checking on my boxes, all four of them were only working with one tuner. The day before we had a hella-nasty storm come through and knock out the power to the house. When I got home, all four boxes were lit indicating a reboot but everything looked fine. I wouldn't have caught this issue if it weren't for me being so curious. First thing I did last night was check signals. Nada on 2. Next thing I did was re-run satellite setup. No good, still no tuner 2. Freaking out and posting for help, I forgot to reboot. I rebooted all four and all is good with the world.
Something that would be good for times like this would actually be "searching for signal on 2" or something. If the box is configured for two tuners, we should at least get a message saying it isn't there instead of having us stumble on it by accident.
veryoldschool
07-13-07, 01:28 PM
Yep...that's the way you find it. Although, I don't think it's always associated with a reboot or bad signal strength. I say this because I can pull one of my sat inputs and leave it out for awhile and then put it back in with no ill effects. Actually, the fact the machine doesn't say anything about that situation is kind of bothersome.
"live" will [should] show 771, but a recording is just blank. [with cable remeved and no reboot]
"live" will [should] show 771, but a recording is just blank. [with cable remeved and no reboot]
VOS,
Right, but what about you're just watching 1 tuner and the other isn't doing anything and that signal goes away?
If I remember correctly on the Tivo you'd get a "Searching for message whenever either tuner went away if they were both active" If the box did that while not fixing the issue it would alert the user to a problem.
veryoldschool
07-13-07, 06:31 PM
VOS,
Right, but what about you're just watching 1 tuner and the other isn't doing anything and that signal goes away?
If I remember correctly on the Tivo you'd get a "Searching for message whenever either tuner went away if they were both active" If the box did that while not fixing the issue it would alert the user to a problem.
never had a Tivo to know.
While creating many error messages would help the user, if it's a recording viewed later how would you know?
I had something like this: a Leno recording, watched it later, got to a spot where is froze. WTF? Oh that's right I had a hail burst..>>> through the time, bingo there is was again.
If I hadn't remembered just going through it, I would never have known. No message, just stop [paused with signal loss] and started back up.
Also:
do they spend their time working on error messages or fixing the cause of the problem?
If there's no problem, there's no need for a message.
Not really chicken or the egg. More like with no chicken, you don't need the egg.
hockey8787
07-13-07, 06:56 PM
hi ken are you by any chance diplexing on one of the lines coming into the receiver
hi ken are you by any chance diplexing on one of the lines coming into the receiver
No, all the feeds are directly from a powered multiswitch. Had the entire house cabled before we moved in. The powered mswitch was only put in place to possibly eliminate the non-powered version being the issue.
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