H21-200: - First Look: Discussion

[Earl Bonovich]

Discussion on the first look (and general) of the H21.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92223

[tkrandall]

Is this essentailly an updated HR-20 without OTA support (ATSC tuner)?

[PoitNarf]

Is this essentailly an updated HR-20 without OTA support (ATSC tuner)?

No, it's basically an updated H20 without OTA as there is no recording capability.

[tkrandall]

No, it's basically an updated H20 without OTA as there is no recording capability.

Oops - my bad! I mis-read the model.

[Stuart Sweet]

There is also an ethernet port, though it's currently unused.

[MikeR7]

Any idea when these might be available to the general public? And do you think they might have a trade out program that you could send them back a H20 for an H21, black would look better in our bedroom than the silver one, and I don't have a need for 5 HD boxes.

[Earl Bonovich]

Any idea when these might be available to the general public? And do you think they might have a trade out program that you could send them back a H20 for an H21, black would look better in our bedroom than the silver one, and I don't have a need for 5 HD boxes.

No definitive date on a release time frame.
As for a "trade in"... I doubt it, but you never know.

[Milominderbinder2]

For someone used to recording, replay, stopping while you go to the lou, etc., this is not the one. Once the DVR genie is out of the bottle, it does not go back.

But for someone ordering a "2 Room Setup, I think that the H21 will be the basic receiver over time out-pacing and then replacing the D12.

The only real hardware addition in the H21 over the H20 is it's Ethernet port...

- Craig

[Earl Bonovich]

The only real hardware addition in the H21 over the H20 is it's Ethernet port...


IIRC, the H20 didn't have a COAX-Digital Out

[veryoldschool]

IIRC, the H20 didn't have a COAX-Digital Out
You do "RC".
The H21 seems much quicker responding to the remote than the HR-20, but as Craig noted, it's hard to change from using a DVR.

[Spanky_Partain]

No front panel USB either, only the back has the USB port. Not sure if the H20 has a front panel USB port though.

[HDTVsportsfan]

This unit runs much cooler than the H20 as well.

[MIAMI1683]

This unit runs much cooler than the H20 as well. Even still no DVR function and an ethernet port that is not turned on. Not enough for me to switch

[Stuart Sweet]

Actually H21 runs so cool that I can't tell any difference in temperature when it's running or not running.

As far as the ethernet port, I'd be very surprised if it stayed turned off for long, the only question is what it will be used for.

[bonscott87]

It is by far the fastest guide I have seen on any DirecTV receiver.

As for not being a DVR...there are still many people that don't want a DVR or only want one DVR but don't want one on secondary TVs. Remember that the H21 will be the "HD entry level" receiver like the H20. The one you get for free. Many people sign up and get the free boxes and then get a DVR later if they want.

Me personally, I'll find good use for it during football season since I watch Sunday Ticket live and don't record anything. Being a non DVR it is faster with channel changes and I hope the Interactive stuff is faster as well. And will work great with PIP on my TV with the HR20 should I want to watch multiple games at once.

[JeffBowser]

I don't like the missing ATSC tuner. DirecTV broadcasting locals in HD or no, the option to flip to OTA in the event of a rain storm, or other outtage by DirecTV is invaluable. I take my reflector down before a hurricane, OTA is a must for me, I'd rather not have to have two boxes.

[veryoldschool]

New TVs have the tuner and there is still the H20 for those that need an ATSC tuner. :)

[JeffBowser]

Not all new TV's do (I guess most now, though), but they are not all 5th generation tuners, which do wonders for multi-path situations. My H20-600 is one of the best ATSC tuners I have ever seen. I'm gonna hang onto that box until it dies of ripe old age.

[veryoldschool]

Not all new TV's do (I guess most now, though), but they are not all 5th generation tuners, which do wonders for multi-path situations. My H20-600 is one of the best ATSC tuners I have ever seen. I'm gonna hang onto that box until it dies of ripe old age.
Agree... [My TV has the same tuner] and "old age" may be heat.

[Thaedron]

To fuel the rumor mill...

What are the chances that the ethernet port on the H21 could be for streaming video from a networked HR21 (once that is eventually announced)?

This is of course only my own speculative (and hopeful) view that with MRV having been rumored about for awhile, the H21 would appear to be a good solid base platform to be an MRV "client" as well as the base HD receiver.

[lwilli201]

How many of these units will be sent out for field trial? :)

[Spanky_Partain]

To fuel the rumor mill...

What are the chances that the ethernet port on the H21 could be for streaming video from a networked HR21?

This is of course only my own speculative (and hopeful) view that with MRV having been rumored about for awhile, the H21 would appear to be a good solid base platform to be an MRV "client" as well as the base HD receiver.

That would be a cool feature! Guess we will have to wait and see!

[houskamp]

Well I was one of the people originaly chosen for testing.. I had to turn it down due to the lack of OTA.. To me this has always been a major feature of D* boxes and when it first was added in and integrated all into one guide I concidered it to be one of the best moves they ever made.. Sad to think they are now going away from that idea... just my 2cents worth..

[Ken984]

Having to switch the tv to tuner and then switch the HT receiver to tv is not a huge deal but it is much less convenient than having the OTA in the guide with the sat channels. Both of my HD tvs have atsc in them but still i think taking the tuner out of the receiver is a bean counter move.

[Stuart Sweet]

I know that OTA is important to some people which is why I would suggest going down to your local Circuit City and getting an H20 which should cost you about a penny after rebate if you're one of those people.

There are a lot of reasons that OTA wouldn't be included, one of them being cost, another being reliability/heat management, another being some people just don't use it.

[P Smith]

Could you add a picture of download screen or post those numbers ?

[Doug Brott]

I'm curious of the actual percentage of ATSC users. Remember, OTA is a non-revenue feature that costs DIRECTV (a relatively small fixed/maintenance cost). A lower-cost box could entice more customers. I would not be in the least surprised if the H21 became the default "free" box for new customers or folks wishing to upgrade to HD.

[directvfreak]

Looks like somebody has an iPhone (poitnarf). Look at his front and back pictures on the review.

[Doug Brott]

Could you add a picture of download screen or post those numbers ?

H21-200 (http://www.redh.com/dtv/index.php?r=H21-200)

[jmunick1]

Why does everyone think they took out the OTA? It doesn't make sense to me unless they are trying to force everyone to use their HD locals (Which is a pretty lame ploy). I've used my OTA as a backup on several occasions when DTV goes out because of a storm.

I don't understand why they would get rid of the OTA, hopefully someone can add some insight.

Also, the ethernet port will probably be used for VOD since from what I hear VOD will be a streaming service over the internet.

[Stuart Sweet]

There is no RF connector for an antenna, and no apparent ATSC tuner hardware inside. There is no antenna setup screen, and the field test team was told there was no ATSC tuner. I think it's a safe bet... there's no ATSC tuner, and no OTA.

VOD would probably require a hard drive for buffering, so I don't know if that's the reason for the Ethernet port.

[houskamp]

I'm curious of the actual percentage of ATSC users. Remember, OTA is a non-revenue feature that costs DIRECTV (a relatively small fixed/maintenance cost). A lower-cost box could entice more customers. I would not be in the least surprised if the H21 became the default "free" box for new customers or folks wishing to upgrade to HD.
Time for a poll! :hurah:

[RobertE]

I'm curious of the actual percentage of ATSC users. Remember, OTA is a non-revenue feature that costs DIRECTV (a relatively small fixed/maintenance cost). A lower-cost box could entice more customers. I would not be in the least surprised if the H21 became the default "free" box for new customers or folks wishing to upgrade to HD.

Just from my install history, around here its 40 to 1 in favor of no ATSC. A lot of people simply don't have an antenna on their roof anymore. Or if they do there is no line running from it, its about to fall off the roof, or its missing a lot of the elements.

[Doug Brott]

I don't understand why they would get rid of the OTA, hopefully someone can add some insight.

I'd say $$$ is the the only reason. It costs DIRECTV to supply the ATSC tuner(s) to allow the consumer to gain access to a free service. New televisions are required to have an ATSC tuner now (IIRC), so there are should be alternate free options for most people. There is zero direct benefit to DIRECTV to provide the ATSC tuners. As long as there is a product that makes ATSC available then all should be good. Many people don't want ATSC, so two distinct boxes makes sense to me.

[BruceS]

No OTA will make this receiver unacceptable to me and a large number of other D* customers.

D* has no local HD in my area and many others throughout the country.

This will change to some extent once D10 and D11 both become operational, but by the time HD locals are provided for all areas, this receiver will long be obsolete.

[Doug Brott]

Just from my install history, around here its 40 to 1 in favor of no ATSC. A lot of people simply don't have an antenna on their roof anymore. Or if they do there is no line running from it, its about to fall off the roof, or its missing a lot of the elements.

Wow! I took a WAG and thought it was 3:2 but never even considered 40:1. That would mean that DIRECTV has spent 40x what was needed on ATSC tuners.

[Earl Bonovich]

A conversation from last weekend, at a block party.

Two of the neighboor guys, where talking "bad" about a house that we could see. Saying the guy must be cheap or something, because he had an Antenna on his house... (aka why not just get cable or sat).

When I heard this I quickly jumped into the conversation... (and made $20).
I bet them, the guy had an HD TV... And explained to them why.

We then walked over there, and I pointed out the nice 5LNB DirecTV dish that he had (which I noticed a long time ago).

.....

There simply are a LOT of people that don't want the "Radio Shack" antenna on their roof for so many reasons.

I purposely installed mine in one of my attics, so that it was outside.
Partially for the "look" of the house on the outside.. (Seriously).

"Radio Shack" antennas are just not common any more, and have not been for a very very long time. So there are a lot of poeple that have been waiting for the Locals to come down via SAT...

So they don't have to use the Antenna.

(And yes, I fully understand the argument that you get more, the subchannels, and totally agree... and hence why I have OTA connected to the HR20's).... but I would bet (the $20 I won last weekend), that VAST majority (and I am talking way up there) users that want HD, are not worried about the OTA ones... they simply want it the easiest to get it...

There are also the HOA's an other organizations, which try EXTREMELY hard to now allow antenna's (and sat-dishes for that matter) to be installed.

[Thaedron]

I think it's a safe bet... there's no ATSC tuner, and no OTA.


As long as the HR21 will still have an ATSC tuner, I'm not too worried about the H21 not having one. I agree that locals during a sever thunderstorm are necessary to have and OTA is the backup to sat, but not every location in the house needs to have both sat and OTA option.

[veryoldschool]

Another way to "see it": when HD was first coming out, there was little content. OTA was a big feature [to the few D* HD channels]. Now there are [in some markets] HD locals & the new HD channels coming soon.
This is a major change from not so long ago.
More people want HD & are getting HD TVs, some are just looking to change over from something like a D-11 [simple basic tuner] to HD. D* has come up with a basic HD box.
This isn't to replace the 20 series, but to be a cheap [read able to be free with rebate] additional box.

[houskamp]

Either way I hope they continue to offer either two (with/without ota) or at least include it in thier highline boxes..
by the way heres the poll: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92293
:D

[rsteinfe]

OTA is important to me because:

1) I have a projector, not a TV set. No tuner there.

2) While D* does provide HD locals in the Buffalo DMA, the CBS station is part of the LIN group, with which D* has yet to reach a HD agreement, so OTA is the only way I can get HD CBS.

3) I watch a lot of PBS, and D* isn't providing a local HD PBS signal.

I'm currently using an HR20-100 for HD, and was delighted to discover that the old VHF-UHF antenna in my attic worked great with it.

[Jeremy W]

An Ethernet port! Of course they would put an Ethernet port on there. This just further cements the H20's position as the red-headed stepchild of DirecTV HD receivers. :(

And of course they couldn't choose me to test the H21. :(

[Doug Brott]

Jeremy, it may be offered as a "free" upgrade once it hits the retail market. Don't lose hope yet.

Besides, the Ethernet port isn't active yet, so even if you had it it was still not be doing anything. :)

[Jeremy W]

Jeremy, it may be offered as a "free" upgrade once it hits the retail market. Don't lose hope yet.
That would be great if it happened, but I'm not holding my breath.
Besides, the Ethernet port isn't active yet, so even if you had it it was still not be doing anything. :)
It's much better to have an Ethernet port that is "not active" than to have one that is "not there" :)

[GeorgeLV]

I don't like the missing ATSC tuner. DirecTV broadcasting locals in HD or no, the option to flip to OTA in the event of a rain storm, or other outtage by DirecTV is invaluable. I take my reflector down before a hurricane, OTA is a must for me, I'd rather not have to have two boxes.

Um, isn't the OTA functionality disabled by all of the DirecTV branded HD receivers when they don't have a satellite signal anyways?

[veryoldschool]

Um, isn't the OTA functionality disabled by all of the DirecTV branded HD receivers when they don't have a satellite signal anyways?
Yes, BUT: if it was active & you lose the SAT feed BUT have not lost power, it still works.

[VeniceDre]

I think it's a step back. Having OTA and SAT in one guide is a big plus for me. Having to switch over to the TV's tuner would suck... And BTW My two and a half old HD RPTVs do not have Digital tuners built in.

[Surveyor40]

The H21 is not a unit for me, especially without an OTA tuner. Yes, the unit would get locals and HD from Satellite. But, only from my primary TV market (Chicago, Il.). With an off air antenna I am able to receive TV stations from the Milwaukee Wi and Rockford Il. area. This is especially important during Football season (College and Pro).

While watching TV I use the PIP feature in my Sony and Samsung TV a lot. Both TV's only have one OTA digital & a second analogue TV tuner. Without the D* receiver OTA digital tuner, I could not have 2 digital HD TV stations on screen at the same time. This would be an unacceptable feature/performance loss.

[GeorgeLV]

Yes, BUT: if it was active & you lose the SAT feed BUT have not lost power, it still works.

So, would you say it's a 50/50 shot? Or is it more or less likely that OTA through a D* receiver would be useful during a storm?

...

In any case, I don't see the fuss about DirecTV discontinuing OTA on non-DVRs as all new TVs have ATSC tuners built-in.

[PoitNarf]

Looks like somebody has an iPhone (poitnarf). Look at his front and back pictures on the review.

Good eye ;)

[Doug Brott]

And BTW My two and a half old HD RPTVs do not have Digital tuners built in.

I don't doubt this for a second, but NEW Televisions require this now:

From the FCC (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.html)
The FCC requires all televisions manufactured or imported into the United States after March 1, 2007, to incorporate digital tuners.

So, it is true that the requirement is a relatively new development, but it is there nonetheless.

[MikeW]

I'd be another sub disappointed in the lack of OTA.

1) Having OTA integrated in the guide is very helpful. My TV does not have a guide

2) Switching between source is a PITA on most setups. I've not had much success with HDMI delivering a reliable signal through the TV onto the A/V receiver. I'd have to switch the TV and stereo just to channel surf.

3) Subchannels

4) Most markets, when they have HD locals, do not have the full slate of channels available. PBS, CW and other indys are usually left out.

Without having a device to handle buffering, I can't see the ethernet port used for anything more than replacing a phone line connection for PPV.

Here's an idea for the D* enginering guys...
Why not put an SD or Micro SD card into the unit to use for buffering. They come very cheap and could allow for video streaming/buffering without a full DVR setup.

[Jeremy W]

So, would you say it's a 50/50 shot? Or is it more or less likely that OTA through a D* receiver would be useful during a storm?
The OTA tuner is enabled once the receiver downloads the information from the satellite during bootup. After that, the OTA tuner is enabled until the receiver is restarted. You can pull the satellite cable off after bootup, and as long as the receiver isn't restarted the OTA will continue working.

[veryoldschool]

So, would you say it's a 50/50 shot? Or is it more or less likely that OTA through a D* receiver would be useful during a storm?
It's all power [loss] related. I had my account suspended for a while and still had OTA on my H-20 [and guide info because the SAT feed was there], but I never unplugged it or lost power. That is the "key", if power doesn't go down than it will work, but most storms can have a power glitch and cause the unit to reset. Then without SAT feed, it is useless until it comes back.

[bakers12]

My wife would not be happy without our OTA subchannels and when she's not happy, nobody is happy. :nono:

I got a battery backup for the TV and HR-20 anyhow because those 1-second power outages cause a 15-minute reset of the DVR.

[VeniceDre]

I don't doubt this for a second, but NEW Televisions require this now:

From the FCC (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.html)


So, it is true that the requirement is a relatively new development, but it is there nonetheless.

Yeah I know about the FCC mandate but a lot of people are fine with their 2+ year old HD TVs that don't have tuners built in. It would be kind of like forcing people to get another box if they end up with a H21.

That said, I know a lot of people don't really care about OTA in my market... Most of my HT installs don't ask for it unless they are sports freaks, have DirecTV and want KCAL 9 HD. Time Warner transmits KCAL 9 HD on their system here so it's not a problem for those customers.

I think it would be helpful if DirecTV would start pushing more CW, MYTV, and independents in certain markets. Then OTA wouldn't be an issue, 'cept for PBS.

[pman_jim]

I just have to reply as one who currently does not get HD channels via D*, and does use an OTA antenna for the HD locals, but I would still be interested in the H21.

I currently use the OTA antenna for my HR-20's when watching sports broadcast over the local channels, and the current H20 is sitting in the bedroom where the wife retreats to when I'm watching sports. She could care less about the local channels being in HD, and I try not to watch TV in bed (and if MRV ever becomes reality, the ethernet port would be put to great use!).

The H21 would also be useful in the guest room.

Just my 2 cents, as one who could live without having the ATSC tuner in one box.

[carl6]

I have OTA fed into my HR20 and directly to my TV. It is extremelly rare that I actually tune to a channel that I am not able to get via satellite (I do have mpeg4 locals). DirecTV does carry most of my locals (although only the "big 4" in HD). There is only one HD ota broadcast that I do not get via DirecTV (PBS), but I do get the SD feed of that.

In testing the H21 (only for a few days so far) I have not missed ota at all so far.

I would hope that going forward, both the H20 and H21, and both the HR20 and HR21, would be available. I don't know what the HR21 will have or not have, but in the case of the H20/21 I would like to see the H21 as the lower/no cost offering, with the H21 being a higher cost option if OTA was important.

Should the HR21 be the DVR equivalent of the H21 (i.e., no OTA), then the same is true there. Make the HR21 the default with the HR20 being available for those that want/need the "added features".

Carl

[VeniceDre]

Should the HR21 be the DVR equivalent of the H21 (i.e., no OTA), then the same is true there. Make the HR21 the default with the HR20 being available for those that want/need the "added features".

Carl

Does anyone know for sure if the HR21 will not have an OTA tuner?

My worry is that they will eventually cease production of the HR20-700 for a HR21 without an OTA tuner... That would be a big mistake in my eyes.

[Jeremy W]

Does anyone know for sure if the HR21 will not have an OTA tuner?
Now that we know for sure the H21 doesn't, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the HR21 won't either.

[carl6]

Does anyone know for sure if the HR21 will not have an OTA tuner?

My worry is that they will eventually cease production of the HR20-700 for a HR21 without an OTA tuner... That would be a big mistake in my eyes.

I absolutely do NOT know. I was only speculating based on what I do know about the H20 / H21.

I agree with your concern, and certainly hope that both a receiver, and a DVR, with the ATSC OTA tuner remain available, even if it is as an extra cost option.

Carl

[RunnerFL]

I don't like the missing ATSC tuner. DirecTV broadcasting locals in HD or no, the option to flip to OTA in the event of a rain storm, or other outtage by DirecTV is invaluable. I take my reflector down before a hurricane, OTA is a must for me, I'd rather not have to have two boxes.

I'm with you on this one. Just yesterday I had 0 signal via satellite due to heavy rains, turned over to OTA and bingo, perfect picture.

[RunnerFL]

New TVs have the tuner and there is still the H20 for those that need an ATSC tuner. :)

Sure, but why switch to your OTA input on your TV when you could just change the channel on your receiver? :)

[vansmack]

Clearly in the minority here, but I do have an ATSC Tuner built into my TV, and I use that instead of the one that's built into my H20 for PIP purposes when the Tivo is recording 2 shows (Don't judge....I watch a lot of sports). HD Locals are very rarely out in SF (here's to nice weather) so it's not really a backup issue.

Therefore, if getting rid of the OTA Tuner in the H21 that I wouldn't use means that I get an ethernet port that I might be able to use in the future, I consider it a fair trade.

[Doug Brott]

HD Locals are very rarely out in SF (here's to nice weather) so it's not really a backup issue.

+1

I think that I've had exactly 3 less than 5 minute outages in the 10½ years I've lived here.

[veryoldschool]

Now we know the H-21 doesn't have an OTA tuner, but this is to add to the D* product line and not to replace the H-20, as far as I know.
Those that want the OTA will still be getting the H-20 and those that don't feel they have a use for it will get the H-21.
Well that's the way I see it.
Two flavors, with & without [nuts].

[jwd45244]

+1

I think that I've had exactly 3 less than 5 minute outages in the 10½ years I've lived here.

You guys don't get rain fade cause you don't get rain. Pleasanton is nearly a desert much of the time. :D

[RobertE]

You guys don't get rain fade cause you don't get rain. Pleasanton is nearly a desert much of the time. :D

The way the weather here has been recently, we don't get rain either. :(

As I look out the window at my brown yard. Did have to weed-wack the weeds in the driveway, didn't touch the yard. :(

[Jeremy W]

Those that want the OTA will still be getting the H-20 and those that don't feel they have a use for it will get the H-21.
That would be a solid theory, aside from the fact that the H20 doesn't have an Ethernet port. It's not just OTA/no OTA, it's OTA without Ethernet/no OTA with Ethernet.

[Doug Brott]

You guys don't get rain fade cause you don't get rain. Pleasanton is nearly a desert much of the time. :D

:D .. Maybe not quite a desert, but yeah, pretty much no rain from middle/end of March to early December. :D

[veryoldschool]

That would be a solid theory, aside from the fact that the H20 doesn't have an Ethernet port. It's not just OTA/no OTA, it's OTA without Ethernet/no OTA with Ethernet.
An Ethernet connector not activated, and no memory for VOD, so yeah it's there but for what?
The H-21 is a basic HD MPEG-4 receiver.
Maybe the connector will do something later or maybe the board came with it and it was cheaper to leave on like the 2nd one on the HR-20-100.
As far as what works: one with OTA & one without.
Some feel like a nut and some don't. [plain and peanut]

[bwaldron]

Yes, exactly the same here. OTA is invaluable during storm season.

On the other hand, I've been waiting for the H20 to be SWM-compatible before I pick up another receiver. The H21 working with the SWM out of the box is a big plus, though.


I don't like the missing ATSC tuner. DirecTV broadcasting locals in HD or no, the option to flip to OTA in the event of a rain storm, or other outtage by DirecTV is invaluable. I take my reflector down before a hurricane, OTA is a must for me, I'd rather not have to have two boxes.

[azarby]

I don't like the missing ATSC tuner. DirecTV broadcasting locals in HD or no, the option to flip to OTA in the event of a rain storm, or other outtage by DirecTV is invaluable. I take my reflector down before a hurricane, OTA is a must for me, I'd rather not have to have two boxes.

We don't get a lot rain here in Arizona, but last night, we had some pretty heavy stuff for 2 hours and during that time we lost several of the sats for up to 15-20 minutes at a time. The local OTA save the day.

bob

[bonscott87]

I agree with most of you on OTA, I want it (and need it for some channels). But we must remember we are the *vast* minority. Earl is right as it the installer that said it was 40:1. Several of my friends with HD still don't have antennas. Most reason is:

1) Wife won't let me put one up (or they don't want it)
2) Why do I need some 30 year old technology? Cable/sat should provide that for me
3) OTA? Antenna? What's that?

Seriously, hardly anybody uses antenna's. We are not the same as 99% of the population out there.

The thing OTA does for DirecTV is increase support costs like crazy. And at no value return. So I can see why the H21 doesn't have one. But I sure hope the upcoming HR21 has one, being a DVR and all.

[Jeremy W]

Maybe the connector will do something later or maybe the board came with it and it was cheaper to leave on like the 2nd one on the HR-20-100.
Right, but the connector is there. Until we get word that it's like the HR20-100's second port, I'm going to assume that it has a future use.

[Doug Brott]

Maybe the Ethernet port is for MRV

/drooling :)

[PoitNarf]

Maybe the Ethernet port is for MRV

/drooling :)

MRV and/or HMC integration is my guess. I agree that VOD would be pretty hard to pull off with the lack of a hard drive.

[tfederov]

I know that OTA is important to some people which is why I would suggest going down to your local Circuit City and getting an H20 which should cost you about a penny after rebate if you're one of those people.

There are a lot of reasons that OTA wouldn't be included, one of them being cost, another being reliability/heat management, another being some people just don't use it.

The benefit of OTA to me is during a storm when the satellite is knocked out (happened a few times to us this year). I also don't see DIRECTV ever carrying the subchannels which we use again for weather updates, etc. OTA was one of the big reasons I begged for SWM. Once I got it I was able to re-use my 2nd wire for OTA.

[Draconis]

Blast, FCC ID A3LMM03BH21-200 pulls up nothing on the FCC website. I was hoping to find their test reports on the unit and maybe some PDF's of the manual.

Does anyone else know another site where you can lookup the FCC ID?

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

[Nofences]

Honestly, I can understand the H21 NOT having the OTA, but the HR21 without it makes it a dramatic step back from the HR20. The built in ATSC tuner in my TV's will not record the incoming signal. There is still a large portion of the population that does not recieve HD Locals inluding the entire S.E. part of Washington and N.E. part of Oregon. We are approx. 110 on the DMA rankings and I can't forsee D* or E* getting in a real big hurry to provide them, even though there are almost 400K people in this area. I realize that is only considered a "town" in CA and not a city, but D* seems to pick and choose which DMA's to go after, they don't exactly go in order. So I would imagine DirecTV 11 would have to launch before we have any hope of getting MPEG4 locals. 85% of the stuff I record on my DVR comes from OTA. A DVR without OTA is like a car stereo that only gets FM, while AM is not used a lot, it still serves a vital purpose.
I could do without OTA on a non-DVR HD Reciever, but not on a DVR.

[kevinwmsn]

I could see the H21 using that ethernet port for MRV. That would be nice for people who really need just one DVR but would like to watch those shows in different rooms. I would like to have 2 HR20s(trade a tivo in for a hr20) in the living room and just a H21 in the bedroom that could watch shows from either reciever. I am just not sure about it with VOD, the HR20 got a hard drive to buffer the video. I don't know where it would buffer it. Not having OTA would bother a lot of folks on this forum, the HR21 would need one with it being a DVR.

How fast is the H21 changing channels(channel surfing)?
Are there any plans for the media stuff that the hr20 has will be in the H20?
Can it out multiple connections at once like the hr20?

[PoitNarf]

How fast is the H21 changing channels(channel surfing)?

Slightly less than 2 seconds changing from SD to SD, around 4 seconds going to a HD channel. I'm a guide surfer anyways, so the channel change times seem sufficient to me.

Are there any plans for the media stuff that the hr20 has will be in the H20?

Unknown at this time, but I would not be surprised if it got added later on down the road.

Can it out multiple connections at once like the hr20?

I have not tested it myself, but I'm fairly sure the answer is yes. I'm using both sets of RCA audio outs at the same time.

[TheRatPatrol]

I agree with everyone here, it should have an OTA tuner. Maybe D* is doing this so people have to subscribe to their locals via sat for the extra 5.95 a month.

Still don't get why they include a DVR remote control with a non-DVR receiver. I would find myself hitting rewind or pause using that remote and receiver.

[drx792]

I agree with everyone here, it should have an OTA tuner. Maybe D* is doing this so people have to subscribe to their locals via sat for the extra 5.95 a month.

Still don't get why they include a DVR remote control with a non-DVR receiver. I would find myself hitting rewind or pause using that remote and receiver.

Huh?? since when was D* charging for locals still. Locals are included in all base packages now IIRC.

[PoitNarf]

Still don't get why they include a DVR remote control with a non-DVR receiver. I would find myself hitting rewind or pause using that remote and receiver.

One remote to rule them all so to speak. Far easier for the users and the support personal when there is basically only 1 style of remote. Besides with the ethernet port on the H21, the possibility of at least some of the DVR related buttons being used at some point remains fairly high imo.

My H20 came with the same style remote (RC24) as well btw.

[Earl Bonovich]

Huh?? since when was D* charging for locals still. Locals are included in all base packages now IIRC.

If you call and request, you can get a package with out the locals.

But I highly doubt the exclusion of ATSC tuner in the H21 was to drive up sales of the packages with locals.

As with multiple receivers in the homes now, I am sure not all of them are goign to be HD, let alone have an ATSC tuner in them...

[Earl Bonovich]

I agree with everyone here, it should have an OTA tuner. Maybe D* is doing this so people have to subscribe to their locals via sat for the extra 5.95 a month.

Still don't get why they include a DVR remote control with a non-DVR receiver. I would find myself hitting rewind or pause using that remote and receiver.

The remote control included: RC64... is based of the RC Series of remote, that was in fact... designed for the D10 when it was first introduced.

It was not introduced with the R15 or HR20.

The Pause/Play controls at the top of the remote, where designed for VCR/DVD usage

[TheRatPatrol]

Ok, you guys got me on both points. Sorry. :grin:

But lets hope the HR21 has OTA tuners in it. :D

[carl6]

Can it out multiple connections at once like the hr20?

Yes. I am using both component and composite at the same time. Works just fine.

Carl

[Groundhog45]

I assume that if you ordered an HD receiver off the D* web site, you would still get an H20, since the H21 is still in testing. They still give you the option to order an OTA antenna with it.

[bwaldron]

Seriously, hardly anybody uses antenna's. We are not the same as 99% of the population out there.

The thing OTA does for DirecTV is increase support costs like crazy. And at no value return. So I can see why the H21 doesn't have one. But I sure hope the upcoming HR21 has one, being a DVR and all.

Yes, you're correct on both counts. While OTA definitely is important to me, I can easily see the case for dropping it from the basic HD receiver. Given the role such a receiver would play in my home, I could live without it for the most part.

I do think it would be a mistake to drop it from any future (higher-end) HD DVRs. It does add value for a segment of their customer base (a segment which is probably bringing in more revenue than the average customer).

Yes, there are support issues, and the guide data infrastructure to maintain. Of course, supporting OTA pales next to supporting the networking/media features ;)

[Earl Bonovich]

Of course, supporting OTA pales next to supporting the networking/media features ;)

Pales in which direction?

I think networking and media features, may actually be easier to support...
As OTA has enviornmental factors, items not easily checkable (such as direction of antenna), can't easily send someone up on the roof to change something

[bwaldron]

Pales in which direction?

I think networking and media features, may actually be easier to support...
As OTA has enviornmental factors, items not easily checkable (such as direction of antenna), can't easily send someone up on the roof to change something

Heh, good point.

I was thinking that supporting the network/media sharing features would be more difficult, simply due to the sheer amount of variability in customers' setups/equipment and the relative lack of networking knowledge among the customer base.

However, I realize that those same factors do in fact apply to getting OTA reception working in many situations.

And networking (VOD) definitely is more central to DirecTV's plans ...

[convem24]

MRV and/or HMC integration is my guess. I agree that VOD would be pretty hard to pull off with the lack of a hard drive.

I read an article that MRV would actually pull VOD material through the HR20/HR21 to any MRV client receivers which means the ethernet port could be used for both if you had an HR20/HR21 as part of your system.

[Jeremy W]

I read an article that MRV would actually pull VOD material through the HR20/HR21 to any MRV client receivers
Where did you read this?

[uscboy]

FWIW, add another disappointed vote about no OTA in a new D* box... which has
to be read that D* is going that route from now on... hope I'm wrong.

It's a nominal cost and there are so many instances, even with the new ATSC
tuner rule for new televisions, where it is nice to have in the STB.

Won't even mention over compression of signals... at some point they'll over
subscribe even the new sats like they're doing with their current ones.

Oh well, can't say I don't understand why they're doing it... just wish they weren't.

[Teronzhul]

It is simply a smart business decision to remove ota. In the last 18 months I've done perhaps 4 or 5 HD installs where the customer had, or was intending to eventually use an OTA antenna to receive their locals.

I am not in a market with sat delivered locals even, but customers for the most part would prefer to simply wait for sat delivered HD than to put up an "ugly" antenna.

The posters on this forum are by far in the minority. The average customer is more interested in stretching the picture to fill their nice new HDTV than they are in getting actual HD and preserving aspect ratios.

[houskamp]

I'm just surpriized They are bringing out yet another box..
Seem's it would be easier to sell and support just 4, SD dvr/nondvr and HD dvr/non dvr...
how many different boxes do they have now?

[Teronzhul]

Except that this probably will end up replacing the H20 once supply wears out. Then they will still have only 4 products to support. And as others have said we may be looking at the eventual successor to the D series and eliminating all mpeg2 only receivers. Then they would have a product line of only 2, and they could get off their behinds and release the HMC.

The only thing it is missing were it to become D* standard receiver is a modulated rf output. I still do installs every day with tvs that have no input other than coax.

[bwaldron]

I agree that most people prefer not to deal with OTA. That doesn't necessarily mean, however, that eliminating the option from all receivers/DVRs is such a simple/smart decision. The people that use OTA (such as those who frequent the forums here) are some of DirecTV's best customers (in terms of loyalty and most likely in terms of monthy bills).

If there is a "basic" tier of equipment without OTA and a higher-end (DVR) tier that includes it, I'm OK with that. But if all newer DVRs from D* are to eliminate the OTA option, I'm less than pleased.

It is simply a smart business decision to remove ota. In the last 18 months I've done perhaps 4 or 5 HD installs where the customer had, or was intending to eventually use an OTA antenna to receive their locals.

I am not in a market with sat delivered locals even, but customers for the most part would prefer to simply wait for sat delivered HD than to put up an "ugly" antenna.

The posters on this forum are by far in the minority. The average customer is more interested in stretching the picture to fill their nice new HDTV than they are in getting actual HD and preserving aspect ratios.

[bonscott87]

I'm just surpriized They are bringing out yet another box..
Seem's it would be easier to sell and support just 4, SD dvr/nondvr and HD dvr/non dvr...
how many different boxes do they have now?

Well the H21 will replace the H20. So what they have will be 4 lines:

H20/H21
HR20/HR21
R15/R16
D12

With the newer ones replacing the older ones eventually.

The receiver I'm waiting for most is the R16 actually so I can use both tuners. I'd replace a DirecTivo I have the works just great but I only have one line in that room and can't get a 2nd line so only 1 tuner right now. R16 will be SWM capable and thus I can have 2 tuners in that room. :D

[veryoldschool]

Well the H21 will replace the H20. So what they have will be 4 lines:

H20/H21
HR20/HR21
R15/R16
D12

With the newer ones replacing the older ones eventually.

The receiver I'm waiting for most is the R16 actually so I can use both tuners. I'd replace a DirecTivo I have the works just great but I only have one line in that room and can't get a 2nd line so only 1 tuner right now. R16 will be SWM capable and thus I can have 2 tuners in that room. :D
Why do you say the H21 will replace the H20? My guess to the product line:
H-20
HR-20
H-21
HR-21?
All would be MPEG-4
Why still "sell/lease" a receiver the doesn't handle MPEG-4?

[Earl Bonovich]

Why do you say the H21 will replace the H20? My guess to the product line:
H-20
HR-20
H-21
HR-21?
All would be MPEG-4
Why still "sell/lease" a receiver the doesn't handle MPEG-4?

D12 will be the main SD non-dvr product.
Since SD isn't changing to MPEG-4...

There is still a need/want for just an SD product, thus no need for the expense on the 5-SAT tuners, and MPEG-4 decoder.

[Stuart Sweet]

For what it's worth, having spent some quality time with this receiver, I can say it's very well done. I know there's no OTA and that's going to be a sticking point for some people. For a lot of people it won't be.

Another important use of this receiver is in bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. This receiver is perfect for this use, it runs very cool and is probably easy to rack mount. With SWM it becomes much easier and cheaper to wire than older receivers, too.

I agree that the MPEG2/SD lines probably have a limited life but the D12 is probably very very cheap to make and there is probably going to be MPEG2 programming on DIRECTV for a long time, probably long after analog TV stops broadcasting.

I know for me, if I were doing a new install, I'd use HD-only receivers for all the rooms even if they have SD TV's. This receiver does a great job when hooked up to an SD TV as well, the HD channels can be letterboxed, cropped, or stretched to fit.

[Homebrew101]

So, would you say it's a 50/50 shot? Or is it more or less likely that OTA through a D* receiver would be useful during a storm?

...

In any case, I don't see the fuss about DirecTV discontinuing OTA on non-DVRs as all new TVs have ATSC tuners built-in.

Not all of us have new TV's. I have 3 HD sets but the main one in our living room, being our 1st HD set is 4 years old and has no tuner. We would like to keep using this set as long as it isn't broken so OTA is essential especially since D* only carries NBC, ABC and Fox in HD here. With OTA, I get CBS, CW, PBS, another small independent (which I forget what network it is) in HD plus many sub channels including local weather which of course the Weather Channel doesn't really have a local forecast/radar for my city.

I kind of look at this as D* practically forced me to install OTA once upon a time in order to compete with cable and now(if the H20 is discontinued) they will be abandoning those of us early adapters to HD that have become comfortable with an antennea.

There were quite a few headaches intitially putting up, grounding and aiming an antennea, trimming branches back, low power signals until the locals had to go full power etc. Maybe you never had to put your antennea on a 10 foot mast strapped to your chimney then using a cell phone called the wife to check each local station's reception until you found the "sweet" spot where you caould actually get a signal from all locals. It was a royal PITA but worth it the last 4plus years.

[MikeR7]

I don't think anyone has said that the H20 won't be supported, and there will probably be quite a few of them around for some time either from DTV or on e-bay. I might even have one or two available myself as soon as I replace them with H-21's.

[Earl Bonovich]

I don't think anyone has said that the H20 won't be supported, and there will probably be quite a few of them around for some time either from DTV or on e-bay. I might even have one or two available myself as soon as I replace them with H-21's.

If they become an "ebay" commodity...
I know I will recall the two I gave my buddy, and the 6 or so from the neighboors...

And upgrade them all to H21's (since none of them have, nor want, OTA)... and I could make a good penny off them.. :D

[TBoneit]

re: Mpeg2 SD at some point in time the benefits of converting the remaining MPEG2 only receivers will outweigh the costs and they'll do a free swap. One benefit is more channels on the same transponder. Thus freeing up capacity they will mosy likely need in the future despite the two new satellites. Possibly cheaper Dishes?

Second thing any receiver with USB could receive a software update to allow a USB external drive to allow conversion to a DVR.

Or maybe network attached storage or Start putting in Esata contoller and port. Simplify the hardware line. You want a non DVR H21, You want a DVR H21 + slimline Hard Drive case that sites underneath and Voila a H21Plus. You decide you really wanted a DVR, Only send the Drive assembly and not end up getting back a receiver that must be refubed and may be cosmeticly challenged. Got a DVR with a bad Drive, Keep your box and only exchange the drive assembly. The basic box shouls be much more reliabe than anything with a hard drive.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Tom Robertson]

40M receivers is a big free swap. :) and AFAIK MPEG4 does not have the huge savings for SD content as it does for HD, so I do not look forward to a massive standard receiver swap anytime soon.

And you will see the signs long before it starts. The first SD receiver to have MPEG4 capability will signal the seachange. Or when the last SD only receiver is shipped.

Cheers,
Tom

[Earl Bonovich]

re: Mpeg2 SD at some point in time the benefits of converting the remaining MPEG2 only receivers will outweigh the costs and they'll do a free swap. One benefit is more channels on the same transponder. Thus freeing up capacity they will mosy likely need in the future despite the two new satellites. Possibly cheaper Dishes?

Second thing any receiver with USB could receive a software update to allow a USB external drive to allow conversion to a DVR.

Or maybe network attached storage or Start putting in Esata contoller and port. Simplify the hardware line. You want a non DVR H21, You want a DVR H21 + slimline Hard Drive case that sites underneath and Voila a H21Plus. You decide you really wanted a DVR, Only send the Drive assembly and not end up getting back a receiver that must be refubed and may be cosmeticly challenged. Got a DVR with a bad Drive, Keep your box and only exchange the drive assembly. The basic box shouls be much more reliabe than anything with a hard drive.

Thoughts? Comments?

Not that simple...
Unless they have a larger CPU in there, then what is expected to be there.

The overhead of the USB storage, may prove to be too much.

As for including an eSATA...
The inclusion of all the other chipsets and busses necessary are costly... and drive the cost of the box up.

It would probably ultimately be cheaper (from DirecTV's point of view), for the semi-rare chance that someone is going to do that... to upgrade them to the current HD-DVR (With hard drive installed, and the dual tuners, ect)... then to include all those chipsets and parts, for a feature that will probably be utilized by very few people.

As if you had to pay $5.99 for the DVR functions, wouldn't you want the unit that can do TWO recordings at once, and had all the other DVR functions native?

Even if it cost you say $100 to upgrade (still probably cheaper then that hard drive you would have to add).

[NR4P]

I can certainly understand why they didn't include the OTA capability. Of course the tuner and jacks cost $$.

And for me, I "need" the OTA for a few reasons.
1. The summer storms in Florida do occassionally knock out the SAT signals from time to time. OTA never goes out unless the TV station goes out but then so does the SAT rebroadcast.
2. A lightning hit nearby once took out a LNB. So I lost my SD locals, glad I had OTA or I would have had no locals for nearly 2 weeks.
3. I live in an area where I get 20 plus extra stations on OTA. A secondary market identified in the H20 and HR20 that they can't offer legally via SAT but with a small rooftop antenna, I get them.

On the other hand, I think OTA causes them an awful lot of grief. All problems with the low channels on VHF not coming in on the HR20, then all the CE comments about OTA signal strength changing with each CE release, and then last but not least, the comparisions where people say the satellite HD quality isn't as good as the OTA HD quality on the locals by jumping back and forth between SAT and OTA channels.

I don't blame them for trying to lower costs, in particular on the customer support and engineering cost controls.. I hope they keep some receivers around with OTA tuners. Just in case, I guess I'll keep mine for a very long time.

[Earl Bonovich]

All problems with the low channels on VHF not coming in on the HR20

That has been fixed for over two months now.. (National release 0x15C)

[Jeremy W]

There is no cable company HD receiver that has an OTA tuner, but it's expected that a satellite company's HD receiver does. Why is this? Why do people act like it's the end of the world if DirecTV comes out with an HD receiver that doesn't have OTA? I honestly don't understand this.

[houskamp]

There is no cable company HD receiver that has an OTA tuner, but it's expected that a satellite company's HD receiver does. Why is this? Why do people act like it's the end of the world if DirecTV comes out with an HD receiver that doesn't have OTA? I honestly don't understand this.
because any place cable is it carries the locals..

[directvfreak]

I wouldn't worry about your H20 failing or not having OTA because in the agreement (if you have the protection plan) it states that the Model and Make of the box is DirecTV's choice, however, it states it will be replaced with a box that has the same features. Therefor if they replace your box with one without OTA, then they are lying to you are not following the plans guidelines.

[Earl Bonovich]

I wouldn't worry about your H20 failing or not having OTA because in the agreement (if you have the protection plan) it states that the Model and Make of the box is DirecTV's choice, however, it states it will be replaced with a box that has the same features. Therefor if they replace your box with one without OTA, then they are lying to you are not following the plans guidelines.

I am sure burried in the provisions of the protection plan, there are clauses that apply to equipment that is no longer available.

Like if your DTiVo died today... they can't replace it with anything that has EVERY identical feature.

[Jeremy W]

because any place cable is it carries the locals..
Not necessarily. And they also may not carry all of the subchannels.

[NR4P]

That has been fixed for over two months now.. (National release 0x15C)

Earl, sorry if I wasn't clear:eek2:
Of course it has.
What I meant was all the frustrations and engineering effort avoided when the problems were going on.

By not including the ATSC tuner, they save themselves so much grief and aggravation by not having to engineer two different RF projects.

[Radio Enginerd]

There is also an ethernet port, though it's currently unused.

Has the SWM SW been released for the H21 yet?

I had understood they were coming without the SWM SW.

I'm still waiting for mine. :( Got lost in the mail.

[Earl Bonovich]

Has the SWM SW been released for the H21 yet?

I had understood they were coming without the SWM SW.

I'm still waiting for mine. :( Got lost in the mail.

Yes.. it ended up being SWM ready out of the "box."

[Stuart Sweet]

Several field testers are using the receiver with SWM...

I couldn't get in the SWM trial because Mrs. Shadow isn't too keen on me going up to the roof to mess around with that stuff. Bit of a bummer.

[jdmac29]

I think Directv is now getting even more serious about all channels coming from through the satellite. I even think the next model HR20 OR HR21 will have the same or lack of feature for ota. Look at the HR20'S OTA feature it does not even include all the subchannels that are available in my area. Honestly OTA is not a big deal to me except for the lack of national hd channels( for me the CW and PBS) When the new sats go up I am sure we will see at least all the major national networks part of the satellite hd channels. The sub channels are just for local purposes only and not really alot of programing will be recorded anyway.
All the newest tv's have ota built in and most of that is not in hd but sd. My tv does not have rca outputs to record to a vcr or dvd recorder but alot do so that still allows that programming to be recorded anyway. I agree with OTA antenna being ugly outside the house but I have a huge radioshack antenna in my attic and it does it job for picking up all the ota channels that are available.
After directv gets all major national hd channels on the new sats then we will ota through any directv receiver will not be a big deal.

[Radio Enginerd]

Several field testers are using the receiver with SWM...

I couldn't get in the SWM trial because Mrs. Shadow isn't too keen on me going up to the roof to mess around with that stuff. Bit of a bummer.

Mr. Shadow, thanks for the heads up. Good to hear SWM is live on it!

Sorry to hear about Mrs. Shadow. :)

[dpfaunts]

Perhaps another aspect of no OTA is keeping up with the guide info on sub channels (and sub channel lists for that matter).... if D* is providing the content with and HD or SD feed they have a necessity to keep up.

[Paul Secic]

Just from my install history, around here its 40 to 1 in favor of no ATSC. A lot of people simply don't have an antenna on their roof anymore. Or if they do there is no line running from it, its about to fall off the roof, or its missing a lot of the elements.

Or it won't work after 02-17-09. Maybe:D

[litzdog911]

Or it won't work after 02-17-09. Maybe:D

Of course, the antenna doesn't care if it's receiving NTSC or ATSC signals, as long as it's functioning and receives the correct frequencies. So, even after February 2009, if it works now for ATSC reception it will still work.

[NR4P]

Of course, the antenna doesn't care if it's receiving NTSC or ATSC signals, as long as it's functioning and receives the correct frequencies. So, even after February 2009, if it works now for ATSC reception it will still work.

You are not kidding.
It's amazing how many people are being ripped off by the "HD" antenna story. Laughed when I was in a retail store where the salesperson said "your old antenna won't work, you need an HD antenna for OTA HD channels".

Good thing about digital TV, many OTA stations are scrambling to be on UHF come Feb. 2009. Looking through the FCC filings, some long time VHF'ers are filing to move up where they can run more power, about 1 megawatt ERP.

For the consumer, that means won't need the big antennas of the 1960's. Small UHF ones will be more than adequate for most, but unfortunately not all.

[mogulman]

So.. Anyone know if this has "one press" access to the guide? That would be enough for me to dump my H20 and go to the H21.

[veryoldschool]

So.. Anyone know if this has "one press" access to the guide? That would be enough for me to dump my H20 and go to the H21.
Not yet.

[PoitNarf]

So.. Anyone know if this has "one press" access to the guide? That would be enough for me to dump my H20 and go to the H21.

I'd expect the 1 button guide option to be available across the board to all receivers sometime in the near future.

[bonscott87]

I can't say enough about how fast the guide is on this thing. I thought it was fast on the HR20 with animations turned off but the H21 guide blows the socks off the HR20 and animations are turned on as there is no option to turn them off. It's crazy fast.

[Radio Enginerd]

You are not kidding.
It's amazing how many people are being ripped off by the "HD" antenna story. Laughed when I was in a retail store where the salesperson said "your old antenna won't work, you need an HD antenna for OTA HD channels".

Good thing about digital TV, many OTA stations are scrambling to be on UHF come Feb. 2009. Looking through the FCC filings, some long time VHF'ers are filing to move up where they can run more power, about 1 megawatt ERP.

For the consumer, that means won't need the big antennas of the 1960's. Small UHF ones will be more than adequate for most, but unfortunately not all.

Yeah that makes me laugh too. I went to Radio Shack to purchase a U75-R and was told something similar. I was told I needed an HD antenna for HD channels. I said, "I may not be a television enginerd, but I'm no fool." :)

I think it's more of an education thing.

[RobertE]

HD approved antenna

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9137&stc=1&d=1184814498

Not HD approved antenna

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9138&stc=1&d=1184814542

[Sixto]

Moved ....

[Jeremy W]

I can't say enough about how fast the guide is on this thing.
How come nobody has posted a video yet?

[veryoldschool]

How come nobody has posted a video yet?
Cause we don't want to start hearing the moaning from everyone else.

[Earl Bonovich]

How come nobody has posted a video yet?

Fine...
DiVX AVI v6.6
http://hr20.dbstalk.com/images/h21/other/h21_guide.avi

[Jeremy W]

Fine...
WOW! That is really amazing. It's also kind of sad though, that we get all worked up when the guide is actually responsive to remote input. :lol:

Thanks Earl.

[drx792]

Fine...
DiVX AVI v6.6
http://hr20.dbstalk.com/images/h21/other/h21_guide.avi

:eek2: thats not fast thats ludicrous speed!!

Do you think they can speed up the guide on the HR20 with firmware to get close to that?

[Stuart Sweet]

I believe that if you download the free DiVX software at www.divx.com you will be able to view the video in Windows Media Player 11.

[Radio Enginerd]

Fine...
DiVX AVI v6.6
http://hr20.dbstalk.com/images/h21/other/h21_guide.avi

Wow, that's impressive.

Earl, do you know what kind of proc they're using under the hood?

How does it compare to the proc in the HR-20?

[Stuart Sweet]

They're using a pair of Broadcom processors. You can see them in the First Look document. Broadcom is one of those companies that's everywhere. They're probably in your Wi-Fi router, your laptop, definitely in your Macintosh or iPhone if you own one of those, and of course in your HR20, whether -700 or -100.

[vansmack]

Fine...
DiVX AVI v6.6
http://hr20.dbstalk.com/images/h21/other/h21_guide.avi

I can't believe I just clicked a link to see how fast Earl could change channels. I thought I had reached an all time low. Then I was impressed with how fast he could change channels. Now, that, surely was an all time low!

[kevinwmsn]

That guide was very fast... I hope they can back port that to current active recievers.

[Stuart Sweet]

Another thing that's very fast is the system info screen. Hold down INFO for three seconds and bam, it shows. I have yet to see a "Please Wait" at all.

Channel changes are also much faster than on my HR20. I have to say they're probably faster than my D10 but it's currently inactive.

If you wanted an HD receiver for sports packages where you're going from channel to channel a lot, this receiver would beat a DVR hands down.

[bonscott87]

If you wanted an HD receiver for sports packages where you're going from channel to channel a lot, this receiver would beat a DVR hands down.

You got it. This will be my Sunday Ticket receiver all the way. :D

[brittonx]

I think it is just fine for D* to offer receivers without ATSC tuners just as long as they do not stop offering ones with the tuners. It's okay to charge a reasonable premium for the ATSC versions.

[veryoldschool]

I think it is just fine for D* to offer receivers without ATSC tuners just as long as they do not stop offering ones with the tuners. It's okay to charge a reasonable premium for the ATSC versions.
Ding Ding....
I think that's the point: with & without for those that want/or not.

[convem24]

Where did you read this?

I read it online. I was curious about what D* was going to do for MRV since I knew at the time (2006) the HR20 was going to be network enabled. D* over about the 18 months ago had talked about it and the client receivers that MRV was compatible with look exactly like the HR20 and smaller versions of the HR20 (obviously something like the H21). The article talked about MRV and that long term D* was going in that direction. I tried to look up the article more recently but the web page had expired. The initial information came out of CES 2006. It was very obscure and not a main stream media group that did the interview. Basically I was bored one night and did some random searches on DIRECTV and the MRV article came up. I wish I still had the article but using logic the only other benefit to the ethernet connection was would be media ability but D* can do so much more especially with the HR20/HR21/H21 series of receivers in terms of a master DVR and slave receiver configuration. We should know shortly what the plans for the H21's ethernet is for.:D

[pman_jim]

Fine...

I was just thinking it would be a small increase in guide speed. HOLY COW!!! Thats like going from a Yugo to a Lamborghini!!!!

I gotta get me one of those!!! I just hope the menu is that quick in the HR21.

[Kansas Zephyr]

When it comes to off-air digital TV don't toss out that VHF antenna, yet!

After the analog cut-off, the vast majority of TV stations have the option of returning to their old analog channel "slot" with their digital signal.

They have been using UHF channels where there were no VHF slots available.

TV stations don't want to pay larger electricity bills to run UHF transmitters, when they can get as much coverage running lower power on VHF.

There are exceptions, of course, some of the lower VHF channels are more susceptible to multi-path. So, they might stay on their current digital assignment.

[Radio Enginerd]

The new phone books are here, the new phone books are here!

My H21 arrived today! It's like Christmas Day for me. :)

Plan on catching up with all of you this weekend when I get everything nailed down.

[Jeremy W]

D* over about the 18 months ago had talked about it and the client receivers that MRV was compatible with look exactly like the HR20 and smaller versions of the HR20 (obviously something like the H21).
Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. That's the Home Media Center, or HMC. We haven't heard much at all about it since they first announced it.

[veryoldschool]

For everyone that got an H21, did yours come pre-activated or did you have to call a CSR?

Got it all hooked up but it's not activated. :(
Go online and activate it. I got in trouble for calling a CSR. Big no no.

[litzdog911]

For everyone that got an H21, did yours come pre-activated or did you have to call a CSR?

Got it all hooked up but it's not activated. :(

Yes, it should be pre-activated. But you'll need to go online and "reauthorize" your equipment.

[bonscott87]

R.E., you should go the H21 forum in the cutting edge.

[veryoldschool]

Ok, I'm dense.

I'm on the website, I see the rec, but I can not find where I need to go to "authorize" the box. I'm not much of an Enginerd this morning... It's Saturday and my brain is still getting started.
At that page mine shows: "unknown" as mine and if I check the box next to it and then go down the page there is an option to authorize [it or all]. Then it says it will take 3-5 min. Mine happened very quickly.

[litzdog911]

Radio Enginerd ....
More info here ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92074

[Radio Enginerd]

R.E., you should go the H21 forum in the cutting edge.

Again, I'm dense. :)

And I found it. Thanks to all of you... I'm kind of late to the prom with this bad boy. I just now caught up.

[loudo]

I hope that D* keeps the H20 on the market, along with the H21. Without the OTA functions the H21 is useless to me, and many others.

[Draconis]

Just to put in my two cents, I am also disappointed that the OTA was left out.

I can see where it is cost-effective to remove it, but we all know that users will complain when you remove a feature. Oddly they do not complain when you add one.

You get more HD local channels from the OTA than the 4 that DIRECTV provides.

It is also useful in markets where DIRECTV does not provide local channels.

If the HR21 follows suit then the customer will also loose recording capacity as well since you will not longer be able to record / view from the OTA while both the satellite tuners are busy recording. Guess I will have to wait for the HR21 to come out and see what DIRECTV does with it.

Other than that, looks like a good solid unit. Do we have a release date?

[veryoldschool]

Just to put in my two cents, I am also disappointed that the OTA was left out.

If the HR21 follows suit then the customer will also loose recording capacity as well since you will not longer be able to record / view from the OTA while both the satellite tuners are busy recording. Guess I will have to wait for the HR21 to come out and see what DIRECTV does with it.
Other than that, looks like a good solid unit. Do we have a release date?
This might not be that big of a deal since you can't do that now.

[carl6]

I would speculate that you will still be able to get ota support, perhaps at extra cost. The H20 and the HR20 both support OTA and I've seen no announcement that either is going away.

Carl

[Draconis]

This might not be that big of a deal since you can't do that now.

Thats news to me. I was under the impression that the HR20 followed the HR10-250 in having the ability to record from the OTA.

Guess I'll have to snag a friends HR20 and try it out. I have no problem admitting that I am wrong but this is one I really want to test.

[Michael D'Angelo]

Thats news to me. I was under the impression that the HR20 followed the HR10-250 in having the ability to record from the OTA.

Guess I'll have to snag a friends HR20 and try it out. I have no problem admitting that I am wrong but this is one I really want to test.

The HR20 can record OTA. They are talking about the HR21 may not have a OTA tuner since the H21 does not.

[bonscott87]

Thats news to me. I was under the impression that the HR20 followed the HR10-250 in having the ability to record from the OTA.

Guess I'll have to snag a friends HR20 and try it out. I have no problem admitting that I am wrong but this is one I really want to test.

He was addressing this from you:
you will not longer be able to record / view from the OTA while both the satellite tuners are busy recording

You can certainly watch and record OTA all you want on the HR20. But like most receivers it can only record 2 things at once. Thus if you are recording 2 things off the sat then the only other thing you can do is watch a previous recording. If 2 things are recording you cannot watch a 3rd thing live (OTA or sat).

[Draconis]

Well, I tested the matter. You may color me ignorant.

Thankfully ignorance is curable.

You can only record 2 shows at once with the HR20, regardless if they are coming from the satellite or the OTA. So a user of the upcoming HR21 will not loose recording capacity if the unit does not support OTA. Just a small bit of selection in what they can record.

I will fully admit that I was assuming that the unit had the capability of recording from the OTA while both satellite tuners were recording (3 recordings at once) because I thought that it had this ability from the HR10-250 and saw no reason that this could not happen. After all, the OTA is a separate tuner from the satellite tuners.

So, please strike my remark that the loss of the OTA will cause users of the upcoming HR21 to loose recording capability.

However, my argument still stands that you can get more HD locals from the OTA than from the satellite feeds.

[Loppy101]

Is the HR20-100 the most current DVR for DirecTV? Also, are there plans to introduce an HR21-*** soon?

[bonscott87]

I will fully admit that I was assuming that the unit had the capability of recording from the OTA while both satellite tuners were recording (3 recordings at once) because I thought that it had this ability from the HR10-250 and saw no reason that this could not happen. After all, the OTA is a separate tuner from the satellite tuners.

HR10 can't do this either. It can only record 2 things at once at most. It cannot record 3 things at once.


However, my argument still stands that you can get more HD locals from the OTA than from the satellite feeds.

I think we all agree with you, no argument from anyone on this point.

[N5XZS]

Hey guys, don't you realize that FCC's rule says new TV sets must have internal digital tuner and same goes for VCR, DVD Recorder and DBS Satellite tuner......

Oops it's looks like the Directv not following the FCC's about puting ATSC on H21 reciever!:eek2:

Remember YOU must have a back up in case you lose the satellite signals and go to OTA and besides, OTA antenna is your friend to a outside world for news and weather informations from your local TV stations!!:)

7-22-07

[Michael D'Angelo]

Is the HR20-100 the most current DVR for DirecTV? Also, are there plans to introduce an HR21-*** soon?

:welcome_s to DBStalk

The HR20-100 is the newer HR20. But the -100 and -700 are about the same unit. As far as the HR21 goes no one knows when it will be out.

[Earl Bonovich]

Hey guys, don't you realize that FCC's rule says new TV sets must have internal digital tuner and same goes for VCR, DVD Recorder and DBS Satellite tuner......

Oops it's looks like the Directv not following the FCC's about puting ATSC on H21 reciever!:eek2:

Remember YOU must have a back up in case you lose the satellite signals and go to OTA and besides, OTA antenna is your friend to a outside world for news and weather informations from your local TV stations!!:)

7-22-07

Can you link to the ruling where a SAT-Reciever has to include an ATSC tuner?

Let alone a VCR, DVD Recorder....

How many years (decades) have people gone with out Over the Air receptions ? I know in my case it was over 25 years, before I got an OTA, and that was because it was the ONLY way to get local HD content...

[Tom Servo]

Hey guys, don't you realize that FCC's rule says new TV sets must have internal digital tuner and same goes for VCR, DVD Recorder and DBS Satellite tuner......

Oops it's looks like the Directv not following the FCC's about puting ATSC on H21 reciever!:eek2:

Remember YOU must have a back up in case you lose the satellite signals and go to OTA and besides, OTA antenna is your friend to a outside world for news and weather informations from your local TV stations!!:)

7-22-07

As far as I know, the ruling only applies to televisions with tuners. If it applies to any kind of OTA tuner, then the manufacturer could leave out a tuner entirely and still be in compliance, like with projectors and DVD recorders (I didn't know they had TV tuners in them at all).

[N5XZS]

Boy the FCC's website is a pain in the butt!!:rolleyes: They need to hire a better webmaster.:p

I think i found a link but turn out to be a dead link......"PDF" format they use.:(

I guess I will have to go to google.com and to see if there any links for me to past it on here unless someone beat me to it!!:) :lol:

7-22-07

[N5XZS]

Try this........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_tuner Also link for the PDF is still broken.....

I know my PDF software is still working fine to me.

Man the FCC's website need some house cleaning job to do......:eek2:

Oh well now back to TV DXing......:D

7-22-07

[Christopher Gould]

Try this........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_tuner Also link for the PDF is still broken.....

I know my PDF software is still working fine to me.

Man the FCC's website need some house cleaning job to do......:eek2:

Oh well now back to TV DXing......:D

7-22-07

"all interface devices which INCLUDE a tuner " I think your problem is this. If it dosen't include a turner your ok , if it does you need a ATSC turner. No where does it say it has to have a turner. TV's with out turners aren't televisions they are monitors.

[PoitNarf]

Makes me wonder if D* could develop an external ATSC tuner which connects to the H21 USB port. Hmmm...

[pdxBeav]

Makes me wonder if D* could develop an external ATSC tuner which connects to the H21 USB port. Hmmm...

I see no reason why they couldn't support the HDHomeRun device.

http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/products/hdhomerun

[loudo]

Makes me wonder if D* could develop an external ATSC tuner which connects to the H21 USB port. Hmmm...
As long as they keep the H20 in production, it shouldn't be a problem. That way people would have a choice of a unit with or without an OTA tuner.

[spidey]

No, it's basically an updated H20 without OTA as there is no recording capability.

NO OTA? Why would they go this route?

[veryoldschool]

NO OTA? Why would they go this route?
This has been posted several times in the 180 posts already here.
Cost is a main reason. Some don't use the OTA feature, some do. There is [or will be] one with and one without. [some times feel like a nut and some times you don't].
One installer pointed out that about one in forty installs have OTA.

[Doug Brott]

Makes me wonder if D* could develop an external ATSC tuner which connects to the H21 USB port. Hmmm...

That's certainly an interesting idea. It would solve the problem of no ATSC Tuner in the H21.

[Doug Brott]

"all interface devices which INCLUDE a tuner " I think your problem is this. If it dosen't include a turner your ok , if it does you need a ATSC turner. No where does it say it has to have a turner. TV's with out turners aren't televisions they are monitors.

I guess this somewhat makes sense. I'm pretty sure that DIRECTV never included an NTSC tuner in any of their receivers, but I could be wrong on that one. Certainly there have been some boxes with ATSC tuners, though. If that's the case, then DIRECTV has been compliant all along.

I would also agree that Televisions without tuners are monitors .. So if you buy a Television now it should have an ATSC tuner inside - there may be some "old" stock that doesn't fit that criteria, but it seems most manufacturers instituted the policy long before it became required earlier this year.

[packfan909]

I guess this somewhat makes sense. I'm pretty sure that DIRECTV never included an NTSC tuner in any of their receivers, but I could be wrong on that one. Certainly there have been some boxes with ATSC tuners, though. If that's the case, then DIRECTV has been compliant all along.

I would also agree that Televisions without tuners are monitors .. So if you buy a Television now it should have an ATSC tuner inside - there may be some "old" stock that doesn't fit that criteria, but it seems most manufacturers instituted the policy long before it became required earlier this year.

Everything I have seen has an ATSC tuner installed since around March. Stores had non ATSC TV's on clearance and advertised as such for a few months after that. Now, there are a few in the store that don't even get display space.

Back in June, I purchased a 15" Sylvania from a local furniture and electronics store. Even though it is a 4:3, it carries an ATSC and NTSC tuner in it. Works very well to.

pf

[TheRatPatrol]

How many years (decades) have people gone with out Over the Air receptions ? I know in my case it was over 25 years, before I got an OTA, and that was because it was the ONLY way to get local HD content...
I agree with you Earl, but times have changed once again with OTA HD coming online. If D* is not going to include OTA tuners in future receivers and DVRs', then they better include ALL local channels in a given area on satellite, including PBS-HD. :D

[Stuart Sweet]

I'd like that, but someone here posted that the reason that PBS isn't carried in HD is because PBS would require them to carry all the subchannels as well.

[VicF]

I agree it makes sense as most TV sold have ATSC tuners. What I would like to see is an option to add local X-X stations to the guide even when not served up from D*

[RAD]

I'd like that, but someone here posted that the reason that PBS isn't carried in HD is because PBS would require them to carry all the subchannels as well.


Here in Austin I could care less about our PBS station. The only broadcast in HD starting at 8PM every day until about 1AM, rest of the time is just a slide saying watch starting at 8PM. If they don't want to use the channel then D* shouldn't waste the bandwidth on them.

[TBoneit]

There is very little bandwidth used by static slide being broadcast. The saving is miniscule. It is rapid movement that uses the most bandwidth which is why Sports has always looked worse in the past on digital systems.

[RAD]

There is very little bandwidth used by static slide being broadcast. The saving is miniscule. It is rapid movement that uses the most bandwidth which is why Sports has always looked worse in the past on digital systems.


Understand that, my point was if our local PBS feels that only doing HD 5 hours per day is why have D* bother to allocate any bandwidth to their HD channel 24x7, give it to another station that has their HD channel up 24x7, even if their programming isn't in HD 24x7.

[EHorst99]

Any word on if the new H21 use less electricty than the H20? Is it going to be any smarter about its power usage? I.e. spin down the disk when there's nothing for to unit to do.

Thanks.

[Earl Bonovich]

Any word on if the new H21 use less electricty than the H20? Is it going to be any smarter about its power usage? I.e. spin down the disk when there's nothing for to unit to do.

Thanks.

It hs no hard drive to power down...

[JeffBowser]

Regardless of what alarmists want us to believe, power consumption by most electronic devices (non-mechanical) is not that much.

[TBoneit]

If you read the manuals, most satellite equipment uses approx the same power in standbye or turned on. AFAIK. Even off things are happening, Guide download, updates, authorizations etc.

[Jeremy W]

If you read the manuals, most satellite equipment uses approx the same power in standbye or turned on. AFAIK. Even off things are happening, Guide download, updates, authorizations etc.
Yep, essentially the only things that are turned off are the front panel lights and the AV outputs. Everything else is still running.

[Jimbo2]

Well I was one of the people originaly chosen for testing.. I had to turn it down due to the lack of OTA.. To me this has always been a major feature of D* boxes and when it first was added in and integrated all into one guide I concidered it to be one of the best moves they ever made.. Sad to think they are now going away from that idea... just my 2cents worth..

I have to agree with you...
Is there NO ability for the OTA , does it not have the tuner in it ???
Much like the HR20-700's when they first came out, there was no HD Tuner activated, is it there on this model and not turned on yet ?

Sorry, this is my first chance to look into this new box, been quite busy lately.

Jimbo

[Michael D'Angelo]

I have to agree with you...
Is there NO ability for the OTA , does it not have the tuner in it ???
Much like the HR20-700's when they first came out, there was no HD Tuner activated, is it there on this model and not turned on yet ?

Sorry, this is my first chance to look into this new box, been quite busy lately.

Jimbo

It does not have a OTA tuner.

[Jimbo2]

I have to agree with you...
Is there NO ability for the OTA , does it not have the tuner in it ???
Much like the HR20-700's when they first came out, there was no HD Tuner activated, is it there on this model and not turned on yet ?

Sorry, this is my first chance to look into this new box, been quite busy lately.

Jimbo

It does not have a OTA tuner.

In MY opinion, this is a stupid move on D*'s part.
I will never use D*'s local service if I can help it, it's free for me with my antenna, why pay monthly for something that has been paid for for years now.

I HOPE they continue to have rec. both with and w/o tuners available.
I have an old H-10 in the bedroom and eventually would like to upgrade to the mpeg4 version, but I need something with an OTA tuner in it.
I was hoping to get the next generation, hoping to avoid the "Which H-20 should I get " problem, one runs hot, one has a better OTA tuner issue with the next gen... but it appears that that is out of the question now, at least at the moment.

Jimbo

[Spanky_Partain]

In MY opinion, this is a stupid move on D*'s part.
I will never use D*'s local service if I can help it, it's free for me with my antenna, why pay monthly for something that has been paid for for years now.

I HOPE they continue to have rec. both with and w/o tuners available.
I have an old H-10 in the bedroom and eventually would like to upgrade to the mpeg4 version, but I need something with an OTA tuner in it.
I was hoping to get the next generation, hoping to avoid the "Which H-20 should I get " problem, one runs hot, one has a better OTA tuner issue with the next gen... but it appears that that is out of the question now, at least at the moment.

Jimbo

The other alternative is to upgrade the TV as well as the D* box and get a TV with NTSC/ATSC tuners built in on that.

[Jimbo2]

The other alternative is to upgrade the TV as well as the D* box and get a TV with NTSC/ATSC tuners built in on that.

Yes that is an option, but the TV I have in the bedroom is still going strong and has a real good picture on it, even in it's old age.

It's an old 27" CRT Sony XBR, she's going on 18 now.
In order to upgrade I'd have to go to at least a 40" flat panel, if I go that style, in order to increase the picture size a bit.
Not sure that I want to invest that kind of money in the bedroom TV at this point, unless it goes out completely.

Jimbo

[Thaedron]

I agree that no OTA tuner in the H-21 is a cost cutting move, kind of a pain, but not the end of the world.

However, I still think that skipping the OTA tuner in the HR-21 when it comes out will be a BIG MISTAKE. Reason being is that you may have ATSC tuners in your TV, but you won't have a DVR in there too.

Here is a potential scenario:

HR-21 comes out having NO OTA tuner, but with some new features that the HR-20 doesn't have and due to hardware or other limitations cannot have. This will leave an "old, feature lacking" DVR with OTA and a "new, feature-rich" DVR without OTA.

While the situation is understandable that the H20 has OTA and the H21 won't. The most feature rich DVR should include an OTA tuner. Otherwise does D* plan to carry ALL local channels, OR expect you to get a separate ATSC tuning DVR to fill that need? OR don't they care about that fraction of their viewership?

"Perfect world" scenario:
HR-21 is an OTA carrying, Multi-room viewing Uber-DVR (toss in DLBs too... :D )and that ethernet port on the H-21s is there to make it an MRV client thus allowing you to watch your OTA recorded content anywhere in your home. Ok, this would still alienate a fraction of the people here who need their live OTA in their H-21s, but that's down to a fraction of an already small fraction (~1/40 of installs).

[veryoldschool]

For the topic of "first look" of the H21, there seem to be a lot of worries about a DVR.
This is a receiver & it seems that maybe 39 out of 40 users would find it works for what they want.
For the 1 out of 40, there is still the H20.
I must say, if you had this in your hands, you'd love it for what it does do. :D

[TheRatPatrol]

"Perfect world" scenario:
HR-21 is an OTA carrying, Multi-room viewing Uber-DVR (toss in DLBs too... :D )and that ethernet port on the H-21s is there to make it an MRV client thus allowing you to watch your OTA recorded content anywhere in your home. Ok, this would still alienate a fraction of the people here who need their live OTA in their H-21s, but that's down to a fraction of an already small fraction (~1/40 of installs).
And has side by side PIP. :D

[loudo]

HR-21 comes out having NO OTA tuner, but with some new features that the HR-20 doesn't have and due to hardware or other limitations cannot have. This will leave an "old, feature lacking" DVR with OTA and a "new, feature-rich" DVR without OTA.

That would definitely not be a good thing for D*. We live in a very high rain fade prone area, and when we want to record anything that is available in OTA or D* satellite, we use OTA signal before we will the D* signal, because of the rain fade issue. Plus D* only offers 4 HD networks and that leaves another 26 HD or digital signals that I might want to record from, that wouldn't be available to record without an OTA tuner in the DVR.

I am sure a lot of others are in that same boat. If I am home just wanting to watch the show, it is no problem switching my TV input to my built in tuner, but if I am away and wanting to record it on the DVR, the lack of a OTA tuner in the DVR, would be an issue for me.

[hdtvfan0001]

For the topic of "first look" of the H21, there seem to be a lot of worries about a DVR.
This is a receiver & it seems that maybe 39 out of 40 users would find it works for what they want.
For the 1 out of 40, there is still the H20.
I must say, if you had this in your hands, you'd love it for what it does do. :D

I totally agree.

I have 1 H20 receiver, 2 HR20 DVR's and 2 legacy receivers. I intend to replace both legacy receivers with HD ones in the near future, one possibly with another HR20 DVR. I have had OTA for many years.

That said, OTA is nice where you want / need it for viewing, but for many rooms in the house OTA is just not that big a deal. In my Home Theater or Family Room, its a must with DVR usage, in my Master Bedroom, it's not.

Also, out of my 19 or so D*TV customer personal friends with HD service, only 3 of us have OTA. I suspect that nationwide, the % is less than 10%.....so it will not be as big a deal on the mass market. It will also vary by market, depending on how many oTA channels you get, how solid they are, and if you get the D*TV MPEG4 locals in your market.

To me, what D*TV does with the activation of the Ethernet port has more potential impact.

My guess is that over time, OTA interest and connections will continue to dwindle. For that reason, I suspect D*TV is forecasting the same thing and excluded an OTA tuner in the H21.

[RunnerFL]

I will never use D*'s local service if I can help it, it's free for me with my antenna, why pay monthly for something that has been paid for for years now.


Locals are included in your package, unless you have specifically asked D* to not include them, so you would not be paying anything more than you already are.

[TBoneit]

Locals may be included, without subchannels however. That goes for both satellite services. Do I use them? Sunday I was watching one of the local subchannels via the TV set tuner and Basic cable.

Why that way? The TV set gives channel info via the tuner (QAM)

[satwood]

How can I get a chance to try the H21? I'm currently using an H20 that I would gladly put aside. I have a variety of large panel systems I can test it with. I do not need OTA, in fact I'm in a place where I can't get any decent OTA anyway. I have relatively long single cable runs from an AT9 dish and I have 4 total receivers on the 4 AT9 ports. I've been planning to add a WB68 to expand the system.

I haven't been very active in the CE work to date because I don't have an HR20 and my H20 has a number of hardware bugs in it I've reported many times already. I didn't want to brick it by testing firmware since it's not stable anyway. (Hitting it with a rolled up newspaper gets a similar reaction as from my cat :grin: ).

Let me know if there's a way I can play.

Thanks
Steve

[RAD]

IIRC, Earl has said to post your set up in thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79383 so D* can see if you fit the needs for testing new hardware.

[directvfreak]

Is the H20 capable of using an RF remote. I noticed the remote included isn't RF and there is no RF antenna.

[Michael D'Angelo]

Is the H20 capable of using an RF remote. I noticed the remote included isn't RF and there is no RF antenna.

Yes. I have both of my H20's using RF. It does have a external antenna.

[Jeremy W]

Is the H20 capable of using an RF remote. I noticed the remote included isn't RF and there is no RF antenna.
The included remote IS RF, and it should have come with an RF antenna.

[JeffBowser]

+1, I just changed mine last night from IR to RF. Took me an hour to remember where I stashed that antenna

[directvfreak]

My bad... is the H21 capable of using an RF remote... I need to re-read my posts, it was stupid of me to ask... I have 2 H20s... Again, is the H20 Rf capable.

I'm stupid

[veryoldschool]

My bad... is the H21 capable of using an RF remote... I need to re-read my posts, it was stupid of me to ask... I have 2 H20s... Again, is the H20 Rf capable.

I'm stupid
Both models of the H20 AND the H21 are RF capable.

[TAnsley]

I'm curious of the actual percentage of ATSC users. Remember, OTA is a non-revenue feature that costs DIRECTV (a relatively small fixed/maintenance cost). A lower-cost box could entice more customers. I would not be in the least surprised if the H21 became the default "free" box for new customers or folks wishing to upgrade to HD.

Since I cannot get all of my HD locals via DTV, it is a must! (Thanks LIN Broadcasting! :mad: )

[mluntz]

I agree with most of you on OTA, I want it (and need it for some channels). But we must remember we are the *vast* minority. Earl is right as it the installer that said it was 40:1. Several of my friends with HD still don't have antennas. Most reason is:

1) Wife won't let me put one up (or they don't want it)
2) Why do I need some 30 year old technology? Cable/sat should provide that for me
3) OTA? Antenna? What's that?


Advantages of OTA:

More channels
Virtuall NO rain fade

[veryoldschool]

Advantages of OTA:

More channels
Virtuall NO rain fade
I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you, but "most users" don't care and this receiver is for them [and apparently not for you].

[JeffBowser]

Nice thing about OTA in the DirecTV receiver is the integrated guide.

[loudo]

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you, but "most users" don't care and this receiver is for them [and apparently not for you].
The only advantage I can see of the H21 over the H20, is the Network connection. As far as the removal of the OTA tuner, it is a big step back wards, and renders the unit useless to me. I hope they keep the H20 around for a while.

[Stuart Sweet]

As far as I know, there will be H20s in the pipeline for a while to come. As for the network port, it is there for future use, and hopefully we'll see some use for it.

When the H10 and HR10 came out, I think that something like 5 markets were served by HD locals. OTA was very important for people at that time. DIRECTV has spent a lot of money to put HD locals into more and more markets, granted they don't have every subchannel and every station. But OTA is becoming less and less of a consideration for more and more people.

If it's still a consideration for you, by all means stay with the H20. DIRECTV wants satisfied customers.

[Jeremy W]

When the H10 and HR10 came out, I think that something like 5 markets were served by HD locals.
That's quite a feat, considering the fact that HD locals (aside from DNS) have always been MPEG4. Since the H10 and the HR10 were released before the H20 and the HR20, there would have been no way to receive the HD local signals. :lol:

Detroit was the first market with HD locals, and they were lit up in November 2005. The H20 was released before then.

[loudo]

When the H10 and HR10 came out, I think that something like 5 markets were served by HD locals. OTA was very important for people at that time. DIRECTV has spent a lot of money to put HD locals into more and more markets, granted they don't have every subchannel and every station. But OTA is becoming less and less of a consideration for more and more people.


The big problem for our area is, D* gives us only 4 HD or digital locals, with my OTA antenna I can get 31. But, I guess if you live in an area with just the big 4 network stations, it wouldn't be a problem.

Also, during summer months we get a lot of rain fade, and when I want to send programing to my DVD recorder, I use the OTA channels and not the D* locals.

Another thing is, since we don't have the local weather, for The Weather Channel, it is nice to have NBC Weather Plus and our local ABC station that broadcasts the local radar,in HD, on of their subchannels.

[veryoldschool]

That's quite a feat, considering the fact that HD locals (aside from DNS) have always been MPEG4. Since the H10 and the HR10 were released before the H20 and the HR20, there would have been no way to receive the HD local signals. :lol:

Detroit was the first market with HD locals, and they were lit up in November 2005. The H20 was released before then.
And before that LA and NYC had their HD "locals" in MPEG-2

[tds4182]

This unit runs much cooler than the H20 as well.

Not all the H20s run hot. I have an H20-600 that, while warm, could hardly be categorized as "hot." You could hold your hand on top of the unit all day if you wanted to do so.

It is in a well ventilated area.

[Doug Brott]

And before that LA and NYC had their HD "locals" in MPEG-2

The LA and NYC channels are still broadcast in MPEG2 as far as I know. They may have MPEG4 simulcasts, but I don't know anything about that.

[RAD]

The LA and NYC channels are still broadcast in MPEG2 as far as I know. They may have MPEG4 simulcasts, but I don't know anything about that.
The original NYC/LA channels are still there in the 80-89 range.

[hdtvfan0001]

Not all the H20s run hot. I have an H20-600 that, while warm, could hardly be categorized as "hot." You could hold your hand on top of the unit all day if you wanted to do so.

It is in a well ventilated area.
Agreed. My H20-600 is several years old and has never run "hot".

The new H21's, however, run cooler due to an updated design inside and the vent slot locations on the case.

[Jeremy W]

And before that LA and NYC had their HD "locals" in MPEG-2
Right, that's why I put "aside from DNS" in my post.

[veryoldschool]

Right, that's why I put "aside from DNS" in my post.
This may be splitting hairs, but if you're in one of those DMAs, it isn't DNS is it?

[Jeremy W]

This may be splitting hairs, but if you're in one of those DMAs, it isn't DNS is it?
No, but that's just a happy coincidence for people in LA and NY. Those channels were put up there with the intention of providing HD DNS, not to give NY and LA HD locals. They just happened to be the locals for those cities.

[MikeR]

Curious....what features are included in the BCM4503 Broadcom chip....no mention of it on their site.:confused:;) Anyone notice any differences from the 4501?

[Stuart Sweet]

The internals of the BCM4503 are still fairly confidential right now, I haven't been able to find out more than I've already posted.

[scubawoman]

I have a dvd recorder and was using the H10 as input for recording movies from satellite. I had the mpeg4 upgrade done this weekend and received an H20 as replacement. It will not turn on with autotuning so when I want to record something on the dvd recorder I have to leave the H20 on. Does the H21 do the same thing or is it like the H10 that will turn itself on with autotuning?

[loudo]

I have a dvd recorder and was using the H10 as input for recording movies from satellite. I had the mpeg4 upgrade done this weekend and received an H20 as replacement. It will not turn on with autotuning so when I want to record something on the dvd recorder I have to leave the H20 on. Does the H21 do the same thing or is it like the H10 that will turn itself on with autotuning?
The H20 will auto tune, just go to "Scheduler" and then "Manual" and you can set it up to turn on and off for programs. I do that and send them to my DVD recorder. The H20 just will not control the recording device like some of the older receivers used to. My older HTL-HD, used to turn the receiver on and start up and shut down the DVD recorder.

[scubawoman]

The H20 will auto tune, just go to "Scheduler" and then "Manual" and you can set it up to turn on and off for programs. I do that and send them to my DVD recorder. The H20 just will not control the recording device like some of the older receivers used to. My older HTL-HD, used to turn the receiver on and start up and shut down the DVD recorder.

I have the H20. It will only autotune if the H20 is on. To record to the dvd recorder the H20 has to be on itself or it won't send anything to the dvd recorder. The H10 will turn itself on, I was wondering if the H21 will as well.

[loudo]

I have the H20. It will only autotune if the H20 is on. To record to the dvd recorder the H20 has to be on itself or it won't send anything to the dvd recorder. The H10 will turn itself on, I was wondering if the H21 will as well.
You might have something wrong with your unit. I just tried mine to make sure and it turns on when it reaches the auto tune time for a show.

[scubawoman]

You might have something wrong with your unit. I just tried mine to make sure and it turns on when it reaches the auto tune time for a show.

I'll have to check it out again when I get home from work. I tried it about 4 times. When I turn off the unit it didn't turn back on. When I turned it back on and went to the history each time it said the autotune was cancelled. Thanks. The manual doesn't say anything about this either.

[scubawoman]

You might have something wrong with your unit. I just tried mine to make sure and it turns on when it reaches the auto tune time for a show.

I reset the receiver and tried it again. It now works as you said. Thank you so much for the info. I wasn't sure if it could do it or if it was just a bad machine. The forums always give better info. than directv tech. support.

[Stuart Sweet]

I tested the H21 and it also turns itself on to autotune. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, scucawoman!

[sagle]

During March Madness I was able to pick from multiple games via the OTA sub channels. Unless DTV carries ALL OTA and subchannels for ALL markets, then this is a bad idea for me and how I watch TV.

[MikeR]

The internals of the BCM4503 are still fairly confidential right now, I haven't been able to find out more than I've already posted.

Wonder if the BCM4503 is now the BCM 4505 (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics-&-Receiver-Products/BCM4505) (65nm technology). Their website now lists 4501...4505 and 4506.

[paulman182]

I don't get any OTA but that doesn't mean I will never attempt it here, or never move closer to the towers. I'm glad I have my HR20s and H20.

I wonder if the lack of OTA support means D* plans to add all the local subchannels someday, making OTA truly unnecessary?

[P Smith]

Wonder if the BCM4503 is now the BCM 4505 (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics-&-Receiver-Products/BCM4505) (65nm technology). Their website now lists 4501...4505 and 4506.

Different types - 4503 ( after 4500 predecessor) is demod chip, no tuner part included ( open a can on H21 board for find out what tuner chip used );
4505 is combo of two - tuner and demod; interesting feature: input range expanded and cover 250...750 MHz (for DirecTV Ka-Lo ) so no BBC required.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

The lack of OTA (L-I-L) makes the H21 a deal-breaker for us. We have two of the newer HD sets, both with integral ATSC tuners, but to use them you must "switch over" which is inconvenient.

I didn't like the H20 primarily for the heat problem and the lack of a single-click to the guide and the missing "Turbo-Tune" feature of the old Platinum E86. Gee whiz those were great receivers, but those too ran awfully hot.

We're temporarily no longer sat subscribers. We switched over to cable when we moved into a rental house while our new home is being built. I had forgotten just how awful cable was.... Anyway, the lack of OTA support on the new H21 will likely cause us to look into trying E* in December when we move to our new digs.

[JeffBowser]

Your cable box doesn't have an OTA tuner either :lol:

Odd you would consider E solely based on the lack of an OTA tuner in a sat box. But, if that is your trigger, then don't get the H21, get the H20 or the HR20, which has the single click guide.

The lack of OTA (L-I-L) makes the H21 a deal-breaker for us. We have two of the newer HD sets, both with integral ATSC tuners, but to use them you must "switch over" which is inconvenient.

I didn't like the H20 primarily for the heat problem and the lack of a single-click to the guide and the missing "Turbo-Tune" feature of the old Platinum E86. Gee whiz those were great receivers, but those too ran awfully hot.

We're temporarily no longer sat subscribers. We switched over to cable when we moved into a rental house while our new home is being built. I had forgotten just how awful cable was.... Anyway, the lack of OTA support on the new H21 will likely cause us to look into trying E* in December when we move to our new digs.

[CT_Wiebe]

Lack of an OTA (ASTC) tuner in the H21 is bad for me too. I use my D* H20-100 (runs cool) with both my LCD display (with a built-in ASTC tuner) and with my front projector (no front projectors have tuners of any kind - they're monitors). The 27" LCD display is my second room is also a monitor - no tuners. The only locals that I get from D* are the SD versions.

I'm having problems with the new D* HD channels, but that's a different subject.

In my area, we have 20 OTA channels which broadcast (at least some) HD programming and only the major (ABC, CBS, NBC, & 1 PBS station) are covered by the D* locals. When I had my new roof installed last November, I upgraded to the D* HD service (5-LNB Slimline & H20-100) and replaced my 30 year old (very large) Jerrold VHF/UHF with a new Channel Master 4228 to get the local HD (ASTC) channels (I'm 50 miles from the major network towers - but line-of-sight).

Even the SD UHF locals have much better picture quality, OTA, than the D* feeds. This is really evident (SD & HD OTA locals) when viewing on a 106", 16:9, projection screen.

If I ever have to replace my H20 (or my HD-HTL receiver in the second room) with a H21 (or another model w/o an ASTC tuner), I will be forced to buy an external ASTC tuner for my application.

[Spanky_Partain]

Lack of an OTA (ASTC) tuner in the H21 is bad for me too. I use my D* H20-100 (runs cool) with both my LCD display (with a built-in ASTC tuner) and with my front projector (no front projectors have tuners of any kind - they're monitors). The 27" LCD display is my second room is also a monitor - no tuners. The only locals that I get from D* are the SD versions.

I'm having problems with the new D* HD channels, but that's a different subject.

In my area, we have 20 OTA channels which broadcast (at least some) HD programming and only the major (ABC, CBS, NBC, & 1 PBS station) are covered by the D* locals. When I had my new roof installed last November, I upgraded to the D* HD service (5-LNB Slimline & H20-100) and replaced my 30 year old (very large) Jerrold VHF/UHF with a new Channel Master 4228 to get the local HD (ASTC) channels (I'm 50 miles from the major network towers - but line-of-sight).

Even the SD UHF locals have much better picture quality, OTA, than the D* feeds. This is really evident (SD & HD OTA locals) when viewing on a 106", 16:9, projection screen.

If I ever have to replace my H20 (or my HD-HTL receiver in the second room) with a H21 (or another model w/o an ASTC tuner), I will be forced to buy an external ASTC tuner for my application.

Samsung makes an HD Directv Reciever with an OTA. I got one that I have disconnected now. But it wokred flawlessly. It most likely will not work with the D10 Sat though.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Your cable box doesn't have an OTA tuner either :lol:

Odd you would consider E solely based on the lack of an OTA tuner in a sat box. But, if that is your trigger, then don't get the H21, get the H20 or the HR20, which has the single click guide.

Well, the emphasis here is that we are only temporarily stuck w/cable.

I was also highly annoyed with D* when we first moved into the rental that D* refused to reconnect our wonderful (!!!) old Platinum E86 stb's that we paid a tad over $500 each for several years ago. That really pissed me off, so now this ATSC tuner issue is probably going to wind up being a second reason to consider E* once we make the final move to our new house. Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

Ultimately it will depend on what receivers we can get when it comes time to move.

[ogolden1]

I have a 4 yr old Platinum E86 receiver and I'm looking to upgrade so I can get the newly added HD channels. While the HD channels look great, the SD channels have always been less than desirable.

Do the new H21/HR21 receivers provide a clearer SD picture?