View Full Version : Search .vs. Wishlist shortcomings
Tony Chick
07-19-07, 09:51 PM
This isn't another "Tivo does it better" thread, but in this case well.. Tivo does it better.
My wife's uncle is a character actor from the 40's-60's and appeared in hundreds of films and TV shows, so on Tivo we setup an Actor wishlist, he was in the list of actors, and it happily records any old episode of Gunsmoke, Lone Ranger or whatever else he was in. If I try and Search on the HR20, he just isn't in the list.
Also, on the HR10 I setup a wishlist for "Gordon Ramsay" (the foul-mouth British chef) and it records Hell's Kitchen on Fox, Kitchen Nightmares on the BBC and anything else he's on. On the HR20, a search on "Ramsay" only shows Hell's Kitchen even though there is a new episode of Kitchen Nightmares on tonight.
Are there any plans to make Search comparable to Tivo Wishlists?.
Earl Bonovich
07-20-07, 04:32 AM
When is the next episode of Kitch Nightmares on?
As I would like to take a look at what it's guide data lists...
(It is not showing up in the H21, or HR20).
I don't think it has anything to do with making Search comparable to TiVo Wishlists (with specifically the HR20)...
It probably has more to do with the amount of "extra" guide information that is include in what is sent to the receivers... be it a HR20, H21, R15
In a chat session, a DIRECTV employee said we could see some changes to search, possibly including a new "top-level" category search, which is something I'm interested in. I'm not sure how that will impact your issues.
It could be that the HR20 doesn't get the same amount of data sent to it that the HR10s get, which is why your wife's uncle's name can't be found, or that the HR20 gets the same data but doesn't index as deeply. I don't think any of us can answer that.
CCarncross
07-20-07, 05:06 AM
It seems this issue keeps getting rehashed every few weeks. Tivo's have access to better data than what the D* DVR's are getting from Tribune...its all about the guide data and how the DVR reads it...we pretty much know that the tribune data is severely lacking in comparison.
Chuck W
07-20-07, 09:32 AM
It seems this issue keeps getting rehashed every few weeks. Tivo's have access to better data than what the D* DVR's are getting from Tribune...its all about the guide data and how the DVR reads it...we pretty much know that the tribune data is severely lacking in comparison.
Who does Tivo get their info from?
Stuart Sweet
07-20-07, 09:34 AM
Tribune also.
davring
07-20-07, 09:38 AM
Than obviously Tivo gets more complete guida data than D*'s version. Is D*'s version less expensive?
Tony Chick
07-20-07, 10:06 AM
When is the next episode of Kitch Nightmares on?
As I would like to take a look at what it's guide data lists...
(It is not showing up in the H21, or HR20).
I don't think it has anything to do with making Search comparable to TiVo Wishlists (with specifically the HR20)...
It probably has more to do with the amount of "extra" guide information that is include in what is sent to the receivers... be it a HR20, H21, R15
It airs every Thursday on BBC America. It repeats a couple of times during the evening, I think 5 & 8 here on the West coast. There will also be a US version of the show starting in September on Fox.
This isn't another "Tivo does it better" thread, but in this case well.. Tivo does it better.
My wife's uncle is a character actor from the 40's-60's and appeared in hundreds of films and TV shows, so on Tivo we setup an Actor wishlist, he was in the list of actors, and it happily records any old episode of Gunsmoke, Lone Ranger or whatever else he was in. If I try and Search on the HR20, he just isn't in the list.
I've noticed this also. Seems the HR20 only keeps a few actors compared to my Tivos. On the Tivos I see up to 6 actors listed but the HR20 only has three.
Also, on the HR10 I setup a wishlist for "Gordon Ramsay" (the foul-mouth British chef) and it records Hell's Kitchen on Fox, Kitchen Nightmares on the BBC and anything else he's on. On the HR20, a search on "Ramsay" only shows Hell's Kitchen even though there is a new episode of Kitchen Nightmares on tonight.
I have a wishlist setup for this show and right now I have 6 episodes on my Tivo. I've tried an autorecord on the HR20 but it doesn't find anything.
It seems this issue keeps getting rehashed every few weeks. Tivo's have access to better data than what the D* DVR's are getting from Tribune...its all about the guide data and how the DVR reads it...we pretty much know that the tribune data is severely lacking in comparison.
I'm not really sure this is the case. Doesn't Zap2It.com also use Tribune data? It's got a complete list of actors for all shows. I think the problem is more that the HR20 parses the guide data and by design eliminates some of it. Remember, the guide data is memory based on the HR20 and disk based on Tivos. It wouldn't surprise me that the designers originally thought they needed to conserve memory and made the decision to keep less of the guide data available.
jonaswan2
07-20-07, 11:19 AM
I'm not really sure this is the case. Doesn't Zap2It.com also use Tribune data? It's got a complete list of actors for all shows. I think the problem is more that the HR20 parses the guide data and by design eliminates some of it. Remember, the guide data is memory based on the HR20 and disk based on Tivos. It wouldn't surprise me that the designers originally thought they needed to conserve memory and made the decision to keep less of the guide data available.
I think you're right on the money, and this goes for every single receiver that uses DIRECTV's APG.
Alan Gordon
07-20-07, 01:24 PM
In a chat session, a DIRECTV employee said we could see some changes to search, possibly including a new "top-level" category search, which is something I'm interested in. I'm not sure how that will impact your issues.
It could be that the HR20 doesn't get the same amount of data sent to it that the HR10s get, which is why your wife's uncle's name can't be found, or that the HR20 gets the same data but doesn't index as deeply. I don't think any of us can answer that.
One of my biggest complaints about going from the TiVo to the HR20 was the differences in search functions as I use Wish Lists a lot (I have about 50-75 of them) and the HR20's search feature just doesn't quite have it yet.
Last February (2-22-06), DirecTV had a webcast in which they released a PDF that announced a new GUI in '07 and "powerful search and recommendation engines." I always hoped/assumed that they would come out at the same time, but maybe they are waiting on VOD to release a better search engine...
Either way, if DirecTV can enhance their search functions (people, keyword, etc...) to the level of the DirecTiVo... or even better, to the level of the Stand-Alone TiVos (which include more information than the DirecTiVos), a lot of my complaints will simply go away regarding the HR20...
What is "top level category search" supposed to be?
~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who's looking forward to being "Cutting Edge"...
One of my biggest complaints about going from the TiVo to the HR20 was the differences in search functions as I use Wish Lists a lot (I have about 50-75 of them) and the HR20's search feature just doesn't quite have it yet.
I agree and have been developing a theory about wishlists and other items I consider as "missing" from D*'s new line of DVRs.
If you just consider DLBs, Suggestions and Wishlists my theory is that the HR20 designers probably didn't have much DVR user experience. There are many folks that have used Tivos before and never knew about or understood these features of Tivo units that many of us use heavily.
I'm not so sure it was a decision to not include these as it was the fact no one on the design team was aware of these features and they were not included simply because no one considered it.
Earl Bonovich
07-20-07, 02:36 PM
Well Suggestions and Wishlists are easy...
Those are Pattented and the terms trademarked, by TiVo, inc.
And are some of their most valueable ones... as those two are ones that TiVo marketed heavily as a feature they had, that no one else does.
Well Suggestions and Wishlists are easy...
Those are Pattented and the terms trademarked, by TiVo, inc.
And are some of their most valueable ones... as those two are ones that TiVo marketed heavily as a feature they had, that no one else does.
I'll have to check my Tivo Patent links when I get home but I'm not sure about that statement.
Suggestions: Yes, the "thumbs" idea is a patent. But D* already has something available online that allows you to enter your preferences and will give you a list of shows you may be interested in. I see no reason that couldn't be available on the HR20 or why your selections on D*'s website couldn't be sent to your HR20 to be recorded via the Internet.
Wishlists: I thought Autorecord was suppose to perform the same function of Wishlists. If I want to record any show Jon Stewart was in I should be able to do that. Correct? How's that a patent? Sure D* can't call it a Wishlist, but I think we're discussing a functionality issue here, not TradeMarks.
The problems described here have nothing to do with TradeMarks or Patents, they have everything to do with the HR20's crippled guide data, sporadic search function and ever popular channels I receive bug.
Don't try to put up some type of blatant D*Fender smoke screen and blame Tivo patents for known flaws in the HR20. You're better than that Earl and we just plain don't buy it.
Tony Chick
07-20-07, 03:14 PM
I'm not really sure this is the case. Doesn't Zap2It.com also use Tribune data? It's got a complete list of actors for all shows. I think the problem is more that the HR20 parses the guide data and by design eliminates some of it. Remember, the guide data is memory based on the HR20 and disk based on Tivos. It wouldn't surprise me that the designers originally thought they needed to conserve memory and made the decision to keep less of the guide data available.
Doesn't Linux use virtual memory, either in a dedicated partition or a swap file?. They should be able to keep large lists in "memory" and have the OS worry about paging it in & out. That, along with caching record data could be a reason why they discourage RBRs.
Alan Gordon
07-20-07, 04:06 PM
Well Suggestions and Wishlists are easy...
Those are Pattented and the terms trademarked, by TiVo, inc.
And are some of their most valueable ones... as those two are ones that TiVo marketed heavily as a feature they had, that no one else does.
I'm aware that DirecTV can't really do Suggestions, but they already have Wishlists... they just call it "Recent Searches" now... and it works fine for me at this moment... although it lacks the program information to do it as well as I want it to.
For instance, I put in a search the other day on my HR20 and I came up with two results for this actress (a movie that airs twice one night in a week or so) yet this actress plays in a TV show that airs in syndication twice every day on two different channels. The TiVo catches them, the HR20 does not. Surely TiVo doesn't have a patent on advanced program data...
Also, I wish DirecTV would have it where after you do a search, it asks you whether or not to keep it in recent searches... or delete it...
~Alan
kevinturcotte
07-20-07, 04:40 PM
My problem with the HR20 is that you can't setup anything to record, or "watch" (Wishlist) if it's not in the guide. For instance, I know the movie Hostel is on next month on Showtime. On my HR10, I can set a wishlist for it, and when I do my weekly search, it'll show up and I'll tell it to record it. On the HR20, I have to rely on my memory when it FINALLY gets into the guide. And that's about as likely to happen as Direct giving me free Premier for a year.
Same thing with actors. On the HR20, I can't set anything up for an actor who's not in the guide data. On the HR10, if the actor I want isn't in the guide data, I can type it in manually, and then eventually, if there's ever anything on that they're in, it'll show up.
Sometimes, I create wishlists that I have NO intention of seeing any results for for upwards of a year. Can't do this with the HR20. And then, even if you could, search for 25 more things, and it's gone.
JACKIEGAGA
07-20-07, 05:12 PM
I always keyword search even actors it seems to work better than an actor search
What is "top level category search" supposed to be?
~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who's looking forward to being "Cutting Edge"...Alan,
A top-level category search would be one more option named "Category" to join "Title", "People" and "Keyword" on the Search menu. If we had it, you would choose "Category" and bypass the input screen, going directly to the Category selection screen. From here you could pick something you're interested in, like "Movies > Science Fiction" to see a list of upcoming Sci Fi Movies. You could then choose to Autorecord that Category search, so you'd always have your favorite category of recordings waiting for you. :)
There's actually a work-around to simulate this auto-record search, by using Keyword search and selecting "SPC" from the input screen. Then choose your category. It will be saved in your recent searches as _ & CATEGORY, where _ is a space and "CATEGORY" is whatever you chose. The only problem with this workaround is when a new software release is installed, the "SPC"-Category search is disabled and you have to recreate it.
(You can also quickly get to a non-auto-record Category search as follows: [Guide] > [Menu] > "Category Sort" and drilling down through the menus to choose something. I find it faster to save my favorite searches using the workaround above.)
Doesn't Linux use virtual memory, either in a dedicated partition or a swap file?. They should be able to keep large lists in "memory" and have the OS worry about paging it in & out. That, along with caching record data could be a reason why they discourage RBRs.
It does, but you really don't want to see a paging Linux system. The swap space allows the system to run using more memory than it has, but if an application has been designed depending on data being in memory and it's not, it's slower than crud. Just think of the speed of memory access versus HD access. Especially using swap space.
Designing a CE device such as a DVR to run based on everything being in memory can really speed it up but can also be disastrous in the even you need more memory. Complicate that further by the original design accounting for limited guide info and you're pretty much stuck between a rock and a hard spot.
My problem with the HR20 is that you can't setup anything to record, or "watch" (Wishlist) if it's not in the guide. For instance, I know the movie Hostel is on next month on Showtime. On my HR10, I can set a wishlist for it, and when I do my weekly search, it'll show up and I'll tell it to record it. On the HR20, I have to rely on my memory when it FINALLY gets into the guide. And that's about as likely to happen as Direct giving me free Premier for a year..You can do this on the HR20 using "Keyword" search. Input "HOSTEL" and then either select "MOVIES" or keep it on "ALL" and begin the search. Then choose Autorecord from the menu. Now you don't have try to remember it! :)
My problem with the HR20 is that you can't setup anything to record, or "watch" (Wishlist) if it's not in the guide. For instance, I know the movie Hostel is on next month on Showtime. On my HR10, I can set a wishlist for it, and when I do my weekly search, it'll show up and I'll tell it to record it. On the HR20, I have to rely on my memory when it FINALLY gets into the guide. And that's about as likely to happen as Direct giving me free Premier for a year.
Same thing with actors. On the HR20, I can't set anything up for an actor who's not in the guide data. On the HR10, if the actor I want isn't in the guide data, I can type it in manually, and then eventually, if there's ever anything on that they're in, it'll show up.
Sometimes, I create wishlists that I have NO intention of seeing any results for for upwards of a year. Can't do this with the HR20. And then, even if you could, search for 25 more things, and it's gone.
+1
kevinturcotte
07-20-07, 06:06 PM
You can do this on the HR20 using "Keyword" search. Input "HOSTEL" and then either select "MOVIES" or keep it on "ALL" and begin the search. Then choose Autorecord from the menu. Now you don't have try to remember it! :)
I didn't realize this. Somewhat works as a work around. Course, what happens after I search for 25 more items? Maybe the HR20 could NOT keep the search result by default, unless you specifically tell it to? That would help some.
I didn't realize this. Somewhat works as a work around. Course, what happens after I search for 25 more items? Maybe the HR20 could NOT keep the search result by default, unless you specifically tell it to? That would help some.I wouldn't really call it a workaround, because the Autorecord Keyword Search exactly replaces functionality of the TiVo AutoRecord WishList search.
The difference is the result though - on the HR20, as you point out, the ARKS (auto-record keyword search - if it hasn't been used yet, I'm patenting it!) uses up a slot in your prioritizer, whereas that limitation doesn't exist on TiVo. The limit on Series Links (including ARKS) is 50, though, not 25.
kevinturcotte
07-20-07, 06:22 PM
That's another problem. I don't want it to auto-record. Just still be there when the movie's finally on (Be it 3 weeks or 23 months).
I think I see what you're getting at now ...
If you set a Keyword Search up, it uses one of the 25 slots permitted for the Recent Searches.
If you set up an AutoRecord Keyword Search, you use up one of the 25 Recent Search slots PLUS one of the 50 Series Link slots.
I agree there should be no limits on either searches or series links, but I can't think of any other suggestions other than occasionally deleting unused or old searches and series links ...
Milominderbinder2
07-30-07, 10:31 AM
Well Suggestions and Wishlists are easy...
Those are Pattented and the terms trademarked, by TiVo, inc.
And are some of their most valueable ones... as those two are ones that TiVo marketed heavily as a feature they had, that no one else does.
Earl,
Can you find out if DIRECTV is as of today legally prevented from using these patents? In other words: Does DIRECTV's contract with TiVo deny DIRECTV access to the patents for Suggestions and Wishlists?
The reason I ask is that I had mistakenly thought that the DIRECTV was legally prevented from including Fast Forward Autocorrection due to patent issues. Then a couple releases back, Fast Forward Autocorrection showed up.
Thanks,
- Craig
Milominderbinder2
07-30-07, 10:37 AM
That's another problem. I don't want it to auto-record. Just still be there when the movie's finally on (Be it 3 weeks or 23 months).
What if the movie is on at 3:00 AM? Or a night you are out? What if when you get done watching the movie you want to save it to show the funny opening to your spouse?
Those were just some of the problems with the old Autotune feature but in the non-DVR world Autotune was all you could do. Well, Sony had an Autotune that could control your VCR to turn it on, record, and turn it off again.
But that is what a DVR does...
That is why DVR's Autorecord. You get the Autotune and still have the right to delete it once you have watched the movie.
- Craig
kevinturcotte
07-30-07, 10:51 AM
I don't have ANY of my wishlists setup for auto record on my HR10. I go in once a week (Usually Monday) and manually select "Search All Wishlists." Before my HR20, I'd just set the HR10 to record it, but now I have to transfer the recording over to the HR20. There are quite a few wishlists I have setup that I don't want it to record everything, as they're category wishlists, or keyword wishlists.
Milominderbinder2
07-30-07, 11:10 AM
I don't have ANY of my wishlists setup for auto record on my HR10. I go in once a week (Usually Monday) and manually select "Search All Wishlists." Before my HR20, I'd just set the HR10 to record it, but now I have to transfer the recording over to the HR20. There are quite a few wishlists I have setup that I don't want it to record everything, as they're category wishlists, or keyword wishlists.
That you can do.
Just do your HR20 Search and it will automatically be saved unless you click Delete at the end. Go back and run your Searches once a week on the HR20. We do this to avoid Autorecording.
- Craig
kevinturcotte
07-30-07, 11:59 AM
But then there's the problem of a movie I want to see that's not going to be on for 8-10 months. I want to see the Simpsons movie. But if I search for it right now, it won't show up, and it'll be gone by the time the movie actually gets on any of the movie channels. That particular movie I would remember I want to watch, but I'd have to see a commercial or something for it when it hit the movie channels. A lot of movies, though, I make a wishlist, and when they finally show up months later, I don't remember making the wishlist for them, or even what the movie is about, I just know I wanted to watch it. How would I accomplish this on the HR20?
But then there's the problem of a movie I want to see that's not going to be on for 8-10 months. I want to see the Simpsons movie. But if I search for it right now, it won't show up, and it'll be gone by the time the movie actually gets on any of the movie channels. That particular movie I would remember I want to watch, but I'd have to see a commercial or something for it when it hit the movie channels. A lot of movies, though, I make a wishlist, and when they finally show up months later, I don't remember making the wishlist for them, or even what the movie is about, I just know I wanted to watch it. How would I accomplish this on the HR20?You would have to do what I suggested earlier: Set up an Autorecord Keyword Search (ARKS) for "SIMPSONS" with category "MOVIE" and if you know the sub-category ("animation?", "comedy?"), add that as well.
The bad news is this ARKS will take up one slot in your Prioritizer, but it will look for and record any movie with SIMPONS as a keyword. This could mean SIMPSONS is in the title, or in the description, so it could potentially also record a movie where Jessica Simpson is in the description. EDIT: I take that back - If you add the "S" to the end, it would have to match SIMPSONS, plural, but it could still be something else OTHER than the movie that ends up being added to the To Do list.
Unfortunately, the HR20 only has one KEYWORD search type, and it searches EVERYTHING. The TiVo had several types of "Wish Lists", including Title, Director, Keyword, etc., so you could narrow the focus of the search on the TiVo, but you can't on the HR20.
The only thing to do is set your ARKS up for the movie, and then once a week look at your To Do list and cancel any upcoming recording for SIMPSONS that ISN'T one you want. (You can do that simply by pressing [STOP] on the title in the To Do list.)
kevinturcotte
07-30-07, 06:51 PM
What happens to Auto Record searches when you go over the 25 limit mark? Does it delete them, or delete others, or what?
What happens to Auto Record searches when you go over the 25 limit mark? Does it delete them, or delete others, or what?I just checked, and apparently I have 25 recent searches! :)
I just created a new one to see what happens ...
It accepted my input, showed the results, and when I went to Recent Searches ... I still have 25 total. In other words, it knocks one out and replaces it. I have a lot of nonsense searches, but I did just realize which one was deleted: My keyword search for "IAMANEDGECUTTER" ... That was my oldest search, so guess when you're at a limit of 25, a new search will replace the oldest search in your list. That's also bad news if your oldest search is an AutoRecord search. :(
kevinturcotte
07-30-07, 08:26 PM
I doubt they could ever use the actual term Wishlist, but maybe 2 separate search lists? One immediate, like now, and deletes as soon as you're finished with it, and a long term one, like the wishlists.
Or at LEAST up the number of searches to, well, infinite would be great. I think I have over 100 on my HR10. Do a "Search All" feature, and maybe be able to go in and mark which ones you want deleted, like in the Now Playing List, or mark which ones you want searched.
I think I'm going to be lost come September when all the new channels appear, and no way to search through them with wishlists.
I have heard that DIRECTV is looking into adding a true top-level category search, and that would be great, because it would eliminate this kluge of a workaround.
I don't see any legal reasons that DIRECTV can't just update or expand the existing keyword ssearch to permit a "type" to be selected. What are you searchng for? You should be able to specify this: Title, Actor, Director, Category, or "anything".
kevinturcotte
07-30-07, 08:43 PM
It's not just what I'm searching for, it's like I mentioned before. I'd LOVE transfer all 100 (Or so) wishlists over to the HR20, and STILL have them ALL there when the show finally comes on, be it 2 weeks from now, or 12 months from now.
Milominderbinder2
07-31-07, 10:50 AM
You are also touching on another bug in the HR20. It is supposed to be able to do a:
Title Search Autorecord - pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=75653), 0x119 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=76259), & 0x11b (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=77020)
So you could set up a search for the title such as "The Simpsons Moivie".
Problem one is that although the manual says you can auto record a title search, you cannot.
Problem two is that Title Search does not let you enter a title. All you can do is select from a list of titles currently in the Guide. So since, the movie you want is not out yet, you can't set up a title search.
- Craig
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