D* disagrees with everybody on this forum about Native mode

[furjaw]

Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions.
But, the User Guide says the opposite!
I called D* Tech Support and he said to turn Native OFF for faster channel changes because the receiver won't be converting anything.

[convem24]

Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions.
But, the User Guide says the opposite!
I called D* Tech Support and he said to turn Native OFF for faster channel changes because the receiver won't be converting anything.

I have my D* receiver setup for native off not on. I have seen retail feeds at Best Buy and Circuit City (I am a gadget nut so I spend far too much time in electronics stores) on both and Native off is better in my opinion (again I reserve the right to be wrong). I only report I have seen.

[veryoldschool]

Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions.
But, the User Guide says the opposite!
I called D* Tech Support and he said to turn Native OFF for faster channel changes because the receiver won't be converting anything.
In a way this is a true statement.
"Won't be converting anything" would refer to not having to cycle through what the broadcast resolution is. The receiver would stay fixed to the manual setting.
As for the manual, with native off again the receiver will stay at the fixed resolution you've set it to. If you change channels [another resolution from the broadcaster] the receive doesn't do anything.
With Native ON the receiver will change to whatever the broadcaster resolution is for each channel. This causes an increase in tune time as the receiver needs to buffer the new setting before it send it to the TV [which then will also need to buffer the new resolution before the image show up on the display].
Buffers & scalers add to the time it takes. Everytime the resolution changes they all need to start over.

So: "Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions." means the receiver will not convert the resolution from something other than what the broadcaster sent.

Makes sense now? :)

[veryoldschool]

I have my D* receiver setup for native off not on. I have seen retail feeds at Best Buy and Circuit City (I am a gadget nut so I spend far too much time in electronics stores) on both and Native off is better in my opinion (again I reserve the right to be wrong). I only report I have seen.
We all have different equipment and use our own eyes to judge what we feel is best.
I think "my TV scaler" does a better job than the receiver does, so I use native ON.
This doesn't mean it is right for you with your equipment or your eyes.
We each should "play with" the settings and find what we like best, and that will be the correct [right] setting for ourselves. There is no one answer "fits all" for this setting.

[bwaldron]

We all have different equipment and use our own eyes to judge what we feel is best.
I think "my TV scaler" does a better job than the receiver does, so I use native ON.
This doesn't mean it is right for you with your equipment or your eyes.
We each should "play with" the settings and find what we like best, and that will be the correct [right] setting for ourselves. There is no one answer "fits all" for this setting.

Well said, VOS. (I agree)

[boltjames]

Well said, VOS. (I agree)

Exactly.

A $4000 Sony XBR2 will have a scaling and processing chipset that will do a better job than a D* STB.

Conversely, a $499 Sylvania doorbuster special will have cut corners in that area and many will find that the D* STB is superior.

It's all about the quality of your specific panel's circuitry. In the case of my two Sony 1080p panels, there is no question that the HR20's native mode has been the single biggest benefit I have experienced in making the jump from the HR10. Forget the Tivo UI and the buffers and all that other stuff; the increase in picture quality alone was worth the price of admission. With native 'on' and my Sony's doing the heavy lifting, the quality of the picture is staggering.

So......if you have a high-quality HDTV, please spend a lot of time studying the variance between native on/off. I'd hate to see you short-change the viewing experience. It's not a black/white answer.

BJ

[paulman182]

My Pannys show slightly more detail with Native On when viewing 1080i, but to the rest of the family, the slowness of the channel change makes it not worth the trouble.

And you really have to look hard to see the improvement.

[tonyd79]

So: "Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions." means the receiver will not convert the resolution from something other than what the broadcaster sent.


Also assumes that the resolutions are all turned on. Even with Native On if you turn off a resolution in setup, it will convert away from that resolution. Through trial and error, I have determined that doing away with 480i/p on the HR20 improves my SD picture and makes channel changing to SD channels faster, so I only output 720p or 1080i from the HR20. SD programming goes to 720p.

[veryoldschool]

Also assumes that the resolutions are all turned on. Even with Native On if you turn off a resolution in setup, it will convert away from that resolution. Through trial and error, I have determined that doing away with 480i/p on the HR20 improves my SD picture and makes channel changing to SD channels faster, so I only output 720p or 1080i from the HR20. SD programming goes to 720p.
Your right, but resolution in under another tab or page in the setup menu.
BTW: SD is where I see the biggest difference between my TV doing the scaling and the HR-20 doing it [so I have 480 selected and wait for it].
Never just a one setting fits all. :)

[Stuart Sweet]

I would love to use native mode but for some reason my Philips TV shows 4:3 programming too narrow. On a 37" TV the black pillars are roughly 2" wider on each side comparing 4:3 480i programming to 1080i pillar box. It's clear the TV is wrong and DIRECTV is right. Firmware update doesn't help, AVSforum wasn't any help, so I'm living with it.

[Wood14]

I could be wrong on this but this is how I see it. I have a 1080p Panny. The TV has to convert everything from the HR20 up to 1080p. With the Native ON, every signal has to be converted once by the TV. If I had the native off and set to say 1080i, if the show wasn't it 1080i the HR20 would have to convert it to 1080i...then the TV would have to convert it to 1080p.

I have found this the 'best' feature of the HR20. I can see a significant improvement in picture quality over the HR10. Major improvement on SD. My PT-56DLX76 was one of the few that passed some scaling test on cnet. (I'm a novice) I feel it does a great job of converting up to 1080p.

Let me know if I'm way off base, but this is what I think is going on with the Native On.

[veryoldschool]

I would love to use native mode but for some reason my Philips TV shows 4:3 programming too narrow. On a 37" TV the black pillars are roughly 2" wider on each side comparing 4:3 480i programming to 1080i pillar box. It's clear the TV is wrong and DIRECTV is right. Firmware update doesn't help, AVSforum wasn't any help, so I'm living with it.
I've seen this [or something very close] and need to go through my settings everytime I connect up something new.
Does your TV have a "full" setting? My Sonys have needed to be "told" their getting a 720 x 480 signal. For mine the two combinations are: HR-20 pillarbox and TV full or HR-20 stretch and TV normal for SD 4:3 programs. [the latter has the guide stay within the 4:3 image and the former doesn't]

[LR308er]

All that bufferin' gives me a headache ;)

Could the double buffering be what's causing the AV sync issues?

[Chuck W]

Your right, but resolution in under another tab or page in the setup menu.
BTW: SD is where I see the biggest difference between my TV doing the scaling and the HR-20 doing it [so I have 480 selected and wait for it].
Never just a one setting fits all. :)

Agreed on the 480 mode. This main reason I use Native ON, in the HR20. With native on, the HR20 will send the TV a 480i picture, when in SD, and my TV will then use it's "Just" mode. "Just" mode, on my TV, doesn't stretch the middle of the picture(where your attention is most) and only stretches the sides, so a 4x3 SD picture looks more natural, spread out on a 16x9 screen.

Instead of doing my normal channel surfing, I find myself using the mini guide a LOT. This allows me to see what's on, without having to deal with the slower channel changes. However, I don't feel like the channel changes are all that much slower anyway.

[Stuart Sweet]

I've seen this [or something very close] and need to go through my settings everytime I connect up something new.
Does your TV have a "full" setting? My Sonys have needed to be "told" their getting a 720 x 480 signal. For mine the two combinations are: HR-20 pillarbox and TV full or HR-20 stretch and TV normal for SD 4:3 programs. [the latter has the guide stay within the 4:3 image and the former doesn't]

I don't think it has such a setting and that's probably the problem. I'll scour the menus again tonight. I downloaded codes to get into service mode, and I was surprised there wasn't anything there either.

[veryoldschool]

Agreed on the 480 mode. This main reason I use Native ON, in the HR20. With native on, the HR20 will send the TV a 480i picture, when in SD, and my TV will then use it's "Just" mode. "Just" mode, on my TV, doesn't stretch the middle of the picture(where your attention is most) and only stretches the sides, so a 4x3 SD picture looks more natural, spread out on a 16x9 screen.

Instead of doing my normal channel surfing, I find myself using the mini guide a LOT. This allows me to see what's on, without having to deal with the slower channel changes. However, I don't feel like the channel changes are all that much slower anyway.
This seems to again prove why we each need to try all of the settings until we find what we like.
Your "Just mode" is done by TNT on their HD channel sometimes when the program isn't. I have referred to it a vary-o-vision as opposed to their stretch-o-vision.
I find it quite distracting as actors move through the scene and gain, lose, gain 30-50 lbs, but this is just "me" and why all of these settings are nice to have.

[veryoldschool]

I don't think it has such a setting and that's probably the problem. I'll scour the menus again tonight. I downloaded codes to get into service mode, and I was surprised there wasn't anything there either.
The service menu isn't the best place for something like this, unless it's an over/underscan problem.
You have a crop/ zoom/ something setting? This is where it's been on my two Sonys.

[ATARI]

I have found the 1 to 2 seconds extra tuning time is worth it for the picture quality.

Also, I (and the wife) are learning to surf less and use the guide more to choose what we want to watch. Plus most of what we watch is recorded now anyway, so tuning time is mostly a moot point.

[hasan]

There is no substitute for trying the various settings (native on/off, and supported resolutions) and seeing what you prefer.

Preferences will include not only picture quality, but speed, user convenience, the capabilities of your HDTV, etc.

One size doesn't fit all....and in this case, it doesn't even come close.

Play around and see what you like.

[bonscott87]

Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions.
But, the User Guide says the opposite!

I think you might be confused as with Native ON, the receiver *will* change resolutions based on the ones you selected. I don't think anyone here has posted that not to be the case.


I called D* Tech Support and he said to turn Native OFF for faster channel changes because the receiver won't be converting anything.

This is sort true as noted above. It is still may be up or down converting, it's just not changing the format it does it in. So if you turn Native OFF and leave it on 1080i, the receiver happily just sends out 1080i no matter what channel you're on, thus it's not changing resolution which then forces your TV to resync to the new format. This is what takes the extra channel changing time.

[tonyd79]

Your right, but resolution in under another tab or page in the setup menu.
BTW: SD is where I see the biggest difference between my TV doing the scaling and the HR-20 doing it [so I have 480 selected and wait for it].
Never just a one setting fits all. :)

My TV is XBR1. I think I read that the XBR2 does a much better job of upconverting SD programming. If so, I can see the difference. Likewise with my DVD player. Letting it convert 480p to 1080i is better than sending 480p to my TV and letting it upconvert.

I have seen very little difference with 720p versus the HR20 doing the converting to 1080i but I figure there must be some as there would be two conversions going on (720p to 1080i then a deinterlacing), so I live with the transition for 720p.

[Milominderbinder2]

Everybody in this forum says if you turn Native ON, the receiver will not change the resolutions.
But, the User Guide says the opposite!
I called D* Tech Support and he said to turn Native OFF for faster channel changes because the receiver won't be converting anything.
Here is what the manual (User Guide) says on page 74:

If you turn on Native mode, the receiver will automatically adjust resolution to
match the resolution of individual TV programs as they are tuned.

They give a good example showing how Native Mode Off works on page 83:

For example, if you indicated that your TV supports only 1080i, 480i and 480p and it is a 16:9 television, and Native is turned off*, the cycle of settings for the FORMAT key are as follows...

...In Native mode, the receiver automatically adjusts resolutions to match the resolution of individual TV programs as they are tuned...

...If Native is turned on, the FORMAT key cycles through Stretch, Letter and Crop for the current TV program’s native resolution.

Both are exactly correct. Where does the User Guide say the opposite of this?

Also tech support was spot on. Staying in one resolution allows faster channel changes.

As Hasan said, try different settings for yourself and see what is best for you.

- Craig

[convem24]

We all have different equipment and use our own eyes to judge what we feel is best.
I think "my TV scaler" does a better job than the receiver does, so I use native ON.
This doesn't mean it is right for you with your equipment or your eyes.
We each should "play with" the settings and find what we like best, and that will be the correct [right] setting for ourselves. There is no one answer "fits all" for this setting.

A scaler changes the game at that point, but most TVs I have seen without a scaler seem to perform better with native off but again I reserve the right to be wrong. Overall I guess it depends on the brand of TV and how well that tv deals with native settings.

[armophob]

This would be so much easier if they would just broadcast all programming in 1080i.

[pprather]

i can see a very noticeable difference using my Elite CRT with the native ON and 480i 720p and 1080i selected. The problem i have is every once in a while the HDMI will cause the machine to lock up. It's an HDMI to DVI cable. So it's a little frustrating. I ended up turning native to OFF to bypass this headache. I notice the biggest difference on SD programs.

[BuffaloDenny]

We all have different equipment and use our own eyes to judge what we feel is best.
I think "my TV scaler" does a better job than the receiver does, so I use native ON.
This doesn't mean it is right for you with your equipment or your eyes.
We each should "play with" the settings and find what we like best, and that will be the correct [right] setting for ourselves. There is no one answer "fits all" for this setting.

+1

[Philby]

So if I set it to native and only select 720p and 1080i - what will it output when I come to an SD (480i)? 720p? 1080i? nothing?

[machavez00]

So if I set it to native and only select 720p and 1080i - what will it output when I come to an SD (480i)? 720p? 1080i? nothing?

720p

[cygnusloop]

So if I set it to native and only select 720p and 1080i - what will it output when I come to an SD (480i)? 720p? 1080i? nothing?

In this case, SD will be outputted at 720p.

If format is set to pillarbox, you will get the HR20 generated pillars, intended to be viewed in a 16:9 environment.

If format is set to crop, the top and bottom of the picture will be lopped off, good for letterboxed SD programming, intended to be viewed in a 16x9 environment.

If format is set to stretch, nothing will be appended to the frame, nor any cropping applied. If the HDTV is in a 16:9 mode, then it will, in fact, appear stretched. If the HDTV is in a 4:3 viewing mode (as in the TV is generating the pillars), the frame will not be stretched or squished in any way. Stretch is also the appropriate mode if you want to use one of the variable stretch modes that some TV's have for 4:3 programming.

EDIT: All that being said, some HDTV's don't allow for switching between 4:3 and 16:9 modes if the incoming resolution is an HD resolution (720p/1080i), although some do. The simple fix to this, even for those TV's that don't support 480i over HDMI is to enable 480p in the resolutions tab.

This has the advantage of allowing the HDTV (in almost all cases) to have a setting for SD stuff (like TV generated pillars) and a 16:9 setting for HD stuff. this way, when you switch between SD and HD programming, the TV knows how to format the picture to your liking. The fact that my TV will automatically put up its pillars (which are far superior to the HR20's) whenever I am watching a SD program is one of the key advantages to native mode, IMHO.

[machavez00]

I could be wrong on this but this is how I see it. I have a 1080p Panny. The TV has to convert everything from the HR20 up to 1080p. With the Native ON, every signal has to be converted once by the TV. If I had the native off and set to say 1080i, if the show wasn't it 1080i the HR20 would have to convert it to 1080i...then the TV would have to convert it to 1080p

My Sammy does not pass 480i over HDMI and this is why I have 720p/1080i selected. Instead of SD doing a 480i>480p>720p convert, I have 480i>720p, and 1080i at the set. If your set supports all resolutions over HDMI, native on, all selected, is the way to go with a 1080p set. IMHO

[machavez00]

Samsung sets call "TNT Stretch-o-Vision" "Panorama"

[RehabMan]

..., the TV knows how to format the picture to your liking. The fact that my TV will automatically put up its pillars (which are far superior to the HR20's) whenever I am watching a SD program is one of the key advantages to native mode, IMHO.

The disadvantage of having your 16:9 TV put up its pillars for 4:3 content is that then the HR20 GUI (guide, list, etc) are displayed with pillars. Allowing the HR20 to do the pillars avoids pillars in the HR20 GUI.

A trade off, I suppose.

[cygnusloop]

The disadvantage of having your 16:9 TV put up its pillars for 4:3 content is that then the HR20 GUI (guide, list, etc) are displayed with pillars. Allowing the HR20 to do the pillars avoids pillars in the HR20 GUI.

A trade off, I suppose.

A very good point, RehabMan, and one I should have stated up front. But for me, the trade off is more than worth it. Why? I've posted it before, but here it is again:

Why I prefer my TV's pillarbars. A short Rant in two parts.

Part One.
I prefer my TV's pillarbars because they have some overscan. The HR20's pillarbars just append black (or grey) bars to the 640x480 frame. With the HR20's bars, you see all the "junk" in the "gutters" of the 4:3 frame. Sometimes this junk is not that bad, but sometimes it's a bright blue line. On some British programs, it's just hideous black and white checkerboard looking stuff. My TV's pillarbars hide all this "junk".

Part Two.
I prefer my TV's pillarbars because they are really, really black. I have a DLP TV. So I don't have burn in(out) concerns, but those equally apply. The DLP generated edges are razor sharp, and the bars are just dead, black pixels. IMO, the DLP creates a superior 4:3 frame for viewing 4:3 content when compared to the pillarbox mode of the HR20.

[cygnusloop]

duplicate post for some reason. sorry

[harsh]

My Pannys show slightly more detail with Native On when viewing 1080i, but to the rest of the family, the slowness of the channel change makes it not worth the trouble.As most all (if not all) 1080i content is upscaled by the receiver horizontally, it is unlikely that the difference that you perceive is real.