Time for a new receiver...

[Richard King]

The time has come to replace my old prologic preamp/amplifier system with an 5.1 or better receiver of some kind. One thng that I will insist on is a receiver with processing loop connectors on the back so that I can use some external processing equipment that I have and don't want to part with. I am leaning towards either Onkyo or Denon as far as brand goes, however I am open to other suggestions. I would like somewhere in the area of 100 WPC or so. Throw out some ideas if anyone has some. The time to replace is early next month. Figure a budget of up to $800 or so. I can get most Denon or Onkyo from one of my distributors at dealer cost (just a bit lower than BB or CC prices).

[James_F]

I've always liked Denon. Check out the AVR-3802 which I was going to get before I got the wife pregnant. :grin: The only thing it isn't is THX certified, but you didn't mention that being an important feature... Its got Dolby Digital 6.1 and DTS-ES, Dolby Pro Logic II and DTS Neo:6....

[BobaBird]

Those are the features I'd be looking for also. To pick a nit, there is no "DD 6.1". Surround EX uses matrix decoding similar to Pro Logic to extract the back center channel. Make sure you have enough digital inputs for future additions to your system and consider component video switching if you will have DVD, HDTV and a DTV recorder (assuming component output is allowed). Many receivers have a 5.1 input for DVD-Audio but pre/main loops are harder to come by.

[Richard King]

I just realized something that may throw a wrench into this decision process. The processing equipment that I want to use (DBX 3Bx three band dynamic range expander and DBX 120XP subharmonic synthesizer) require a fixed output (similar to a tape out) rather than a variable output. I don't know of any pre/main loops that provide a fixed out, with the main volume control AFTER the pre out. This should be interesting. Currently I only use the processors on the output of my JVC D-VHS Dish unit, which is a fixed level. When I go to a DD unit of some kind I will be using the DD output of the JVC, eliminating the signal path that I currently use. This is why the need for fixed outs on the receiver of some kind.

[STXJim]

Richard,
I have a Denon 3801. It was discontinued for the 3802. The only difference is mine is Pro Logic and the 3802 is Prologic II. An improvement.
This is an excellent receiver and it is in your price range.
Check out the Denon 3802. (http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-OMlruixmon5/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=4&g=10420&l=033AVR3802&o=m&a=0)
If it fit your needs........
I highly recommend it! :)

Richard, I can't figure out why my link wouldn't work.
Click on the "Receivers, Speakers, Home A/V" (at the top, left) link, then Home Theater Receivers (to your right) and you can scrool down to the 3802 and check out everything about it.

[Bill D]

Not sure which may model may have your specs but I have a Marantz SR 7000. it's a great product with a lot of extras (like DC triggers, good remotes and multi room). They make great products.

[Richard King]

Thanks for all the advice (so far). I am closing on the sale of a condo next Monday (if all goes well) and so, the time draws nearer.

Jim. I looked at the 3801 and it might be a potential winner, if the pre ins/outs that they talk about and show on the back panel here: http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-f9c7ZqJUCbN/ProdView.asp?s=0&g=10420&id=morephotos&pi=2&i=033AVR3802&display=XL are also pre volume control. I wish the manufacturers would publish flow charts for their components. I am going to talk to my Denon distributor that I work though and see if he knows, although I suspect not. It will probably mean a call to the factory guy who will get back to my rep in about a month so that my rep can get back to me in another month. :( I still haven't found any other one that has the fixed outputs and returns (pre volume control) that I am looking for though. If all else fails, I may end up bumping the budget a little bit and consider components rather than a receiver if I can once again find the right one to suit my desires.

[Richard King]

Well, a decision has been made, sort of. I have registered for the CES show taking place next month in Las Vegas and most likely will make the trip to check things out at the show. A final decision will await the return from the show. Another that I am considering is an HK 500 series, or, if I decide to expand the budget, an HK AVR8000. Any thoughts on these receivers. They appear to be rated at lower power than some in the same range, but I have seen reports that they are much more honest in power ratings than many other manufacturers.

[Frank Z]

Take a look at the Pioneer Elite line up. The VSX-43tx receiver is a great piece of equipment. 7.1 channels, THX Ulta2, DD ES DTS-EX. Tough to beat!

[cnsf]

Also, I'm very happy with my Yamaha RX-V1200. They make a nice line with lots of good extras on the higher end. I went for "bang for the buck."

http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gAVR00010RX-V1200

[Unthinkable]

I have a Denon AVR-3802 and would highly recommend it myself. Great receiver. The Dolby Pro-Logic 2 works awesome with the Nintendo Gamecube to name one source which doesn't support a true DD output. DTS ES 6.1 and Dolby Digital EX sound pretty superb with well mastered DVDs as well. I believe there are a ton of DVD's out there that were mixed with the extra rear center channel even though they don't make a point of explicitly saying so on the back of the DVD cases. X-Box games really sound great on it. Really enjoyed listening to the score/sound effects of Halo over and over again through this setup.

[Richard King]

Well, I will not be able to make it to the CES Show (again) due to too many things going on here. A new HK model (AVR7200) has jumped up to the top of the list. It is supposed to be available this month. Details are here: http://harmankardon.com/product_detail.asp?cat=REC&prod=AVR%207200&sType=C Retail is going to be $1495, but I can get it for considerably less (I don't have final figures yet) from one of my distributors. Take a look and throw out any opinions.

[Mark Lamutt]

I want one...

I've had an HK AVR110 for a couple of years now and really like it. This would be an amazing upgrade for me. No mention of how many component video inputs it can switch, but I'd assume that it'll be at least 2 and maybe 3. Now I just have to convince my wife that we really need a new receiver... :D

[Scott Greczkowski]

I will jump in here and also recommend the Denon 3802, its what I have in my main viewing area and I love it!

[runningjoe]

I didn't realize that Denon was so popular. I am putting my room back together after installing a new 6.1 system. The Denon 4302 is an outstanding unit, and you know, this version of THX is actually worth having. The next model up adds 50 watts RMS per channel and THX Ultra 2, but I was already waaay over budget.

Happy hunting.

[bearklaw]

Originally posted by Rking401
Thanks for all the advice (so far). I am closing on the sale of a condo next Monday (if all goes well) and so, the time draws nearer.

Jim. I looked at the 3801 and it might be a potential winner, if the pre ins/outs that they talk about and show on the back panel here: http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-f9c7ZqJUCbN/ProdView.asp?s=0&g=10420&id=morephotos&pi=2&i=033AVR3802&display=XL are also pre volume control.

The pre in/outs on my 4800 are pre volume control, which surprised the heck out of me, since I was expecting them to be post volume control. I run them to an external A/D converter and the volume control has no effect on the signal coming out.

I would expect that the 380x is similar, but don't know for sure. If you buy from a local dealer they will probably let you try the amp in your home and swap it for something else if it doesn't meet your needs.

I tried a 3800 when I was shopping, and it is a great unit. My only complaint was that when driving my 4-ohm speakers the fan would come on, which really annoyed me. I eventually opened the wallet and went with the 4800, which can handle 4-ohm speakers without triggering the fan.

-BearKlaw

[JayeDVXIII]

This is the best reciever I've seen in ages :-)

http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-mAKdvtKY66J/ProdView.asp?i=133SAXR10&id=morephotos&a=0&s=0

[STXJim]

Originally posted by Rking401

I can get it for considerably less
Take a look and throw out any opinions.

Richard,
My opinion is a question.......
This thread is almost a year old!
Why in the world haven't you deceided yet?:shrug:
Are you a 'little old lady' in disguise?:p
It sounds like you have been waiting a year to save a couple of dollars.
You have stated before that you can get a good deal.....but you don't take it.
What good is money if you don't spend it?
Just think...If you had purchased something 10 months ago when you started this thread...........
You would have been (and still) enjoying your new sound.
I have several friends that are like you and I really don't know why you (and them) are depriving yourself.
And Please....Don't tell me you can't afford it!
I've read your previous posts.:)
Do yourself a big favor and make a decision tomorrow.;)
This might be the oldest, active thread in DBSTalk history......I don't know.
It's time for you to close it now. :)
Spend your damn money! :D

>EDIT<
I think I know what your response will be.........
I can't find what I'm looking for.
If that's the case, you won't. It's been too long.
You will have to settle with what you can get.
Been there; done that!
Many times.

Jim

[Richard King]

Richard,
My opinion is a question.......
This thread is almost a year old!
Why in the world haven't you deceided yet?
While I did start this thread last year, I didn't start it until November of last year. :D

Are you a 'little old lady' in disguise?Nope, still 100% male last time I checked. :lol:

Just think...If you had purchased something 10 months ago when you started this thread...........
3 months. :D I have been so busy lately that I wouldn't have been using it anyway. I have been living away from my house in a condo I am remodeling. Just moved in some renters today, so this moves closer to the front lines again.
You would have been (and still) enjoying your new sound.
I have several friends that are like you and I really don't know why you (and them) are depriving yourself.
I am awaiting the arrival of the HK AVR7200 to the marketplace. I hope it will make it this month and I hope I don't end up as a beta tester. :lol:
This might be the oldest, active thread in DBSTalk history......I don't know.Nah, not even close I am sure. :D

[Richard King]

Just to keep this alive for a while longer, I spoke to my HK distributor this morning and the 7200 will not be available until sometime in mid March now. So, this thread will be kept alive for at least another month. :D

[Ryan]

Just a quick question...aren't pre in/outs by definition pre-anything?? Aren't they designed to provide you a signal unadjusted in any way, including volume?

[Richard King]

Pre out usually refers to pre-AMPLIFIER out. Usually it is simply a signal tapped out from the low level stage of the system before the power amplifier. The signal can be tapped off either pre or post volume control, although I think it is most common post VC. An external equalizer doesn't care if the signal is pre or post VC, however, an external amplifier, which is probably the most common use of this type of circuit wants a signal post VC. The preferable method for my application is pre volume control, with the returns routed back also pre volume control. I will probably get the above mentioned receiver even if it is not to my kikings for the outs/ins.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by Ryan
Just a quick question...aren't pre in/outs by definition pre-anything?? Aren't they designed to provide you a signal unadjusted in any way, including volume?

Yeah, "Pre-Out" is short for Preamlifier Output. It's just like the output of a seperate preamplifier; i.e. after tone controls, balance control & volume control.

If you want a "pass through" output w/o any processing use a Tape Output. But be careful because you're sending full gain to the next component.

It's not intuitive, but other than the phono section Preamplifiers don't amplify anything. They actually attenuate the signal down to an acceptable level to feed the Power Amplifier.

[Roger]

Rking:

If you can come up with the cash then get separates rather than an all-in-one box so you can keep what you want to keep then upgrade later without having to replace the entire box.

These mass-produced receivers are that... mass-produced to sale and thus quality is usually poor in the process. Many (if not all) receivers use nothing but a bunch of computer chips for power rather than having massive heat-sinks (sp?) so rated wattage means nothing and the amount of current is what really counts. For example: I have an Adcom 555II rated at 250 watts (I believe) and an Aragon 8008BB rated around 250 watts too and the Aragon blows it away easily in current output not to mention sound quality.

I suggest you get a 5 channel amp then you can keep what you want and upgrade the preamp, processors and etc. as much as your heart desires. Check out Aragon because this stuff really sounds great.

[Richard King]

Hey.... What are you doing here today? :D Actually, I have separates right now, a fairly old AMC AV81HT (http://www.roister.com/eng/av81ht.htm) DPL processor with AMC amps and Denon tuner. I liked it, but the DPL chip died (for the second time) and I am tired of getting it fixed. I sold one of the amps (4x45 or 2x90) to one of my customers and have been limping along with stereo only for about a year. I am looking forward to getting the rear channels (Monitor Audio Studio 6's) http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/Products/Past_Products/Studio_Series/studio_6.htm and center channel (RBH) http://www.rbhsound.com/inroom/mcseries/mc-414c.htm going again. I guess I could get crazy eventually if I went the separates route, and biamp all my speakers. My fronts (JBL 4430's http://www.srpl.com/~robert/index4430.html) and the Monitor Audio rears are set up for bi-amping. I am not at home right now so I can't check the center, but I don't believe it is set up for bi-amping. By the way, once I get the surround working properly, my next project is a front projector. I just looked at some DLP projectors at a convention a couple of weeks ago and they are starting to look pretty good, still not at CRT level, but getting there (and much cheaper). My room could be set up very well for a front screen http://www.pbase.com/rking401/my_home_theatre

[Roger]

Rking:

"Hey.... What are you doing here today?"

I'm bored out of my skull and have no rants so I'm visiting this forum which I use to know about when I use to have extra spending money.

"am looking forward to getting the rear channels (Monitor Audio Studio 6's"

In what finish? I love Rosewood. This looks like a fine speaker.

Here is what I have:
http://www.legacy-audio.com/2003/classic.html

I just love them. I have the Rosewood finish which is not a standard finish. Traditional, classical Christmas songs do
bring tears to my eyes since these speakers sound so sweet.
I have around 20k invested into a two channel system.

"RBH center channel"
"My fronts (JBL 4430's"
http://www.srpl.com/~robert/index4430.html

For crying out loud... you want to feed these beast with a stinking receiver? You need Krell mono-blocks for the JBL's. :D

"My room could be set up very well for a front screen http://www.pbase.com/rking401/my_home_theatre"

UGGHHH!!! You have a speaker beside the wall, too??!

Good luck and let us know what you get.

[Roger]

PS......

A turntable on a speaker? That's a new one!:D
I assume you can't turn it up very loud unless the needle will skip acroos the LP????? LOL! :D

[Roger]

" I guess I could get crazy eventually if I went the separates route"

If you have the money then DO IT!! Life is so short and seperates are so sweet! Not to mention giving you more flexibility.

[Richard King]

I'm bored out of my skull What!!! No black helicopters to chase today? :D
In what finish?Piano finish rosewood. The finish is so reflective you can see your face in it. The funny thing is that my Monitor Audio Studio 6's were more expensive at retail than my JBL's. I got both sets at salesman accommodation cost (about 50% of retail) and they threw in the custom finish on the MA's. UGGHHH!!! You have a speaker beside the wall, too??! No choice the way the room is laid out.

Here is what I have: Very nice. :D They weigh in at almost as much as my JBL's (125 lbs ea.) But my JBL's have a 15" woof so your cabinets must be very massive.

[Roger]

"What!!! No black helicopters to chase today? "

No spray-jets producing chemtrails for the most part. The chemails are few and are blowing in rather than being produced while I watch.:D

"Piano finish rosewood"

Nice!


"No choice the way the room is laid out."

I see that. What the hell are you ding with a fire place in Florida, anyway?

"Very nice. They weigh in at almost as much as my JBL's (125 lbs ea.) But my JBL's have a 15" woof so your cabinets must be very massive."

Not at all. They are pretty skinny but are heavier than hell because they contain a lot of stuff. I think this is a 5-way speaker instead of the normal 2 and 3-way speakers that most people have.

It has two 10" subs (one rear), A 7.5 mid-woofer, a 2.5 mid-range, a super ribbon tweeter; and a rear-firing 1" tweater.
It also has four switches on the back to controls different things. For example: If you have to put one in a corner then there is a switch to cut the bass to avoid "room-boom" and three other switches to change the setting or the sound or speaker. Legacy's are great!

If I ever buy another speaker it will be by Legacy.

[Richard King]

A turntable on a speaker? That's a new oneAh, but that's not a normal turntable. The base is a man made granite resin material and it weighs a ton. I can't turn it up as much as I would like to, but I can still get it blasting. I have moved it to my computer now (through a Rane PS-1 pre-amp http://www.rane.com/ps1.html) so that I can make cd's of some of my old records, so that problem is solved.

[Richard King]

I see that. What the hell are you ding with a fire place in Florida, anyway?I plan to move the 35" Toshiba if I ever get the front projector. I should then be able to better balance the room.

The fireplace is very handy. Thanks to it and owning two condos that I could stay in I haven't had to turn on the heat in over three years, even in winter. I have since sold the condo that was empty, so I may need to fire up the furnace next year.

[Roger]

Rking:

Are you running your equipment on any kind of AC line enhancement(s)? I bought an Adcom (515 I think) a few years ago and it improved the sound quality and "cleaned" things up for me. I'm not sure if it works the same everywhere but it's a cheap upgrade to improve sound quality. It was like a really good upgrade IMO. At least where I use to live. I assume the same applies to video as well?

[lastmanstanding]

I would strongly recommend setting up a 6.1 system. I am running dipoles for the surrounds and a dedicated rear channel, and the soundstage is outstanding compared to any 5.1 system I have auditioned. And contrary to what one may think, there is plenty of software out there that works well with 6.1 even if it is not supported directly ala DTS ES or Dolby EX. Digital matrixing creates a great rear center effect by pulling balanced signals from the surrounds, unlike the older DSP setups.

[Richard King]

Time to wake up this old thread.... Well the deal is done. I ordered one of these http://harmankardon.com/product_detail.asp?cat=REC&prod=AVR%207200&sType=C today from my distributor. I eagerly await it's arrival. :D

[Richard King]

Well, UPS tried to deliver it today, but I wasn't here to receive it. I guess I get to wait another day. My distributor said that shipping weight is about 82 pounds. Anyone want to help me get it in my rack? :D

[lastmanstanding]

Roger,

I used to agree that separate components sound better than receivers, but after spending three months with a Denon 4302 in a six channel config with Paradigm Reference speakers, I have to change my opinion.

I am a Golden Ear from the old school, preferring tube monoblocks and preamps with source selection and volume only.

I bought this rig for home theater, but when I finally sat down and played a regular CD in stereo mode, man, what a shock.

A truly fine stereo doesn't get louder when you turn up the volume, rather the music becomes more present.

The 4302 actually images, shows little coloration, excellent range and timber, and my personal acid test, throws a soundstage wide of the speaker placement. I am running the system biwired, but nothing really exotic.

I have auditioned Levinson rigs that don't do as well for 10X the price. No kidding. I even have some Levinson equipment, so no sour grapes here.

Anyway, even though it is almost impossible to do at a stereo dealer, and all these silly extra channels make the job even harder, try to actually listen to the equipment in a range of configurations and several kinds of music and movies.

[winymeyer]

Please have you any idea to repair my Marantz. If I connect the power cable to the receiver, the display is for a short time <1 sec with light, the same problem occur when I disconnect the cable.
Can you help me?

[Nick]

Winymeyer, may I suggest that you register and start a new thread in this forum in which to post your request for assistance. Doing so will likely get you a much wider response.

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This ancient thread is so old it has a thick layer of dust on it. :eek: Yet another classic example of the need to close archived threads. :confused: