New HD Channels: RG6 Really ?

[thekochs]

OK,

I've got 5LNB with fours runs going to my (2) H20s and (1) HR20 on central rack. I'm guessing maybe 75ft+ runs. I have the BBCs connected and checked channel 499 which says "Searching For Satellite" (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=96592) so I know I'm good to GO when D* lights up the new channels. However, my questions is the RG6 cables. I have no idea the quality of the coax cables running from the antenna to my receivers (done by a non-D* installer along while back). I currently get very good signal strength on all receivers. So, assuming the above do I need to replace these cables or since all works fine I should be OK when new channels come online ?

By the way, what channel #s will these new ones be ? When is real date ?

[aim2pls]

given that you have picture from most sats .... the RG-6 is ok

you didn't mention signal levels ... if they are not in the high 90's ... you probably need you dish aligned .... lack of information only makes this a guess .. but your RG-6 cables are ok

[thekochs]

given that you have picture from most sats .... the RG-6 is ok

you didn't mention signal levels ... if they are not in the high 90's ... you probably need you dish aligned .... lack of information only makes this a guess .. but your RG-6 cables are ok

Mid-High 90s.....and I just checked in the attic and that cables appear to be RG6/U...guess OK. I thought these were run so long ago they may not have even been RG6.

[glennb]

When is real date ?

I don't know for sure. Directv says - More HD added in September.
Someone mentioned here that a DIRECTV phone Rep. said - More HD September 8th.

I'm checking my HR20 every day now.

[Thaedron]

RG6 has been the standard for D* installations for many years. If it works today with good signal strength, no reason to think it won't work for the new HD channels. Unless of course you have LOS (line of sight) issues with the new sat(s).

You'll probably be able to find the new channels live sooner by checking the DBSTalk home page. Which gives me an idea...

[Tom Robertson]

Current best guess is that that channels that are true simulcast channels of the SD channels will have the same number and we'll see both in the guide, side-by-side.

As to when, by end of the month, probably by 16th of the month. Less than two weeks. :) Woohoo!

Cheers,
Tom

[Fish Man]

The Ka B-Band is actually stacked into the frequency scheme at a lower frequency than anything else. It is, in fact the Ka B-Band that would overlap OTA UHF frequencies and, as a result, diplexing is no longer possible.

The BBC then shifts this block of frequencies that's lower than any other to a frequency block higher than all the rest.

So, since the frequencies are actually lower than the others prior to hitting the BBC, any decent RG6 should carry them with no problem.

Ka A-Band (where your HD locals are) is actually the highest frequency block in the stacking scheme.

If you tried the trick of putting the BBC right after the multiswitch (as opposed to right behind the receiver, as D* recommends) you might have a problem. However, installing the BBC right behind the receiver you should be totally fine with RG6. I assume they designed their stacking scheme the way they did to make sure RG6 would work.

[thekochs]

The Ka B-Band is actually stacked into the frequency scheme at a lower frequency than anything else. It is, in fact the Ka B-Band that would overlap OTA UHF frequencies and, as a result, diplexing is no longer possible. The BBC then shifts this block of frequencies that's lower than any other to a frequency block higher than all the rest.

So, out of curiosity....if you did not have OTA hooked up and disable in the Hx20s and no BBCs...would the Ka B-Band come thru ? Not that I'm going to change anything but this would be an interesting additional reason some of the new HR21/Pro do not have OTA ?...just a thought. I'm wondering if D* is trying to get OTA out of the way for not just the cost of the ATSC tuner but for the new HD channels.

[aim2pls]

So, out of curiosity....if you did not have OTA hooked up and disable in the Hx20s and no BBCs...would the Ka B-Band come thru ? Not that I'm going to change anything but this would be an interesting additional reason some of the new HR21/Pro do not have OTA ?...just a thought. I'm wondering if D* is trying to get OTA out of the way for not just the cost of the ATSC tuner but for the new HD channels.


probably reasoning for using the low freqs and BBC's is due to line losses at the higher freqs

[Fish Man]

So, out of curiosity....if you did not have OTA hooked up and disable in the Hx20s and no BBCs...would the Ka B-Band come thru ?

No.

They're sent down the wire from the dish (and/or multiswitch) at a low frequency, but the H(R)-20 expects them at a high frequency.

That's what the BBC is for. It shifts them from the low frequency they're sent from the dish at to the high frequency the receiver expects them to be at.

[crazy4dss]

No.

They're sent down the wire from the dish (and/or multiswitch) at a low frequency, but the H(R)-20 expects them at a high frequency.

That's what the BBC is for. It shifts them from the low frequency they're sent from the dish at to the high frequency the receiver expects them to be at.

You are correct. The new hd channels will be available Sept. 27, 2007. Rg6 are able to handle the frequency range DTV needs from 250-2150 MGHZ. the signal strenth comes into play but most importantly hopefully You all had a good tech install your dish because the dish has to almost dead center between the 101 and 119 sat to get the 99 and 103 sats. The ka signal has a higher curverture of signal loss range thant the standard sat signals. meaning u move the dish slightly your signal loss of the ka will be greater than the normal sat. Hope these info helps. Oh by the way i am a DTV technician. send me an email if you need any help.

crazy4dss@yahoo.com

[thekochs]

You are correct. The new hd channels will be available Sept. 27, 2007.

Cool.....is there listing of what the actual new channel #s will be ? I'd like to have this obviously to check I see/receive.

[thekochs]

your dish because the dish has to almost dead center between the 101 and 119 sat to get the 99 and 103 sats. The ka signal has a higher curverture of signal loss range thant the standard sat signals. meaning u move the dish slightly your signal loss of the ka will be greater than the normal sat. [/email]

How can you determine other than signal strength how accurate your dish is pointed between 101 and 119 ? Is there something in Hx20 setup that can show the azimuth of the antenna...and how this correlates to where it should be ?

[bakers12]

How can you determine other than signal strength how accurate your dish is pointed between 101 and 119 ? Is there something in Hx20 setup that can show the azimuth of the antenna...and how this correlates to where it should be ?

There is an option - somewhere - that shows you where the dish should be pointing, but there isn't anything to tell you if you're really pointing there.

[Tom Robertson]

How can you determine other than signal strength how accurate your dish is pointed between 101 and 119 ? Is there something in Hx20 setup that can show the azimuth of the antenna...and how this correlates to where it should be ?

Signal strength is the best indicator of where you are pointing. That is until they provide you with laser guiding. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[crazy4dss]

There is an option - somewhere - that shows you where the dish should be pointing, but there isn't anything to tell you if you're really pointing there.


Without having the proper tools it is hard to determine that. you could have good signal strenth on the 101 and 119 sats but that doesnt mean your dish is pointed as acurrate as possible . the only way you will know is when the new sat is fired up and the hd channels the on the ka band are not in your guide or the signal strenth on the meter is low ont that sat and u see see that you are in the mid or low 90's on the 101 an 119 but lower in the 99a-b and 103a-b. Oh the tool is about $425.00.

[Mike Bertelson]

How far can cable run?

If not RG6, the what/why?

Coax has always just been there(in the house). Is there a point where I/anyone should consider and upgrade?

Can you tell I don't know anything about coax?

Mike

[vertigo235]

RG-59 would probably even be fine. What would you do instead of RG6?

[PoitNarf]

RG-59 would probably even be fine.

Absolutely not.

[ShiningBengal]

Absolutely not.

RG-59 works perfectly well in many installations, although not all.

The problem with RG-59 is not signal strength. It is excess resistance to current flowing from the receiver to the multiswitch. This is evidenced by the inablility to reliably change channels. RG-59 was not designed for this requirement unique to DBS, although it will often work acceptably well. You won't get a better picture with RG-6 than you will with RG-59.

I have used RG-59 in a number of situations where cabling in a dwelling was run concealed and it was impractical to replace it with RG-6. Of course, you should use RG-6 if that is an option. But if RG-59 allows you to change channels reliably, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Never had a problem of any kind with RG-59. I was able to run cable during construction of my new house, so of course I ran RG-6. Not quad shield (over sold IMHO), just garden variety RG-6.

[PoitNarf]

I'd be very weary to use RG-59 once D10 starts broadcasting, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that a SWM will not work with anything less than RG-6.

[carl6]

I'd be very weary to use RG-59 once D10 starts broadcasting, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that a SWM will not work with anything less than RG-6.

Actually, I think part of the intent of the SWM design was to be able to use any existing in-house wiring (including RG59) from the FTM or PI output port to the receivers. I agree it should not be used between the dish and the SWM, and I agree it should be avoided elsewhere if possible. But I believe it will work.

Carl

[ShiningBengal]

I'd be very weary to use RG-59 once D10 starts broadcasting, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that a SWM will not work with anything less than RG-6.

You may be right. But I wouldn't go pulling out RG-59 that is working now based on the possibility that it may be a problem with SWM.

An existing installation won't need SWM in most cases, because you will already have dual cable runs to each DVR.

[PoitNarf]

But I wouldn't go pulling out RG-59 that is working now based on the possibility that it may be a problem with SWM.

Agreed! :D

[crazy4dss]

Rg59 is not swept tested for the high frequencies that DTV will be using for the kaku dish. u can use rg59 fo only a shot run say about 10 to 15 feet before you realy start getting signal loss but if i had it in my house i would change it before it becomes a headach for my hd system.

[djr]

RG59 may be "good enough" for many installations now but it is not the minimum that D* itself requires. Their own installation videos say you "MUST" use RG6 Solid Copper Center wire in ALL H20 and HR20 installations and specifically warn against using RG59. They are emphatic about all components being within specification.

When the first installer (D* contractor) came to do my installation, he wanted to use the existing RG59, which was installed when the house was built 15 years ago and was probably pretty cheap RG59. When I insisted, he said he didn't have all the parts he needed and left.

I called D* to confirm that RG6 must be used and was told yes. When I related that the installer said RG59 would be good enough, he said if the installer refused to run RG6 to have them call D*.

The next one was much friendlier and, although he started with saying to use the existing wire, when I told him D* said it was supposed to be RG6, that is what he used. We did compromise on using the existing RG59 to the two D11 receivers, mainly to avoid running wire outside half the house. He did not fish any wires and I didn't ask him to.

I understand that installers are not well compensated in either time or money but the job should be done to the manufacturers specifications. I firmly believe many of these RG59 HD installations cause problems and will cause more as the HD/MPEG4/SWM use increases. I suspect some of the obscure problems people report here are caused by not using specification components.

On the other hand, some of those installations will never have a problem.

Regardless, specifications are there for a reason and large companies like D* do not waste money on excessive capacity - they have studied the minimum requirements to the nth degree.

[vertigo235]

Nobody is denying that RG6 is better and prefered. The point is that RG59 might be fine.

[JonW]

Funny. Installers are pretty predictable. When my house was first installed, the installer gave me the choice of using the RG59 house wiring *or* he'd run a wire along the outside of the roof and drill a hole to get it inside. Fortunately my basement was unfinished so he agreed to run fresh RG6 across the basement to the family room, but since he was unwilling to fish wire, the upstairs bedroom was connected with RG-59.

There was a little more signal loss through the RG-59, but it worked well enough. Hopefully the SWM will solve this mess once and for all.

When I had my two HR20's installed I had them both installed in the family room with RG-6. And then since the HR20 supports simultaneous output, I connected the S-Video outputs to a video switch and then to a RF Modulator and use that to feed the other TVs in the house.

What that solves is now we can watch any program from any tuner anywhere in the house while enjoying full quality on our HDTV.

[ShiningBengal]

RG59 may be "good enough" for many installations now but it is not the minimum that D* itself requires. Their own installation videos say you "MUST" use RG6 Solid Copper Center wire in ALL H20 and HR20 installations and specifically warn against using RG59. They are emphatic about all components being within specification.

When the first installer (D* contractor) came to do my installation, he wanted to use the existing RG59, which was installed when the house was built 15 years ago and was probably pretty cheap RG59. When I insisted, he said he didn't have all the parts he needed and left.

I called D* to confirm that RG6 must be used and was told yes. When I related that the installer said RG59 would be good enough, he said if the installer refused to run RG6 to have them call D*.

The next one was much friendlier and, although he started with saying to use the existing wire, when I told him D* said it was supposed to be RG6, that is what he used. We did compromise on using the existing RG59 to the two D11 receivers, mainly to avoid running wire outside half the house. He did not fish any wires and I didn't ask him to.

I understand that installers are not well compensated in either time or money but the job should be done to the manufacturers specifications. I firmly believe many of these RG59 HD installations cause problems and will cause more as the HD/MPEG4/SWM use increases. I suspect some of the obscure problems people report here are caused by not using specification components.

On the other hand, some of those installations will never have a problem.

Regardless, specifications are there for a reason and large companies like D* do not waste money on excessive capacity - they have studied the minimum requirements to the nth degree.

RG-59 has NEVER been approved for DBS installations, by DirecTV or Dish for that matter.

The point is that sometimes it is not practical to replace existing RG-59 with RG-6. Solid copper is marginally better than copper-clad core center. No reason not to use RG-6 in most cases.

But the fact remains, RG-59 normally will cause no problems. Your guess that RG-59 may be responsible for "obscure" problems is just that: a guess. My own experience is that cabling problems are normally easily determined and are primarily due to bad connections or excessively long runs. The symptoms are neither subtle nor obscure to an experienced installer.

I don't recommend using RG-59 in most installations. What's the benefit? But as I stated before, RG-59 works fine in most cases and I wouldn't go spending hundreds of dollars re-running new RG-6 without first determining that the RG-59 is causing a problem. The fact is, RG-59 works in most cases.

[aim2pls]

RG-59 has NEVER been approved for DBS installations, by DirecTV or Dish for that matter.

The point is that sometimes it is not practical to replace existing RG-59 with RG-6. Solid copper is marginally better than copper-clad core center. No reason not to use RG-6 in most cases.

But the fact remains, RG-59 normally will cause no problems. Your guess that RG-59 may be responsible for "obscure" problems is just that: a guess. My own experience is that cabling problems are normally easily determined and are primarily due to bad connections or excessively long runs. The symptoms are neither subtle nor obscure to an experienced installer.

I don't recommend using RG-59 in most installations. What's the benefit? But as I stated before, RG-59 works fine in most cases and I wouldn't go spending hundreds of dollars re-running new RG-6 without first determining that the RG-59 is causing a problem. The fact is, RG-59 works in most cases.


only real difference between RG-59 and RG-6 is line loss per HD feet

[ShiningBengal]

There is another difference: The shielding used on RG-59 is not designed to control the multiswitch/LNB in DBS installations. In RG-6, the outer shield is used by the satellite receiver to control the switching that DBS systems need to change channels. RG-59 has a significantly higher resistance to current flow, hence long cable runs may be adversely affected because the voltage drop puts it outside the voltage range the LNB's need to change polarity, and may be insufficient to power a multiswitch.

The symptom? Channel changes become erratic or impossible. Hundreds of channels are of little use if you can only tune to one of them (and even that could be a shopping channel!)

[Thaedron]

This all comes down to "what is certified to work" vs. "what may work in some situations but not all".

Vendor minimum requirements are often more than is absolutely necessary for just this reason to stay away from the margins where performance may start to degrade.

When civil engineers build roads, they design them to be safe for speeds greater than the posted limit. Otherwise everyone doing 65 in a 55 mph zone would be sent flying off into the ditch on corners, etc... Likewise electronics manufacturers (that follow good design principles) test the limits and then set minimum requirements to slightly within the margin of error to account for the extremely wide range of variability that is the "real world".

[harsh]

only real difference between RG-59 and RG-6 is line loss per HD feetYou say that like it is no big deal. If it means the difference between properly powering your LNB assembly and BBCs or not, it is all the difference in the world.

[harsh]

So, out of curiosity....if you did not have OTA hooked up and disable in the Hx20s and no BBCs...would the Ka B-Band come thru ?I think it very likely that if you have a 5LNB dish, the B-band will be present -- trashing part of the UHF spectrum -- regardless of the connected receiver. I doubt that the LNB assembly has the guts/brains to not pass it.

It could well be that a BBC would be required for all receivers if you were trying to diplex in OTA digital using the distant BBC method.

[JonW]

You say that like it is no big deal. If it means the difference between properly powering your LNB assembly and BBCs or not, it is all the difference in the world.

The same is true of RG-6 if you try to run it too long. It all depends on the cable length. So we're still back to square one. Use RG-6 if you can, but if all you have is RG-59 it *may* work acceptably.

[Meklos]

I would expect SWM to work with RG-6 runs from the dish to the SWM and RG-59 from the SWM to the boxes. From what I understand of the architecture, there should be much less actual 'used' frequency space on the output side of the SWM.

Think about it. Today, you have a full 'stack' of downlinks on one wire. All H or all V polarity on 101, maybe more. With SWM and one receiver on the port watching one channel (with no OTA diplexing), you should have one 'channel' worth of bandwidth being used on the wire.

At least that's the way I understand it...