CONFIRM - KWGN in Colorado Springs?

[Adam Richey]

Hey guys.  Tony's list says that KWGN (WB) is available in Colorado Springs locals, but the Dish Network website doesn't list it.  Can anybody confirm or deny that KWGN is available to them in the Colorado Springs locals pack?  Thanks.

[Darkman]

I am pretty sure it's available..
But a Colorado sub can give you a better Confirmation :)

[Frank Z]

Yes it is available, PQ is not to bad.

[Darkman]

there ya go :)

[loxsmith]

:mad: Hey,
Just checked my statemant online. KWGN is not part of the locals package. It's an additional 1.69 a month.

[Marcus S]

KWGN is $1.50 a mo more. It should become part of the C Springs package once the CBS and NBC affiliates get their head out of you know what. The other change is that National PBS is no longer available unless you already have it. Currently I sub to Denver Distant @ 5.99 (includes National PBS) + KWGN @ 1.50 = 7.49.

Another reason that this merger nonsense does not benefit rural subs as Charlie would tell you otherwise. The token kiss and make up gester was I no longer pay $1 for National PBS and Charlie said this was a good thing for rural subs. Lets see, I had been paying $7.49 because distant nets use to be $4.99, then it went up to $5.99, so I was paying $8.49, then PBS became part of the distant pack early this year and now I am back where I started.

[dishrich]

Why do guys think KWGN is EVER going to be part of the Colorado Springs locals package??? KWGN is part of the DENVER DMA, NOT the CS DMA. DBS (by law) CANNOT put stations outside of a DMA in a locals package, period! (& it does NOT matter if they are trying to add KWGN because CS doesn't have a local WB affill - it STILL does not matter) Tell me of any other locals package on EITHER provider that does this - it just ain't gonna happen.

[HTguy]

dishrich is correct.

KWGN is one of the SSs which is why it can be purchised "a la carte" for $1.50. But anyone getting locals or distants can get all 5 SSs for $3 so I would think it would make sense for most people to opt for the whole package.

[Bob N.]

Why isn't Dish carrying the Colorado Springs UPN station???

[dishrich]

Originally posted by Bob N.
Why isn't Dish carrying the Colorado Springs UPN station???

It's a low-power station. And since LP stations do NOT fall under must-carry rules for DBS, E* has typically NOT carried them. (Although I understand that D* has carried a few, particularly ones that are WB or UPN affiliated)

[Marcus S]

If they are a SuperStation they are not a network and do not fall under any DMA qual and why anyone anywhere can get it. If you have not noticed WB2 is on Adelphia cable. Charlie would be foolish to charge $5.99 for 4 nets + 1 PBS + WB @ $1.50. It certainly would give amunization to Adelphia marketing proving how DBS nickles and dimes their subs for local channels. UPN is another matter, they have hosed themselves out of so many markets it is not funny. Austin, TX and C Springs have the same issue with UPN, BELO.

[Geronimo]

Cable rules are diferent than satellite. Syndex is an issue for satellite----even on the supers. Generally speaking satellite has shied away from out of market broadcasting except for the distant nets.

[Marcus S]

Because it is not a disputed station WB Denver can request carry from E*/negoiate a contract for that market and be included in the C Springs nets package. What station wouldn't want to expand their viewing audience, oh, that would be UPN.

[Geronimo]

What do you mean "disputed station"/ I am not familiar with that term.

[Marcus S]

Where markets overlap for the same network, not station. In this case there is nothing to dispute, KWGN already has most of the front range market and no competition in C Springs. If WB2 decided to offer OTA broadcast that is another matter, where they would be required to use different call letters for that market even though it is repeated programming.

Cable would be required then to pick up the repeated station, I am not so sure about DBS and my only concern why possibly KWGN would not be offered in the C Springs nets package, but then DBS could always mirror the station in the EPG and give it different call letters. Is it required, is it worth it to WB2. Don't know..

[dishrich]

Originally posted by Marcus S
If they are a SuperStation they are not a network and do not fall under any DMA qual and why anyone anywhere can get it.

That is NOT correct anymore & it's due to "syndex protection" NOT network duplication. When the SHIVA rules were rewritten for DBS, part of the new rules state that ANY local stations can request "syndex protection" against ANY of the superstations on DBS. (really, only DISH, since D* has never carried superstations) What this means, for example, lets say one of your local CS stations now carries Judge Judy. (which I'm sure you have one that does) That station can require E* to black out Judge Judy on WSBK in the CS market, so that you are forced to watch it from your local station instead. Of course, it would be completely prohibative for E* to do this on a market-by-market basis, so what E* is doing now is trying NOT to call attention to the fact he's selling the superstations in the first place. (Why do you think they are NO longer mentioned in any brochures) I have also heard other folks at both boards state that they lost their qualification for any superstations, but I don't know about this personally.

I will GUARANTEE you that you will NEVER see an out-of-market station, (REGARDLESS of whether it's a superstation or not, network affiliated or not) included with ANY cities LIL package - it JUST ain't gonna happen. And KWGN IS A DENVER STATION, NOT A C.S. station - there is NOT getting around it! You'll just have to suck it up & pay the xtra $1.50... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


UPN is another matter, they have hosed themselves out of so many markets it is not funny. Austin, TX and C Springs have the same issue with UPN BELO

What do you mean by this? How is it UPN's fault they are NOT on E*, but ARE on D* in Austin? As far as "hosing themselves out of so many markets", I understand it's because many of these UPN affills are LP stations, & E* will NOT deal with them, PERIOD! (D* on the other hand doesn't seem to have as big of problem doing this) It basically just comes down to the fact that Charlie REALLY wants to carry as few locals as possible, & since he is leagally NOT required to carry LP stations, he has NO intention of doing it!

Originally posted by Geronimo
Cable rules are diferent than satellite. Syndex is an issue for satellite----even on the supers. Generally speaking satellite has shied away from out of market broadcasting except for the distant nets.

While cable rules are different, Syndex IS an issue on cable as well. That is precisely why most cable systems have dropped out-of-market stations from their lineups, so they would NOT have to deal with blacking-out syndicated material. (do NOT confuse this with "significant viewed" status, like for example cable systems between NY & Philly, that carry stations from both markets) I'm talking, for example, MY cable system in IL carrying KTLA.

[dishrich]

Now, after all of this, MY only question is:

Since, (according to DISH's web site) they are NOT carrying CBS & NBC in the CS locals package - why would anyone in their right mind even bother to pay $6 to get ONLY 3 local stations - hello??? (ABC/FOX/PBS) If you STILL need an antenna or cable to get the others, why bother?

[BrettR]

dishrich, Dish can include the KWGN (copyright) fee in consideration for the package of Colorado Spring locals. So KWGN may be a bonus (and free) when CS locals are taken, although not necessarily a local station to that DMA. As long as the CS stations dont request a blackout, KWGN is fine there.

The rules are satellite companies cannot isolate stations within a market (atleast by pricing). Example: Dish and DirecTV cannot say $5.99 for the local ABC NBC CBS FOX, and $1.50 for each independent in the market, $2.35 for each PBS in the market, $2.50 for each Spanish or Religious station in the market.

However, the satellite companies can put other channels (besides the in DMA channels) in a local channels package. DirecTV's local channel package start at $36.99/mo. It includes the in DMA locals, but DirecTV has the full Total Choice in there too.

[dishrich]

Originally posted by BrettR
dishrich, Dish can include the KWGN (copyright) fee in consideration for the package of Colorado Spring locals. So KWGN may be a bonus (and free) when CS locals are taken, although not necessarily a local station to that DMA. As long as the CS stations dont request a blackout, KWGN is fine there.

I totally understand they COULD do this - I just DON'T see E* setting a precedence & including a non-DMA OR "superstation" in ANY of their local channel packs. Considering they have NOT done this in ANY of their other markets, (at least the ones that DON'T have a WB or UPN station already in the local market) what makes you all think CS is so special? Let's at least be realistic here guys. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But, if you still think so, let us know when E* starts giving away KWGN in CS in the package... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Geronimo]

First of all the "significantly viewed" rule for cable is what I was referring to when I said the cable rules are different. That is what allows cable systems to show out of market stations. I never meant to imply that syndex is not an issue at all in the cable world. It si adn I have seen out of market programming blacked out on some cable systems.

Not sure either what is meant by "where markets overlap for the same network, not station"


I am unsure whether KWGN is being offered or not. If it is I suspect that its status as a superstation is what allows this not any special copyright fee arrangements.

BTW DISH is enforcing syndex requests on the supers when received. They do it by not offering a station if a local station objects. This relieves them of selectively blacking out individual programs in individual markets. In practice there have been very few syndex requests.

To the best of my knowledge neither provider has included out of market locals before. I am not sure I follow the reference to DTV's bundling of locals with a package. I don't think it is relevant but perhaps I am missing something. After all I am paying $8.99 for a package that has my locals and the superstations that is a bundle too but so waht?

If this is true maybe it is an inducement to buy the package when it does not iclude some locals. But again I don't know what is being offered in Colorado Springs.

[BrettR]

Originally posted by dishrich


I totally understand they COULD do this - I just DON'T see E* setting a precedence & including a non-DMA OR "superstation" in ANY of their local channel packs. Considering they have NOT done this in ANY of their other markets, (at least the ones that DON'T have a WB or UPN station already in the local market) what makes you all think CS is so special? Let's at least be realistic here guys.

But, if you still think so, let us know when E* starts giving away KWGN in CS in the package... :lol: :lol: :lol:

According to Frank Z, KWGN is available in the CS package. Maybe KWGN has significant viewership and is popular amongst people in Colorado Springs thats Dish's incentive for putting it in the CS local package.

And E* is all about setting precendences or pushing for laws that allow better network distribution on satellite. :)

Geronimo, you have the option of paying for locals or bundled rate locals with supers. On DTV you can only take a bundled rate which is locals and a base package.

dishrich wrote: "DBS (by law) CANNOT put stations outside of a DMA in a locals package, period!"

Cable stations, satellite stations (non broadcast) and superstations can be included in locals packages. The requirement DBS is to not discriminate the mustcarry stations from the retransmission stations (which are usually network affiliates) within a given market. They have to be in contiguous on an EPG and cannot be separated in tiers. Dish is splitting them on two sats, but otherwise the equipment is offered at no additional charge. For supers, there is the capability that the local broadcasters will assert their syndicated exclusivity meaning blackout shows.

In CS, I take it there is no local WB affiliate, and WB is primarily distributed through KWGN. Its possible other syndicated shows on KWGN could come under scrutiny.

There is a compulsory copyright license fee that is paid for each superstation that is viewed out of market. That means when Dish offers a subscriber out of market KWGN, Dish has to pay a copyright fee for this station for that subscriber. Originally Dish included some of the supers in part of the original AT 40.

[Frank Z]

CS does not have a WB station, maybe that is why we are able to get it from Denver as part of our local package. I am currently getting Fox, ABC, PBS, & WB (KWGN) for $4.99/mo. Hopefully the local CBS and NBC stations will get on board soon. According to the local NBC station, they have not signed on with E* because they do not feel that thet are being treated fairly with regards to the value (read:"MONEY") of their signal. They have even gone as far as to request thatteir loyal viewers contact E* an petition them to play ball fairly. Here's a link if your interested and have absoulutly nothing better to do for the next 2-3 minutes.

http://www.koaa.com/community/listens/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=931

As an aside, I did contact the local UPN station (via Email) regarding their availablity via E*, their response was that they had NO PLANS to be broadcast via E*.

Pretty shortsighted really. The stations in CS do not serve just the "Greater Metro Area," but are THE source of News and Entertainment for the southern half of the state of Colorado. There are hundreds of rural communities that would love to be able to tune into these stations if they could. Unfortunetly many of these potential subscribers are tuned into the Denver market because they can get CBS, ABC, NBC, UPN, FOX, PBS, and of course WB. I'm afraid that in some respects I still live in an area with a Cow Town mentality.

[Marcus S]

My Denver bill is $5.99 (ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX, & National PBS) + $1.50 for WB2. E* still states that WB2 is not included in the CS nets package and I have taken this issue up to ATS who claims that it will be offered when the remaining networks come on-line and miracle will occur on my bill if I sub now. Since I am grandfathered with National PBS, I am in no big hurry to switch or add CS nets.

The CS Nets where also the most clueless during the Hayman fire, while everyone was clustered at my house watching the Denver reports, evac notices, and breaking new, while CS nets where more interested in finishing "As the World Turns" with no updates during commericials and on the hour when they did, it was on the scene reports from the Denver nets. Breaking news at 5p was local drunk killed on Nevada from hit and run, followed by lost dog. Fire, what fire? UPN's only claim to fame is StarTrek, other than that, they only hope to loose as many subs as they can.

[Geronimo]

Marcus seems to say he is in the Denver DMA and the CS. ANYBODY ANYWHERE can pay $1.50 for KWGN although at that point I would pay another $1.50 for the other supers.

I suspect these people are in CS and are being chaged for a superstation. I hope you asked for it or that at least DISH asked you.

[Marcus S]

Denver Distant Nets, local Denver DMA subs get additional channels off 148. I did ask, or did you not read previous threads? I am neither switching to or adding CS nets.

[Geronimo]

I guess I am just confused Marcus. IF you are in Denver why would you be paying 41.50 for KWGN? It is part of the Denver package is it not? Obviously I am missing something. No doubt my fault.

[Marcus S]

If one only gets Denver ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX, & National PBS for $5.99, then one does not live in Denver.

[Geronimo]

There is an easy answer MArcus but let's just forget this. BTW they showed the CS locals on the chat KWGN IS in the pack.

[Marcus S]

KWGN is now officially part of the CS nets package as of Sunday night! I find it interesting 1) you did not follow the threads in this post. 2) so many people that have inquired about this issue don't even live here. Mine and many other's letters to Sorya Cartright apparently received the attention it needed. Many of us also received 3 PPV certificates in the mail today for our inconvenience and an appology letter. Many that where given KWGN when CS 1st came up, lost it last week, which caused a storm of calls to *E support. It caused enough attention for Charlie to acknowledge a not so large cities issue. Is the issue dismissed so easily? Certainly, for people that most likely live "outside DC" and had no vested interest from the begining. The issue of carry in a non local DMA should also be now buried and dead, and arguments about Shivia and Syndex should now also be put to rest for the people that worried about it the most.