PVR 721 L1.05 Software Preview

[Scott Greczkowski]

I am excited to announce that the Dish PVR 721 team has really been paying attention to all the comments made by 721 owners here at DBSTalk.COM and within the next few weeks will be releasing the long awaited L1.05 software to 721 owners!

L1.05 will give 721 owners a bunch of exciting new features and will fix a number of problems some 721 owners have experienced.

Here is what I know about L1.05 so far.

Whats New?
- Slow Motion
- Frame by Frame advance
- New Games
- New Color Scheme in Guide and Menus
- New Guide Mode (Transparent & Normals modes)
- PVR listing sorting (By Name or Date)
- Timers can be sorted by Occurrence, Theme etc...
- New On Screen Keyboard (Dish and Original)
- The Ability to shut off the Time Icon
- Receivers Temperature is listed on the Sysinfo screen
- Low Battery Support
- Ability to adjust the screen position of the menus
- New Search (New Layout)
- Aux Input (On Channel 0) You plug your DVD Player or XBOX up to the AV Jacks on the Front and switch to it by tuning to Channel 0
- Search for Title Specific Shows by highlighting the show in the guide and by pressing the # button

Whats Fixed in L1.05?
- Kick to Live Bug is gone (No more being thrown to Live Mode when watching a delayed show)
- Automatic Switch to unused Tuner (instead of going to PIP then SWAP to get to the second tuner)
- Many Timer Bugs Squashed
- Black Out Error on Adult Channels fixed
- Time left on view banner is now accurate instead of displaying 0:00
- Text on view banner is easier to read and larger (Especially the Channel number)

Dish Network has agreed to send me a complete list of new features and bug fixes within the next day or so, so I will update this list once I have a complete list of changes. (note the list I have now is subject to change)

Dish Network has also agreed to let me test L1.05 before it is released to the General public, I should get the L1.05 update on Wednesday. The Dish Network folks have agreed to let me post my findings here on DBSTalk so everyone will know what to expect with this update.

Overall I can tell that the 721 team has put a lot of time and effort into this release, yes it took them a little longer to get this version out but they wanted but they wanted to make sure everything was correct with this release. I am told I will be impressed with the updates made in this software revision and from the sounds of it I probably will be.

I can't wait to get the update and you can bet that I will report my findings here for you.

My thanks to the 721 team and the folks at Echostar for paying attention to our members here at DBSTalk, I find it exciting that they are closely watching our comments so they can make the 721 the best it can be. I also thank the 721 team and Echostar for including me in the process.

[John Corn]

Wow......looks great Scott. :)
Doesn't look like a a fix for my "acquiring satellite signal" problems, but none the less, alot of nice features thats for sure.

[jcrash]

Well, seeing as how I'm still on L103 for some reason, I don't have my hopes up.

[alanek]

Will the timers still be based on the time of the show or by the name?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Jcrash call support and ask for advanced tech support. They should be able to help you out.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Alanek, I wont know for sure until my 721 gets the beta software Wednesday, but I would assume that it is still time based.

[sampatterson]

Sounds great. Thanks for the report and always being on the cutting edge!

[Bill D]

Scott, this is great info, I think it's great that Dish is giving you this info to pass it along and a preview of the software is even better, especially if there are any problems. The features and fixes will be great as long as nothing new pops up that will be a great christmas gift..
I'm curious of one thing on the tech chat it seems during slow motion the big lower 3rd banner was gone, that would be nice, often covers tickers and other important stuff..
thanks again

[SParker]

Wow nice! I hope it does squash my timer bugs!

[sneakymoose]

Sounds great! I just ordered a 721 system today at Sears ($434 after price match and before tax!). So it's actually a JVC branded 721 -- hopefully it's exactly the same as an EchoStar branded 721 so that it will download the same updates once they are released to everyone else.

I'd like to add this to the feature wish list:

- Allow uplink communications over ethernet (through USB port and a USB->Ethernet adapter).

I would like to eventually replace my local telephone service with a cell phone. The only thing that stops me right now (besides cell phone service prices) is the receiver's need for a telephone line.

I think that once Dish starts doing more impressive things with the "interactive" capabilities on their receivers, they will start requiring feedback from the receiver to their servers more and more frequently, anyway. Eventually they could even have services that benefit from high speed connections, like multi-player games. Given that the 721 is running Linux and X/Windows, it seems like not-such-a-huge-challenge to add on some very impressive games.

[SParker]

Wow that turning the clock (timer) icon off is another huge plus.

[jabbanat]

Thanks for the info. Scott! Was anything mentioned about changing the default on "3 minute after program ends" on timed recordings (I would prefer 0). Also, if "start recording 1 minute early could be defaulted to "no"

[Scott Greczkowski]

Nope no mention of that jabbanat. Don't forget that the additions and fixes is not a full list, we can still hold out hope for that feature. :D

[rowdymon]

Sneakynoose, where did you pricematch to to get that $434 price? Are you a new customer?

[DishDude1]

I love the temperature being added to the sys info screen! Now that is cool!!

[sneakymoose]

I've been a subscriber for about 2 years... But Sears doesn't care whether you are a new subscriber or not -- they will charge $600 for a 721 "system" (includes dish, etc.) either way. However, they do have a price match policy where they will match the price of a retail store competitor in your town and then reduce the price by 10% of the difference. On-Site Satellite quoted me (and the Sears employee) a price of $450 for a 721 system (for new subscribers, but like I said, Sears does not differentiate).

So the Sears price is $450 - $15 (10% of difference). Also, Sears has a mail in rebate going for all Dish Network "systems" (not standalone receivers), to where you get a $50 Sears gift card 8-10 weeks after mailing in the rebate coupon, copy of receipt, and UPC from box.

So in the long run:

721PVR System: $600
Price Match: -$150
Price Guarantee: -$15
-------------------
Subtotal: $434
Tax: $33.85 (Mesa, AZ @ 7.8%)
Total: $467.85
MIR: $46.38 ($50 Sears Gift Card minus taxes assumed for future purchases)

Effective Total: $421.47

When I originally spoke to someone yesterday at a different Mesa store, I saw a sign above the Dish receivers that offered interest free financing until January 2004... But when I made the purchase after work today, the sales clerk pointed out the fine print that the interest free offer is for big screen TVs (and a few other items) only. So I couldn't take advantage of that. If I signed up for a Sears card, it would be another $10 off, but I didn't think that was worth the hassle of having to close out that card and request that they don't share my info, etc, etc.

BTW, neither location had the 721 on display. They had all the other current models on display, though (301, 501 or 508, 6000). The first store's employees (Superstition Springs Mall) didn't know much of anything about Dish Network. The employee who rang me up at the second store (Fiesta Mall) at least knew a little bit about the 721 and was eager to receive them into his store. They gave me an expected arrival date of 12/9.

[lonnman]

I'll believe it when I see it. My vote will be the end of January, beginning of February. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my prediction for L1.05.

I also hope they put more emphasis on fixing bugs than new features though, with the exception of sorting timers and pvr listings. I would also like to see better stability than the current weekly reboots. I should be able to get a month or two if not more without doing a hard reset. I can think of about 6 more minor bugs just off the top of my head. Hopefully they will go away, some I am thinking of are in the search screen and maybe others are corrected or replaced in the new features as well. Those that are listed are the big ones for me though and should tie me through till L1.06.


Jeff Lonn

[thomasmaly]

Scott, do you know if the timer conflict bug will be fixed?
Thats where it says you have a conflict but none really exists.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Thomas it is my understanding that most if not all the timer bugs are fixed. I will let you know for sure when I get my update.

It is great to see so many folks are interested in this upgrade and product.

[Greg Haynes]

This is very exciting news Scott! Thanks for sharing it with us! Hope you enjoy the new update soon :)

My only suggestion to Dish would be if they could give us folders in the PVR section to allow us to sort our shows. Or give us the option to retitle the show.

I guess after this the next major new addition would be OpenTV and Internet support.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Greg, I agree 100% with your folder idea!

It would put the "Personal" back in the P of PVR.

I would love to sit down press the PVR Button, click on my name and see my folders which holds only my shows.

When you have a PVR that can record 90 hours of video, the PVR list can get cluttered quickly, while the new PVR sort feature will make things easier to find, I still think that adding folders will make the experiance more personal and thus more pleasent.

[Bill D]

Originally posted by Greg Haynes
This is very exciting news Scott! Thanks for sharing it with us! Hope you enjoy the new update soon :)

My only suggestion to Dish would be if they could give us folders in the PVR section to allow us to sort our shows. Or give us the option to retitle the show.

I guess after this the next major new addition would be OpenTV and Internet support.

Greg great point on the re-naming, often I think if a recording starts early it takes the pgm name from the program before, very annoying, it be nice if we could rename, the new sort by shows will be nice, but folders should be a no brainer...
My stuff
My wife's stuff
Kid's shows,
and then sub folders for each show.

[DarrellP]

Scott, in regards to the 501/508, will any of these features be included for it?

- New Color Scheme in Guide and Menus
- New Guide Mode (Transparent & Normals modes)
- Timers can be sorted by Occurrence, Theme etc...
- The Ability to shut off the Time Icon
- Receivers Temperature is listed on the Sysinfo screen
- Ability to adjust the screen position of the menus
- New Search (New Layout)

Thanks.

[dbronstein]

Why are they wasting their time with games? This is a PVR not a game machine. The biggest issue IMO is still making the recordings show-based instead of time-based. Then after that, the "personal" features would be great, or at least grouping and displaying the shows better.

The way ReplayTV does it is with a 2-D grid listing the show names down the side and then the episodes you have across, so it's really easy to see what you have. Providing that along with the option to group shows within folders would be an awesome interface.

Dennis

[Mark Holtz]

Now you're making us 50x owners envious. :lol: Can't wait for our upgrade.

[Scott Greczkowski]

DarrellP, I am not sure about anything in regards to 50x upgrades. This release is for the 721's only.

[DarrellP]

Come on, Scott, with your contacts couldn't you probe just a little bit for us? Please, please, please?

[SteveinDanville]

Thank God for Scott! This is a tremendous leap by Echostar to open up the loop to somebody like you. I'll keep my fingers crossed that you are a happy camper when I get back from vacation on the 6th.

[Filip1]

Great job Scott! You have made this the only stop for 721 users.
105 sounds great. I do wish they would dump the warning screen that comes up when the second tuner is going to fire. This just causes a loss of 45 seconds of the recording! Scott I actually find myself rooting for Hartford locals just so you will stay with dish.
Keep up the good work Scott and thanks.

[DmitriA]

Originally posted by Filip1
I do wish they would dump the warning screen that comes up when the second tuner is going to fire

What warning screen? Are you talking about the one where both tuners are already in-use and doesn't know which one to use for the timer?

[Filip1]

Yes DimitriA that is the screen. Neither the of the 50xs have this, the timer just fires.
We have the flashing clock for a warning. Afterall I set the timer so I want it to be used. I can't be there to tell the 721 what to do, that defeats the purpose of timer recording.
If I want to stop the timer -then I can cancel it when the clock is flashing.

[Chaos]

The real question for Scott's Dish contacts is how I can get in on the "beta"? My 721 is in the living room, but I make sure that my 501 is recording everything, so I'm more than happy to beta test for them.

[bennej]

Has there been any talk on changing the description for manual timers?
Also- how about when setting up personalized menus have the unsubscribed channels colored.

[jerryyyyy]

Nice work Scott, I can't wait to see what they get for temperatures in this beast. Can they tweak the settings for the fan?

[treiher]

:D :D :D

Great news! Glad to see they are engaging you (Scott) in this process as well. I've always thought, and posted here, that if they keep us more informed about what they are working on and when it will be released, it will make everyone much happier. After reviewing this thread, I think it's obvious that this is true!

Great work Scott!

[marshalk]

Thanks Scott, now if they will just start putting the extended program guide data on 119. Either way, I am stoked that 105 is closer than it has been. I will settle for a solid release in January or early Feb.

[EvanS]

rock on Scott! great work and keep it up!!
I certainly appreciate all you do

[Scott Greczkowski]

Ok Just got more information about the update (I will also update the Listing on the first message of this thread.)

A few NEW features not mentioned last night.

- Aux Input (On Channel 0) You plug your DVD Player or XBOX up to the AV Jacks on the Front and switch to it by tuning to Channel 0
- Search for Title Specific Shows by highlighting the show in the guide and by pressing the # button

Fixes
- Text on view banner is easier to read and larger (Especially the Channel number)

[Bill D]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
Ok Just got more information about the update (I will also update the Listing on the first message of this thread.)

A few new features not mentioned last night.

- Aux Input (On Channel 0) You plug your DVD Player or XBOX up to the AV Jacks on the Front and switch to it by tuning to Channel 0
- Search for Title Specific Shows by highlighting the show in the guide and by pressing the # button

Fixes
- Text on view banner is easier to read and larger (Especially the Channel number)

I'm sure we can't record off the front inputs could we?? I would think it might be possible because I thought those were initially for recording things for email stuff..

[Chaos]

Are they finally adding support for the 129 satellite that's used for Philadelphia locals?

[motjes2]

Scott,

this is great news. I can't wait to read your review. As everyone has mentioned, it is excellent that Dish have included you as a beta tester. I hope that this relation will extend beyond this and in the future they can also beta test the 921 with you. This receiver has a lot of potentials and Dish should be able to make so that it is at an equal or better level than the competition.

Looking forward to hear about your review...

[Scott Greczkowski]

Well I can tell you guys that the 721 guys are so busy they forgot that tommorow is Thanksgiving. :)

I understand that they have delivered the beta to the uplink but because of the Holiday the people who put the software in the stream are off for the Holiday.

From the looks of it will be at least Monday before I get the beta. THe 721 guys appoligized for this error up and down they thought everyone was working today.

Oh well guess I can enjoy my turkey tommorow instead of trying to break my 721 by testing all the new features. :D

[DmitriA]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
- Aux Input (On Channel 0) You plug your DVD Player or XBOX up to the AV Jacks on the Front and switch to it by tuning to Channel 0

Hmm. doesn't seem to me like such a crucial feature to me. I can think of a million things that would be much higher on my wish list than that...

[Scott Greczkowski]

Not a crucial feature but a nice one none the less, I know a bunch of people who only have 1 AV input on their TV's now they can hook up their DVD player and their 721 to the same TV.

For those folks they will enjoy it. :)

[greylar]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
- Aux Input (On Channel 0) You plug your DVD Player or XBOX up to the AV Jacks on the Front and switch to it by tuning to Channel 0

I have to say that this feature will rock!!! I have two TV's that run off of the same 721. I use two remotes, UHF and IR. At any rate I was trying to think of a way to pipe a movie from my dvd player to the tv in the other room and now I have it.

I do hope that this will work for the rear jacks as well but just the fact that I will be able to do it at all is awsome.

Greylar

[treiher]

Well, I guess that means we get to keep asking you questions for a few more days for which you may not have the answers to yet! :)

Regarding the changes to the programming guide. You mentioned some changes to the format. I wonder if that might include having the option to view fewer lines at a time, so that they would be easier to read from a distance. Just curious.

[Pianoguy]

"A few NEW features not mentioned last night.

- Search for Title Specific Shows by highlighting the show in the guide and by pressing the # button"

Tried this out last night with 1.04. Very cool feature! Will 1.05 be adding to it?

Thanks for a terrific website & Happy Thanksgiving,
Mark

[DmitriA]

Originally posted by greylar
Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
[B]I do hope that this will work for the rear jacks as well but just the fact that I will be able to do it at all is awsome.

Aren't the rear jacks only output, not input? I don't see how it could work...

[Scott Greczkowski]

Correct the rear jacks are output only.

Another use for this feature is easily Hooking up your camcorder so you can show your family your holiday movies. :)

BTW Happy Thanksgiving all!

[greylar]

Doh...thanks for the clarification. I just made the assumption that there were inputs on the back.

Greylar

[krlauver]

My first posting, so please forgive any mistakes... I have been reading as a guest for a while. In fact reading about the 721 on this board convinced me to buy one in early October. I do have two six foot C-band dishes that I use only occasionally now.

Anyway on to the reason for my post. Scott, do you know if the new release will correct a problem I have with the 721 changing my favorites from "All Sub" to "All Chan"? I seem to have to correct that setting at least every other day.

krlauver

[rmoore3d]

krlauver

Are you aware that while viewing the guide pushing the guide button again will switch guides? Since the 721 guide is slow to come up I suspect that you may be inadvertently be pushing the guide button twice and switching to the other guide. This is also useful when you set up favorite lists. You can switch between your favorites and all sub by pushing guide again.

[jerryyyyy]

You should make a new post for the above, but I bet you just hit the button an extra time.

You might consider making a personal favorites list under the menu options.

[TomCat]

Very cool. This thread has the potential to be the single-most-useful thread I've read in years.

It looks like this might also be the most ambitious upgrade any PVR has ever seen. If everything is realized to the level they are shooting for the 721 will no longer be just another contender, but among the best PVR's ever offered anywhere.

We can nourish this state of affairs by adding positive feedback and limiting the temptation to complain about what might be missing. If we put ourselves on our best behavior and help make this a universally positive experience we can probably expect this wonderful trend to continue. Kudos to all involved.

[Bogey62]

As long as others are throwing their two-cents in, here is what I sent to Dish Network today (some of which seems to be addressed in Scott's list of new features/fixes in the upcoming update. BTW, what's up with the "more games" added in the next release? Who cares? I have a computer for games -- fix the bugs and add real features first, guys.):


To whom it may concern:

I have owned a PVR721 unit for about 4 months now and I have compiled a list of problems and suggestions that I feel would improve the overall product. Please forward this list to someone who has the power to actually implement these ideas.

Thank you.



* Doing a Search for programs via keywords should only show results from channels I subscribe to, or only for channels contained within my current Guide choice (i.e. All Channels, My Channels, Bill, etc.) It is very frustrating to do a Search and get back 100 results, 75 of which are on channels I don't subscribe to. I realize this is a great marketing tool for Dish Network, but it's very frustrating for me as an end-user. If you won't change this aspect of the Search, at least show the channel's name in the results instead of, or in addition to, the channel's number. Currently, I have to set a timer to see that I do not currently subscribe to that particular channel.

* There should be an option to delete a single entry in the Search History, instead of having to wipe out the entire list just because I mistyped an entry or no longer want an entry to remain displayed in the History list.

* There should be a confirmation prompt before erasing the entire Search History list.

* The Guide should be able to display listings in alphabetical order (ascending or descending order).

* When a program is paused, there should be a feature that allows me to reposition the Time Remaining bar on the screen via the Position button.

* The Swap button should be able to switch between the two tuners on the 721 without having to first use the PIP button.

* There should be a slo-mo/frame advance feature in both the forward and reverse directions when the picture is paused.

* Channel surfing is very sluggish and frustrating. There should be an option to delay the hard drive caching when flipping channels for 5 seconds or so. This delay would enable quick channel flipping when I just want to see what's on at-a-glance. After the 5 second delay, let the hard drive begin recording the current channel.

* The picture quality needs to be improved, especially on the pay movie channels (i.e. HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, et al.) The dithering and pixelization in shadowed areas of shows/movies on HBO is unacceptable. I switched from a C-band satellite system to the Dish Network and the picture quality is vastly superior on my C-band system (analog).

* Sometimes, while playing back a PVR recording, the program playback will stutter (noticeable hard drive grinding can be heard). I think this is most likely due to hard drive fragmentation. I should have an option to do periodic hard drive defragmentation, either on a predetermined schedule or manually.

* Pressing the View button during playback of a recorded program should show the Time Remaining, instead of 0:00. Presently, I have to pause the program to see the time remaining.

* If more than 2 timers conflict, only 2 of them are shown. A complete list of all conflicting timers should be displayed so that I can select which timer I want to delete.

* The Hard Drive diagnostic option is ghosted. Why?

* Select Start Over while a program is being recorded and when the timer finishes the PVR will automatically switch back to live mode! If I want to continue to watch the recorded program from where I left off before the live mode kicked in, I have to start the program all over again and fast forward all the way up to the point I left off at -- this point could easily be the last 10 minutes of a 2 hour movie!

* Sometimes, a timer will only record for a very short period of time, i.e., 4 minutes, 1 minute, 10 seconds, 1 second. Once, I had an entire week's worth of recordings ruined because of this.

[zumahans]

I don't really think the front jacks and Channel 00 are for games. I think they are to upload programming from other sources into the PVR.

For example, a 4DTV? Wouldn't that be great!

I wish I had this capability with the 501 that I bought!

[knealy]

Does L105 fix the problems with the 721 getting progressively slower until it take 2 or 3 button pushes on the remote to get it to respond?

How about when playing back it slows to single framing with loss of sound for about 5 seconds, then resumes normally?

The slowdown seems to go away after a reset, but the interrupted playback is still there .

Does L105 fix any of these? They're really annoying.

[krlauver]

Originally posted by rmoore3d
krlauver

Are you aware that while viewing the guide pushing the guide button again will switch guides? Since the 721 guide is slow to come up I suspect that you may be inadvertently be pushing the guide button twice and switching to the other guide. This is also useful when you set up favorite lists. You can switch between your favorites and all sub by pushing guide again.

To rmoore3d and jerryyyyy,

Well that's one bug fixed in the operator software (i.e. me). I had no idea that hitting the guide button multiple times changes the channels listed based on your favorites selection. In fact after reading your post it took me about 30 seconds to figure out what was changing. I hadn't thought of that because it's just me using the guide and I have not set up any favorites. If that's in the manual it must have passed right over my head.

Thanks,
krlauver

[John Corn]

By the way krlauver, Welcome to DBSTalk. :)

[jazzis]

:hi: Hey scott heres an idea...  For some of us who dont have our 721's yet it sure would be nice to have some more screen shots of newer features.  Ive seen most of the ones that were done when the unit first came out but it didnt show all the screens and feartures. :confused: Since your gonna be the first of us to have L 105 is it possible to do another video demo of the 721 and its newest features.    :D And some hi res closeups of the remote and the unit itself would be greatly appreciated...

[kyoo]

for what it's worth, I thought I'd mention this incase people were getting their hopes up..

The front panel inputs can only be used to pass video through the 721.. the 721 will not record that data to the harddrive... There isn't a hardware video compression chip on the 721.

[DmitriA]

Originally posted by knealy
Does L105 fix the problems with the 721 getting progressively slower until it take 2 or 3 button pushes on the remote to get it to respond?

Are you sure it's not your remote battery going dead? I haven't noticed this effect that you are describing...

[TerryC]

Originally posted by jazzis
:hi: it sure would be nice to have some more screen shots of newer features.

Now that would be a great idea. How 'bout it Scott?

[Scott Greczkowski]

I have already submitted a request to the Folks at Echostar to do video capture and screen captures of the new software.

Because of the Holiday I have not heard anything back yet.

I am looking forward to getting L1.05 on my unit to review for all.

[Jacob S]

* Channel surfing is very sluggish and frustrating. There should be an option to delay the hard drive caching when flipping channels for 5 seconds or so. This delay would enable quick channel flipping when I just want to see what's on at-a-glance. After the 5 second delay, let the hard drive begin recording the current channel

>>> I dont think this is possible is it or feasbile? By the time you wait for the receiver to stop buffering each time, it would take this long or longer, correct? Or would this not take very long, just as short period of time as pressing stop to stop a recording.

[Patrick G]

Originally posted by Jacob S
* Channel surfing is very sluggish and frustrating. There should be an option to delay the hard drive caching when flipping channels for 5 seconds or so. This delay would enable quick channel flipping when I just want to see what's on at-a-glance. After the 5 second delay, let the hard drive begin recording the current channel.
I second this! I've been using Dish for so long that I've got a routine down for channel surfing --> CHANNEL UP, NEXT, CANCEL... CHANNEL UP, NEXT, CANCEL... and so on. And I move quickly thru the channels this way. When I attempt this on the 721, it will eventually lock up and go thru the tedious reboot process. This is what I would most like to fixed.

[jcrash]

I guess I still don't understand the continued need to channel surf. It would seem to be a relic of the olden days when your guide was not zippy and/or inconvenient. Why bother changing to a channel at all when the guide is available instantly and can even be filtered to just your favorite list of channels?

I don't believe the request to not cache the data stream is very feasible. It would be my guess that the data is always written to disk first and then read from the disk and decoded for your viewing pleasure. As such, it would (most likely) be a major undertaking to code in a completely new process of reading the stream directly. Also, how would the machine know to start caching data? If it was to begin caching data, at some point you would HAVE to wait for several seconds while your viewing was interrupted - if you did not you would be "ahead" of the data on the disk - and still viewing an uncached stream of data.

I think there is likely just one data bus, not two. But I do admit to total ignorance on the subject.

[Bogey62]

Originally posted by jcrash
I guess I still don't understand the continued need to channel surf. It would seem to be a relic of the olden days when your guide was not zippy and/or inconvenient. Why bother changing to a channel at all when the guide is available instantly and can even be filtered to just your favorite list of channels? 


Because some of us, I dare say many of us, like to just surf the channels and see what catches our eye. I, for one, don't want to ALWAYS flip through the Guide just to read only the title (or possibly a very abbreviated description) of the show and base my viewing decision on that limited info. Talk about teadious. :)

 

[scooper]

Just having an easy to access EPG changed my viewing habits - I look at the EPG, if there's something that catches my interest, I change to it - if the program is a bummer, I go back to the EPG again. Because even a 4900 changing channels is too slow for me...

[EvanS]

personally I use the "browse" feature a lot. Especially on the 721 , where it shows current and next program.
I find that surfing using browse and "info" can usually get me thru the entire AT150 line up with less that 5 seperate channel "tunes".
works for me anyway

[treiher]

I understand both sides of this. In fact, it was that delay which caused me some hesitation a few years ago resulting in me not getting Dish until later. I observed this on a friends Direct TV system and did not like it then, and still don't like it much now. However, I think it is fair to point out that this is not just a PVR buffering issue. Granted, the PVR buffer adds a few seconds to it, but even the older receivers (like our 301) also has that delay, just not as long. Long enough, never-the-less, to prevent you from channel surfing. So, you have no choice but to "surf" the guide or use the browse feature. There are advantages to that. How many times while surfing do you land on a commercial and just go on because you don't know what the program is? Anyway, I wanted to point out that this delay I believe is more a general satellite technology issue, and not just a PVR issue.

I guess an even better question might be why to satellite receivers in general seem to have this delay?

[Jacob S]

I suppose one could ask if they would rather have a program guide, browse feature, and information screens available instead of something such as cable where you dont have that yet you can channel surf a lot faster without delay.

[P Smith]

Who are they ?

According IDSA March 2002:

"Pentagram Design, Terk and EchoStar Communications designed three products that won the 2002 CEA Best of Innovations Awards.
....
and in-house EchoStar designers Dan Rudolph, IDSA, and Tyler Gilbert, IDSA,
led a team that developed the DISH Network DishPVR 721 in the satellite systems category."

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by Jacob S
I suppose one could ask if they would rather have a program guide, browse feature, and information screens available instead of something such as cable where you dont have that yet you can channel surf a lot faster without delay.

You can have both, though. When I last had cable, I had a full program guide and fast channel switching. The digital channels were slow coming up, but most of the channels were analog and came in right away.

Dennis

[krlauver]

I think it would be nice if the progress bar at the bottom of the screen during playback displayed the time into the show or the time remaining, perhaps even both like sony cd players. Perhaps a preference setting could control that.

[DmitriA]

Originally posted by treiher
I guess an even better question might be why to satellite receivers in general seem to have this delay?
MPEG decompression

[treiher]

By responding to this, we're probably digressing this thread beyond it's original intent, but your response DmitriA makes me wonder . . . does that mean digital cable also has this delay? I was not sure if they use MPEG compression in their signal as well. I switched to Dish when our cable provider started to force digital on me, so I have no experience with that. Can you surf rapidly with digital cable?

[Scott Greczkowski]

No Digital Cable (The channels above 100 are Digital the ones below are lower) takes a long time to change channels as well.

The ultimate problem is that the Mpeg Stream must download and uncompress then it can display the picture.

All kinds of Digital TV has this problem (the same goes for over the air Digital transmissions)

Of course a PVR has more of a delay because the MPEG stream is also written to the Hard Drive and then that MPEG stream is read and decoded from the Hard Drive.) This is why you can pause Live TV (Because Live TV is recorded to the hard drive) :)

[DarrellP]

You guys think you have a complaint waiting 1.5 seconds to tune in a satellite channel, try OTA digital. One of our local stations takes as long as 6-8 seconds to lock in. Most of them take about 2-3 seconds. So Qwitchyerbitchin and enjoy your satellite and digital cable surfing.

[treiher]

That's what I thought. So really, the choice is between fast analog, slow digital and even slower digital PVR. The difference between digital and digital PVR is not enough to matter. Both are difficult to channel surf on. So those of you who are unhappy with this should consider that the only way to channel surf is to switch back to analog cable. In my opinion, the benefits of digital so far outway this single advantage, which is partially negated by the programming guide anyway, that it is well worth the trade-off. It all boils down to:

Superior Picture quality
Programming guide
PVR features
Dolby Digital and PCM surround sound
Interactive features

vs.

channel surfing

[zimm0who0net]

I'm not sure I buy the "MPEG Compression" argument or the "hard-drive cache" argument. A TiVo can tune to an analog channel, MPEG encode the signal, spool it to disk, read it off the disk, and then MPEG decode all while providing sub half second tuning times.
The only things I can think of are:
1. Poor tuner design / programming on the part of the satellite guys.
--OR--
2. The bulk of the time is spent negotiating with the LNBF, locking onto the appropriate transponder, synching up the QPSK phase, decoding the QPSK signal and finally applying the forward error correction.

My guess is that it's a combination of both.

[Bogey62]

> It all boils down to: 

> Superior Picture quality
I guess you've never seen an analog C-band signal, especially HBO or Cinemax. There is no comparison, hands down, C-band wins.

> Dolby Digital

C-band

> Interactive features


who cares?


> vs.

> channel surfing 

You miss the point. :)

[Scott Greczkowski]

You take ANY Analog Cable system and match it up against ANY receiver from ANY DBS Company and you will have much faster channel surfing on Analog Cable TV then you do DBS.

But yes PVR receivers (again from any provider) will be slower to tune in channels then a standard non PVR receiver.

[jcrash]

Well from experience, I do know that if you have a non-PVR dish receiver within hearing range of a PVR Dish receiver, you'll go nuts if they are both on the same channel. There is a couple seconds delay between them even when the PVR is "live".

[Chaos]

So, just to bring us back to topic: Scott, have you received 1.05 yet?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Not yet, I am hoping for it tommorow night. (For some reason the Beta software for the 721 is only uplinked on Wednesday nights)

[MAllen]

Hello!

I am glad to see that a new software upgrade is coming out. I have had service from Dish for about 3 years with Dish 500 and two 5000 receivers. I upgraded one of my 5000's to a PVR 721 in late July and I upgraded my LNBF to a DishPro Quad then as well. I have loved the 721 ever since I turned it on for the first time (BIG improvement over my 5000). I have only one gripe, my wife is HOOKED on recording HER SHOWS, and I rarely get to use the 721, LOL.

Seriously though, I have questions about the upgrade. I was told that the 721 would have integration of Off Air/Cable channels (channels 2-99) into the Program guide like my 5000 does and local weather through interactive tv. We still have cable for local channels and unless the merger happens have no hope of getting locals on DBS. I have been assured by Dish that this would be included in a "future" software upgrade. Do you know if L1.05 will have these features. I noticed that the system did upgrade from 1.03 to 1.04 about a month or so ago. I would like to replace the second 5000, but I want to wait until the off air channels are integrated into the program guide.

I have noticed the "BUGS" , but they have not been that bad. One weirdness about the 721 I have noticed is that the smartcard has to be reseated occasionally. It seems that the heating and cooling cycles during on/off periods causes the card to be pushed out slightly. This is happening less and less as the system "ages". It can be fixed by either pushing (seating) the card in or pulling it out and then pushing it back in.

[Jacob S]

Doesn't the DirecTv receivers turn the channels a lot faster than Dish Network systems? Whats the comparison on the directivo's and the Dish Network pvr's ?

[scooper]

MAllen - That's probably only gonna happen if E* ever decides to carry your local stations. Especially since the 721 does not have the OTA tuner built in, like your 5000's do.

[buist]

Jacob S. - I had a DirecTivo system for 1 1/2 years.. I have noticed no difference in channel switching. As Scott has said, if you have a PVR, it is going to delay the channel switching..

Tim

[zimm0who0net]

I'm still not buying the argument about a PVR taking a longer time to swich channels than a non-PVR. I've got a 3900 and a 721. I tune both of them to the same channel and the video and audio are EXACTLY in sync. There is no delay to "fill the cache" as has been stated here. Clearly the engineers at EchoStar did something smart and bypassed the spool-to-disk/read-from-disk loop when you get to live. Rather the 721 just outputs what is being received directly as it spools it to disk.

Given this architecture there should be zero difference in tuning times between a 721 and any other receiver.

[treiher]

That's an interesting observation. I have always thought that the 721 and 501 take a longer time than our 301, but now I'm not so sure. Since I don't have them side-by-side, I haven't made that comparison. I have noticed that there is sometimes a kind of hick-up or split second pause a few seconds after I tune to a new channel on the 721 and have wondered if there was something going on there with it syncing the direct feed it already established with what's being recorded on the buffer. Has anyone else seen that?

By the way, we are only hours away from when Scott is supposed to receive L1.05. Can't wait to hear your update!

[rolou21]

Hey Scott...do you think you will get L1.05 tonight or is it delayed another week?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Hopefully I get it tonight or tommorow. :) I talked to them last night and they verified my unit id and smartcard number and everything.

Let's keep our fingers crossed. :) With my luck the update will come in the middle on my All Request Holiday Show tonight. :D

[Jacob S]

I KNOW there is a difference between the PVR units and the standard receivers such as the 301, 3900, 2700/2800. I have installed a lot of receivers and have seen some differences between both, the customer having a 301 in one room and a 721 in another room for example and comparing channel changing. Same with a 501 and a 301.

[treiher]

It's Thursday morning, Scott. Do you know where your L1.05 is? :)

[Scott Greczkowski]

It did not come last night, I was told earlier that it could come on Wednesday or Thursday night, since it wasn't last night I am hopefull that its tonight.

Whenever it comes you can expect to hear about it here.

And I DID get permission to post pictures from the new software for everyone to enjoy.

[jazzis]

Scott make sure there are no other reqauirements since this is a speacial beta update. Like does your unit need to be off at an exact time to recieve the download.

[SParker]

jazzis,

It would use the tuner not in use to download the software.

[Jacob S]

Will it come with a demonstration video that will be accessed from the PVR Events screen?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Hello from COLDnecticut! Where we have about 11 inches of fresh snow on the ground.

Now I have seen plenty of snow and I have lived in Connecticut for most of my life. Todays snow was probably the most slippery snow I have ever seen. It took over an hour an a half for me to drive to a place that is normally 10 minutes away.

To make matters worse my wife who is now going on her 9th month of pregnancy fell down flat on her stomach walking from her car. So we just spent the last 4 hours in the Hospital.

In checking my mail while typing this some good news, I should be receiving the update soon, I am in the queue and everything is a go. Now I am just sitting here and waiting. :) (I feel like a kid waiting for Santa Claus!)

I also got an official list of new things in the beta. And they are as follows (Note I was given HIGHLY technical descriptions, for the sake of everyone here I am breaking these descriptions down into something the general public can understand)... So here we go!

-- 4 New Games! The games are Xhyperoid, Solitaire, Invaders & Awele. (Now I realize a lot of folks say why are they wasting their time on game, the truth is there not, remember the 721 is basically a Linux Computer they have received permission and custom versions of games from the folks who make the games to use them on the 721. The Dish team basically unpacks the games and adds them to the games menu, the games are small and really take no resources)

-- Slow Motion and Frame by Frame advance

-- Sort PVR Recordings by Date or Name

-- Sort timers by groups

-- No more being kicked to live! (Yippie!)

-- Advance Guide by X number of Hours (Your pull up the guide then type in the number of hours you want to go ahead such as 100 and press Browse and your taken to it!)

-- Automatic Swap between tuners. (Lets say you found a show you want to record that is currently on, you press record to record it, now you want to keep recording but want to watch something else, before you would have to go to PIP then SWAP to the second tuner then shut off pip, with the new software by changing channels it will automatically flip to the second tuner if it is not being used. Your recording will continue in the back round!

-- A new way to display the expanded guide data

-- A new Transparent Guide

-- Enter Search items by using the number keys on the remote (just like a cell phone)

-- New Search Screen Layout

-- The ability to center graphics to fit your screen

-- Channel 0 Front A/V Input Support
(Hook your DVD player or XBOX to the AV Inputs on your 721 and you can watch or play your item through the 721 by selection channel 0. Note you can not record items from Channel 0 it is just an A/V passthrough)

-- New Virtual Keyboard

-- Low Battery Indicator
(Lets you know on screen when the batteries in your remote need to be replaced)

-- Ability to EXTEND a timer while that program is recording! (Let's say your watching a football game, the game goes into OT with a few presses of the buttons on your remote you can expand the time so you can record the entire game

-- Various Timer Bugs and other minor items have been fixed as well.

Overall this looks like a VERY exciting upgrade. I will report on it as soon as I have it and test it.

Stay tuned!

[zimm0who0net]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
-- Advance Guide by X number of Hours (Your pull up the guide then type in the number of hours you want to go ahead such as 100 and press Browse and your taken to it!)


Isn't this already in the guide?  Seems to work both forward and backward in mine...

[sjhill01]

How's your wife?!?!? Hope everything's ok :)

[Scott Greczkowski]

My wife and the baby are ok. (Phew I was NERVOUS Driving to the Hospital) First I was worried about her and the baby and secondly the roads were terrible very icy.

I am glad we are all home and are doing OK.

[Jacob S]

>>> A new way to display the expanded guide data <<<

What is that one all about? How does this work?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Not sure Jacob, guess I will find out soon. :)

BTW I keep on saying that waiting for this upgrade is like waiting for Santa to come. I have been warned by Echostar that while waiting for Santa is a good thing, they do not advise me to leaves cookies or milk on top of the 721. :lol:

[Jacob S]

LOL, thats a good one, how about milk and cookies for Charlie? He must be Santa this year. He should give us a present with new software releases to Dish customers before Christmas each year, or everyone a free pay per view or something. I know we get the music channel but how about something a little sweeter than milk and cookies?

[Bill D]

Scott..glad your wife and baby are doing well, good thing you are getting the software now, when the new baby comes you may be a little short on time to do a full review..
thanks for all the info..
Also maybe you should start a new thread for your review..

[Chaos]

Sort timers by group????? Could this mean that we can create the "folders" that we've all been talking about?

[Jacob S]

Will we be charged the monthly fee (playin' tv) charges for these four new games?

[dbronstein]

Are they going to document the upgrades somewhere so we can have a reference for the new features? It would be nice to be able to print out a sheet with the info to keep in the manual.

Dennis

[Scott Greczkowski]

Jacob the games on the 721 are FREE to play (They are not OpenTV Games)

Dennis,

I plan on writing up instructions on how to use all the features. I am also going to TRY to make a downloadable PDF file with instructions for you to print out. :)

[DmitriA]

Any chance they are going to port the XBill game? :D
(for those of you who aren't Linux geeks - that's a game where you have many Bill Gates running around trying to put Windows on the various Unix and Apple machines on your network and your job is to wack them before they get to it :) )

Or maybe they should change it to an XCharlie game where Charlie is running around trying to change your DirecTV and cable boxes to Dish :D :D :D

[DmitriA]

duplicate deleted

[dbronstein]

Scott, I appreciate your efforts. My point is that E* should be doing that. I wouldn't have known about any of the software upgrades if I didn't read this site, and I'm guessing there are probably a lot of people who have no idea when they get an upgrade. And even those who do might not know what features have been added. So how are they supposed to know they've got these new features they can use?

Dennis

[Scott Greczkowski]

Dennis that I can not answer for you, but I can tell you one thing.

I just recieved the new L1.05 upgrade!

I am presently going through it and will write my initial thoughts and screen shots ASAP!

[Doug E]

To DmitriA...Games are for the computers and the game consoles. Serious TV viewers could care less about games!

[DmitriA]

Doug,

I don't really need the games ('cause I can play them on my Linux box anyway) but since they are offering them (and apparently there is not much involved in porting them to DishLinux) they might as well offer the interesting ones...

[Scott Greczkowski]

ok folks the first screen shots are now online! You can find them in the following thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10115

ENJOY!

[Jacob S]

How about being able to determine what features you want in which takes up hard drive space, so that the customer can control how much hard drive space he can free up if he does not want perticular features, such as the games. How much space do these games really take up?

[Scott Greczkowski]

No I doubt we will ever see that, remember that 30 hours of space on the 721 hard drive is reserver for Echostars use, that use can be for software or even video on demand.

If you do a search for the games on the Internet you will find that the games are very very small. But again the games go into the Echostar part of the drive and does not effect the users space on the drive. If you don't like the games, best advice is don't play them. THey do not effect the PVR in any way. :D

[Jacob S]

Maybe a compromise, if we would run out of reserved space, is to pick and choose which games and software would go into that space. Is there enough space to put in a larger hard drive into this receiver in the future?

If they had a memory stick to put into the receivers just like some people put in bigger hard drives, making it upgradable, that would really be a plus for the future of these receivers, and make almost an unlimited amount of used for these receivers.

[Scott Greczkowski]

With 20 to 30 gig of space reserved for Echostar (and thats just arough estimate) I dont think you will have to worry about Games filling up the space. :)

[Jacob S]

That is what I was thinking at least on the games, we could have a long list of games, but some more advanced games may take up a little more space but still will not be that bad. Its the other things they may want to do with that space. They could allow the program guide to go ahead further into the future as well, things like that, or even use it for opentv application, storing that information on the hard drive, like dialing out to get a local weather radar to add to the weather application.

[Scott Greczkowski]

With all that space there, the sky is the limit for what they can do. :) The question is WHAT CAN they do with it?

[Jacob S]

Extend the program guide much longer, more games, weather radars in motion for weather application, opentv functions, internet applications, gee, i know there are some more interesting ideas for this extra space, but I think most of it is intended for video on demand. If they would put that in that extra space, then there would not be enough 721 users to make it worth doing would there?

[hmbbill]

My upgrade started a couple of hours ago, and I fear that it may be hung. I've been stuck at the "Download installation succeeded. Please wait while the system is upgraded" for more than an hour and a half. Should it really take this long? One quirk is that I had a previously scheduled recording request that started in the middle of the upgrade process. It appears to be recording (I have both the red record light and the orange message light on at this time). Any ideas what's going on?
Thanks,
...Bill

[Jason]

My upgrade started a couple of hours ago, and I fear that it may be hung. I've been stuck at the "Download installation succeeded. Please wait while the system is upgraded" for more than an hour and a half. Should it really take this long? One quirk is that I had a previously scheduled recording request that started in the middle of the upgrade process. It appears to be recording (I have both the red record light and the orange message light on at this time). Any ideas what's going on?
Thanks,
...Bill

This has happened to everyone...you need to hold the power button on the front of the 721 for 5 seconds and force it to manually reboot. Once it does you should be upgraded to L1.16 and be good to go.