Roof Install Nightmare

[Bigfoot365]

After a year of waiting for the HD receivers to become more stable, I finally took the plunge and ordered an HR20 and 5LNB dish upgrade a few weeks ago. The installer came last Friday 9/7 to do the upgrade.

I installed my old dish back in 1994 on a 4x4 front porch post and have never had any issues. The installer took one look and said the old location would not work for the new dish, ao after looking around a bit he decided he wanted to mount it on my roof. I wasn't thrilled about having holes drilled in my roof, but I finally gave in and told him to go ahead. Then, he proceeded to drive lag bolts through the shingles and decking with no regard to rafter location or pre-drilling holes and even split the edge of one rafter. He drilled a hole beside the mounting plate directly through the roof and ran the coax cables through.

I asked him how he was going to ground the dish and his response was 'we aren't allowed to ground the dishes anymore - they are grounded through the receiver'. Well, that set off a 20 minute argument because the mounting instructions clearly state that the dish and cables must be grounded back to the building ground.

Finally I gave up because I just wanted these guys off my property, and then I found out that my new HR20 was losing a tuner periodically. I called D* to tell them about the HR20 and the lack of grounding on the dish, and they sent another tech out yesterday. When he arrived, he took one look at the dish up on the roof, shook his head and said he couldn't touch it because it was a botched install, and that I had to call D* to file a damage claim on the roof. He did replace my HR20 and the new one works OK, so that at least was a plus.

Then I get back on the phone to D* and after over an hour of the usual menu navigation and getting cut off multiple times I reached a person who described what sounds like a nightmare of sending pictures and estimates, etc to some address in Colorado with no official forms for a damage claim 'evaluation'. Then they scheduled yet another tech to come out tomorrow.

Now my worry is that they will come out, remove the dish and leave my roof exposed, and have a problem finding another place to mount it. I have vinyl siding so it really isnt an option to mount it to the side of the house, and ther is not a great location for a pole mount, especially anywhere near the building ground.

Is it improper for the dish to be roof mounted, and is it a guarantee that it will eventually leak? I know there are probably 10 screws (mount plus 2 supports) and the hole where the cables are passing through at a minimum. Also, if roof mounting is a standard practice, how is the grounding usually routed? Is the ground block usually placed on the mast, or in the attic? Can the ground wire be routed through the attic and then back out to the building ground rod? I don't want cables draped all over my roof or all over the vinyl siding, but I don't know if I want a ground wire running through my attic, either.

Any suggestions?:confused:

[jimb726]

After a year of waiting for the HD receivers to become more stable, I finally took the plunge and ordered an HR20 and 5LNB dish upgrade a few weeks ago. The installer came last Friday 9/7 to do the upgrade.

I installed my old dish back in 1994 on a 4x4 front porch post and have never had any issues. The installer took one look and said the old location would not work for the new dish, ao after looking around a bit he decided he wanted to mount it on my roof. I wasn't thrilled about having holes drilled in my roof, but I finally gave in and told him to go ahead. Then, he proceeded to drive lag bolts through the shingles and decking with no regard to rafter location or pre-drilling holes and even split the edge of one rafter. He drilled a hole beside the mounting plate directly through the roof and ran the coax cables through.

I asked him how he was going to ground the dish and his response was 'we aren't allowed to ground the dishes anymore - they are grounded through the receiver'. Well, that set off a 20 minute argument because the mounting instructions clearly state that the dish and cables must be grounded back to the building ground.

Finally I gave up because I just wanted these guys off my property, and then I found out that my new HR20 was losing a tuner periodically. I called D* to tell them about the HR20 and the lack of grounding on the dish, and they sent another tech out yesterday. When he arrived, he took one look at the dish up on the roof, shook his head and said he couldn't touch it because it was a botched install, and that I had to call D* to file a damage claim on the roof. He did replace my HR20 and the new one works OK, so that at least was a plus.

Then I get back on the phone to D* and after over an hour of the usual menu navigation and getting cut off multiple times I reached a person who described what sounds like a nightmare of sending pictures and estimates, etc to some address in Colorado with no official forms for a damage claim 'evaluation'. Then they scheduled yet another tech to come out tomorrow.

Now my worry is that they will come out, remove the dish and leave my roof exposed, and have a problem finding another place to mount it. I have vinyl siding so it really isnt an option to mount it to the side of the house, and ther is not a great location for a pole mount, especially anywhere near the building ground.

Is it improper for the dish to be roof mounted, and is it a guarantee that it will eventually leak? I know there are probably 10 screws (mount plus 2 supports) and the hole where the cables are passing through at a minimum. Also, if roof mounting is a standard practice, how is the grounding usually routed? Is the ground block usually placed on the mast, or in the attic? Can the ground wire be routed through the attic and then back out to the building ground rod? I don't want cables draped all over my roof or all over the vinyl siding, but I don't know if I want a ground wire running through my attic, either.

Any suggestions?:confused:

Actually due to the size and weight of the dish, the roof mount is the way most of the installers will go.And my understanding is they use a special self sealing tape that they drill through to prevent leaks. I think that you will find that very very few roof installs leak. Also if the dish is ever removed the plate just stays on the roof. Curiously, you say mounting on the house isnt an option due to vinyl siding? Why is that an issue. I had mine mounted on the side of the house, mainly for asthetic purposes, so the dish couldnt be seen from the front of the house and I have had no problems at all. Whichever route you go make sure they put the support bars on to keep that sucker from moving in the wind.:eek2:

Jim

[vollmey]

What a mess. Mine is on the roof and I've seen a few more slimline's on the roof around Tulsa. As much rain as we have had here this year (7" Sat. morning) I have had no leak problems. My installer an I sealed it with silicone, and I have gone back a looked to make sure it is still sealed. Going up in the attic I have actually seen leaks around vents but not the dish, of course I spent a Saturday replacing vents.. Your good on the roof as long as you seal those bolt holes.

As far as grounding, you have to ground the dish. Some say you don't here but I think it's a must personally.

Hope things get fixed for you.

[Bigfoot365]

Actually due to the size and weight of the dish, the roof mount is the way most of the installers will go.And my understanding is they use a special self sealing tape that they drill through to prevent leaks. I think that you will find that very very few roof installs leak. Also if the dish is ever removed the plate just stays on the roof. Curiously, you say mounting on the house isnt an option due to vinyl siding? Why is that an issue. I had mine mounted on the side of the house, mainly for asthetic purposes, so the dish couldnt be seen from the front of the house and I have had no problems at all. Whichever route you go make sure they put the support bars on to keep that sucker from moving in the wind.:eek2:

Jim

Thanks for the reply. I'm pretty sure this guy did not have any type of self-sealing tape with him unless it was already attached to the mount before he started, but who knows. Do you have vinyl siding? I can't imagine mounting anything securely without removing a section of the siding and replacing it with some sort of rigid surface, because there is insulating styrofoam behind the siding and torquing down bolts through the mounting plate would surely damage the siding with a direct mount. Also, how is your ground routed?

[Bigfoot365]

What a mess. Mine is on the roof and I've seen a few more slimline's on the roof around Tulsa. As much rain as we have had here this year (7" Sat. morning) I have had no leak problems. My installer an I sealed it with silicone, and I have gone back a looked to make sure it is still sealed. Going up in the attic I have actually seen leaks around vents but not the dish, of course I spent a Saturday replacing vents.. Your good on the roof as long as you seal those bolt holes.

As far as grounding, you have to ground the dish. Some say you don't here but I think it's a must personally.

Hope things get fixed for you.

How is your ground routed from the roof? Unfortunately any of my possible mounting locations are on the opposite side of the house from the building ground rod, so that is going to be difficult no matter what. My wife really doesn't want the dish mounted on a pole in the yard (can't blame her, it took her almost 10 years to get me to remove the 10' C band eyesore from the yard) so I'm leaning toward leaving the dish on the roof and routing the ground through the attic and back down a wall and out to the rod.

[vollmey]

How is your ground routed from the roof? Unfortunately any of my possible mounting locations are on the opposite side of the house from the building ground rod, so that is going to be difficult no matter what. My wife really doesn't want the dish mounted on a pole in the yard (can't blame her, it took her almost 10 years to get me to remove the 10' C band eyesore from the yard) so I'm leaning toward leaving the dish on the roof and routing the ground through the attic and back down a wall and out to the rod.

Well, after much thought a discusssion on how to run the ground we finally decided to run the ground staight down the roof line, under the gutter and straight down the side of the house to the ground. My wife does not the like it because you can see the wire on the roof. The rest of the cable goes into the house through a vent right by the dish and then down the walls to each room.

My idea was to run the ground cable through the vent with the other cables and then come back through the house out the wall and down to the grounding block to the house. I could still do that, and I might. But, that's the way it is now.

[Mike500]

Well, after much thought a discusssion on how to run the ground we finally decided to run the ground staight down the roof line, under the gutter and straight down the side of the house to the ground. My wife does not the like it because you can see the wire on the roof. The rest of the cable goes into the house through a vent right by the dish and then down the walls to each room.

My idea was to run the ground cable through the vent with the other cables and then come back through the house out the wall and down to the grounding block to the house. I could still do that, and I might. But, that's the way it is now.

The ground wire MUST be run outside to conform to code.

[Bigfoot365]

I've been told that the ground could be run through the attic and still meet code. Do you mean that the termination point must be outside, or the entire run?

The ground wire MUST be run outside to conform to code.

[Mike500]

I installed my old dish back in 1994 on a 4x4 front porch post and have never had any issues. The installer took one look and said the old location would not work for the new dish, ao after looking around a bit he decided he wanted to mount it on my roof. I wasn't thrilled about having holes drilled in my roof, but I finally gave in and told him to go ahead. Then, he proceeded to drive lag bolts through the shingles and decking with no regard to rafter location or pre-drilling holes and even split the edge of one rafter. He drilled a hole beside the mounting plate directly through the roof and ran the coax cables through.

The 4x4 post would be just fine, but the vast majority of installers are incapable of and do not have the time to fabricate the necessary structual bracing needed to make it work.

Driving lag screws through the shingles would be fine, if they knew what specific screws to used and how to drive them. They should be fully threaded and not have a section with a smooth shank. They should be made of hardened steel, rather than the low strength ones commonly sold that snap off easily when driven without pre-drilling. Not pre-drilling assures a tight seal by the tar in the shingles, which is melted and rehardens around the screw during and after driving. They should be three inches long and at least the two center ones should be driven into the rafters. These are not widely available in most hardware stores and are not cheap. The top of each screw head should be sealed with silicone after driven home. I prefer this method, because the entire roof mounting plate, when removed, can allow the roof to be restored and be made leakproof. Shoving a sheet of aluminum flashing under each shingle tab and sealing each small hole makes the repair appear almost invisible from the ground. Using sealant under the mounting really does not enhance the seal, but assures that there will always be an ugly black patch when the mounting is removed.

Direct entry into a roof requires a weatherproof entry head and a pipe flashing correctly installed. I often use a custom made flashing; one where there is al least a three inch drip edge over the roof entry hole. A direct entry sealed with a dab of silicone will quickly fail in a couple of months and result in a roof leak.

In your particular case, to repair the installer, the whole assembly should be removed. A piece of aluminum flashing should be placed under the shingle tab with the cable entry hole. Since you said that the screws could be seen in the attic, 2x6 wood cross members should be nailed in between the rafters. The dish should then be reinstalled. If roof cable entry MUST be used, it must be done in the prescribed manner discussed above.

[vollmey]

I've been told that the ground could be run through the attic and still meet code. Do you mean that the termination point must be outside, or the entire run?

You could be right, but I think that's the termination point. Mine is still outside and might stay outside, it all depends on how much motivation I have. But I will look into the code stuff either way, and might also Bigfoot.

[Mike500]

I've been told that the ground could be run through the attic and still meet code. Do you mean that the termination point must be outside, or the entire run?

No, Article 820 of the NEC requires that the grounding wires run outside. This is because the ground wire must not run next to combustible material. A high amperage lightning strike through the ground wire would start a fire within the structure.

[Bigfoot365]

It makes sense to me that the grounding would need to be outside. Wouldn't shingles and siding be considered combustible material too? If so, would you have to use some sort of insulated standoffs to run the ground from the roof?

[Mike500]

It makes sense to me that the grounding would need to be outside. Wouldn't shingles and siding be considered combustible material too? If so, would you have to use some sort of insulated standoffs to run the ground from the roof?


The majority of shingles sold, today have a UL fire rating. Al least, outside, it is the best of two evils. A fire within the structure is much worse than one outside. A lightning strike outside occrurs over a few nanoseconds and might not likely ignite the surface on which it lays.

[vollmey]

The majority of shingles sold, today have a UL fire rating. Al least, outside, it is the best of two evils. A fire within the structure is much worse than one outside. A lightning strike outside occrurs over a few nanoseconds and might not likely ignite the surface on which it lays.

Just called the city. Yes code for Sat. Dishes needs to be done on the outside. I would suspect like Mike says for lighting strikes.

[Bigfoot365]

Did they happen to mention whether or not there is a 20 foot limit on the ground wire length? I'm getting a lot of conflicting information even from someone who is supposed to be a NEC guru.

I'm beginning to lean toward leaving my dish on the roof, pulling the cables back through the hole and patching it as Mike500 suggested, and running a ground wire underneath the overhang and down to the rod. The length of the cable will certainly be over 20 feet (more like 50 feet) but it seems that would be better than nothing.

Just called the city. Yes code for Sat. Dishes needs to be done on the outside. I would suspect like Mike says for lighting strikes.

[Mike500]

Did they happen to mention whether or not there is a 20 foot limit on the ground wire length? I'm getting a lot of conflicting information even from someone who is supposed to be a NEC guru.

I'm beginning to lean toward leaving my dish on the roof, pulling the cables back through the hole and patching it as Mike500 suggested, and running a ground wire underneath the overhang and down to the rod. The length of the cable will certainly be over 20 feet (more like 50 feet) but it seems that would be better than nothing.


Yes, there is a 20 ft requirement in the code, but it has to do with the distance that the system ground is connected to the grounding block for the coax. The grounding block should be placed as closed to the point, whre the coax enters the structure.

One other point; the grounding wire should be at least #10 gauge copper or larger.

[vollmey]

Did they happen to mention whether or not there is a 20 foot limit on the ground wire length? I'm getting a lot of conflicting information even from someone who is supposed to be a NEC guru.

I'm beginning to lean toward leaving my dish on the roof, pulling the cables back through the hole and patching it as Mike500 suggested, and running a ground wire underneath the overhang and down to the rod. The length of the cable will certainly be over 20 feet (more like 50 feet) but it seems that would be better than nothing.

No he did not. I went out and looked at mine at lunch and it's at least 20ft and he had some extra it looked like down by the grounding point.

[Matthew]

Three months after they installed my dish, it pulled out of the bolts and is now laying on the roof. They are coming to re-install but what a PITA. The installers have no idea what they are doing.

[Bigfoot365]

I think I am becoming more confused as I go. After reading section 810.21G of the NEC online it states that the antenna ground can be run inside or outside, #10 minimum, and does not seem to give a maximum length.

However, section 820.100 states as you mentioned that the max length should be no more than 20 feet for the coax cable grounding and unless I misread section 820.100(A)(1) that ground conductor is required to be insulated?!

I fail to see how many current installations could meet code as many of the dishes I see are high upon the roof peaks of multi-story houses and if grounded the run would have to be over 20 feet.

I'm to the point now that the roof mounting seems insignificant next to the grounding requirements. I'm capable of going up and reinforcing the rafters, rerouting the cables and sealing the holes, but the grounding requirement is looking next to impossible for me.

Yes, there is a 20 ft requirement in the code, but it has to do with the distance that the system ground is connected to the grounding block for the coax. The grounding block should be placed as closed to the point, whre the coax enters the structure.

One other point; the grounding wire should be at least #10 gauge copper or larger.

[Mike500]

In the case, where the cables enter into the roof, even if it is more than 20 feet to the service ground, you are just fine. The code states 20 feet, but in this case, there is what is called a mitigating exception, since you have taken a "prudent attempt" to comply.

No, the ground wire can be bare or any color you desire. You can match it to hide it on the roof. At the jointing to the ground, ideally, it should be wrapped in green electrical tape, so it will not be confused with a supply cable or a neutral conductor.

[Bigfoot365]

Thanks for your help!

In the case, where the cables enter into the roof, even if it is more than 20 feet to the service ground, you are just fine. The code states 29 feet, but in this case, there is what is called a mitigating exception, since you have taken a "prudent attempt" to comply.

No, the ground wire can be bare or any color you desire. You can match it to hide it on the roof. At the jointing to the ground, ideally, it should be wrapped in green electrical tape, so it will not be confused with a supply cable or a neutral conductor.

[K4SMX]

Let's go back to the 4 x 4 post for a minute. I was able to successfully adapt the AU9-S mounting plate to a 4 x 4 post which was used as a porch roof support as follows:

The back of the AU9-S mounting plate will not match up to a 4 x4 post because of the grooves in the plate. Additionally, the 4 outside holes are wider than 4" apart. I went down to the local sheet metal shop and had them cut me a piece of the stainless steel plate they use for making truck boxes, etc., you know, the thick stuff with the diamond pattern. It was cut exactly the shape of the dish back plate. Then he drilled holes matching up with the two center holes in the AU9-S mounting plate. (Cost=$10) I then pre-drilled the 4 x 4, after making sure the holes would result in the mounting arm being plumb in that plane. (There's some wiggle room for final adjustment.) I put two stainless steel bolts through the whole assembly and secured the other side with ss nuts, lock washers, and big flat washers. (Cost=$5) Then, after plumbing the arm in that plane, I tightened the LS out of it.

Now you might think, "Two bolts? That'll never work." I assure you, I would have bent the mounting arm bracket before that mounting plate moved one iota. And I suppose in a really big storm that 4 x 4 could crack and the whole thing blow away. (It's not the only support for the roof, BTW!) But the advantage is, it's right there where I can get to it, both for adjustment of the dish as well as temporary removal (after marking the final AZ position on the mount!) when the Category 5 is on the way. Of course you can't even use mounting struts in this installation, but when you're at 93-100 on all relevant transponders, a little flexing of the dish arm in a good wind is not gonna bother you a bit.

[Bigfoot365]

I'm with you on the ease of access angle, but the minute my wife saw the new 'slimline' dish she did not want it mounted on our porch posts anyway. I guess I'm not that big on appearances because I really don't mind having it there, but her vote wins :lol:

Let's go back to the 4 x 4 post for a minute. I was able to successfully adapt the AU9-S mounting plate to a 4 x 4 post which was used as a porch roof support as follows:

The back of the AU9-S mounting plate will not match up to a 4 x4 post because of the grooves in the plate. Additionally, the 4 outside holes are wider than 4" apart. I went down to the local sheet metal shop and had them cut me a piece of the stainless steel plate they use for making truck boxes, etc., you know, the thick stuff with the diamond pattern. It was cut exactly the shape of the dish back plate. Then he drilled holes matching up with the two center holes in the AU9-S mounting plate. (Cost=$10) I then pre-drilled the 4 x 4, after making sure the holes would result in the mounting arm being plumb in that plane. (There's some wiggle room for final adjustment.) I put two stainless steel bolts through the whole assembly and secured the other side with ss nuts, lock washers, and big flat washers. (Cost=$5) Then, after plumbing the arm in that plane, I tightened the LS out of it.

Now you might think, "Two bolts? That'll never work." I assure you, I would have bent the mounting arm bracket before that mounting plate moved one iota. And I suppose in a really big storm that 4 x 4 could crack and the whole thing blow away. (It's not the only support for the roof, BTW!) But the advantage is, it's right there where I can get to it, both for adjustment of the dish as well as temporary removal (after marking the final AZ position on the mount!) when the Category 5 is on the way.

[K4SMX]

I'm with you on the ease of access angle, but the minute my wife saw the new 'slimline' dish she did not want it mounted on our porch posts anyway. I guess I'm not that big on appearances because I really don't mind having it there, but her vote wins :lol:
Yup, the WAF is crucial. In my case, it was already a second floor porch location, so the AU9-S doesn't look that big from the ground. She could probably figure out a way to decorate behind it with flowers, though....

[jimb726]

Thanks for the reply. I'm pretty sure this guy did not have any type of self-sealing tape with him unless it was already attached to the mount before he started, but who knows. Do you have vinyl siding? I can't imagine mounting anything securely without removing a section of the siding and replacing it with some sort of rigid surface, because there is insulating styrofoam behind the siding and torquing down bolts through the mounting plate would surely damage the siding with a direct mount. Also, how is your ground routed?
I do have vinyl siding, but my siding does not have insulation behind it, my insulation is in the wall. That sucker is absolutely solid, and we have some serious winds where I live, I have had several storm where the wind gets up above 50 MPH and it hasnt moved the dish. My ground runs straight down my house, where my electrical box is and is tied into the house's grounding rod.

[Bigfoot365]

The original install was last Friday and we had our first rain in a while last night. Guess what? My roof is leaking around one of the mounting bolts that the bozo screwed in on an angle and split the edge off a rafter.

So, this morning MASTEC was scheduled to come out again to move the dish so I could get the roof taken care of, but they didn't show. After spending another hour on the phone, now a 'damage claim' supervisor is coming out to take pictures.

All this while I still have a roof leak and an ungrounded dish on my house. SO - I got out my ladder and climbed up to take a look myself. Looks like the guy did not put any kind of sealing tape or sealant under the mounts. Then he just dabbed a bit of clear silicon on top of the bolt heads and called it a day. I also noticed that one of the extra supports seemed loose, and after further inspection he had sheared off the bolt that held it to the mounting foot.

Yes, this HD is wonderful.

[K4SMX]

That 4 x 4 is looking better ever time you post...

[Mike500]

It is more likely than not that the cause of your leak is the roof penetration and entry for the cables.

I have used the technique that I previously decribed without the so called sealing pads for over 20 years with #14 or 1/4 inch high tensile hex head drive screws with an impact driver. Because they are as tough as the SAE Grade 5 fasteners used to assemble engine components in cars, I have yet to snap one off, when using an impact driver to run them in. These were the same that I used to install antenna trpods and solar water heater panels in Southern California twenty or more years ago. Since they make such a small hole, and driving them melts the asphalt that rehardens, they make a good seal. I have not had them leak.

The leak has to be from the roof cable entry. Water can follow the cable like a hose through the entry point. Not doing the roof entry correctly has got to be the reason for the leak.

[Bigfoot365]

The leak is coming around the top center mounting bolt on the main bracket, which after inspection is driven in at an angle making the bolt head not seat on the mounting bracket. The installer had just touched a little sealant around the bolt head, but any mousture making it under the bracket is coming down beside the bolt.

So far, the cable entry has been dry, but it is only a matter of time until it leaks.

MASTEC's damage claims department is supposed to be coordinating a dish move/roof repair now. I'm not holding my breath.

[jackaninny]

google for 'commdeck' from rstc enterprises

they make a product that is no harder to install than a standard roof vent. nice people - sent me a new cap that is compatible with the larger foot for the slimline dish for free. i also really like their strutclip product.

just a satisfied customer.

[Meglos]

Bigfoot365, like jackaninny wrote in the previous post, look into Commdeck (http://www.rstcenterprises.com/). It lets you put all attic penetrations under the shingles. I self-installed an AT-9 last fall using Commdeck and it worked out great.

(See a write-up on my installation (http://www.ed.scherer.name/5018Arapahoe/Projects/DirecTVDish/DirecTVDishStory.html), including some photos, if you're interested).

The one thing I still need to do is improve the grounding. I've currently got a through-the-attic ground wire, which I intend to replace with an exterior wire when we work on landscaping the backyard within the next few months. We've got the "need to get all the way around to the opposite side of the house" grounding problem, so I plan on sinking a new grounding rod near the foundation on the dish side of the house and then run the long bonding wire from that rod back to the main grounding rod. It's going to be a long run.