501 recordings auto deletion when drive is full

[Adrian_R]

Looking for a sanity check on something. Please read and let me know if I'm right or not about this.

Its been my observation that when the 501's hard drive is full, it starts at the oldest recording of the previously recorded list, and working to the newest recording on the list, deletes unprotected recordings. If you have no protected recordings, then the 501 (in theory) will continue to clear out space on its hard drive for newer recordings, for as long as it needs space on the hard drive.

However, if the 501 gets to a protected recording, instead of skipping over it, and going to the next newer recording on the list, it will instead stop and display a dialog asking the user if they want to delete the protected recording. This will cause newer timers to not record, etc. Basically everything stops in its tracks.

For example, if I have this previously recorded list:

Show 5 11/09
Show 4 11/07 Protected
Show 3 11/07
Show 2 11/06 Protected
Show 1 11/04

If the hard drive gets full, the 501 will delete "Show 1", then stop and display a "Do you want me to delete this?" type of message for "Show 2".

I think I'm right on this (let me know if I'm not). What I'd like to see happen, again using the above example list, is to have "Show 1", "Show 3", and "Show 5" deleted automatically (in order), and THEN when there is no more room, have the 501 display a "No Hard Drive Space Left, Delete Protected Recordings" error message. That way no timers will be missed because there's no human around to answer an error message.

Its almost like the programmer got lazy and just iterated through the list, stopping at the first protected recording he/she got to, instead of just iterating over non-protected recordings.

Comments?

[llunken]

You are you correct in your thinking. I have noticed that also.

[Adrian_R]

Thanks for the reply.

Hopefully, if Dish does read these forums, they will consider what I've said. Makes the 501 more usable.

[Chris Blount]

Wow! That's a very good observation. Thanks for letting us know. We will pass this on to Dish.

[Adrian_R]

Thanks. I'm curious to find out from Dish if they meant it to work the way I described originally, or the way that I wished it worked? Any way of getting feedback from them on this? Just curious.

[voyagerbob]

Originally posted by Adrian_R
Looking for a sanity check on something. Please read and let me know if I'm right or not about this.

Its been my observation that when the 501's hard drive is full, it starts at the oldest recording of the previously recorded list, and working to the newest recording on the list, deletes unprotected recordings. If you have no protected recordings, then the 501 (in theory) will continue to clear out space on its hard drive for newer recordings, for as long as it needs space on the hard drive.

However, if the 501 gets to a protected recording, instead of skipping over it, and going to the next newer recording on the list, it will instead stop and display a dialog asking the user if they want to delete the protected recording. This will cause newer timers to not record, etc. Basically everything stops in its tracks.

For example, if I have this previously recorded list:

Show 5 11/09
Show 4 11/07 Protected
Show 3 11/07
Show 2 11/06 Protected
Show 1 11/04

If the hard drive gets full, the 501 will delete "Show 1", then stop and display a "Do you want me to delete this?" type of message for "Show 2".

I think I'm right on this (let me know if I'm not). What I'd like to see happen, again using the above example list, is to have "Show 1", "Show 3", and "Show 5" deleted automatically (in order), and THEN when there is no more room, have the 501 display a "No Hard Drive Space Left, Delete Protected Recordings" error message. That way no timers will be missed because there's no human around to answer an error message.

Its almost like the programmer got lazy and just iterated through the list, stopping at the first protected recording he/she got to, instead of just iterating over non-protected recordings.

Comments?


My 501 does exactly as you "wish it would". I have never seen the "Do you want me to delete this?" and my drive is always full. Usually with about 20 hours protected and the other 15 or so not. It has worked this way since day one. I've never had all 35 hours protected and don't want to chance that it would screw things up somehow.

MIne would delete show 1,3, and 5.

[Adrian_R]

Originally posted by voyagerbob



My 501 does exactly as you "wish it would". I have never seen the "Do you want me to delete this?" and my drive is always full. Usually with about 20 hours protected and the other 15 or so not. It has worked this way since day one. I've never had all 35 hours protected and don't want to chance that it would screw things up somehow.

MIne would delete show 1,3, and 5.

Well, I'm not sure what to say. I've physically seen mine do what I described (stop on the first protected recording). I paraphrased the "do you want me to delete me" message text, but that's the basic jist of what its about. I get the "delete protected recording to make room on drive" message, and there are lots of unprotected recordings still available for deletion. That's the bottom line for me. Maybe its a software version thing (I'm at P167)???

One other thing. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the first/oldest recording is protected or not; if its one way (ex.: not protected) then it works fine, but if its the other way (ex.: protected), then it stops and prompts the user to delete recordings???

[voyagerbob]

Originally posted by Adrian_R


Well, I'm not sure what to say. I've physically seen mine do what I described (stop on the first protected recording). I paraphrased the "do you want me to delete me" message text, but that's the basic jist of what its about. I get the "delete protected recording to make room on drive" message, and there are lots of unprotected recordings still available for deletion. That's the bottom line for me. Maybe its a software version thing (I'm at P167)???

One other thing. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the first/oldest recording is protected or not; if its one way (ex.: not protected) then it works fine, but if its the other way (ex.: protected), then it stops and prompts the user to delete recordings???





I don't doubt a bit yours does what you say. I don't know why mine works and yours doesn't. I'll give some info on how I use it in case that will make something stick out as to why it works.


Right now my bottom 15 recordings are protected. Then they are mixed the rest of the way up. I'll have to check and see what version I'm on at home. I record about 10 to 12 hours of shows per day (about 10 unprotected and 2 protected) and the older unprotected ones just roll right off. Right now it has about 20 hours of christmas shows protected for the kids. I have about 25 recurring timers and usually have about another 15-20 one time recordings. I wish they would up the limit of timers to 100 I'm always running out after setting up non-recurring timers for about three or four days in advance. I have the password function going. Thats about all I can think of. I'll post later what version I'm on.

Voyagerbob

[voyagerbob]

Looks like I have software version 166 Hopefully 167 won't screw me up.

[Bob Haller]

gee I have never filled the HD. My wife deletes everything when viewed:( Now and then something I havent seen:(:(*....

[Chris Blount]

Okay guys, here is some information I received from Dish about this issue. It looks like the next software release will help clear things up:
-----------------------------------------------------

If the user starts a Manual record by hitting the Record button while
watching a show (in view mode) then the box will record until it is manually
stopped or, the drive fills up. It will not delete any events in this mode.
The concern is that someone starts a manual record but forgets to stop it,
we don't want to also delete all unprotected events. We assume the
unprotected events are more valuable than a 30 hour recording of a channel.

About 5 minutes before the drive fills up, in this case, you are asked if
you want to delete any events to make room for continuing to record. If you
are not there or answer no, then the recording will stop when the drive is
full.

In the next release we will have the mini pop-up that asks what you want to
do when you press record in view mode. Record till the end of the event,
record till the end but add some time, record until manual stop, or setup a
future timer (for next week etc). This will probably eliminate a lot of
these issues since record until manual stop will not be a popular choice.
----------------------------------------------------

[Adrian_R]

Originally posted by Chris Blount
Okay guys, here is some information I received from Dish about this issue. It looks like the next software release will help clear things up...

Great info/news! Thanks.

Does this also include the situation where a timer is created on the fly in real time by hitting the record button while in the guide, and the guide has highlighted/selected the currently running show?

Thanks again to you (and Dish) for the reply. Its appreciated.

[Adrian_R]

Originally posted by Chris Blount
In the next release we will have the mini pop-up that asks what you want to
do when you press record in view mode. Record till the end of the event,
record till the end but add some time, record until manual stop, or setup a
future timer (for next week etc). This will probably eliminate a lot of
these issues since record until manual stop will not be a popular choice.

Sounds great, but you didn't mention (maybe its implied) if unprotected recordings will now be deleted or not? In other words, this new information talks about the manual timer settings, but doesn't mention if now manual timers will delete unprotected recordings or not.

For example, if I start a manual recording, and select the "record until the end of the event", and during this recording, the drive fills up, will it now delete unprotected recordings?

Thanks for your efforts!

[Chris Blount]

Here is the information you seek. This should have been in my last post. Sorry
------------------------------------------

If you set up a timer to record and the drive is near full, 5 minutes
before the drive fills up you are asked weather you want to delete events.
If you do not respond to this (because you are not there) the box will
automatically delete the oldest un-protected event, just like the wish list.
The reason that the question is asked is so that if you are in front of the
unit you can choose any event to delete to make room, instead of the oldest
event chosen by the system.
------------------------------------------------

[Adrian_R]

Sounds great. Bottom line for me is that I don't lose my currently recording show when there are unprotected recordings that can be deleted, and this sounds like it will do the trick.

Thanks again for working with Dish to get me an answer on this! :)

[TomCat]

Originally posted by voyagerbob



My 501 does exactly as you "wish it would". I have never seen the "Do you want me to delete this?" and my drive is always full. Usually with about 20 hours protected and the other 15 or so not. It has worked this way since day one. I've never had all 35 hours protected and don't want to chance that it would screw things up somehow.

MIne would delete show 1,3, and 5.

Agreed. Mine operates the same way. But, you are probably taking more of a chance of "screwing things up" by regularly filling the HD than you are by protecting everything.

All HD-based video recording devices have potentially more problems once the HD becomes over 90% full, even including the quarter-million-dollar variety I maintain at work. It's similar to the catalog tree and fragmentation issues seen on your regular computer HD should it get close to filled up. Whether things are protected or not should not contribute to or aggravate this problem, unless the 501 treats unprotected recordings similar to how a desktop computer treats already "deleted" files, which are in reality still there on the HD but any pointers to them are gone.

A real-world example of this is that during the period when folks seemed to get their hard drives wiped on their 501's a year or so ago, the vast majority of those affected had filled the HD to within a couple hours of totally full (this based on daily perusing of these forums). While the occasional HD wipe still happens (I've seen one report in the last 6 months or so) it's nowhere near as likely, but you are still tempting fate by letting the HD fill up, on the 501 as on any PVR or HD.

BTW, before I became this cautious I let my 501 fill up once (and I protect virtually everything). The next scheduled recording was Letterman, and there was 48 unprotected minutes left on the HD. I awoke to a new recording of the first 48 minutes of Letterman, a repeating (and therefore not pre-protected) recording. This left me very impressed, as I thought this is exactly how the 501 SHOULD behave. I'd rather have the first 48 minutes of Letterman than a snotty dialog telling me there's not enough room so it did nothing.

[Adrian_R]

Originally posted by TomCat ... unless the 501 treats unprotected recordings similar to how a desktop computer treats already "deleted" files, which are in reality still there on the HD but any pointers to them are gone. ...

This is what I want the 501 to do, to treat unprotected recordings like the same way a PC treats files that have "deleted" but not removed from the hard drive yet, but are overwritten when the space is needed.

Actually, I have several PC's at home (I do freelance programming work), and on a couple of them, I keep them 99% full all of the time, without a hitch.

I think some of the flakiness of the 501 and full drive status has to do with the programming of the 501 itself and how it handles the situation, and not just the fact that the drive is almost full (since PC's do not have the same problem on average). Remember, in theory, the 501 also has a one(?) hour buffer which is seperate from the space used to store timer recordings (I say that because I can run out of room on my 501 and still be able to use the buffer in live mode to go back), so in theory the drive is not completly full, just that the partition (area, etc.) that is used to save recordings is full, so the 501 should have reserved space left to do its stuff and not crap out. I could be wrong on this, but that's been my observation.

Bottom line, my 501 does fill up because our family lives a busy life (work late, grocery shopping, Boy Scouts, soccer, piano, etc.), so we are not always able to watch shows right away and then delete them, to keep the hard drive space free. Also, we treat our 501 like an archiver, by letting it fill up with shows that we like to watch, and when(if) we have the time to sit down and watch, we do then delete the watched show, otherwise the old shows go away for the new shows. Its VITAL (for our family at least) that the 501 (and any PVR for that matter) can handle this workload situation! And really, at the end of the day, it shouldn't be that hard of a thing to do. :shrug: