Official: D10 in orbit testing, national beams ok, problem with spotbeams

[bonscott87]

From DirecTV Investor Relations: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1051829&highlight=

DIRECTV 10 In-Orbit Testing Underway

EL SEGUNDO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 14, 2007--The DIRECTV 10 satellite, launched on July 6, 2007, has been successfully placed in geo-synchronous orbit and is currently undergoing in-orbit testing. The testing process has confirmed that the satellite is fully functional to deliver all planned nationwide HD programming. This will enable DIRECTV to deliver up to 100 HD channels nationwide by year-end.

The DIRECTV 10 satellite's transponder payload also includes spot-beam capacity that will support the expansion of DIRECTV's local HD channel services. While testing of DIRECTV 10's capability continues, it appears that a portion of the anticipated spot-beam capability may not be fully available. The investigation to determine the cause of the reduced capability and potential means to mitigate its effect is on-going. However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected.

The launch of DIRECTV 11 is still scheduled for late this year or early next year, on a Sea Launch launch vehicle.

DIRECTV currently offers local HD broadcast channels in 60 cities, representing more than 70 percent of U.S. TV households. In addition, DIRECTV has agreements in place to rollout multiple HD channels from top content providers such as Disney, Discovery Communications, A&E Television Networks, HBO, Fox, Turner, NBC Universal, Showtime Networks, Starz and Scripps Networks, among others.

[bonscott87]

National HD channels are very, very close!

[compnurd]

National HD channels are very, very close!

I wonder if it will affect more then they are stating

[garoo]

I hope not :mad:

[syphix]

The local spot beam problem has gotta hurt....ouch....hope they can resolve the problem!

[garoo]

but it should just hurt the people without their locals right?

[jlancaster]

but it should just hurt the people without their locals right?
True

[EaglePC]

Houston we have a problem
everyone throw there HDTV's out the window

[mexican-bum]

wonder if the spot beams are not covering a certain area they anticipated, if so they maybe able to move some locals off the spaceway sats to D10 so the spaceway sats can beam new locals in those locations that D10 can't, of course all just speculation:rolleyes:

[Earl Bonovich]

Re-Read the statement....

"However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected."

Basically... everything they have planned... is not affected.

[VeniceDre]

Man, I had this info yesterday and didn't want to start a riot... I should've just dropped the bomb anyway.

[mexican-bum]

Re-Read the statement....

"However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected."

Basically... everything they have planned... is not affected.

Thats why I posted what I said, if there is a problem maybe they can work around it..... :)

[Araxen]

Well the rumors were partially true about D10 that there was something wrong, just nothing catastrophic wrong. Which is a very good thing!

[garoo]

Re-Read the statement....

"However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected."

Basically... everything they have planned... is not affected.

I wonder what "materially affected" means?? :whatdidid I'm an accountant and "materiality" can be hard to define....

[Smthkd]

Seems like the expected "backup" spotbeams are not functioning! So, this will only be a problem in the future! I wonder is this small failure enough for them to launch D12 in its place!?

[henryld]

I wonder what "materially affected" means?? :whatdidid I'm an accountant and "materiality" can be hard to define....
Some more of that legal speak I imagine.

[VeniceDre]

From what I heard yesterday, they were having problems on Wednesday during testing with D10. It wasn't doing what it was supposed and the only way to fix it was to bring it down. Which, of course, wasn't going to happen. There was a mention of certain states in the Northwest which I hoped meant it was spotbeams and not nationals.

[brewer4]

Re-Read the statement....

"However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected."

Basically... everything they have planned... is not affected.

Several statements are up for interpretation and are filled with legalize.

Materially- To a significant extent or degree; substantially.

Which means there could be some loss of channels but not the lion share. There's lots of gray area in that but they have to say that. There's no guarantee they can find the issue and fix it. Lets just hope they figure it out and folks dont get materially affected. ;)

[say-what]

Meaning they may just use D10 for national channels and whatever spots are working as planned & D11 for spots. Or they could shift spot beams among the existing fleet to get the necessary coverage. Then again, if the national coverage works as planned, they can just put some locals on national beams.

All they're saying is that they're not going to have the number of spot beams on D10 that they thought - at least that's how I'm reading the statement.

[garoo]

From what I heard yesterday, they were having problems on Wednesday during testing with D10. It wasn't doing what it was supposed and the only way to fix it was to bring it down. Which, of course, wasn't going to happen. There was a mention of certain states in the Northwest which I hoped meant it was spotbeams and not nationals.

I'm happy I live in the South!! :lol:

[mexican-bum]

Meaning they may just use D10 for national channels and whatever spots are working as planned & D11 for spots. Or they could shift spot beams among the existing fleet to get the necessary coverage. Then again, if the national coverage works as planned, they can just put some locals on national beams.

All they're saying is that they're not going to have the number of spot beams on D10 that they thought - at least that's how I'm reading the statement.

broadcasting locals as national channels reduces the limit of national channels they can broadcast:(

[generalpatton78]

But wasn't their a plan to reconfigure several spot beams to cover the entire U.S. and use them to deliver some more national hd channels???

[Bob Coxner]

Meaning they may just use D10 for national channels and whatever spots are working as planned & D11 for spots. Or they could shift spot beams among the existing fleet to get the necessary coverage. Then again, if the national coverage works as planned, they can just put some locals on national beams.

All they're saying is that they're not going to have the number of spot beams on D10 that they thought - at least that's how I'm reading the statement.

I remember a period when there were a fair number of locals on CONUS. IIRC, Tucson was one of them.

[Earl Bonovich]

So ultimately, it may mean that they don't have the capacity for 1,500 locals... Or they won't have it until something is fixed, or swapped or what.

Time will tell...

[MikeR]

All they're saying is that they're not going to have the number of spot beams on D10 that they thought - at least that's how I'm reading the statement.

What they are not saying, how does this affect the long term viability and function of the sat??? The problem is....if is more than one spotbeam (seems like it), then it is not isolated to the spotbeam itself, but could be something with the "system"...ie - power distribution, etc

[Earl Bonovich]

I remember a period when there were a fair number of locals on CONUS. IIRC, Tucson was one of them.

IIRC: at the start, all locals where CONUS.

[mexican-bum]

IIRC: at the start, all locals where CONUS.

5 conus beams= 25 spot beams I believe as you can reuse the same freq. in different areas

[MikeR]

5 conus beams= 25 spot beams I believe as you can reuse the same freq. in different areas

So does this mean bitrate starvation in the future on some nationals?

[FlyBono24]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?

[MikeW]

IIRC: at the start, all locals where CONUS.

Yes...it was a "movers" paradise.

Along the lines of "vision" on the part of DirecTV, when they launched their first spot beam satellite, they did so with the assumption that "must-carry" would part of SHIVA. On the other hand, E* was hoping it would not pass and thier first effort at spot-beam was budgeting the bandwidth on 4 locals per DMA. When must-carry became law, E* started putting the extra channels on the wing satellites. The two-dish setup was later outlawed by the FCC. During all of the legal wrangling, E* was able to launch satellites and acquire space on other satellites to allow them to broadcast all locals on a single dish.

[jeffman]

Houston we have a problem
everyone throw there HDTV's out the window


<----See Photo to left

[Alan Gordon]

There was a mention of certain states in the Northwest which I hoped meant it was spotbeams and not nationals.

So, the question is, does that mean people in the South will be getting locals before people in the Northwest, or does that mean that they will be (as another poster posted) shifting some of the Northwest HD-LIL DMAs to the SpaceWays that can reach the Northwest, and some of the other DMAs on SpaceWays to D10?

I also wonder how this affects the SD-LIL rollout...

~Alan

[Earl Bonovich]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?

I think it was something 76% of the viewing population...

[mexican-bum]

So does this mean bitrate starvation in the future on some nationals?

I suppose if they broadcast locals via conus beam and they ran out of space, but that won't happen anytime soon I suppose

[cforrest]

Well I wonder how this development is going to impact D11, since I would expect Boeing & D* will want to know what caused the problem. That way they can fix it before D11 is packed & sent to Sea-Launch in December. Hope they find a solution to the problem.

[FlyBono24]

I think it was something 76% of the viewing population...

I guess I should have read the END of the article before I posted... :lol: It said 70% of the population...

That's my problem, I stop reading halfway through... :lol:

[macdawg]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?

I wish they hurry up and bring up Norfolk VA local HD!!!!

[syphix]

TO ALL THOSE THAT KNEW OF PROBLEMS AND DIDN'T REPORT IT HERE:

Thank you! The time you gave to D* to assess the problem and determine what/how it will affect D10 is worth its weight in gold! It can be VERY tempting to report some secret information you've learned, to seem the "hero"...but the riot and chaos that would have started here would have been unbelievable. So, thank you for your patience...and if you hear anymore info...SHUT UP!! :) ;)

[FlyBono24]

I wish they hurry up and bring up Norfolk VA local HD!!!!

If not you could always watch TV at your neighbors house:
http://www.stanford.edu/~jcolwell/DR/DR99/Country.Roads47.jpeg

:D

[RobertE]

Looks like someone at D* needs to call up retention at B* (Boeing) and get some service credits. :grin:

Maybe a freebie launch of D12? :D

[VeniceDre]

TO ALL THOSE THAT KNEW OF PROBLEMS AND DIDN'T REPORT IT HERE:

Thank you! The time you gave to D* to assess the problem and determine what/how it will affect D10 is worth its weight in gold! It can be VERY tempting to report some secret information you've learned, to seem the "hero"...but the riot and chaos that would have started here would have been unbelievable. So, thank you for your patience...and if you hear anymore info...SHUT UP!! :) ;)

;)

[brewer4]

TO ALL THOSE THAT KNEW OF PROBLEMS AND DIDN'T REPORT IT HERE:

Thank you! The time you gave to D* to assess the problem and determine what/how it will affect D10 is worth its weight in gold! It can be VERY tempting to report some secret information you've learned, to seem the "hero"...but the riot and chaos that would have started here would have been unbelievable. So, thank you for your patience...and if you hear anymore info...SHUT UP!! :) ;)

I knew weeks ago and said nothing in any forum. I was more afraid of the flaming and getting banned. ;)

[BobbyK]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?

Would you call DMA 42 out in the boonies. They don't have them.

42 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News, VA 712,790 0.640

[FlyBono24]

Would you call DMA 42 out in the boonies. They don't have them.

42 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News, VA 712,790 0.640

I would have assumed that area would have had them for a while now... do they even have OTA capability, at least? Otherwise, that would suck...

[Rasputin]

There are several thousand people in NE Texas that don't get HD locals.

[generalpatton78]

I would have assumed that area would have had them for a while now... do they even have OTA capability, at least? Otherwise, that would suck...

FlyBono24 I know your trying to be funny but you seriously need to lay off the sticks crap. I'd say a majority of D* customers are in a somewhat rural area. You may not care but I can tell you thousands of people in my DMA will choose cable because they have all our locals in HD and yes that's ABC,NBC,CBS,Fox, and MYNTV. On the other end thousand of people with D* im my area will go with out local HD. I guess I should start a company doing antenna installations.

[griz]

All this talk about not having HD Locals.....we don't even have SD Locals here (DMA 170). Oddly enough, Dish does have the SD Locals, but they still aren't getting me to switch (back).

[syphix]

There's other things to consider when thinking of DMA's...

I live "in" DMA #16 (or #18??), Minneapolis-St. Paul. To say I live "in" this DMA is a joke: I live 80 miles from the cities and can't get any OTA if I tried. There's no cable here (I chose to live in the country...there's a town -- pop. 20,000 -- 10-15 miles away with cable TV & HDTV). So, I'm dependent on D* for HD locals.

And it's rather flat around here...I have no doubt that there's other DMA's (maybe even bigger ones) where because of the geography, you can live even closer to the towers and still not get OTA....and be dependent on D*/E*/cable.

So, you don't have to be living in the boonies to not get OTA and need a provider to feed you the HD locals.

[tms]

Looks like someone at D* needs to call up retention at B* (Boeing) and get some service credits. :grin:

Maybe a freebie launch of D12? :D

Now that's someone with a sense of humor....:lol: :lol: :lol: Something that many of the recent posters are lacking. Bravo-Bravo

[seminoles2425]

I would have assumed that area would have had them for a while now... do they even have OTA capability, at least? Otherwise, that would suck...

You do realize that the Norfolk, VA tv market is home to the largest naval base in the world don't you. This area is also the largest tv market in the country without a major league sports franchise.

[tms]

All this talk about not having HD Locals.....we don't even have SD Locals here (DMA 170). Oddly enough, Dish does have the SD Locals, but they still aren't getting me to switch (back).

I see your DMA and raise you 1. Utica, NY DMA 169. BTW: I'm glad to have nationals over LIL. FWIW: MUCH better coverage w/ NBC-NY

[fwlogue]

I wish they hurry up and bring up Norfolk VA local HD!!!!

I am with you there

[bonscott87]

You do realize that the Norfolk, VA tv market is home to the largest naval base in the world don't you. This area is also the largest tv market in the country without a major league sports franchise.

Not to derail the thread but that is actually incorrect. Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo, Michigan is DMA #39 and has no major league sports.

Also Harrisburg, PA at #41, Birmingham, AL at #40, West Palm Beach at #38, Greenville, SC at #36 and Hartford, CT at #28. ;)

[bonscott87]

Anyway, back to topic. Basically all this means is that it sounds like a couple spots aren't working in the Northwest. No big deal, deliver those locals via one of the Spaceway's or D11. I don't think it will really effect much in the way of HD locals and I don't think it will delay the launch of any new HD LIL markets since D* has already stated that most of any new LIL launches won't happen until 2008 after D11 is operational.

[generalpatton78]

Not to derail the thread but that is actually incorrect. Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo, Michigan is DMA #39 and has no major league sports.

Also Harrisburg, PA at #41, Birmingham, AL at #40, West Palm Beach at #38, Greenville, SC at #36 and Hartford, CT at #28. ;)

All the Auburn and Tide fans would disagree.:D

[mexican-bum]

Anyway, back to topic. Basically all this means is that it sounds like a couple spots aren't working in the Northwest. No big deal, deliver those locals via one of the Spaceway's or D11. I don't think it will really effect much in the way of HD locals and I don't think it will delay the launch of any new HD LIL markets since D* has already stated that most of any new LIL launches won't happen until 2008 after D11 is operational.

exactly, thats the way I see it:)

[syphix]

Anyway, back to topic. Basically all this means is that it sounds like a couple spots aren't working in the Northwest. No big deal, deliver those locals via one of the Spaceway's or D11. I don't think it will really effect much in the way of HD locals and I don't think it will delay the launch of any new HD LIL markets since D* has already stated that most of any new LIL launches won't happen until 2008 after D11 is operational.Correct. D* will have 4 satellites that can deliver HD locals. If none of them can reach the Northwest, we've got a problem!!

Just sounds like D* has some shuffling to do.

Question for techies, though: can spot beams be "re-aimed"? Meaning, if D10 has problems hitting the Northwest, can it focus those transponders elsewhere, or are they fixed on a location (and then D* simply can't use those beams)?

[vurbano]

I guess still no HD locals for me even though I am in DMA 42

[Ken S]

BTW...

If you're going to insult people do it correctly...

It's Styx not Sticks.

If any of the DMA want a major league franchise (or something close) build a domed stadium and the Marlins will move there.

[Jeremy W]

Question for techies, though: can spot beams be "re-aimed"?
The spot beams on D10 (and all of DirecTV's other spot beam satellites aside from Spaceway 1&2) cannot be re-aimed. Spaceway 1&2's spot beams are fully dynamic, and can be changed at any time.

[Herdfan]

E* started putting the extra channels on the wing satellites. The two-dish setup was later outlawed by the FCC.
Two dishes per se are not outlowed. D* has markets that require two dishes. The issue E* ran into was that they put all the must carry channel on the wings and the main channels on the main slots.

So customers didn't bother to get a second dish just to get all the "public access" locals and these minor stations that were only being carried due to "must carry" complained and the FCC gave in to them.

So locals can be on a second dish as long as ALL locals are on that dish.

[Mr.X]

Relax, Directv will take the rsn channel off SW1 and SW2 and put them on D10 so that everyone can enjoy them. That move will free up some space on SW1 and SW2 so they can do so more DMA.

[davring]

BTW...

If you're going to insult people do it correctly...

It's Styx not Sticks.

If any of the DMA want a major league franchise (or something close) build a domed stadium and the Marlins will move there.

Or whats left of them...after this season.

[cforrest]

Can't D* just say there is excessive rain-fade in the NW :grin: Just kidding of course. Regardless, I think D12 will have to be called up from the bullpen & prepare to get in the game eventually. As Earl said, I think, D10 can be an in-orbit back up assuming D11 works as planned after it is launched & D12 goes off without a hitch.

[richiephx]

I knew weeks ago and said nothing in any forum. I was more afraid of the flaming and getting banned. ;)

Why would anyone be flaming or ban you? I would think that if this kind of information is true then people would be interested in knowing it? Why would anyone criticize you for stating a fact?

[brewer4]

Why would anyone be flaming or ban you? I would think that if this kind of information is true then people would be interested in knowing it? Why would anyone criticize you for stating a fact?

I wish it was like that but thats not how it works unfortunately. Some folks know what I am talking about. :( Its very possible this post will be removed.

[Drew2k]

I wish it was like that but thats not how it works unfortunately. Some folks know what I am talking about. :( Its very possible this post will be removed.:confused: That's silly talk.

By the way it's very possible this post will be removed as well. For instance, I could come back and click the delete button. ;)

[brewer4]

:confused: That's silly talk.

By the way it's very possible this post will be removed as well. For instance, I could come back and click the delete button. ;)

Oh come on. You really think this is not going on? I have the threats, saved posts, lists of others on the ban list, etc. Its not just me but its happening more then you probably know.

[DufferEA]

I have a 94% on TP11

[brewer4]

I have a 94% on TP11

I got 92 in CT. Come on HD!

[richiephx]

Are you saying members on this forum aren't free to exchange ideas without editing?

[Drew2k]

Please see the 103(b) thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98441&page=1) if you want to post your TP signal strength.

[brewer4]

Are you saying members on this forum aren't free to exchange ideas without editing?

I am not saying anything else. Its up to folks to make up their mind if they think so or not. So even I will say it, please back to topic. :hurah:

[StanO]

Would you call DMA 42 out in the boonies. They don't have them.

42 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News, VA 712,790 0.640

Or Louisville, DMA #48.

[bluemoon737]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?


Well if Norfolk/Virginia Beach, Va are the boonies then that statement would be correct ;)

[computersecguy]

All this talk about not having HD Locals.....we don't even have SD Locals here (DMA 170). Oddly enough, Dish does have the SD Locals, but they still aren't getting me to switch (back).

yeah but I am sure that you are closer than the helena dma.... the only station we get is nbc and the waivers were just denied for abc and cbs... now if they would only start combining some of these dmas up here.

[bluemoon737]

If not you could always watch TV at your neighbors house:
http://www.stanford.edu/~jcolwell/DR/DR99/Country.Roads47.jpeg

:D

Let's see....population of Long Beach, Ca in 2000 = 461522
population of Virginia Beach, Va in 2000 = 425257

I guess the extra 30K+ makes Long Beach not the boonies? :rolleyes:

[bluemoon737]

I would have assumed that area would have had them for a while now... do they even have OTA capability, at least? Otherwise, that would suck...

I actually get great OTA with just a Silver Sensor in the attic...distributed to all my receivers (sans the HR10) via the SWM-8 OTA feed. However, it sure would be nice to have MPEG-4 D* HD locals as has been promised for quite some time.

[Directvlover]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?

No HD Locals from D* provided for Omaha DMA #75. However all HD channels are easily picked up via an old cheap hoop UHF antenna hidden behind my display, so it doesn't really bother me that they aren't available via the sat.

[bluemoon737]

Not to derail the thread but that is actually incorrect. Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo, Michigan is DMA #39 and has no major league sports.

Also Harrisburg, PA at #41, Birmingham, AL at #40, West Palm Beach at #38, Greenville, SC at #36 and Hartford, CT at #28. ;)



Well it's not our fault Hartford let the Whalers get away :lol:

[brewer4]

Well it's not our fault Hartford let the Whalers get away :lol:

Left + field = huh?? Where did that come from?

[bluemoon737]

Left + field = huh?? Where did that come from?

Sorry brewer...was commenting on the post about Hartford not having a major sports franchise. :)

[brewer4]

Sorry brewer...was commenting on the post about Hartford not having a major sports franchise. :)

Since you brought it up. We have national champion NCAA basketball programs and Patriots and Red Sox are only 90 min from my house. Big East Uconn football is 15 minutes away. I got great seats. Its amazing how close things are here. I actually dont miss NHL at all. I actually prefer the AHL. Its like 8-18 bucks for a game that is pretty decent and you can take your family too. Means more money for beer. The stick handling is not as good but I just dont have time or money to give to pro sports anyways. I prefer to watch in HD on TV. Hey isnt that what these threads are about? :D

[gully_foyle]

"However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected."

And this could also mean that their unannounced additional HD local programming (that they hadn't quite planned for because "these things happen") won't be announced anytime soon. But the stuff they announced will mostly happen.

[bluemoon737]

Since you brought it up. We have national champion NCAA basketball programs and Patriots and Red Sox are only 90 min from my house. Big East Uconn football is 15 minutes away. I got great seats. Its amazing how close things are here. I actually dont miss NHL at all. I actually prefer the AHL. Its like 8-18 bucks for a game that is pretty decent and you can take your family too. Means more money for beer. The stick handling is not as good but I just dont have time or money to give to pro sports anyways. I prefer to watch in HD on TV. Hey isnt that what these threads are about? :D


Oh same thing here for the Admirals...very cheap (comparitively)...just the venue is not all that great. Now when I was stationed in Charleston, SC...that was the place for minor league sports. The Stingrays (ECHL) were awesome to watch...first rate coliseum and great hockey. The minor league ballpark was a pretty nice place too.

[LameLefty]

Guys, guys . . . let's leave the "my town is better than your town" arguments on the school playground. :lol:

What we NEED to consider is the actual implications of the issue. Okay, so as others have said, D10 probably wasn't going to add locals immediately anyway. Assuming the issue isn't a DESIGN problem but instead a manufacturing issue or something that occurred during launch, D11 will be inspected, a probably-minor fix implemented and it will be launched in the Dec/Jan timeframe (if SeaLaunch return to flight goes well before hand). I suspect Boeing just got a go-ahead order on D12 to plan for a launch around 3Q '08 and DirecTV and Boeing are pulling favors to get it launched. In fact, I SEEM to recall somewhere that DirecTV made unspecified backup arrangements after SeaLaunch's incident last February. Perhaps if SeaLaunch RTF goes well, DirecTV can still utilize those contingent launch plans for D12. More to the point, ordering D12 as a "ground spare" in the first place is very unusual - makes me wonder if DirecTV didn't know well in advance that this configuration of the common satellite bus might represent some heightened level of technical risk.

[DarkAudit]

Well if Norfolk/Virginia Beach, Va are the boonies then that statement would be correct ;)

I was there from '91-'93. It's correct.

Mayport/Jax wasn't all that better. :lol:

[Dolly]

Well I guess it goes back to where there's smoke there is fire. We kept hearing there were problems, but I tried to believe those were only rumors. I hope it isn't too bad :angel:

[bluemoon737]

Red Sox are only 90 min from my house.

Of course if you're in the Hartford area the Yankees are also only about 90 min away. (sorry, couldn't resist) ;)

I was stationed in Groton for 3 years back in the late 80's.

[SteveEJ]

I was hoping that all would be well even though I heard/read a few rumors as well. Being out of range of HD locals OTA we really wanted to see DMA 59 lite up this year. I guess we will have to see if any shifting of sat loads, etc takes place to compensate. Dynamic SW1/2 satellites could be used as gap fillers and static birds used for areas SW1/2 are doing now.. Just hoping I guess..

Steve

[MikeR]

More to the point, ordering D12 as a "ground spare" in the first place is very unusual - makes me wonder if DirecTV didn't know well in advance that this configuration of the common satellite bus might represent some heightened level of technical risk.

I wish we had some experts like the folks over at nasaspaceflights forum. I'm an engineer, but not at that level..:(

The 702 configuration is new for Boeing, correct?

[LameLefty]

I wish we had some experts like the folks over at nasaspaceflights forum. I'm an engineer, but not at that level..:(

*cough* Well, ahem . . . we do. :) Or pretty close anyway.

The 702 configuration is new for Boeing, correct?

I think THIS configuration is new, but the 702 bus itself isn't THAT new, I don't believe.

[Bob Coxner]

You do realize that the Norfolk, VA tv market is home to the largest naval base in the world don't you. This area is also the largest tv market in the country without a major league sports franchise.

Raleigh-Durham is #28 and doesn't have a pro franchise. Hartford/New Haven is #29 and no pros. Greenville/Spartanburg is #36 and no pros. Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo is #39 and no pros. Birmingham #40 and none.

Still, you do have a complaint. :-)

[DarkAudit]

Raleigh-Durham is #28 and doesn't have a pro franchise. Hartford/New Haven is #29 and no pros. Greenville/Spartanburg is #36 and no pros. Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo is #39 and no pros. Birmingham #40 and none.

Still, you do have a complaint. :-)

Aren't the Hurricanes in Raleigh?

[MikeR]

*cough* Well, ahem . . . we do. :) Or pretty close anyway.

Any thoughts on potential causes for the "lack of range" for only some of the spotbeams? I know, not much info to go on, but it seems worrisome that it could be a design problem, not with the beam itself, but wider in scope.....

[sraider]

So will Dtv get a refund on their satelite if it all don't work?

[c152driver]

Very interesting. If they don't expect their ability to deliver locals is affected, I wonder why they are mentioning it at all? I supposed it is a CYA in case there are further problems.

The geek in me is curious what exactly is going on.

I also wonder if DirecTV gets a pro-rated refund if the satellite has diminished capabilites?

[LameLefty]

Any thoughts on potential causes for the "lack of range" for only some of the spotbeams? I know, not much info to go on, but it seems worrisome that it could be a design problem, not with the beam itself, but wider in scope.....

Not yet. When I used to work in the field, I was more of a nuts&bolts spacecraft systems engineer, not an electrical/RF guy. I am curious what Tom has to say about it while I ponder for a day or two.

[c152driver]

I wonder if the problem is specific to the spot beam "subsystem" or if it is a more general problem. For example, if there is a power problem that will prevent them from powering all of the spot beam transponders, is it a situation that could further degrade and eventually affect D10s ability to deliver national programming?

[harsh]

So ultimately, it may mean that they don't have the capacity for 1,500 locals... Or they won't have it until something is fixed, or swapped or what.They may have to retain more of Spaceway 1 than they had originally anticipated. I'm not sure whether to read that this is an indication that transponders have failed beyond the backup capability or not.

[MikeR]

Not yet. When I used to work in the field, I was more of a nuts&bolts spacecraft systems engineer, not an electrical/RF guy. I am curious what Tom has to say about it while I ponder for a day or two.

Think well Lame. While disappointing, I'm certain many are interested in the root cause (or an educated hypothesis). I'd lean towards a systems problem, as it appears that more than one spot beam is affected. Not a good scenario for the other spot beams though...
Edit: I"m wondering the same c152

[gully_foyle]

Well if Norfolk/Virginia Beach, Va are the boonies then that statement would be correct ;)
Depends what you mean by "HD capability." In the boonies called "Los Angeles", we have only 5 stations, missing 2 "VHF" locals plus 3 PBS stations. One of those missing locals carries an awful lot of Dodgers and Laker games....

Waiting for SWB, since the new sat breaks OTA diplexing.

[harsh]

If you're going to insult people do it correctly...

It's Styx not Sticks.If you're going to correct someone, do it correctly. Styx is a river between Earth and the Underworld according to Greek Mythology. Sticks is one of the nicknames given to decidedly rural areas.

There used to be a place in Oregon named Sticks. That was back before the Spotted Owl. Of course we also have such creative names as Boring and Drain.

[Dolly]

If you're going to correct someone, do it correctly. Styx is a river between Earth and the Underworld according to Greek Mythology. Sticks is one of the nicknames given to decidedly rural areas.

There used to be a place in Oregon named Sticks. That was back before the Spotted Owl. Of course we also have such creative names as Boring and Drain.
In my area we have some names I wouldn't even post on the Forum :eek2:

[harsh]

I suspect Boeing just got a go-ahead order on D12 to plan for a launch around 3Q '08 and DirecTV and Boeing are pulling favors to get it launched.D12 in its D10-like configuration can only replace birds at 99W or 103W. To replace anything else would require a complete refit with Ku downlink equipment.

D12 would appear to be strictly a spare.

[LameLefty]

D12 in its D10-like configuration can only replace birds at 99W or 103W. To replace anything else would require a complete refit with Ku downlink equipment.

D12 would appear to be strictly a spare.

Um, yes. Exactly. E.g., launch it as a replacement for D10 and shift D10 to the role of limited on-orbit spare. Just like I suggested.

[harsh]

In my area we have some names I wouldn't even post on the Forum :eek2:We have some of those too. Most of the derogatory native American names have already been replaced. I think half.com is now back to being Halfway, Oregon.

[harsh]

Um, yes. Exactly. E.g., launch it as a replacement for D10 and shift D10 to the role of limited on-orbit spare. Just like I suggested.I didn't gather that from your post.

I guess that we'll have to find out where D11 is in the production phase to know if D12 is anywhere near being ready.

[LameLefty]

If it turns out to be a physical issue with the spacecraft, that's actually more encouraging to me than an internal systems problem with the spacecraft processors or RF equipment. Physical issues can be caused by many things, not the least of which is unusual launch loads or vibrations. With any luck this will be traced to some anomaly with the Proton/Breeze-M launch and the D11 launch on SeaLaunch's Zenit will be unaffected. Without eve better luck, it will be traced to something fairly mundane like a batch of bad fasteners or a subcomponent that missed an acceptance test somewhere but the paperwork was never completed - something that's easy to fix.

Without such luck, the issue will be traced to a design flaw in the implementation of the reflector that cannot be remedied absent excess impact to spacecraft mass or power requirements, and the entire D10/11/12 config thrown out. At least the D12 spacecraft bus is on-order and presumably not too far along to modify - if nothing else the configuration can be changed and it can be launched with any necessary fixes in place.

[Bill Johnson]

I wonder if in Post #1 Scott may have left out an important part of the D* press release reporting this -- shall we call it -- anomaly? I reprint the quote below and a quick search could find it in only one other release, a July 31 one reporting additional TiVO features. Forgive me, but the wording tops anything I've seen written by any bureaucrats during my many years of govt. service. Sheeeshh!

This says to me you believe anything in this D* release at your own peril.

CAUTIONARY STATEMENT CONCERNING FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS

NOTE: This release may include or incorporate by reference certain statements that we believe are, or may be considered to be, "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of various provisions of the Securities Act of 1933 and of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. These forward-looking statements generally can be identified by use of statements that include phrases such as "believe," "expect," "estimate," "anticipate," "intend," "plan," "foresee," "project" or other similar words or phrases. Similarly, statements that describe our objectives, plans or goals also are forward-looking statements. All of these forward-looking statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from historical results or from those expressed or implied by the relevant forward-looking statement. Such risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to: government action; technological risk; the success and timeliness of satellite launches; in-orbit performance of satellites, including technical anomalies; loss of uninsured satellites; and supplier performance. We urge you to consider these factors carefully in evaluating the forward-looking statements.

[kaysersoze]

TO ALL THOSE THAT KNEW OF PROBLEMS AND DIDN'T REPORT IT HERE:

Thank you! The time you gave to D* to assess the problem and determine what/how it will affect D10 is worth its weight in gold! It can be VERY tempting to report some secret information you've learned, to seem the "hero"...but the riot and chaos that would have started here would have been unbelievable. So, thank you for your patience...and if you hear anymore info...SHUT UP!! :) ;)

+1

[MnGuy]

I wonder if in Post #1 Scott may have left out an important part of the D* press release reporting this -- shall we call it -- anomaly? I reprint the quote below and a quick search could find it in only one other release, a July 31 one reporting additional TiVO features. Forgive me, but the wording tops anything I've seen written by any bureaucrats during my many years of govt. service. Sheeeshh!

This says to me you believe anything in this D* release at your own peril.

No. This is standard language for companies making forward-looking statements that will be read by the investment community. You don't want to be sued by some group of investors when you make claims that don't come to fruition due to unforseen circumstances.
That's all this is.

[c152driver]

I wonder if in Post #1 Scott may have left out an important part of the D* press release reporting this -- shall we call it -- anomaly? I reprint the quote below and a quick search could find it in only one other release, a July 31 one reporting additional TiVO features. Forgive me, but the wording tops anything I've seen written by any bureaucrats during my many years of govt. service. Sheeeshh!

This says to me you believe anything in this D* release at your own peril.

It looks like the standard boiler-plate disclaimer text to me. I've seen and heard this before from other publicly traded companies.

[Bill Johnson]

No. This is standard language for companies making forward-looking statements that will be read by the investment community. You dpn't want to be sued by some group of investors when you make claims that don't come to fruition due to unforseen circumstances.
That's all this is.
You may be correct, but why wasn't it in other D* releases potentially as much forward looking if not more than this -- for example those discussing the then upcoming D10 launch and all the good things in the Fall.

Also, the next to last sentence is kind of frightening for all of us hoping hoping that MPEG4 would be a new day dawning for national HD PQ for D*!

[MikeR]

This says to me you believe anything in this D* release at your own peril.


Not a big deal....basically these are projections based on our best knowledge, but we are not accountable/liable for these statements.

[gully_foyle]

I wonder if in Post #1 Scott may have left out an important part of the D* press release reporting this -- shall we call it -- anomaly? I reprint the quote below and a quick search could find it in only one other release, a July 31 one reporting additional TiVO features. Forgive me, but the wording tops anything I've seen written by any bureaucrats during my many years of govt. service. Sheeeshh!

This says to me you believe anything in this D* release at your own peril.

It was written by government bureaucrats. Worse, they were employed by Congress. That's the Safe Harbor language that allows you to talk about the future without being criminally liable for it not coming true.

[Bill Johnson]

Not a big deal....basically these are projections based on our best knowledge, but we are not accountable/liable for these statements.
I understand, but again why specifically only in this press release which seems pretty cut and dried on the impact D* anticipates; whereas it does not appear in other earlier major D* releases on really huge things D* anticipates down the road?

[Jeremy W]

I understand, but again why specifically only in this press release which seems pretty cut and dried on the impact D* anticipates; whereas it does not appear in other earlier major D* releases on really huge things D* anticipates down the road?
I am just pulling this out of my semi-educated behind, but it could be due to the very sensitive nature of what's going on right now. When a publically traded company has issues with a piece of 100+ million dollar equipment, they have to be extremely careful with everything they say and do. I can guarantee you that PR received VERY close scrutiny from the legal department before they let it out. They just want to make sure everything is covered.

[jautor]

I understand, but again why specifically only in this press release which seems pretty cut and dried on the impact D* anticipates; whereas it does not appear in other earlier major D* releases on really huge things D* anticipates down the road?

Because this wasn't a press release, but a financial disclosure... Press releases are marketing material, this is an investment document. And yes, definitely financial release boilerplate. Nothing to see here... :)

Jeff

[Bill Johnson]

Because this wasn't a press release, but a financial disclosure...
This is a good point, but the only problem is it's listed as a PR on D* website. And going all the way back to 2002, earlier releases listed below it in order, discuss money bigtime, planned satellite launches, anticipated mergers, etc., you name it! And none have this cautionary statement except this one & the one about TiVO!

I won't belabor it more, but it looks extraordinary to me!

[MikeR]

This is a good point, but the only problem is it's listed as a PR on D* website. And going all the way back to 2002, earlier releases listed below it in order, discuss money bigtime, planned satellite launches, anticipated mergers, etc., you name it! And none have this cautionary statement except this one & the one about TiVO!

I won't belabor it more, but it looks extraordinary to me!
Thanks Jeremy ;)

I see a few "Directv" releases here....


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBS_en___US213&q=but+are+not+limited+to%3a+government+action%3b+t echnological+risk%3b+the+success+and+timeliness+of +satellite+launches%3b+in%2dorbit+performance+of+s atellites

[DChristmann]

I actually get great OTA with just a Silver Sensor in the attic...distributed to all my receivers (sans the HR10) via the SWM-8 OTA feed. However, it sure would be nice to have MPEG-4 D* HD locals as has been promised for quite some time.

Just out of curiosity, why?

I get my HD locals over the air here and I can't imagine that they'd be any better off the satellite. Am I missing something?

[Jeremy W]

Just out of curiosity, why?
Quality is pretty much the same, and they take up less space on the hard drive.

[Greg Alsobrook]

can't they just send a team of highly trained monkeys up there to fix it?

[jimmyv2000]

Send up the Space shuttle with a D* engineer ad FIX IT:D

[DChristmann]

Send up the Space shuttle with a D* engineer ad FIX IT:D

The problem is that all the DirecTV satellites are geostationary and orbit 22,000 miles above earth. Meanwhile, the shuttle orbits a few hundred miles above earth.

[vertigo235]

The problem is that all the DirecTV satellites are geostationary and orbit 22,000 miles above earth. Meanwhile, the shuttle orbits a few hundred miles above earth.

He wasn't serious...

[FlyBono24]

FlyBono24 I know your trying to be funny but you seriously need to lay off the sticks crap. I'd say a majority of D* customers are in a somewhat rural area. You may not care but I can tell you thousands of people in my DMA will choose cable because they have all our locals in HD and yes that's ABC,NBC,CBS,Fox, and MYNTV. On the other end thousand of people with D* im my area will go with out local HD. I guess I should start a company doing antenna installations.

Obviously I was joking about that area being in "the boonies". I've had relatives living in that area for some time now.

It comes as a shock to me that an area with that kind of population doesn't even have their locals through D* yet, that's why I asked if there is any OTA coverage at all.

[FlyBono24]

Let's see....population of Long Beach, Ca in 2000 = 461522
population of Virginia Beach, Va in 2000 = 425257

I guess the extra 30K+ makes Long Beach not the boonies? :rolleyes:

Settle down dude, it was a joke!! :lol:

[wilbur_the_goose]

I wonder if this will affect D*'s decision to remove OTA capability from the HR21.

Fortunately, there aren't many DMAs in the Pacific NW. Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Eugene, Medford, Klamath Falls, Bend, Boise, Tri-Cities, WA. I think that's it.

[FlyBono24]

So will Dtv get a refund on their satelite if it all don't work?

Only with the original receipt, and in the original box.


Unless they got it at Wal-Mart... then you could just put a bunch of bricks in the box and return it for store credit. :lol:

[ProfLonghair]

Only with the original receipt, and in the original box.


Unless they got it at Wal-Mart... then you could just put a bunch of bricks in the box and return it for store credit. :lol:

I thnk they cut off the UPC for the rebate, tho, so too bad.

[mcbeevee]

I thought most of the country already had local HD capability, except for a few pockets out in the "boonies"?

I don't have HD locals, and my DMA has a population of over half million. Guess I'm in the boonies! :rolleyes:

[macdawg]

You do realize that the Norfolk, VA tv market is home to the largest naval base in the world don't you. This area is also the largest tv market in the country without a major league sports franchise.

SO TRUE!
I hope they get them up before I move back down that way from Wash DC.
Yes Im in the Navy. :D

[macdawg]

I actually get great OTA with just a Silver Sensor in the attic...distributed to all my receivers (sans the HR10) via the SWM-8 OTA feed. However, it sure would be nice to have MPEG-4 D* HD locals as has been promised for quite some time.

Master Chief
I hope they are up before I move back down that way.

[MAVERICK007]

Bet Norfolk/Va Beach will have HD locals by the end of the year :)

[hankmack]

End of the year sounds like end of the year.

[Robbiee19]

Master Chief
I hope they are up before I move back down that way.
Hey Retired Master Chief here. Hello fellow brother!

[leww37334]

I have a question, I thought spotbeams were also used to carry RSN's, is it possible RSN HD plans may be affected?

[markrubi]

National HD channels are very, very close!

Now instead of soon they are very, very close. :lol:

[oakwcj]

I have a question, I thought spotbeams were also used to carry RSN's, is it possible RSN HD plans may be affected?

The RSN's are going to become CONUS, so the spot beam problems should be irrelevant.

[NoMax]

Could it be possible that because of the problem, some areas of the country may not receive all the new national HD channels? Could this be why some get all zeros on 103b and others have 1 or 2 transponders active? :confused:

[cnmsales]

Could it be possible that because of the problem, some areas of the country may not receive all the new national HD channels? Could this be why some get all zeros on 103b and others have 1 or 2 transponders active? :confused:


No, all national HD channels will be on Conus. If you are getting 0's its possible you dont have the BBC's installed, or your dish is not properly alligned, this is assuming you have the 5lnb.

[Draconis]

I do not think that that the Locals or National feeds will be affected. I know that DIRECTV is transmitting the HD RSN's via spotbeam (a CSR told me) so I'm thinking that the HD RSN's are going to be the ones that are affected.

Good thing I'm NOT a sports fan.

There I go speculating again...

[MrDad0330]

As of 10:30am, I am seeing 98 on T11. I am not sure what that even means. I am surprised that D admitted a problem at all. I am hoping we will see HD from D10 by the 19th. Its not that far away. I know that D annouced that D10 would have extra or spare spot beams to cover some failures. The fact that those extra spots wont cover the loss, I would think the spot beam problem could be more serious than indicated For me, I could never get anyone at D or Boeing to confirm they had full solar panel deployment. Those panels are huge and have to unfold over and over again. If one didnt totally deploy, there could be power issues. But who knows. At least D admitted there is a problem with the spots..

[Herdfan]

Following up on what Lefty posted, does anyone here remember the delay of 7S?

The launch of D* 7S was delay 6 months because of a problem deploying the solar array on Estrela do Sul which was a similar Loral 1300 satellite.

I hope they can find the problem and it is simple to fix or D*11 is not going up anytime soon.

[NoMax]

No, all national HD channels will be on Conus. If you are getting 0's its possible you dont have the BBC's installed, or your dish is not properly alligned, this is assuming you have the 5lnb.

No, I have good signal on 1 transponder, but I'm not sure that everyone across the country has it too. . . .

[2Guysfootball]

I wonder like everyone else living in New England but outside of the Boston DMA will this change the NESN HD roll out??

It is a 24/7 HD feed so I hoping not.:confused:

[bonscott87]

I do not think that that the Locals or National feeds will be affected. I know that DIRECTV is transmitting the HD RSN's via spotbeam (a CSR told me) so I'm thinking that the HD RSN's are going to be the ones that are affected.

Good thing I'm NOT a sports fan.

There I go speculating again...

It's widely known that the RSNs are coming *off* the spotbeams and going CONUS (national beams).

The only thing a spotbeam problem on D10 means is that they can't put as many HD locals markets on D10 as they were planning on. Spaceway 1, Spaceway 2 and D11 will pick up the slack.

And D12 can be launched as well and put in the same spot at 103 with D10 and they can share the load thus regaining the lost spotbeam(s) and providing in orbit spare/redundancy (which they do a lot of at 101 and 119 already so it's nothing new).

[ShiningBengal]

broadcasting locals as national channels reduces the limit of national channels they can broadcast:(

I don't see that as necessarily true. There are now 3 birds up there that have the capability of spotbeaming MPEG4 to local channels. If it is simply that there is an area of the country that cannot be reached with 103b's spotbeams, it seems entirely possible that some of the existing spotbeams on 99b and/or 103a could be redeployed on 103a, freeing up the necessary transponders there to be used for what had been planned with 103b.

I live in Minneapolis, and our spot beam is on 99b at TP 3. If getting to the northwest states is not possible with 103b, it may well be possible on 99b if the transponder were freed up by moving Minneapolis' (as an example) to 103b.

I doubt that this situation is a serious, unresolvable problem. But why fret over it? It has been stated unequivocally by DirecTV that the problem will not affect the roll out of the planned new national HD channels. The sky is not falling.

[Sixto]

I live in Minneapolis, and our spot beam is on 99b at TP 3. How did you figure out that your locals are on TP3?

Haven't seen a site or way to map HD locals to a particular transponder number.

[saryon]

How did you figure out that your locals are on TP3?

Haven't seen a site or way to map HD locals to a particular transponder number.

Wait for a good rainstorm ;) My locals are the last channels to rain-fade, do a signal level when they're all that's left, viola, you know what sat/tp your locals come from :)

[keithtd]

but it should just hurt the people without their locals right?


And the saga continues for DMA 42. We are the "just hurt the people without" since "D" announced us LAST year to get HD locals. This is BS!

[houskamp]

Also remember they have some "spares" on board so they could fire up a national spare to cover a spot beam..

[elric]

What a bummer that they are having issues with the spot beam. If it was functioning correctly from the begining I bet we would already be watching some new HD.

[georgecostanza]

As of 10:30am, I am seeing 98 on T11. I am not sure what that even means. I am surprised that D admitted a problem at all. I am hoping we will see HD from D10 by the 19th. Its not that far away. I know that D annouced that D10 would have extra or spare spot beams to cover some failures. The fact that those extra spots wont cover the loss, I would think the spot beam problem could be more serious than indicated For me, I could never get anyone at D or Boeing to confirm they had full solar panel deployment. Those panels are huge and have to unfold over and over again. If one didnt totally deploy, there could be power issues. But who knows. At least D admitted there is a problem with the spots..

It's not the solar panels.

[joed32]

You do realize that the Norfolk, VA tv market is home to the largest naval base in the world don't you. This area is also the largest tv market in the country without a major league sports franchise.

Is that where Vurbano lives? If so that could be the reason.

[ShiningBengal]

How did you figure out that your locals are on TP3?

Haven't seen a site or way to map HD locals to a particular transponder number.

Because only TP 3 lights up (100 signal strength) on 99b, and 103a doesn't light up at all on any transponders. Occasionally on 99b, TP 1 shows up for a while, and once in a while TP 2 lights up at 20 signal strength. Only 3 is consistantly lit up and it is consistantly at 100 signal strength.

Didn't take rocket science to figure out which one was for Minneapolis.:D

[LameLefty]

Because only TP 3 lights up (100 signal strength) on 99b, and 103a doesn't light up at all on any transponders. Occasionally on 99b, TP 1 shows up for a while, and once in a while TP 2 lights up at 20 signal strength. Only 3 is consistantly lit up and it is consistantly at 100 signal strength.

Didn't take rocket science to figure out which one was for Minneapolis.:D

You're lucky! On 99(b), I've got:

94 98 95 0 95 98

So I'm guessing Nashville locals are on either tp 2 or 6. Unfortunately I've never checked in a rain storm to confirm that.

[Sixto]

Didn't take rocket science to figure out which one was for Minneapolis.:DFunny ... thought someone had broken the HD transponder code :)

My 99 are: 96 94 94 89 96 89 ... so it's been hard to pinpoint, but thinking TP1 or TP5 for NY.

[mrrydogg]

Well if there is a problem they still should be able to go live with the national rollout right?

I mean if some cities don't get their new local HD channels, thats ok. It can be worked on.

But in the meantime we can all enjoy the national channels.

[Jeremy W]

Well if there is a problem they still should be able to go live with the national rollout right?
Yes, the HD rollout is fine.

[orrelse]

I wish they hurry up and bring up Norfolk VA local HD!!!!

NO KIDDING. This is getting really old relying on the stupid OTA reception.

[cforrest]

Worst case scenario, there is always Cable for local HD.

[kenglish]

Best case scenario, there is always OTA for local HD.

[donshan]

From what I heard yesterday, they were having problems on Wednesday during testing with D10. It wasn't doing what it was supposed and the only way to fix it was to bring it down. Which, of course, wasn't going to happen. There was a mention of certain states in the Northwest which I hoped meant it was spotbeams and not nationals.

Your post caught my attention since I am in the Northwest ( and thanks for the info).:)

I am wondering if the problem is one of coverage, such as not being able to aim spot beams towards the Northwest while also getting good Conus coverage, or if it is an issue reducing the total number of spot beams than can be operated at the same time, such as an electrical power distribution problem. If it is a total system problem, I think it is possible to get some information on which markets may not get HD locals from D10 by examining the the list of Local HD channels here on DBStalk sorted by DMA:

http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_LIL_DMA.html

On the right side of this list HD local availability is listed as . "Available", "Late 2007", "Not yet", and "Not Available".

The DirecTV statement discusses the cities listed as "available". It would seem to me that those listed as "Not yet" on this DMA list were probably next on the priority list to receive HD locals on D10, with some delayed for D11 . In general D* has followed a pattern of providing HD locals to the largest DMAs first, with some exceptions where D* probably has a lot of subs or where local station issues may affect things. The DMAs marked "not available" would have been scheduled for HD locals on D11 or not at all in some small DMAs. The original D* plan of 1500 HD locals was to provide local HD coverage to over 90 percent of the population.

It was orginally announced that D10 would add about 75 more cities to the HD locals served. The last "not yet" on this list occurs at DMA 141 "Medford-Klamath Falls, OR" If D10 had provided 75 more cities you get near the bottom DMAs listed as "not yet". Several other small Northwest DMAs are also near the the bottom of those marked "not yet". However a number of other DMAs outside the Northwest are also near the bottom of the "not yet" list.

This leads me to an optimistic conclusion. This spot beam issue moves "making the cut" line higher up the DMA list. Some of the lower priority DMAs are going to have to wait until 2008, but all the National channels announced are coming and the a number of those cities whose DMA rank is nearer the top the "not yets" stand a good chance of still getting their HD locals. In 2008 many more DMAs bypassed for now will get their HD locals with a successful launch of D11 .:D

Edit: BTW I am in a small DMA, but we get all four of the network HD channels, plus the PBS national HD channel ( HD 24/7) via OTA so I am fine whatever happens.

[hdtvfan0001]

Worse case scenario (if they cannot address the problem satisfactorily) is a delay in some HD local channels. That is important to those locations, but in the big picture, with 85% of the major markets covered, it could be alot worse.

[Jason Whiddon]

I am not saying anything else. Its up to folks to make up their mind if they think so or not. So even I will say it, please back to topic. :hurah:

This thread is great. Many, including the OP of this thread busted on Scott G about integrity and his bad sources, and he was right all along.

:lol:

[LameLefty]

This thread is great. Many, including the OP of this thread busted on Scott G about integrity and his bad sources, and he was right all along.

:lol:

No, he was overstating the problem. That is most certainly NOT "right all along." In fact, since Directv has never planned to use D10 primarily for locals (at least not for the first 3 - 6 months), it was literally making a mountain out of a mole hill, especially with the spare capacity on Spaceway 1 and 2.

[Jason Whiddon]

No, he was overstating the problem. That is most certainly NOT "right all along." In fact, since Directv has never planned to use D10 primarily for locals (at least not for the first 3 - 6 months), it was literally making a mountain out of a mole hill, especially with the spare capacity on Spaceway 1 and 2.

Spin it how you like.

This was the third chance I gave this site, things just keep getting worse. Deletion runs rampant and people just arent very nice here.

Later!

[LameLefty]

Spin it how you like.

This was the third chance I gave this site, things just keep getting worse. Deletion runs rampant and people just arent very nice here.

Later!

It's not spin. It's truth.

[jacmyoung]

All Scott said was he had heard some problem with D10 from a few of his sources, and he kept it quiet for a while then said it here.

How is it an overstatement than D* saying the same on their site?

Admit it his sources are now confirmed, some of the people who claimed to have good sources did not have that info as he did, end of the story. That is not to say Scott has more resources than others, but on this issue alone most of you are eating crow now.

As far as HD rollout, I wish D* the best because D*'s success means E* must compete also, good for me since by the end of the year my contract with E* is over, I'd hate to have only one option to consider.

But if D10's problem turns into an insurance claim, it is possible the HD rollout can be further delayed even if the CONUS beams are all good. They probably don't want to give an impression that all is normal and D10 is beaming HDs all over as planned, that diminishes the weight of their damage claim. Just a possibility.

[LameLefty]

All Scott said was he had heard some problem with D10 from a few of his sources, and he kept it quiet for a while then said it here.


That's hardly all he said. Go back and re-read that whole thread. He overstated the matter, blowing it way out of proportion to reality, strictly in an effort to boost traffic to his site. Which, I might add, seems to have worked well.

[MikeR]

but on this issue alone most of you are eating crow now.

As far as HD rollout, I wish D* the best because D*'s success means E* must compete also, good for me since by the end of the year my contract with E* is over, I'd hate to have only one option to consider.

But if D10's problem turns into an insurance claim, it is possible the HD rollout can be further delayed even if the CONUS beams are all good. They probably don't want to give an impression that all is normal and D10 is beaming HDs all over as planned, that diminishes the weight of their damage claim. Just a possibility.

It wasn't so much the message, but the delivery. IMO, Scott comes off as arrogant and whiny at the same time. No crow eating here, no matter who has the inside information, I just want to see my HD channels. Too bad Scott appears to be more interested in increasing his site's membership through one upmanship. So be it...

As far as the insurance claims, greater damage will be done longterm by delaying the rollout, than any potential benefit of having the situation appear worse than it is. Facts are facts...something didn't work quite right, Boeing may be responsible, even if the other 98% works well..;)

[LameLefty]

Facts are facts...something didn't work quite right, Boeing may be responsible, even if the other 98% works well..;)

Very true. Then again, they may not be. It might be the fault of the launcher - after all, the very next Proton/Breeze launch failed a couple weeks ago. It's conceivable that the vehicle had unexpected vibrations or oscillations outside the prescribed and contracted launch requirements. These things DO happen. It might also be the fault of rough handling by ILS prior to or during vehicle mating. The Apollo 13 SM LOX tank explosion was traced back to a drop several years before by a contractor, combined with a specification change that was never fully documented and complied with. It almost cost three men their lives and did result in one of only seven manned missions to the moon failing to achieve its goal. If it's a contractor problem, it's ultimately Boeing's fault still. If it's ILS's fault, it's not.

The fact is, however, that Boeing is one of the largest manufacturers of satellite vehicles in the world and due to market consolidation, there are few suppliers to compete. They are also contracted to produce two more vehicles of similar configuration, one of which should be due for delivery any time now. There is LOTS of incentive by all parties to figure out the issue and fix it, pronto, regardless of cost. Contract adjustments will come, but not at the expense of destroying working relationships between all the parties.

THAT'S the reality, not Scott's web-based rumor-mongering and contentiousness.

[MrDad0330]

OK, if its not the solar panels and just some spot beam failures then I feel better, but i feel bad for the markets that will now be delayed getting their locals in HD. I do wonder what type of charge back D can now make on Boeing for not delivering it a 100% healthy bird? Now, lets see this semi damaged sat fire up in the coming days and ease our pain. Pleeaassseeee D, lite it up...

[MrDad0330]

Lame,
I suppose they would have telemitry from D10 as to how much vibration it underwent. If it was beyond levels acceptable then ILS would be responsible and actually Boeing and D probably had their fingers crossed all this time that damage didnt occur. It is a tricky science

[rkjg24]

I wonder if this will affect D*'s decision to remove OTA capability from the HR21.

Fortunately, there aren't many DMAs in the Pacific NW. Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Eugene, Medford, Klamath Falls, Bend, Boise, Tri-Cities, WA. I think that's it.

Well, considering where I moved, I fall into the Medford area. lol.

Anywho, this is very interesting. I'm interested to see how this will affect things.

Oh, and is it a bad time to say that back in OKC, we had HD locals?

*runs*

[jacksonm30354]

I thought D* plan was to offer HD locals in ALL DMAs, not 90% of the population. I believe I read there are 1400 tv stations in the US, so capacity of 1500 would cover that.

[jacksonm30354]

As far as Norfolk goes, maybe there is no current spotbeam over the area? I recall that WRAL out of Raleigh didn't want to agree to be carried because it would only be available in 75% of it's viewing area. As Charlotte and the Triad have HD locals, that 25% not covered is either to the NE,E, or SE of Raleigh. Norfolk is NE of Raleigh.

Maybe D10 will correct that.

[jacmyoung]

That's hardly all he said. Go back and re-read that whole thread. He overstated the matter, blowing it way out of proportion to reality, strictly in an effort to boost traffic to his site. Which, I might add, seems to have worked well.

What thread? Granted I don't follow D* threads as much on here, all I read what he said here was he heard his sources saying D10 had problem for two weeks until he disclosed here, what else did he say?

If he was beating the issue on his own site, I don't care, he has the right to do whatever there, but this is DBStalk, why you are here not there discussing this issue.

As far as insurance claim, I recall E* had a similar thing with E4, they made a point of it ended up being a crippled spare in the insurance claim. Granted E4 was seriously crippled and E* did not have any deadline to beat at the time. And E4 actually went on to serve a side slot very well, which became a point of contention in the insurance dispute. How much do you want to bet when it comes to such financial implication, D* will protect its own interest before trying to bring you HDs a month earlier?

Noticed in this latest press release, D* did not say 70 HDs by the end of Q3, only 100 HDs by the end of the year. While I don't want to read too much into anything, denying such possibility outright is also without logic.

D* may very well release all the promised HDs on the 19th or even sooner, that does not diminish the fact that their marketing tactic ran a great risk, consider the uncertain nature of this business, or any business for that matter.

[LameLefty]

What thread? Granted I don't follow D* threads as much on here, all I read what he said here was he heard his sources saying D10 had problem for two weeks until he disclosed here, what else did he say?

I'm not going to boost site traffic for him any further. Go to his site and search for it. He was pretty juvenile in his language and his conclusions.

[rkjg24]

Looks like someone at D* needs to call up retention at B* (Boeing) and get some service credits. :grin:

Maybe a freebie launch of D12? :D

Oh, and +5

[bjflynn04]

As far as Norfolk goes, maybe there is no current spotbeam over the area? I recall that WRAL out of Raleigh didn't want to agree to be carried because it would only be available in 75% of it's viewing area. As Charlotte and the Triad have HD locals, that 25% not covered is either to the NE,E, or SE of Raleigh. Norfolk is NE of Raleigh.

Maybe D10 will correct that.

I remember WRAL had a story about this back in Feb. and they said D* had plan to have a Spot beam in place to cover the entire DMA by September.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1185822/

[Dolly]

I remember WRAL had a story about this back in Feb. and they said D* had plan to have a Spot beam in place to cover the entire DMA by September.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1185822/
Well if the Spot beams aren't working they certainly can't do this now. But things are hard on a company like D. I think that is why they try to keep things as secret as possible. Because they are D***** if they do and D*****, if they don't. The public wants information and if D doesn't give that to them the public is upset. On the other hand if D gives out information that turns out to be incorrect even if it isn't D's fault the public gets mad about that. So I don't think D can win in a situation like this no matter what they try to do or say :nono2: :rolleyes: :(

[2Guysfootball]

Best Post Ever!!!:)
DoLLY
Well if the Spot beams aren't working they certainly can't do this now. But things are hard on a company like D. I think that is why they try to keep things as secret as possible. Because they are D***** if they do and D*****, if they don't. The public wants information and if D doesn't give that to them the public is upset. On the other hand if D gives out information that turns out to be incorrect even if it isn't D's fault the public gets mad about that. So I don't think D can win in a situation like this no matter what they try to do or say

[MrDad0330]

I would hope they wouldnt delay national rollout of HD. The claim would be for damaged spot beams making D unable to lite up more local markets. That can easily be seen by an insurance company. I am even sure how they would determine how much of a claim would be warranted. "X" percentage of spot beam failure and that would be "X" percentage of the total value of D10.
Please Mr insurance man, dont hold up the national rollout...

[richlife]

Well if the Spot beams aren't working they certainly can't do this now. But things are hard on a company like D. I think that is why they try to keep things as secret as possible. Because they are D***** if they do and D*****, if they don't. The public wants information and if D doesn't give that to them the public is upset. On the other hand if D gives out information that turns out to be incorrect even if it isn't D's fault the public gets mad about that. So I don't think D can win in a situation like this no matter what they try to do or say :nono2: :rolleyes: :(

Right on, Dolly. Anyone who ever goes into any management or coordination position learns that first thing. There is no right choice. Those of us who believe the people have the right to know are probably going to take the most heat. Those who hide the info will only take the heat if discovered. D***** and double-D*****!

[leww37334]

Silver lining: maybe this will get people to put up antennas for their locals, if you can do it the antenna will provide you additional channels, sub channels and the ability to watch the local radar when it rains.

[ShiningBengal]

Silver lining: maybe this will get people to put up antennas for their locals, if you can do it the antenna will provide you additional channels, sub channels and the ability to watch the local radar when it rains.

The subchannels are not a silver lining to people who want to get a quality PQ worthy of the designation HD. You can have quality or quantity, but not both. At least not both at the same time.

It takes bandwidth to provide a useable signal, and it comes at a cost. Even if a station chooses to give priority to their "prime" HD signal, pealing off bandwidth to up to four additional sub-channels means that the HD signal becomes progressively bit-starved with the predictable result of PQ degradation.

You can't have your cake and eat it too!:icon_cry:

[jacmyoung]

Best Post Ever!!!:)
DoLLY

Except what the poster described was far from truth.

In this case, it was D* starting from a year ago blasted the public with their HD plan and press releases and ads after one another promising the number of HDs and dates. So it is hard to convince me D* somehow was in some kind of dilemma as how much to tell the public about their HD plan.

I happen to think D* as well as all the fans, and any prospective subs (me included) lucked out on this one, because in a year of time so many things could have gone wrong yet so far the only thing bad we know is not only minor but will not affect the core HD plan.

Maybe with this small glitch D* marketing will reconsider such feeding frenzy in the future.

[ShiningBengal]

Except what the poster described was far from truth.

In this case, it was D* starting from a year ago blasted the public with their HD plan and press releases and ads after one another promising the number of HDs and dates. So it is hard to convince me D* somehow was in some kind of dilemma as how much to tell the public about their HD plan.

I happen to think D* as well as all the fans, and any prospective subs (me included) lucked out on this one, because in a year of time so many things could have gone wrong yet so far the only thing bad we know is not only minor but will not affect the core HD plan.

Maybe with this small glitch D* marketing will reconsider such feeding frenzy in the future.

Marketing is not optional. I don't see it as a "frenzy." DirecTV was behind the 8-ball in getting its HD offerings up and running, while everyone else who had a few more channels was trumpeting the fact at every opportunity.

If you were a shareholder, would you want DirecTV's subscriber base to be drained off by Dish and Comcast while you kept your mouth shut about what was (in truth) coming down the line?

They did begin delivering on their promise last year with HD locals, did they not?

DirecTV did exactly what they had to do in announcing to the general public--and their shareholders--what their plans were for additional HD offerings.

[georgecostanza]

Very true. Then again, they may not be. It might be the fault of the launcher - after all, the very next Proton/Breeze launch failed a couple weeks ago. It's conceivable that the vehicle had unexpected vibrations or oscillations outside the prescribed and contracted launch requirements. These things DO happen. It might also be the fault of rough handling by ILS prior to or during vehicle mating. The Apollo 13 SM LOX tank explosion was traced back to a drop several years before by a contractor, combined with a specification change that was never fully documented and complied with. It almost cost three men their lives and did result in one of only seven manned missions to the moon failing to achieve its goal. If it's a contractor problem, it's ultimately Boeing's fault still. If it's ILS's fault, it's not.

The fact is, however, that Boeing is one of the largest manufacturers of satellite vehicles in the world and due to market consolidation, there are few suppliers to compete. They are also contracted to produce two more vehicles of similar configuration, one of which should be due for delivery any time now. There is LOTS of incentive by all parties to figure out the issue and fix it, pronto, regardless of cost. Contract adjustments will come, but not at the expense of destroying working relationships between all the parties.

THAT'S the reality, not Scott's web-based rumor-mongering and contentiousness.

I'm not sure boeing does all the manufacturing of these birds, they might just be the prime integrator, they have a lot of subcontractors building pieces and parts.

[ShiningBengal]

I'm not sure boeing does all the manufacturing of these birds, they might just be the prime integrator, they have a lot of subcontractors building pieces and parts.

Any product as electronically and mechanically sophisticated as a DBS satellite surely has scores of subcontractors and suppliers, just as the commercial aviation devision of Boeing does in the manufacture of the Dreamliner. You call Boeing the "prime integrator." I think the word "manufacturer" means exactly the same thing.

When your BMW loses a wheel (obviously never would happen in the real world :D ), you don't try to figure out which supplier or subcontractor may have been involved in the failure and have them take care of the warranty repair. You take it back to the dealer. If you lost your leg as a result, you would certainly know who to sue.

[SteveEJ]

Very true. Then again, they may not be. It might be the fault of the launcher - after all, the very next Proton/Breeze launch failed a couple weeks ago. It's conceivable that the vehicle had unexpected vibrations or oscillations outside the prescribed and contracted launch requirements. These things DO happen. It might also be the fault of rough handling by ILS prior to or during vehicle mating. The Apollo 13 SM LOX tank explosion was traced back to a drop several years before by a contractor, combined with a specification change that was never fully documented and complied with. It almost cost three men their lives and did result in one of only seven manned missions to the moon failing to achieve its goal. If it's a contractor problem, it's ultimately Boeing's fault still. If it's ILS's fault, it's not.

The fact is, however, that Boeing is one of the largest manufacturers of satellite vehicles in the world and due to market consolidation, there are few suppliers to compete. They are also contracted to produce two more vehicles of similar configuration, one of which should be due for delivery any time now. There is LOTS of incentive by all parties to figure out the issue and fix it, pronto, regardless of cost. Contract adjustments will come, but not at the expense of destroying working relationships between all the parties.

THAT'S the reality, not Scott's web-based rumor-mongering and contentiousness.

Lefty.. Excellent words! Being a retired Federal Employee in the Aviation Business People that over-dramatize catch the spotlite for a very short time, then fizz out. Cool headed folks that deal in the facts are always appreciated.. Thanks!:)

SteveEJ

[jacmyoung]

Marketing is not optional. ...DirecTV did exactly what they had to do in announcing to the general public--and their shareholders--what their plans were for additional HD offerings.

But I believe marketing (while hype is common) must still be responsible and credible. What if something had gone terribly wrong with D10? Imagine what would that do to the shareholders and the public.

Please don't tell me this is exactly what D* must do. I have never seen a company marketing something as a matter of after fact when each of the many steps leading to that fact had the potential to stall the process along the way.

And you certainly can not say in this case D* was in between a rock and a hard place when it came to how much to tell the public. This latest press release however read more like an item you would normally find in the public forum by a responsible company.

[badgerdave]

BTW...

If you're going to insult people do it correctly...

It's Styx not Sticks.

If any of the DMA want a major league franchise (or something close) build a domed stadium and the Marlins will move there.


Ah, no it's STICKS, not the river. It's an American invention that had no biblical tie ins at all.

[LameLefty]

Ah, no it's STICKS, not the river. It's an American invention that had no biblical tie ins at all.

The River Styx has nothing to do with the Bible I read as a kid . . . :p

And now:

:backtotop

[Alan Gordon]

The original D* plan of 1500 HD locals was to provide local HD coverage to over 90 percent of the population.

Most DirecTV press releases have mentioned over 90 percent of the population, but several comments by DirecTV have also implied complete coverage... which could be possible if you do the math.

First of all, let's say that all 210 DMAs in the country has:

FOUR HD CHANNELS: 840 HD channels
FIVE HD CHANNELS: 1050 HD channels
SIX HD CHANNELS: 1260 HD channels
SEVEN HD CHANNELS: 1470 HD channels

There are 1700+ stations in the country, but for many of them, it will be years, if ever, before they upgrade to HD.

Take Atlanta (DMA #9) which has 13 networks including NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, CW, MyNetworkTV, TWO PBS stations, WTBS (soon to be a different name), ION, Univision, TBN, and FamilyNet. While the jury may still be out as to whether or not the soon to be... whatever WTBS is renaming itself will be broadcasting in HD, they won't be broadcasting in HD for the forseeable future (after Baseball goes into Post-Season), DirecTV carries national TBN (soon to be broadcasting in HD) instead of local TBNs which means that won't be an issue... which cuts down the channels to 11. I've heard no Ion, FamilyNet or Univision going HD at this time which cuts that down to 8. DirecTV could put GPTV (GA's statewide PBS) on Conus (ala Dish and their SD channel) thereby making it seven and reducing the number of HD-LIL needed in other parts of GA... or do vice versa and put GPTV-HD on other spot-beams for smaller DMAs should it provide 100% coverage

The lower on the DMA list, the less channels DirecTV have to worry about. 1500 HD-LIL channels COULD PROBABLY cover the entire country.

Also of interest to note is the improvements made to MPEG4 encoding since DirecTV announced 1500. It's possible DirecTV took that into account and predicted 1500, or it's possible that number is now higher.

It was orginally announced that D10 would add about 75 more cities to the HD locals served. The last "not yet" on this list occurs at DMA 141 "Medford-Klamath Falls, OR" If D10 had provided 75 more cities you get near the bottom DMAs listed as "not yet". Several other small Northwest DMAs are also near the the bottom of those marked "not yet". However a number of other DMAs outside the Northwest are also near the bottom of the "not yet" list.

I'm not doubting you, but rather more curious. DirecTV announced:

DIRECTV's roll out of local HD channels in Mankato is part of a nationwide expansion of HD programming that includes plans to offer local HD channels in up to 75 markets and up to 100 national HD channels by year end.

D10 was said to provide the capacity for 500 HD-LIL channels, but I've yet to hear how many DMAs that was expected to be. If DirecTV decided to only provide the top four in the next round of DMAs until D11 is up, DirecTV could theoretically offer 125 DMAs with just D10 (or at least it theoretically could before the spot-beam issue).

Again, not doubting you, just wondering where you got your information.

Edit: BTW I am in a small DMA, but we get all four of the network HD channels, plus the PBS national HD channel ( HD 24/7) via OTA so I am fine whatever happens.

I'm in a small DMA too, but I have to rely on other DMAs for some of my networks... but I'm probably a ways from HD-LIL as we should be getting SD-LIL for the first time in the next month or so... which brings up something that could blow my theory to heck as rumors are starting to make it look like some smaller DMAs may be getting their SD-LIL off of the KA satellites... but then again, DirecTV might have known that some time ago and factored them in when coming up with the 1500 HD-LIL... who knows!!

BTW, while it may not seem like it, I enjoyed your post! :)

~Alan

[TBoneit]

If you're going to correct someone, do it correctly. Styx is a river between Earth and the Underworld according to Greek Mythology. Sticks is one of the nicknames given to decidedly rural areas.

There used to be a place in Oregon named Sticks. That was back before the Spotted Owl. Of course we also have such creative names as Boring and Drain.

And here I thought Styx was a rock and roll group.

[Draconis]

It's widely known that the RSNs are coming *off* the spotbeams and going CONUS (national beams).

I find that surprising because the HD RSN’s were put on the spot beams in order to enforce marketing and broadcasters restrictions.

Classily DIRECTV has played by the broadcasters rules and done everything they can to comply with broadcasting restrictions.

If the HD RSN’s change to national beams then there is no guarantee that the viewer lives in the intended market.

Guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[RAD]

I find that surprising because the HD RSN’s were put on the spot beams in order to enforce marketing and broadcasters restrictions.

Classily DIRECTV has played by the broadcasters rules and done everything they can to comply with broadcasting restrictions.

If the HD RSN’s change to national beams then there is no guarantee that the viewer lives in the intended market.

Guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

D* needs to do this so they can show the HD games from the sports packages, like MLB-EI, NHL-CI, NBA-LP across the entire nation and not just in the RSN's region. I was thinking about getting NBA-LP last year but with only some of the games in HD I passed, this year with RSN's on CONUS I'd be able to watch any game that originates in HD in HD.

[ShiningBengal]

But I believe marketing (while hype is common) must still be responsible and credible. What if something had gone terribly wrong with D10? Imagine what would that do to the shareholders and the public.

Please don't tell me this is exactly what D* must do. I have never seen a company marketing something as a matter of after fact when each of the many steps leading to that fact had the potential to stall the process along the way.

And you certainly can not say in this case D* was in between a rock and a hard place when it came to how much to tell the public. This latest press release however read more like an item you would normally find in the public forum by a responsible company.

Well, I guess we just disagree, since I believe DirecTV's marketing has been both responsible and credible. And if something goes "terribly wrong" nothing DirecTV has said in the past or says now will make any difference. Such an event would certainly affect the shareholders interests negatively, irrespective of those pronouncements.

(Every official announcement DirecTV has ever made about its plans has been accompanied by the required SEC language, "...forward looking." )

Where did I say that DirecTV was "between a rock and a hard place?" I said no such thing. Being between a rock and a hard place means that you have but two choices and must decide between those choices, either one of which will have a significant negative outcome.

Doing what circumstances dictated was clearly the correct course of action does not fit such a scenario at all. Yes, I said DirecTV had no choice, but I think most would construe that language to be a figure of speach.

What I meant was that DirecTV had one clear choice. They could have said nothing and give their competition free rein to say whatever they wished, unchallenged. That would, in my view, have not been in the best interest of DirecTV's shareholders, employees, and even those of their existing subscribers.

[dcben]

New TLE and looking much better. The inclination is down to .0682 and the rev/da up to 1.00271998, just about what it has to be to end its relocation and stop drifting.

I don't have a program to generate a current position. Someone?

Ben

[jacmyoung]

...They could have said nothing and give their competition free rein to say whatever they wished, unchallenged. That would, in my view, have not been in the best interest of DirecTV's shareholders, employees, and even those of their existing subscribers.

But there are many ways to say it between saying nothing and telling pretty much everthing under the sky so the expectation is at the highest level possible.

"Rock and hard place" was in reference to an earlier post saying D* is d***** if they say too much and d***** if they don't say anything. My point was D* told everything there is to tell.

At the very least telling your competitors every detail of your plan long before the plan can even materialize is hardly a good strategy.

... And if something goes "terribly wrong" nothing DirecTV has said in the past or says now will make any difference. ...

Are you sure about that?

[bwaldron]

I find that surprising because the HD RSN’s were put on the spot beams in order to enforce marketing and broadcasters restrictions.

No, I don't believe that is correct. Purely a technical limitation until the CONUS bandwidth is available. And the SD RSN channels have always been CONUS. The territorial restrictions for the pro (and some college) content on the RSNs has always been enforced via blackout. Since this goes by service address zip, yes, there has been some "moving" to get around the restrictions.

To offer the HD versions of the sports league packages (efficiently in terms of bandwidth), it's important that they be on CONUS birds.

[Argee]

Once all subscribers have MPEG 4 receivers can D* change the current MPEG 2 birds over to MPEG 4 and open a lot more capacity off 101, 110 and 119?

[dcben]

New TLE and looking much better. The inclination is down to .0682 and the rev/da up to 1.00271998, just about what it has to be to end its relocation and stop drifting.

I don't have a program to generate a current position. Someone?

Ben

Already covered in the Anticipation thread. Sorry. Sat is at 102.788

Ben

[oakwcj]

New TLE and looking much better. The inclination is down to .0682 and the rev/da up to 1.00271998, just about what it has to be to end its relocation and stop drifting.

I don't have a program to generate a current position. Someone?

Ben

1DIRECTV 10
Lon 102.7866° W
Lat 0.0237° S
Alt (km) 35 783.960
Azm 150.0°
Elv 41.7°
RA 09h 54m 08s
Decl -5° 56' 16"
Range (km) 37 646.262
RRt (km/s) 0.000
Vel (km/s) 3.075
Direction Descending

Pretty pretty pretty pretty good.

[ShiningBengal]

But there are many ways to say it between saying nothing and telling pretty much everthing under the sky so the expectation is at the highest level possible.

Can you provide an example of such a statement by DirecTV? I've read pretty much all of their statements in the past few years, and don't recall reading any that could be accurately described in such a manner. (I am referring to official statements and not advertising which of course anyone with a modicum of intelligence will take with several large grains of salt.)

At the very least telling your competitors every detail of your plan long before the plan can even materialize is hardly a good strategy.

I don't believe that is born out by the facts. Again, it would be helpful if you would provide a specific example illustrating your point. And what would be the point of making a "prediction" after the event has actually occurred? DirecTV's public statements are clearly intended for the public, not it's competitors. You cannot commit huge resources in a publicly held company without divulging the facts in your SEC filings. Competitors have access to this information just as readily as shareholders.

Are you sure about that?

After many years of watching how the stock market reacts to even the most insignificant event, I am as certain as I can be. Your language (i.e., "terribly wrong") suggests a calamity, such as the loss of a satellite with no available backup.

I certainly have no vested interest in DirecTV (other than that of a subscriber). But I fail to see any basis for your criticism of what DirecTV has gone on record stating. Their "forward looking" statements are always couched with the usual and sometimes required disclaimers. And statements that have referred to planned events have not been described as faits accompli.

I might not be so contrarian if you had provided some facts to back up your assertions.:)

[Alan Gordon]

Once all subscribers have MPEG 4 receivers can D* change the current MPEG 2 birds over to MPEG 4 and open a lot more capacity off 101, 110 and 119?

There is nothing that prevents DirecTV from beaming MPEG4 off one the KU satellites... though it will probably be some time before everyone gets MPEG4 receivers...

~Alan

[TBoneit]

Also remember they have some "spares" on board so they could fire up a national spare to cover a spot beam..

That depends on what the problem is. If it is a power problem where they have decided to power the conus beams, maybe not. And spares can not be used willy nilly. Each satellite location and service provider is only licensed for so many transponders. Once you have used all your allocated transponders up then that is all you can use.

OTOH using a Conus means that they have far fewer channels for that transponder. The main reason for spot beams is to re-use a transponder for different channels in different areas. So if, pulling a figure out of the air here, a conus transponder can provide 8 channels, that same transponder on 6 spot beams can provide 48 channels to different areas. Thus 6 Spots times 8 channels = 48.

That efficiency gain is why D* & E* both went to spot beams for locals. It allows one satellite to provide many more channels legally.

Re: Post #211 in this thread.
There is nothing preventing any satellite used from providing MPEG2 or MPEG4 or some yet to be deicided codec. The Satellites just take what the uplink send them and resend it back down to us.

[TBoneit]

Lame,
I suppose they would have telemitry from D10 as to how much vibration it underwent. If it was beyond levels acceptable then ILS would be responsible and actually Boeing and D probably had their fingers crossed all this time that damage didnt occur. It is a tricky science

Well even on terrestrial shipments, shippers have been including instruments that can record temperature, shipment orientation or shock levels in their shipments where such a device is indicated. That helps with claims is soemthing is damaged due to being to hot or to cold or delicate items marked fragile being damaged by shock and so on.

I'm sure when the satellites leave the manufacturer they are monitored. I'm also sure the have telemetry to indicate damage from a bad launch. I know at that price I would do it.

[Tom Robertson]

Once all subscribers have MPEG 4 receivers can D* change the current MPEG 2 birds over to MPEG 4 and open a lot more capacity off 101, 110 and 119?

Yes they can, but that will entail 40M receivers. Don't count on it soon. :)

Also, my understanding is that the SD channels don't benefit as much from the switch to MPEG4 that the HD channels do. Don't count on that much more space being made available.

Cheers,
Tom

[Alan Gordon]

Also, my understanding is that the SD channels don't benefit as much from the switch to MPEG4 that the HD channels do. Don't count on that much more space being made available.

True, but using MPEG4 and 8PSK, you could fit anywhere from 27 - 32 SD channels on a single 36 MHz transponder (like the KA satellites)... according to the last I remember from Tandberg. I don't remember how much the KU satellites run... but the encoders are capable of full resolution SD at either 1.5 or 1.75 MB/s.

~Alan

[bonscott87]

I find that surprising because the HD RSN’s were put on the spot beams in order to enforce marketing and broadcasters restrictions.

Classily DIRECTV has played by the broadcasters rules and done everything they can to comply with broadcasting restrictions.

If the HD RSN’s change to national beams then there is no guarantee that the viewer lives in the intended market.

Guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Totally incorrect. The only reason they are on spotbeams up until this point is because that was the only way to make them available being that Spaceway 1 and 2 are spotbeam only satellites. Now with D10 they can put them on CONUS, just like the SD versions have been for over a decade.

[jacmyoung]

...I might not be so contrarian if you had provided some facts to back up your assertions.:)

Maybe you have not been paying attention in the past year or so.

But of course if you insist I must list all of the press releases and paid advertisements to convince you then no I don't have such desire to do so, because even if I do so you will not be convinced. But I am not here to convince you of anything, just express my view, anyone who cares to read it can make up his own mind whether it is reasonable or not.

I will just leave one last small detail to make this point again. Among all the promises D* made in the past year, one is that they would be the first to launch History Channel HD on 9/1. In the end E* was able to claim that by launching it on 9/5. Now it seems likely that channel was the first casualty (hopefully the only one) of the D10 technical problem that resulted in D* eating its words. (I realized I just gave you a specific example, oh well.)

When I said we are lucky, that is exactly it, this item is minor compared to some major delay, but a perfect example of saying too much too soon and put in such certain terms, is never a good strategy in a competitive market.

[Alan Gordon]

I will just leave one last small detail to make this point again. Among all the promises D* made in the past year, one is that they would be the first to launch History Channel HD on 9/1. In the end E* was able to claim that by launching it on 9/5.

When I said we are lucky, that is exactly it, this item is minor compared to some major delay, but a perfect example of saying too much too soon and put in such certain terms, is never a good strategy in a competitive market.

Not to get involved in the "heated" discussion... especially considering I see both your points. I do have to bring up one point... how many people are going to be upset that DirecTV will be one or two weeks behind in bringing History Channel HD to subscribers?

~Alan

[RAD]

I will just leave one last small detail to make this point again. Among all the promises D* made in the past year, one is that they would be the first to launch History Channel HD on 9/1. In the end E* was able to claim that by launching it on 9/5.

To clearify, it was not just D* that announced it, THC also said that D* would be the first, "Las Vegas, NV (May 7, 2007) – The History Channel® and DIRECTV, Inc. today announced that DIRECTV will be the first to launch The History Channel HD, a new 24-hour high definition television network, scheduled to debut in September 2007." Now did you ever consider that THC did approach E* about carrying he channel and cheapo said no but then changed his mind when he say that if he didn't start adding channels he could no longer claim to be the HD leader. Plus unless changed how many days are in September they still have 14 days to meet their launch date.

[purtman]

To add to what RAD said, every one of the contacts in the press release to announce that D* would be the first to host THC is from A&E, which owns THC. NONE were from D*. Even the press releases on D*'s site are from A&E.

Now, back to topic!

[jacmyoung]

However judging from the aggressive marketing D* has embarked on for the last year or so, it is reasonable to believe it was D* who insisted that the "first to carry" be put in the carriage agreement, not THC or A&E. The fact the very moment D* told them they could not carry it on time, THC quickly went on E* told me THC did not care who would be the first to carry the new channel, just have someone carry them as soon as they launch was all they would give a d***.

Not too different when D* wanted to have you take home the impression that they will have the "most", they are "the only", they are "the leader" and are making history. It is the pattern I was looking for, except traditionally D* was in fact more cautious than E*, never disclosed anything until things were already on, just paid the fees or settled to avoid any legal battles, and the list goes on.

No this particular turn of event will get little notice, but it nevertheless demonstrates the risk of being overly confident and betting on everything going according to the plan.

[Azdeadwood]

To clearify, it was not just D* that announced it, THC also said that D* would be the first, "Las Vegas, NV (May 7, 2007) – The History Channel® and DIRECTV, Inc. today announced that DIRECTV will be the first to launch The History Channel HD, a new 24-hour high definition television network, scheduled to debut in September 2007." Now did you ever consider that THC did approach E* about carrying he channel and cheapo said no but then changed his mind when he say that if he didn't start adding channels he could no longer claim to be the HD leader. Plus unless changed how many days are in September they still have 14 days to meet their launch date.

Yeah, the "Year of the HD" will actually be the 3 months (or less)!

My brother has Dish and he still has more than 4 times more HD than I do! Even if they add 20 channels this month, Dish will still have more.

[bberkley]

Should I be looking for anything on my HR20 tonight? I'm seeing some signal on the 103(b).

[Juggernaut]

Should I be looking for anything on my HR20 tonight? I'm seeing some signal on the 103(b).

I'm not holding my breath.

[donshan]

Most DirecTV press releases have mentioned over 90 percent of the population, but several comments by DirecTV have also implied complete coverage... which could be possible if you do the math.

First of all, let's say that all 210 DMAs in the country has:

FOUR HD CHANNELS: 840 HD channels
FIVE HD CHANNELS: 1050 HD channels
SIX HD CHANNELS: 1260 HD channels
SEVEN HD CHANNELS: 1470 HD channels

There are 1700+ stations in the country, but for many of them, it will be years, if ever, before they upgrade to HD.
-skip-
I'm not doubting you, but rather more curious. DirecTV announced:

D10 was said to provide the capacity for 500 HD-LIL channels, but I've yet to hear how many DMAs that was expected to be. If DirecTV decided to only provide the top four in the next round of DMAs until D11 is up, DirecTV could theoretically offer 125 DMAs with just D10 (or at least it theoretically could before the spot-beam issue).

Again, not doubting you, just wondering where you got your information.

I'm in a small DMA too, but I have to rely on other DMAs for some of my networks... but I'm probably a ways from HD-LIL as we should be getting SD-LIL for the first time in the next month or so... which brings up something that could blow my theory to heck as rumors are starting to make it look like some smaller DMAs may be getting their SD-LIL off of the KA satellites... but then again, DirecTV might have known that some time ago and factored them in when coming up with the 1500 HD-LIL... who knows!!

BTW, while it may not seem like it, I enjoyed your post! :)

~Alan

Thanks for continuing the discussion. :) Those of us in small DMAs are the ones likely to experience further delays in getting any LIL HD by this spot beam problem. OTA antennas will prevail with satellite service providing national HD.

The purpose of my post was to use the DBSTalk Local HD list sorted by DMA to assess the impact of this D10 Spot beam problem by looking at where the "making the cut" line might be by using the "late 2007 and not yet" labels. You raise some good points and I now see I may have misread one of DirecTV's statement about the 75 markets to have D* HD LIL in 2007. Thus the way I applied the 75 to the list may not have been correct unless there are enough spot beam channels on D10 to do that. :nono:

If someone has a link indicating how many HD local channels were originally expected on D10 & D11 I would be interested.

I looked it up at :

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1023344&highlight=

I thought this statement ( or some other article I read that I can't find now) said that D10 was going to add HD for 75 more markets in 2007 and and that meant that D11 could add 75 additional markets to to the HD local list. The The Boeing D10 spec sheet lists 55 active spot beams ( plus 14 spares). D11 is the same. This many spot beam transponders on each sat. certainly would be consistant with the possibliity of full national LIL HD coverage of all the 210 DMA markets depending on the breakdown of how many HD channels each DMA gets, with a minimum of four local HD stations in order to get anything on D*. The most recent DirecTV statement about the spot beam problem reaffirms that their plans the 1500 LIL HD channels will still be possible.

However, we currently believe our planned expansion of HD local programming as previously announced will not be materially affected.

However as I now reread their statement made after the launch of D10 , it says " expand services to up to 75 markets this year", not" add services to 75 markets this year".

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1023344&highlight=.


The DIRECTV 10 satellite's powerful transponder payload includes spot beam capacity that will enable DIRECTV to expand its local HD channel services to up to 75 markets this year.

If that means 75 total markets getting HD in 2007, including those already served by Spaceway 1/2 this year, then the LIL on D10 was not as high as I had thought, adding only about 15 new markets this year ( ,and it is less now). However, more LIL markets have been planned for 2008 from D10 due to uplink issues. It is just not clear.

A better interpretation of the DBStalk list may be that DMAs marked " late 2007" and "not yet" also include LIL for D11 in those designations, and 1500 channels may not be enough for full national coverage because large DMAs may claim many of the HD slots before small DMAs have a complete set of at least four HD channels to add to D*.

The FCC rule seems to be that if D* provides LIL then they have to provide service to every station in a market that requests it ( except only one station from each network is required) or as negotiated by an agreement.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/shvera.html

SHVIA and SHVERA do not require satellite companies to offer local channels. Rather, satellite companies have the option of providing local-into-local service.

A company that has chosen to provide this local-into-local service is required to provide subscribers with all of the local broadcast TV stations assigned to that DMA that have asked to be carried. Contact your satellite company to determine which DMA applies to you and whether local-into-local service is available in your area.

A satellite company is not required to carry more than one local broadcast TV station within the DMA that is affiliated with a particular TV network in the same state.

Local Public Broadcasting System (PBS) stations and other noncommercial stations are usually included in the "local" stations offered in areas where the satellite companies choose to offer local-into-local service. Check with your satellite company to learn whether PBS programming is available in your area.

However, since the FCC does not require that ANY digital TV station provide HDTV ( it is optional), then I expect D* to use those 1500 HD channels to reach as big a sub base as they can. DMAs where the local cable company is providing HDTV competition will be one major driving force to get a DMA on the D* list. Also since the FCC includes PBS as a "local" it seems to me PBS-HD should be a high D* priority in all DMAs.

As you said, many local stations will probably delay adding any HD capability long enough to miss out on getting a slot in the 1500 LIL HD channels, so I feel the "over 90 percent of population statement probably will happen, but not 100 percent of DMAs, especially if I miscalculated how many spot beams would be available on D10/D11 which is even less now.

Now I am confused. What I really want is the new HD national channels, not LIL HD anyway!

[ShiningBengal]

Maybe you have not been paying attention in the past year or so.

But of course if you insist I must list all of the press releases and paid advertisements to convince you then no I don't have such desire to do so, because even if I do so you will not be convinced. But I am not here to convince you of anything, just express my view, anyone who cares to read it can make up his own mind whether it is reasonable or not.

I will just leave one last small detail to make this point again. Among all the promises D* made in the past year, one is that they would be the first to launch History Channel HD on 9/1. In the end E* was able to claim that by launching it on 9/5. Now it seems likely that channel was the first casualty (hopefully the only one) of the D10 technical problem that resulted in D* eating its words. (I realized I just gave you a specific example, oh well.)

When I said we are lucky, that is exactly it, this item is minor compared to some major delay, but a perfect example of saying too much too soon and put in such certain terms, is never a good strategy in a competitive market.

One press release would do. Your last point about the supposed "promise" that DirecTV would be the first to launch the history channel "in the past year" would be more convincing if you provided a verifiable source. And I'm sorry, if that's all you can come up with to substantiate your generalization, it's pretty weak, don't you think?

What technical problem with D10 are you referring to? The only one I know of had to do with delivery of spot beams. The History Channel will certainly be on a CONUS transponder.

I have evidently been paying closer attention than some.;)

[Alan Gordon]

If someone has a link indicating how many HD local channels were originally expected on D10 & D11 I would be interested.

I don't really have time to look for a link (I've been working on some take-home work today that I should have been working on earlier in the week), but D10 and D11 were supposed to each offer 500 HD-LILs with the SpaceWays offering a combined total of 500... adding up to... 1500 HD-LIL channels

I thought this statement ( or some other article I read that I can't find now) said that D10 was going to add HD for 75 more markets in 2007 and and that meant that D11 could add 75 additional markets to to the HD local list. The The Boeing D10 spec sheet lists 55 active spot beams ( plus 14 spares). D11 is the same. This many spot beam transponders on each sat. certainly would be consistant with the possibliity of full national LIL HD coverage of all the 210 DMA markets depending on the breakdown of how many HD channels each DMA gets, with a minimum of four local HD stations in order to get anything on D*. The most recent DirecTV statement about the spot beam problem reaffirms that their plans the 1500 LIL HD channels will still be possible.

Yeah, every press release I have read and a webcast or two has stated they intend to offer up to 75 HD DMAs this year... which makes sense as they will be busy most likely with HD nationals and SD-LIL launches.

Also, I don't really agree with your statement about the "minimum of four" as... well, take my birth DMA of Jackson, TN that has three network stations (ABC, PBS, and FOX). I can't really speak for whether or not any of them besides ABC is in HD, but once you get down to the bottom, a lot of DMAs will rely on "Significantly Viewed" channels (which DirecTV is intending on offering in HD) to fill out their network affiliated channels. Heck, some DMAs have only one network, and if HD, could possibly fit on a transponder covering a larger DMA with HD-LIL. Heck, I get a signal on most every transponder on 103(a). If DirecTV were to put the statewide GPTV (PBS) on CONUS once it goes HD later this year, early next, my DMA would only have three HD channels to put on a transponder... and only two of them are eligible for "Must Carry."

The FCC rule seems to be that if D* provides LIL then they have to provide service to every station in a market that requests it (except only one station from each network is required) or as negotiated by an agreement.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/shvera.html

Since DirecTV intends to offer SD-LIL in all 210 DMAs next year, only HD networks should be an issue here as their is no reason to offer 480i feeds (unless "multicast must-carry" becomes law).

As you said, many local stations will probably delay adding any HD capability long enough to miss out on getting a slot in the 1500 LIL HD channels, so I feel the "over 90 percent of population statement probably will happen, but not 100 percent of DMAs, especially if I miscalculated how many spot beams would be available on D10/D11 which is even less now.

You stated above that D10 had 55 spots and 14 spares. If D10 has less than 14 transponders with issues (depending on what the issues are), it might still be alright. We just don't know at this time...

~Alan

[jacmyoung]

..I have evidently been paying closer attention than some.;)


Except you missed several people had already confirmed this press release in the previous page, in arguing against me BTW.

The fact THC is a national channel and could be put on a CONUS trasponder and still kept D*'s "first to carry" promise just supports my earlier speculation that just because the problem was only related to the spot beams does not mean the problem will not delay the whole plan. Yes THC is again a good example.

[Ext 721]

Anyway, back to topic. Basically all this means is that it sounds like a couple spots aren't working in the Northwest. No big deal, deliver those locals via one of the Spaceway's or D11. I don't think it will really effect much in the way of HD locals and I don't think it will delay the launch of any new HD LIL markets since D* has already stated that most of any new LIL launches won't happen until 2008 after D11 is operational.

well, the good news is that d10, d11, and both spaceways have reconfigurable spotbeams.

if d10 can't shoot straight in oregon, they can reconfigure an older bird to do that.

[Ext 721]

Once all subscribers have MPEG 4 receivers can D* change the current MPEG 2 birds over to MPEG 4 and open a lot more capacity off 101, 110 and 119?

so far as I know, there's nothing in them limiting the method of encoding...the birds themselves don't encode or decode....but I might be blatantly wrong :)

[Jeremy W]

well, the good news is that d10, d11, and both spaceways have reconfigurable spotbeams.
D10 and D11 do not have reconfigurable spotbeams. The Spaceways do though.

[Ext 721]

But I believe marketing (while hype is common) must still be responsible and credible. What if something had gone terribly wrong with D10? Imagine what would that do to the shareholders and the public.

Please don't tell me this is exactly what D* must do. I have never seen a company marketing something as a matter of after fact when each of the many steps leading to that fact had the potential to stall the process along the way.

And you certainly can not say in this case D* was in between a rock and a hard place when it came to how much to tell the public. This latest press release however read more like an item you would normally find in the public forum by a responsible company.

"I have never seen a company marketing something as a matter of after fact when each of the many steps leading to that fact had the potential to stall the process along the way."

You've never heard of a software company promising a product that never got delivered, or was delivered, but REALLY late? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

or a record company promoting a record that will be "out by christmas this year" that is finally published the october AFTER that christmas?

COME ON!:icon_stup

[jacmyoung]

I have never seen a company marketing something as a matter of after fact when each of the many steps leading to that fact had the potential to stall the process along the way.

You've never heard of a software company promising a product that never got delivered, or was delivered, but REALLY late? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

or a record company promoting a record that will be "out by christmas this year" that is finally published the october AFTER that christmas?

COME ON!:icon_stup

I certainly would not use the word "vaporware" to describe D*'s HD plan, would you?:)

But you still got me there. My mistake for using such term. Note to self: never say never.

Though I love music, now you know I am no fan of records.

[Tom Robertson]

Doshan and Alan Gordon, rather than copy your entire massive missives, can I say there are approximately 1,800 stations out there, with roughly 1,700 applied for or approved for digital. DIRECTV in their press announcements and FCC filings (for D10 and D11) have stated the following:

D10/D11/S1/S2 will support 1,500 locals
D10/D11 are licensed for 49 spotbeams each (yes, Boeing lists the birds at 55 spotbeams plus spares)
If the D10 problem was merely some of the spotbeams aren't working and replaced by spares, I suspect that there would be no need for the press release. Purely my guess.

Someday, DIRECTV will likely convert their existing SD LILs to Digital LILs on the existing satellites. That might get them all the way to full 210 DMA coverage.

Cheers,
Tom

[VegasDen]

I am certain you'll hear a good deal in the next few days. Clicking on "Investor Relations" the CFO speaks to Merrill Lynch this morning. Chase Carey is slated to address Goldman Sachs Tuesday morning and Liberty Media Investor Day on the 21st. Certainly someone will ask the questions that have been posted here.

[aramus8]

I am certain you'll hear a good deal in the next few days. Clicking on "Investor Relations" the CFO speaks to Merrill Lynch this morning. Chase Carey is slated to address Goldman Sachs Tuesday morning and Liberty Media Investor Day on the 21st. Certainly someone will ask the questions that have been posted here.

I hope someone asks if we need to put the E* installation number on our speed dial. The permit to operate D10 was only for 60 days. Is the FCC going to license it for permanent operation if it is broken?

[RUBBLE]

Is D10 Broken? I Have A Bad Feeling.

[Mrmiami]

There are several thousand people in NE Texas that don't get HD locals.


Yes and it's nice to think of Albany, NY as "The Boonies" too because we don't have HD Locals either guess it's time to pack up and move to NYC!!! I always wondered why we only received mail once a week.

[harsh]

Is the FCC going to license it for permanent operation if it is broken?As long as the satellite doesn't interfere with other satellites, the FCC is happy.

[TBoneit]

Maybe you have not been paying attention in the past year or so.

But of course if you insist I must list all of the press releases and paid advertisements to convince you then no I don't have such desire to do so, because even if I do so you will not be convinced. But I am not here to convince you of anything, just express my view, anyone who cares to read it can make up his own mind whether it is reasonable or not.

I will just leave one last small detail to make this point again. Among all the promises D* made in the past year, one is that they would be the first to launch History Channel HD on 9/1. In the end E* was able to claim that by launching it on 9/5. Now it seems likely that channel was the first casualty (hopefully the only one) of the D10 technical problem that resulted in D* eating its words. (I realized I just gave you a specific example, oh well.)

When I said we are lucky, that is exactly it, this item is minor compared to some major delay, but a perfect example of saying too much too soon and put in such certain terms, is never a good strategy in a competitive market.


Giving away to much info to soon can be a real big problem. From this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Computer_Corporation

"According to proponents of the Osborne Effect, the final blow occurred in 1983 when Adam Osborne boasted about an upcoming product months before it could be released, killing demand for the company's existing products. It is unclear whether this boast was about the Osborne Executive, which was released in May 1983 for $2,495 and featured a 7 inch (178 mm) screen and did not sell as well as its predecessor, or, more likely, the Osborne Vixen, a smaller portable that promised to offer compatibility not only with earlier Osborne models but also with MS-DOS, allowing it to run software designed for IBM and Compaq computers. Dealers rapidly started cancelling orders for the Osborne 1."

The impression I've received from D* over the last year with the announcements and then the changes in the announcements is that the management believes intent to do is almost as good the really doing it. They may do an Osborne if D10 can't deliver. Many subscribers have been patiently waiting for a year based on promises rather than jumping ship to E* or Cable or FIOS.

Where I live I have a choice of D*, E*, Cable or Fios. I wouldn't even bother going to HDTV with the limited D* channel selection. I went for years before even looking at a HDTV because I didn't want to tempt myself with it. I knew if I saw it and then went home to my SDTV I'd be unhappy. As it is I can get all the NYC HD Locals on basic cable including the sub channels. I wouldn't be happy with E* or D* HD locals selection. Note to self, time to look at the Fios offerings again and do a comparison.

How many of those patiently waiting would still be waiting all this time if these choices were available to them?

[donshan]

-skip-
Also, I don't really agree with your statement about the "minimum of four" as... well, take my birth DMA of Jackson, TN that has three network stations (ABC, PBS, and FOX). I can't really speak for whether or not any of them besides ABC is in HD, but once you get down to the bottom, a lot of DMAs will rely on "Significantly Viewed" channels (which DirecTV is intending on offering in HD) to fill out their network affiliated channels. Heck, some DMAs have only one network, and if HD, could possibly fit on a transponder covering a larger DMA with HD-LIL. Heck, I get a signal on most every transponder on 103(a). If DirecTV were to put the statewide GPTV (PBS) on CONUS once it goes HD later this year, early next, my DMA would only have three HD channels to put on a transponder... and only two of them are eligible for "Must Carry."
-skip-
You stated above that D10 had 55 spots and 14 spares. If D10 has less than 14 transponders with issues (depending on what the issues are), it might still be alright. We just don't know at this time...

~Alan



RE: "miniimum of 4 stations "- Hard remember all the details sometimes! :D
In the list of HD channels provided now, in most cases D* now just provides four major network HD stations. However you are right there are exceptions and some have less than four I should have said DirecTV currently provides "up to four stations ".

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/customer/faqPage.jsp?assetId=1300024 (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/customer/faqPage.jsp?
assetId=1300024)

DIRECTV offers local channels in HD in select markets. You'll need a three- or five-LNB multi-satellite dish, a DIRECTV HD Receiver and an HD television set. Up to four HD locals may be available in your area. These are ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC.

However D* has the option to bypass a DMA for HD service. Fairness would suggest that every HD channel in the US gets on the D* system. However D* has to pay to get that DMA HD to the upliink center. What I was thinking is that DMA markets that have the four main networks in HD will clearly have an advantage in getting their DMA selected for HD locals vs. smaller DMAs that don't have all four and the 1500 HD channels may get used up by adding more than four to the larger markets. As you say we just don't know:

My thought on the spotbeam issue is that there are plenty of spot beam units and I doubt they are defective. Rather I suspect some system problem has occured that limits the total number of spot beams that can be used at one time, such as a power distribution issue. Using a "mind game" hypothetical example just to illustrate my point concerns rechargeable batteries on the solar system. A battery can fail (maybe vibration during launch) , but I am sure they have redundant batteries. As D10 circles the earth the solar panels are charging when it is on the sun side, but the battery system must provide the full power load as D10 is eclipsed by the earth on the dark side each day. If there had been some failure of a battery or wiring in part of the solar power system, the total amp load available during darkness might be reduced. They still have enough dark side power for all the conus beams (priority 1) and some fraction of the spot beams, but not enough to run as many spot beams as designed. This then reduces spot beam capacity. Not that this is the real issue, but it is the type of thing that fits the D* description of the problem.

[donshan]

Doshan and Alan Gordon, rather than copy your entire massive missives, can I say there are approximately 1,800 stations out there, with roughly 1,700 applied for or approved for digital. DIRECTV in their press announcements and FCC filings (for D10 and D11) have stated the following:

D10/D11/S1/S2 will support 1,500 locals
D10/D11 are licensed for 49 spotbeams each (yes, Boeing lists the birds at 55 spotbeams plus spares)
If the D10 problem was merely some of the spotbeams aren't working and replaced by spares, I suspect that there would be no need for the press release. Purely my guess.

Someday, DIRECTV will likely convert their existing SD LILs to Digital LILs on the existing satellites. That might get them all the way to full 210 DMA coverage.

Cheers,
Tom

I will be brief! Thanks:D

[Tom Robertson]

I will be brief! Thanks:D

Sorry, no need to be brief, they are also content rich. A very good thing.

Cheers,
Tom

[GeorgeLV]

I hope someone asks if we need to put the E* installation number on our speed dial. The permit to operate D10 was only for 60 days. Is the FCC going to license it for permanent operation if it is broken?

If that were the rule E* would be out of business. They have some real clunkers in their fleet. (See Echostar 5 and Echostar 3)

[ShiningBengal]

There's other things to consider when thinking of DMA's...

I live "in" DMA #16 (or #18??), Minneapolis-St. Paul. To say I live "in" this DMA is a joke: I live 80 miles from the cities and can't get any OTA if I tried. There's no cable here (I chose to live in the country...there's a town -- pop. 20,000 -- 10-15 miles away with cable TV & HDTV). So, I'm dependent on D* for HD locals.

And it's rather flat around here...I have no doubt that there's other DMA's (maybe even bigger ones) where because of the geography, you can live even closer to the towers and still not get OTA....and be dependent on D*/E*/cable.

So, you don't have to be living in the boonies to not get OTA and need a provider to feed you the HD locals.

Just FYI, Minneapolis/St. Paul is DMA #15. As far as your distance (80 miles), that's not unheard of to get your locals (MSP) OTA. My brother lives in Northfield and he gets very reliable reception 40 miles from the antenna farm in Arden Hills using a very modest RS antenna in his attic.

There are antennas that will bring in UHF at over 100 miles, but of course that is highly variable and your results may vary. Your statement that you are "in the boonies" and in an area of flat terrain suggests you just might be the lucky ones. I use OTA for the networks I can't get from DirecTV and I live in an area with many "reflectors" nearby. I have no problem getting a very good signal with an "indoor" Silver Sensor mounted on the railing of my front 2nd level deck.

[Tom Servo]

Where I live I have a choice of D*, E*, Cable or Fios. I wouldn't even bother going to HDTV with the limited D* channel selection. I went for years before even looking at a HDTV because I didn't want to tempt myself with it. I knew if I saw it and then went home to my SDTV I'd be unhappy. As it is I can get all the NYC HD Locals on basic cable including the sub channels. I wouldn't be happy with E* or D* HD locals selection. Note to self, time to look at the Fios offerings again and do a comparison.

How many of those patiently waiting would still be waiting all this time if these choices were available to them?


3 out 4 are available to the majority of the population; only FiOS is difficult to find at the moment.

That being said, if my local cable company offered a competitive lineup (not just HD, but SD too) then I would probably swap to them just to have locals and storm-fade-free service. Instead, they offer most channels in snowy analogue and only premiums and PPVs in digital. To top it off, they only offer one local in HD and a few national networks. For the same price of D*'s Premier package. Thanks but no thanks.

Now if FiOS were on offer here, I'd jump ship so fast it wouldn't be funny. All digital, compression-free TV? Oh hell yes. The few lineups I've seen in Texas had tons more channels than the cable companies and even more than D* offers now, outside of sports programming. And in San Antonio, they had quite a nice HD lineup when I checked last year.

For most folks, the HD choice is simply between D* and E*. And right now E* is really stealing D*'s thunder when it comes to HD. It doesn't help that their HD lineup looks bigger thanks to all those VOOM exclusive channels they carry.

[bwaldron]

3 out 4 are available to the majority of the population; only FiOS is difficult to find at the moment.

I have FIOS available to me, and it is tempting in some ways. However, as a sports fan -- including many non-local teams -- none of the other providers can match the content offered by DirecTV. Sports is why I installed my BUD years ago, why I subscribed to DirecTV in the first place, and why I have stayed.

Competition, though, is a very good thing.

[Alan Gordon]

Sorry, no need to be brief, they are also content rich. A very good thing.

Amen! I've been having a lot of fun discussing this issue... however, I don't really have time right now to reply to you or donshan due to a busy week at work and I have a lot of researching and fact checking before I post what I intend to.

I might have time tonight, but it may be Wednesday...

~Alan

[rkjg24]

I hope someone asks if we need to put the E* installation number on our speed dial. The permit to operate D10 was only for 60 days. Is the FCC going to license it for permanent operation if it is broken?

Oh cry me a river. If you're that eager to jump ship, then go ahead.

[donshan]

Amen! I've been having a lot of fun discussing this issue... however, I don't really have time right now to reply to you or donshan due to a busy week at work and I have a lot of researching and fact checking before I post what I intend to.

I might have time tonight, but it may be Wednesday...

~Alan
Please do. I have time, but keep losing of links to stuff I read and then "think" I remember it right. I need the correct info because I have written our Congressmen and Senators a number of times on digital TV and satellite issues, and want to have the right sources too. I appreciate the exchange.:)

Also DBSTalk is not my primary on-line forum interest which is off topic here.