508 and DMR-E30 DVD Recorder

[bkwest]

I want to know if anyone had heard if they are going to make it where the 508 can control the start and stop of DVD Recorders like the Panasonic DMR-E30?? I would love it... would make life so much simpler. Any ideas or input?

Thanks,
Brian

[DarrellP]

I wonder if the E30 uses any of the Panasonic VCR codes? Might be worth trying them to see if they work.

[bkwest]

tried all the panasonic codes... no go. :(

[gcutler]

If the code isn't in there, can the codes get upgraded when the Reciever sw gets upgraded?

Try all the codes? Maybe the panasonic isn't all Panasonic inside?

[bkwest]

I did the scan for codes... can't even find one that will turn it on or off. I did call the tech people and request that they consider it. If worse comes to worse I will figure something else out. Later on I'm going to change the code sets on the Recorder since it supports 3 diffrent code sets and see what I can find. Who knows I might be lucky.

Thanks,
Brian

[gcutler]

So give us a review of the Panasonic DMR-E30. I have a DVD-RW drive in my PC and use a Dazzle Firewire DV capture device to get Analog and send it to the DVD (via authoring SW).


1) What at the specs?
2) Do you just click record and away it goes.
3) Are you limited to 2 hours, can you adjust quality to fit more. 4) If so what is the best PQ hours allowed, what is worst PQ
hours allowed.
5) I assume there is a delay is "Closing the Media". How long is it.
6) Any type of authoring ability? Or is the program just written to the DVD.
7) How well does the DVD-R or RW (does it use +R/RW or -R/RW media) play on other DVD Players

Some of us have DVD-RWs here, but I don't think anyone else here has this device.

[bkwest]

Basically you have four options for quality 1,2,4,6 hrs(12 for double sided disc's). Even at the lowest quality setting the picture is great. It has 3 sets of inputs(L,R,Vid,SVID) and two outputs including optical. Basic editing features when using DVD-RAM disc's and no editing features at all on DVD-R. It takes 4 min to close/finalize a disc. It automatically breaks the recorded show into chapters each about 5 min. It builds a basic menu for the DVD-R while closing the disc, once closed its just DVD-Video and should be able to be played in most newer players. As for DVD-RAM from this unit.. can only be played in the unit or on a PC/Players that know how to deal with it. It will read DVD-RW's that have been closed properly from what I have been told. Its a great replacement for that analog VCR most of us have. Plus the price of media is really cheap in my opinion.

http://store.yahoo.com/cdrdvdrmedia/comdealfor473.html

I must say I was shocked about the combo deals. I would recommend this unit to anyone looking to ditch the VHS and go full DVD/Digital. It really augments the 508's PVR abilities. I can snag shows with the PVR and offload them onto the DVD when I watch them. Would also make a great capture device if you were seriously into digital video and had DVD-R/RW/RAM capabilities on your PC.

Oh and it supports 480I and 480P for you HDTV fans out there. I plan on an HD upgrade sometime next year.

Later,
Brian

[gcutler]

The one problem I've run into is that most of my media is already VHS so its analog already and when converting, lose another generation. But there are VOB rippers where it will take the DVD-R or RW (and probably RAM) that you put in a PC, and take the digital and have it importable into Authoring SW. No loss of PQ. I had some lame-o DVDs from early on and the info was good, but the chapter and menus were lame. I was able to take the good data, and re-chapter and author it to my liking.

The only negative issue I see with you unit is the DVD-RAM. It seems that most PC DVD drive vendors are now ignoring the format, to the point where all 4 DVD-R/RW PC drive units I was looking at did not have DVD-RAM support, and the #s are spreading for NON-DVD-RAM. And most DVD-Players as well will not play DVD-RAM, but many will play DVD-RW.

If the unit burned to DVD-RW that would be great, as even though from $1-$3 per DVD-R is affordable, it can quickly get expensive if something goes wrong that makes them into coasters (PVR better since real life like lost signal already known before burn). I think once a DVD-RW burnable (or +RW) unit is under $500 then the revolution has arrived.

[kelliot]

If anyone figures out the Phillips 985 codes, I'd appreciate it as well.

[Rick P]

I'll jump in here since I have both an E20 (previous model to the E30) and the HS2 (the model after the E30)..

The HS2 adds one very very useful feature. Built-in 40GB harddrive. Allows you to unload form the PVR (Dishplayer in this case) and worry with the editing/burning later.

I do 90% of my recording on them using not DVD-R but DVD-RAM. Much more flexible and easier to work with if you plan on doing any 'fancy' (other than default menus, fine commercial triming, audio track replacment [oh, how I hate the voiceovers on 'The Critic' on Comedy Central]). The drill goes like this..

record on DVD-RAM on the Panasonic.

take to PC stick in Panasonic LF-D321 drive.

extract the VRO file from the DVD-RAM with Panasonic Tools.
Use Womble MPEG2VCR to do frame accurate editing/splicing leavin the AC3 sound track intact (there have been other methods that conver the AC3 to MPEG Audio. This skips that step and makes for more compatible discs).

load the MPEG2 file in ULead DVD Workshop. Author/burn/enjoy.

erase the DVD-RAM (or just the part that i've archived) and re-use it.

gculter = you will not 'lose another generation' when you record to the Panasonic, if nothing else the recording will look BETTER THAN YOUR ORIGINAL TAPE. Yes, I said the same thing you are thinking, but it's true. The Panasonic has a built-in TBC and Y-C seperation of the video signal. It will do miracles on old tapes (you should see what it did with my KTMA Mystery Science Theater 3000 tapes).

DVD-Ram is just the 'transfer medium' here. If you don't want to go the PC route for making the final DVD-R's, then go with the HS2. You can edit commercials out on the HD, join multiple programs (episodes) together in one menu, test it ALL out and THEN commit to a DVD-R - burning from the HD to the DVD.

As for the price of media. I've used about 500 of a brand called LEDA available at www.shop4tech.com for $69/100, $199/300. I've probably farkled about a dozen, all of them my fault.

Lemme see.. yes there is a time delay on the 'finalization' of a disc when you use the E30/HS2 to write them, and you have to finalize them before you can play them in another machine.. but then, that another reason I use the RAM route.. I do the authoring MY way and under MY control.. when I finish a disc, it's finished.

I agree wholeheartedly with bkwest, ditch the VHS dinosaur (after you feed the Panny all the tapes) and get with the future

(aside to bkwest - yes it does handle 480i/p.. and I've got a way worked out to record 16:9 anamorphic on it (requires the DVD-Ram>PC step and a tiny 'tweak' before you author.. but it works)

[bkwest]

Kewl... I just received an email back for tech@echostar.com and they totally didn't read the question I asked. They replied telling me that they are trying to include an update in the future remotes. But that wasn't what I asked. I just want a code that I can put in the VCR setup on the receiver. I could care less about the remote working the box. I just want the satellite receiver to start and stop(irblast) the DMR-E30 when I tag it in the program guide! :)

PS: I will keep ya updated. PPV -> DVD-R rocks btw

[Rick P]

bk..

doubt it will happen, the E20/E30/HS2 are considered DVD PLAYERS, not VCR's (I know, I know.. just try to explain it to a marketing type) so DHYB. I know of at least one person that is working on a 'relay box'.. it has (effectively) an IR Blaster IN and OUT. It will respond to the code fed to it (ie. a Record/Stop command) for VCR 'X'.. and will re-blast OUT the E20/E30/HS2 Record/Stop code.

He thinks it's simple... we shall see.. if he dosen't get it cracking soon, I may approach the wizards at the AVSForums to see if someone over there has the knowledge to make the HW.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Rick P
DVD-Ram is just the 'transfer medium' here. If you don't want to go the PC route for making the final DVD-R's, then go with the HS2. You can edit commercials out on the HD, join multiple programs (episodes) together in one menu, test it ALL out and THEN commit to a DVD-R - burning from the HD to the DVD.


But the HS2 being several hunded $ more expensive than the E30, makes it less economical. For many people $500 seems to be the point where I will or won't look at a product. I finally went for the DVD-R/RW drive and DV bridge when it total fell under $500. But If all their next models would support DVD-RW instead of DVD-RAM as the medium then they would get the benefit of much largers support by DVD Players, ability to erase a media when you want and using a media that is growing in popularity. Yes you could as youstated re-burn it to DVD-R, but that is an extra step, and you do that enough and it becomes annoying. A device that will write directly to DVD-RW just like the unit does to DVD-RAM and then that DVD-RW was useable in 70% of the DVD Players out there would be better IMHO. Technically I don't know if it would even be possible as the DVD-RAM may be much more flexible than the RW???

[Rick P]

Ah... you're talking apples and oranges (or is that Apples and Intels?).

I said the HS2 had an extra feature. the 40GB drive. Other than that the HS2 and the E30 are IDENTICAL. Identical. Same thing.

Now pay attention, keep you hands and feet inside the ride.

Using EITHER an E30 or HS2 you can record DIRECTLY to a DVD-R disc. No intermediate stops necessary. You can do LIMITED editing (simple triming of commercials and the start end of programs). This editing is GOP accurate (not frame accurate) it's a limitation of the MPEG2 since it's ALREADY WRITTEN to the disc. You can record multiple programs to the disc, each as a separate entity on the disc. You can do all this BEFORE YOU FINALIZE THE DISC. Once it's finalized.. it's.. er.. final. You will have a very simple menu on the disc that allows you to choose which program you wish to play. Simplicity. ANYTHING THAT HAS THE MPEG2 STREAMS ALREADY ON THE DVD-R/RW Medium will behave that way. Don't try to talk around it. So says Bruce Hornsbey.

ON THE HS2 you have the OPTION of recording to the HD INSTEAD. You also have the option of doing a HIGH SPEED COPY from the HD to a DVD-RAM disc and from DVD-RAM back to the HD (incase the HD gets full and you haven't had time to edit the way you want). On the HS2 you can do FRAME ACCURATE EDITING of the programs. This is because the streams have not been committed to a -R/-RW disc yet. It's still on the HD. You can combine multiple programs on the HD to make one 'disc'. You can then unload this disc to DVD-RAM (high speed) or DVD-R (1x speed). When it copies from the HD > DVD-R/RAM it can actually do the smart-reencoding around the edits to make the GOP's legal (I'm not going to get into the details of MPEG2 encoding, but that's the way it works and you can't change it).

IF you record to a DVD-RAM disc (EITHER on a E20/E30/HS2) you can then take that disc to a PC and extract the data (if you don't want the LF-D321 DVD-R/RAM drive, the LF-D211 DVD-ROM/DVD-RAM drive can be had for < $110 on ebay if you look around). One you get the MPEG stream on the PC harddrive, the sky's the limit. DVD Workshop is the most bang for the buck for PC Authoring sofware Want multi level menus? go for it. Choose your own back ground music for a menu? No problem. Motion backgrounds for the menus? Yeehaw! Motion Buttons? All you want.

It's all a matter of what you want. If you just want to dump straight to tape - E30/DVD-R

If you want to record for fine editing on the PC later - E30/DVD-RAM/LF-D311/211.

If you want to do a little more than straight dumps, but not go over the top - HS2. has the functionality of an edit station and the DVD burner in the PC.

"I'm ready for my close up Mr Demille!" - HS2/DVD-RAM/LF-D311/211.

DVD-RW is a red herring IMHO as far as set top boxes go. It's more expensive than DVD-R. Not as flexible as DVD-RAM.

Oh.. and all except the lowest price Panasonic DVD settop boxes will play DVD-RAM.

DVD-RW is NOT as flexible as DVD-RAM. Period. Case in point -
My E20 records several programs from another receiver that dosen't have a PVR function. The E20 timers fire just like a VCR on DVD-RAM's with about 5 minutes slop on the sides. When I get a chance, I sit down and check the disc. If one of the programs is one I already have, I erase THAT PROGRAM and the rest of the space is immediately re-claimed (can't do that on RW, you have to erase the whole disc) and I can record something else on it. I can take and 'trim' the programs on the disc and clip off the slop on each end - the space is immediately reclaimed (can't do that one RW.. ) Let's say I have three programs on two discs that I want to keep, I can copy the raw data from disc one and have it appened to disc two (on the PC) and it will seamlessly add it to the existing programs (can't do that on -RW).

I hope I've made my point. DVD-RW is not the be all and end all.. neither is DVD-RAM.. but it's close...

E30/HS2+DVD-RAM+PC Drive = DNP (durn near perfection) and Flexibility.

Q.E.D.

[Rick P]

oh...and the 'HS2 is more expensive and not as economical'. I'm reminded what I used to ask in the IT business...

"What's your data worth?"

in this case, what's your time worth.

Checking on www.pricegrabber.com -

current low price on the E30 is $493
current low price on the HS2 is $764

for $271 in the HS2 you are getting
(a) longer timer records (2 hours on a RAM, 18 hours on the HD)
(b) content management (move programs on/off the HD if you need to)
(c) more than simple editing/authoring facilities (I almost forgot, you can load your own pictures to use as menu background or to MAKE SLIDESHOW DVD'S using the PCIMA slot on the HS2)
(d) or you can burn straight to the DVD_R if you want.


so to get the EQUIVALENT functionality on just the E30

add

40GB drive = $100
LF-D321 = $200
Authoring software = $100 (low end, DVD Movie Factory)

$400 vs $271

what's your time worth again?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Rick P
oh...and the 'HS2 is more expensive and not as economical'. I'm reminded what I used to ask in the IT business...

"What's your data worth?"

in this case, what's your time worth.


Well you are answering my question for me, which you have no right to. Like I said, $500 is the cutoff price where I probably won't go for a piece of equipment. I don't care how much stuff you say makes it worth the price, not to me. I'm not going to spend that amount of money, thats the end of the argument. You can justfiy to me a $1000 or $2000 piece of equipment with your logic, but I'm still not ever going to pay that. And the $500 price range that I often use as my litmus test is not an uncommon issue for other consumers. Probably lower than $500 for many others.

I can tell you for a fact that I looked at both units a few months ago, I didn't want one without a hard drive even though the price was acceptable and the one with the hard drive was too expensive. SO I DIDN'T BUY IT. Thats the only anecdote I need.

And Having worked in the IT business for 15 years, I can tell you that the answer you got to "What's Your Data Worth" was often not what you wanted to hear. If the price is outside the "Oh, I can sign for that without my manager's approval" you often didn't get the product if your management dosen't see it worth it. And for me that line at home is $500.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Rick P
Now pay attention, keep you hands and feet inside the ride.


We are impressed with ourselves arent we (and that's the royal we) :rolleyes:

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Rick P
Oh.. and all except the lowest price Panasonic DVD settop boxes will play DVD-RAM.



I don't care if DVD-RAM is superior to DVD+-RW. Thats the same argument with Beta vs VHS. For me it is #s.

Will my Sony or any other Non-Panasonic play DVD-RAM? Not the ones I have. Will they in the future models???
I know they will play DVD+-RW now. So if I want an eraseable format that will work with my existing systems, DVD+-RW is what I would want. I wouldn't want to take every DVD-RAM and burn it to a DVD-R every time I want to loan the data to a friend. At least if it works with DVD+-RW, I can loan it out, have a good chance it will work (but not 100%, I know that). And when I tired of the data on that DVD+-RW I can erase it and reuse it.

I don't want to be locked into a particular brand.

[Rick P]

Originally posted by gcutler


We are impressed with ourselves arent we (and that's the royal we) :rolleyes:

No.. just convinced.. after 10 years in the video production, 30 years in IT in Systems Software devlopment and 40 years of trying to get people to understand simple things when they are 'convinced' and no amount of facts/logic will even give them the oppertinuty to see past the end of their nose.. :bang:

impressed ?? :shrug: I wish... just experienced in what I speak of. :thats:

have fun.... :wave:

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Rick P


No.. just convinced.. after 10 years in the video production, 30 years in IT in Systems Software devlopment and 40 years of trying to get people to understand simple things when they are 'convinced' and no amount of facts/logic will even give them the oppertinuty to see past the end of their nose.. :bang:


Maybe your convincing and logic skills are not as sharp as you think they are. :nono:

Maybe it is a matter of personal preference, and people can have valid perferences and priorities that don't match yours without you needing to convince them. :welcome:

[Rick P]

Ya see.. I could not care less what anyone thinks my 'convincing' skills are... I go by results..... I've just been using the equipment I speak of, the techniques I speak of and the tools I'm talking about. Done about 300 discs so far. Speaking from experience, not theory..

Naw.. not sharp at all... :rotfl:

enjoy the frustration... I spent almost two years doing the capture to the HD with a capture card tango before I decided my time was more valuable

Have fun ... :wave:

----------------------------------

"We are not trying to entertain the critics. I'll take my chances with the public." - Walt Disney

[gcutler]

So if you've been doing this for 2 years already, it is obvious that you were willing to spend or had alot more money available to spend on this type of equipment (as this tech has only been withing my budget of $500 for a few months). I'm sorry that many of us do not have the liquid assets to be as time efficient as you. Again you fail to see that not everyone has the money or is willing to spend the money you have spent on the equipment. Hey, I'll agree with you if you send me $500 to cover what I can't afford. The fact that you can't even consider that other people have a ligitimate inability to spend the $250-$500 you consider worth your time, just shows how closed minded you are to those who are not as fortunate as you income wise. What car do you drive? Perhaps you can explain to us who drive economy cars that we are wrong in that arena as well. Since you can't seem to accept that people have different needs and requirements. Your arrogance amazes me!!!

Is "Let them eat Cake" your favorite statement in history?

[motjes2]

I own an HS2. Best investment I ever made. I paid $765 and I have no regrets at all. This is interested conversation but I think it turned the wrong somewhere along the line. If you ever try this product, you will never regret paying for it. Just my $0.02.

[gcutler]

Not that it was ever said that it wasn't a great product, with some personal prefences that I would like changed. But being told by the other poster your not thinking logically if you can't afford or won't pay $765 for it is pretty arrogant.

But you are right, we should get back to talking about the product.

If the Hard Drive product supported DVD+-RW and works its way down to $500, then it is a homerun and an easy purchase for me. It is assured that the price will probably reach down below $500 eventually as the PC DVD+-RW drives have started to fall below $250, and the tech is getting more and more popular. The support of DVD+-RW would be up in the air as that is obviously something that would have to be built into the burner and that may not be as economical (I have seen few or no combo DVD+-R/DVD+-RW/DVD-RAM units, don't know if that is because RW and RAM on same drive makes it tooo expensive or they can't live together???)

Is the Authoring SW upgradable?

[Rick P]

the SW in the HS2 is not upgradable (yet), and if it is, it will be a Firmware Update.

oh.. and good quality blank DVD-R's are now down below the $0.70 mark (just ordered a three 100 disc spindles for $199).

I never said the HS2 was your only choice. You already have a burner. Get the E30 (below the magic $500) and A LF-D211 (RAM drive, not the Rambo Combo). Viola.. best of both worlds. But as long as you keep fixating on the $500 line and the +RW aspect, you'll never get past where you are. It wasn't a matter of being 'fluid'.. it was a matter of finally realizing that it took 4-6 times longer doing the analog>digital capture, edit, re-render/encode, deal with non compliant streams, author, burn.

My time was worth something. When before it could take 3-4 hours (1 hr to record on DP, 1 hour to capture realtime, 20-50 minutes to edit and cleanup, 40 minutes to author, 45 minutes to burn) a 1 hour program... something had to change. Before I got the HS2, I could record once (straight to the DVD-R) and it's done in realtime. Now the HS2 can record UNATTENDED if I set it on a timer, takes 10 minutes to edit and can burn off the disc UNATTENDED. Or I can put it on RAM and do finer work AT MY LEISURE.

And no.. 'let them eat cake' is not my favorite statement in history... but some that show the ability to 'think ahead' and 'see beyond the now' are.....

"You can't put a price tag on Creativity" - Walt Disney

or not....

"Who the h*** wants to hear actors talk?"
-------- H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
-------- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
--------- Western Union internal memo, 1876

"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible."
--------- A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service.(Smith went on to form a little compay called Federal Express Corp.)


And since I do value my time in productive ways... :bang:
so ends this discussion... :wave:

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Rick P
But as long as you keep fixating on the $500 line and the +RW aspect, you'll never get past where you are.

but some that show the ability to 'think ahead' and 'see beyond the now' are.....

And since I do value my time in productive ways... :bang:
so ends this discussion... :wave:

Not By A Longshot!!!

And yet you continue to show your arrogance!!! There is a difference between those who do not see the quality and those who cannot take advantage of it because they cannot afford it yet. But you fail to see that difference, you basque in your ignorance of the fact.. Perhaps your money has come a little too easily to you as you don't see that those without as much as you have are a little more limited in their choices, and are not limited in their ability to 'think ahead' . $250 extra may be nothing to you, but it can be alot to others, and that $500 expense max may be something for you to scoff at, but there are many families where that $500 expense only comes after much saving and discussion. :bang:

I'm sorry my lack of ability to spend 50% more than what I budgeted makes me someone without insight by your definition.

[rbonzer]

When are these stand-alone DVD recorders going to be able to double as an external computer DVD drive? I want to be able to connect it to the PC and use it as well. That way I only have to buy one. A nice little firewire port on the back...