View Full Version : HD or UPCONVERSION?
This subject has probably been discussed to death here but I'm new and haven't seen anything....
With all the anticipation of the new HD Channels on D*, how much of what we're really going to be seeing is native HD (i.e. shot in 1080i or 720p) as opposed to an "uprez" of their SD library? All those History Channel shows, for example----I gotta believe that most of their library was shot in SD. Same with many of the others. Are we in for a big let-down?
Realistically you will see more upconversion the first 6 or more months. As time go by the number of true HD feeds will increase. Howevery most of these company's have already been working on their HD library.
Earl Bonovich
09-17-07, 12:10 PM
Actually History Channel, NGC, TLC, and others... have been shooting most of their original programming in HD for the last two years or so.
So it might not be as much "upconverting" as you may think.
There most certainly will be some... and the percentage will vary by network... but now that they have a true HD outlet... given time, you should see the percentage swing... similar to what we have seen in network TV
Ed Campbell
09-17-07, 12:15 PM
And there are many programs in the nature/documentary format that were shot on film - or, nowadays, done with digital cameras - which let them down-res to SD 4x3; but, the HD 16x9 is already in the can, so to speak.
Actually History Channel, NGC, TLC, and others... have been shooting most of their original programming in HD for the last two years or so.
So it might not be as much "upconverting" as you may think.
There most certainly will be some... and the percentage will vary by network... but now that they have a true HD outlet... given time, you should see the percentage swing... similar to what we have seen in network TV
Yeah, I believe that's true. My concern comes from my own experience in seeing these networks continuing to shoot stuff in SD. But hopefully they'll come around and understand that SD is not state of the art.
Still, it boggles my mind that networks still shoot live stuff in SD---for example---why are all 3 of the network Sunday morning News/Talk shows (Meet the Press, Face the Nation, This Week) still in SD when they're shot in the same studios that are already used for HD transmissions of their network morning shows? Boggles the mind unless the hosts and guests are worried about how they'll look in HD!
And there are many programs in the nature/documentary format that were shot on film - or, nowadays, done with digital cameras - which let them down-res to SD 4x3; but, the HD 16x9 is already in the can, so to speak.
Is it just me or does source originally shot in film and transfered to HD look hardly any better than when it's transfered to SD?
To me, film is not an ideal source for HD. In fact, I tend to find that an SD DVD viewed at 480p looks as good or better than a film transfered to HD. Has anyone else found this to be the case?
if they are up-converted . . . stretch-o-vision or no?
personally, up-conversion doesn't bother me at all, it is the stretch of 4x3 content
pdxBeav
09-17-07, 12:26 PM
if they are up-converted . . . stretch-o-vision or no?
personally, up-conversion doesn't bother me at all, it is the stretch of 4x3 content
I agree 100%. I'll also add that while upconverted SD isn't HD it sure does look a lot better than the overly compressed SD channels that DirecTV sends out.
Is it just me or does source originally shot in film and transfered to HD look hardly any better than when it's transfered to SD?
To me, film is not an ideal source for HD. In fact, I tend to find that an SD DVD viewed at 480p looks as good or better than a film transfered to HD. Has anyone else found this to be the case?
Film should nearly always give the best HD. Of course it does depend on the granularity of the negative but usually much better definition than even 1080p can give us.
It does all depend on the digitizing resolution when they convert it and some still digitize in SD then try to upconvert for the HD.
But if you see some old WW2 films that were transferred to HD properly they are amazing to see.
Max_Pauer
09-17-07, 12:28 PM
Is it just me or does source originally shot in film and transfered to HD look hardly any better than when it's transfered to SD?
To me, film is not an ideal source for HD. In fact, I tend to find that an SD DVD viewed at 480p looks as good or better than a film transfered to HD. Has anyone else found this to be the case?
The resolution of 35mm is equal to or greater than what is shot on HD video. What you are seeing when viewing film in HD is likely film grain and other side-effects of the film process, not an issue with resolution. Keep in mind that film makers didn't start shooting on HD video until it was able to get close to the resolution of 35mm film.
EDIT: F1 beat me to it. :)
digibob
09-17-07, 12:31 PM
I edited a show for The History Channel, 3 years ago, about Jedediah Smith that was all HD.
Film should nearly always give the best HD. Of course it does depend on the granularity of the negative but usually much better definition than even 1080p can give us.
It does all depend on the digitizing resolution when they convert it and some still digitize in SD then try to upconvert for the HD.
But if you see some old WW2 films that were transferred to HD properly they are amazing to see.
Well, to be honest, all I really care about is seeing F1 races in HD on Speed HD! Any idea what their plan is?
Zellster
09-17-07, 12:35 PM
Jedediah Smith
Or what it Jedediah Springfield? :lol:
Directvlover
09-17-07, 12:47 PM
Still, it boggles my mind that networks still shoot live stuff in SD---for example---why are all 3 of the network Sunday morning News/Talk shows (Meet the Press, Face the Nation, This Week) still in SD when they're shot in the same studios that are already used for HD transmissions of their network morning shows? Boggles the mind unless the hosts and guests are worried about how they'll look in HD!
For some reason i think that one of those Sunday shows is in HD...i think it's NBC's...but then again it could be FOX. Not sure, it's been awhile since i've seen a Sunday morning talk show, but i seem to remember being surprised to find one of them in HD.
chrisfowler99
09-17-07, 12:48 PM
if they are up-converted . . . stretch-o-vision or no?
personally, up-conversion doesn't bother me at all, it is the stretch of 4x3 content
My bet would be that TBS-HD will be stretch-o-vision like TNT-HD currently is for non-HD material.
Still, it boggles my mind that networks still shoot live stuff in SD---for example---why are all 3 of the network Sunday morning News/Talk shows (Meet the Press, Face the Nation, This Week) still in SD when they're shot in the same studios that are already used for HD transmissions of their network morning shows? Boggles the mind unless the hosts and guests are worried about how they'll look in HD!
I think all 3 of the network Sunday morning shows originate from Washington and not their main New York studios. While NBC's Today and ABC's GMA are both HD, CBS's morning show is still SD. Only NBC is doing their nightly news in HD.
I agree that the networks seem to be dragging their feet in switching to HD. It seems very strange that ABC's The View is in HD while their evening news is not.
For some reason i think that one of those Sunday shows is in HD...i think it's NBC's...but then again it could be FOX. Not sure, it's been awhile since i've seen a Sunday morning talk show, but i seem to remember being surprised to find one of them in HD.
Definitely not NBC's.
tomcat11
09-17-07, 01:26 PM
Well, to be honest, all I really care about is seeing F1 races in HD on Speed HD! Any idea what their plan is?
I'm totally with you on the F1 in HD, It should already have been done. I watched Lemans with Steve McQueen on HDNet and for an old film it looked pretty dam good.
I'm totally with you on the F1 in HD, It should already have been done. I watched Lemans with Steve McQueen on HDNet and for an old film it looked pretty dam good.
Yeah, started watching LeMans last night but the Girlfriend vetoed it! I would think that most of the European F1 races are shot in PAL which is better quality than NTSC SD. Even giving us an HD uprez of the PAL source would be better than what we're getting now.
Who's your driver? Mine's Kimi.... Yesterday was a good day!
Ace Deprave
09-17-07, 01:31 PM
Well, to be honest, all I really care about is seeing F1 races in HD on Speed HD! Any idea what their plan is?
I was wondering the same thing this weekend while watching Spa. I'm anxious to see them flat out through Eau Rouge in HD! :D
I was wondering the same thing this weekend while watching Spa. I'm anxious to see them flat out through Eau Rouge in HD! :D
You'd think that the Fuji GP would be shot in HD, wouldn't you? How awesome would it be to get that feed via Speed HD (assuming we have the channel in 2 weeks!).
I did hear that all IRL races will be in HD next year if you follow that series, too.
richlife
09-17-07, 03:09 PM
For some reason i think that one of those Sunday shows is in HD...i think it's NBC's...but then again it could be FOX. Not sure, it's been awhile since i've seen a Sunday morning talk show, but i seem to remember being surprised to find one of them in HD.
If it was NBC, how could you tell the difference between HD and SD?
flipptyfloppity
09-17-07, 04:32 PM
It's gonna be mostly upconverts. See the CNBC thing.
Earl talks about stations making most of their original content in HD for the last two years. But most of these stations air very little original content. Even if they put 100% of their original content in HD, it would only amount to a small fraction of the total content aired on the stations.
Mikehdtv
09-17-07, 05:32 PM
Is it just me or does source originally shot in film and transfered to HD look hardly any better than when it's transfered to SD?
To me, film is not an ideal source for HD. In fact, I tend to find that an SD DVD viewed at 480p looks as good or better than a film transfered to HD. Has anyone else found this to be the case?
The "average resoultion" of a frame of 35mm film is aprox 2400 lines depending on the stock as opposed to HD's
1080. So film is an ideal source for HD.
Mike
The "average resoultion" of a frame of 35mm film is aprox 2400 lines depending on the stock as opposed to HD's
1080. So film is an ideal source for HD.
Mike
Yeah but part of the idea of film is softness of focus, grain, etc., you know... the properties that MAKE it film (the capture of light). I have a D-VHS player and I've A/B'd several films with my old DVD player. Seriously---maybe it's just films that were actually shot on film but they look just as good (and sometimes better---that is, more "film-like") in 480p than they do in 1080i.
Don't get me wrong---I LOVE HD---I'm an HD nut. But, for me, HD needs to have been SHOT in HD originally for it to really translate on a television.
I do know that a lot of directors are now shooting in HD and using film camera lenses....
tomcat11
09-20-07, 08:28 PM
Yeah, started watching LeMans last night but the Girlfriend vetoed it! I would think that most of the European F1 races are shot in PAL which is better quality than NTSC SD. Even giving us an HD uprez of the PAL source would be better than what we're getting now.
Who's your driver? Mine's Kimi.... Yesterday was a good day!
Same here, Kimi's the man. Win, loose or broke (last years car). The kid can fly
Tom Servo
09-20-07, 09:20 PM
Yeah but part of the idea of film is softness of focus, grain, etc., you know... the properties that MAKE it film (the capture of light). I have a D-VHS player and I've A/B'd several films with my old DVD player. Seriously---maybe it's just films that were actually shot on film but they look just as good (and sometimes better---that is, more "film-like") in 480p than they do in 1080i.
Don't get me wrong---I LOVE HD---I'm an HD nut. But, for me, HD needs to have been SHOT in HD originally for it to really translate on a television.
I do know that a lot of directors are now shooting in HD and using film camera lenses....
The 'shot HD' to 'presented HD' seems to offer the crispest picture, perhaps due to the lossless all digital chain (lossless until transmission, I guess.) Perhaps it's not the resolution, but the p/i that is causing problems with film transfers? I think films look better in progressive scan. If you have a 1080p Blu-ray player and TV, I imagine film transfers will look better. Have you tried watching films in 720p instead of 1080i or 480p?
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