Am I Imagining Things or What ???

[Janice805]

Yesterday I purchased a Sony 52" XBR4 LCD TV. I'm trying to evaluate whether or not it's gonna be a "keeper" before my 30 days is up. So, here's what's bugging me. I know it's got a better picture (and larger) picture than my old Sony 46V2500 LCD but when watching the new TV, I'm realllly noticing lots or artifacts, large box looking pixels during movement (only periodically and on some broadcasts), etc.

This new TV is supposed to not display that type of behavior, so I went to my old TV, and sure nuff, it's doing the same thing on the same channels.

Either, I never noticed it before because the screen's a little smaller and not as bright, OR, is DTV overcompressing or doing something with their signal lately to cause this in preparation for their new channels????

I absolutely LOVE the TV and would hate to return it thinking it's the TV, if in fact, something else is going on. (a quick example is a game right now on Ch. 73 there's a game, and I keep seeing these artifacts or pixel boxes with certain movements).

Help ... TIA.

[rrrick8]

I've got a 52"XBR3 and the picture is absolutely flawless.
Better than my Hitachi Plasma and Philips LCD.(And I thought they were great until I got this)

Check out different forums that offer help and insight into these specific models.

AVS has a good one on Sony XBRs

[VeniceDre]

LCDs are notorius for motion artifacting during live sports... Make sure your sharpness level is properly adjusted (minimum possible) and any edge enhancement is set to off. I'm watching the same game on a 50" Panasonic 1080p Plasma and I'm not having any issues.

[Greg Alsobrook]

congrats on your new tv... very nice choice... sounds like what you're seeing is a little bit of "ghosting".. lcd's are known for this... moreso with older ones, but new ones can do it to... but i wouldn't think there was anything wrong with your new tv if your old one is doing it as well...

[Janice805]

Thanks for the quick responses, BUT ... "all" my LCD tv's are suddenly doing this. Has anyone checked Ch. 73 tonight (for example) and looked closely? I don't "believe" I've ever noticed it this bad before on any of them.

[Janice805]

Oh, and I know about the other forums. That's where I discovered this "nice" gift to myself (maybe a gift, maybe not). I posted here though because I'm thinking now it's a Direct TV issue???? Yes/No?

[compnurd]

It is not LCD's as 95% of LCD's made now dont ghost or very rarely do. I have a 32 and a 42 LCD and i have no artifacts on 73. It could just be the TV pointing out the inperfections in the signal. Do you see it on your HD locals?

[rrrick8]

Thanks for the quick responses, BUT ... "all" my LCD tv's are suddenly doing this. Has anyone checked Ch. 73 tonight (for example) and looked closely? I don't "believe" I've ever noticed it this bad before on any of them.

Oh, and I know about the other forums. That's where I discovered this "nice" gift to myself (maybe a gift, maybe not). I posted here though because I'm thinking now it's a Direct TV issue???? Yes/No?

Ok, my bad then. I thought you were griping about the TV .

[Greg Alsobrook]

you do have this hooked up with an HDMI cable... right?? by the way.. checking 73 right now... gotta wait on some fast action..

[rlgold88]

Yesterday I purchased a Sony 52" XBR4 LCD TV. I'm trying to evaluate whether or not it's gonna be a "keeper" before my 30 days is up. So, here's what's bugging me. I know it's got a better picture (and larger) picture than my old Sony 46V2500 LCD but when watching the new TV, I'm realllly noticing lots or artifacts, large box looking pixels during movement (only periodically and on some broadcasts), etc.

This new TV is supposed to not display that type of behavior, so I went to my old TV, and sure nuff, it's doing the same thing on the same channels.

Either, I never noticed it before because the screen's a little smaller and not as bright, OR, is DTV overcompressing or doing something with their signal lately to cause this in preparation for their new channels????

I absolutely LOVE the TV and would hate to return it thinking it's the TV, if in fact, something else is going on. (a quick example is a game right now on Ch. 73 there's a game, and I keep seeing these artifacts or pixel boxes with certain movements).

Help ... TIA.

Sometimes I notice the above depending on the programming. Up close on my 60 inch xbr2 sony sxrd I notice the same through d* but mainly sd. I doubt its the tv. Not trying to be funny but try to move a little further away and see if you nitice it the ghosting. I had to rearrang my living room to get a little bit further away from the tv now its the best picture i ever saw.

[Tom Servo]

DirecTV has compressed the stink out of all their SD channels for years, and sometimes their HD channels look pretty awful too.

I've found the blocky-ness to be like audio compression - once it's pointed out to someone, they'll always notice it. Perhaps the larger TV brought out the compression artifacts you've always looked over on the other sets...

My parents went through a time of adjustment after they upgraded from an old analogue rear projection set to a new hi-def rear projection set. I've always had almost the same size tube TV (SD only, so far) and it hasn't been a big deal - I've always been sensitive to the blockiness of digital artifacting (and the garbage sound of low bitrate audio files too.)

Fiddling with the sharpness and edge enhancement, as Venice noted, is the best thing to do on all your sets.

[Greg Alsobrook]

watching on my 37" sony plasma.. i don't really see it right now... i have seen if before though... usually when the camera is moving quickly... i notice it more on baskteball actually...

[bigtiii]

Yesterday I purchased a Sony 52" XBR4 LCD TV. I'm trying to evaluate whether or not it's gonna be a "keeper" before my 30 days is up. So, here's what's bugging me. I know it's got a better picture (and larger) picture than my old Sony 46V2500 LCD but when watching the new TV, I'm realllly noticing lots or artifacts, large box looking pixels during movement (only periodically and on some broadcasts), etc.

This new TV is supposed to not display that type of behavior, so I went to my old TV, and sure nuff, it's doing the same thing on the same channels.

Either, I never noticed it before because the screen's a little smaller and not as bright, OR, is DTV overcompressing or doing something with their signal lately to cause this in preparation for their new channels????

I absolutely LOVE the TV and would hate to return it thinking it's the TV, if in fact, something else is going on. (a quick example is a game right now on Ch. 73 there's a game, and I keep seeing these artifacts or pixel boxes with certain movements).

Help ... TIA.

Yeah the TV is the problem. Please send it to me immediately as to save yourself years of grief. I can handle it....I promise. :grin:

[Janice805]

LOL Bigiii ... You might be all be right. Maybe, I just never noticed it on the other TV's because they're older and smaller. I was watching Deal or No Deal on NBC and just noticed the same thing (on all the TV's). Oh God. This TV is supposed to have some widget for anti-motion or something like that. That's what I paid for. The WIDGET is supposed to make that problem go away.

Aarg. OK, I'll watch TV some more, sleep on it, then re-evaluate tomorrow when I'm rested. It really would kill me (because of the picture quality without the movement issue) to return it.

By the way. Connected via HDMI on my HR20-700.

[cnmsales]

Also might try borrowing someones PS3 and play a Bluray on it.

[Greg Alsobrook]

LOL Bigiii ... You might be all be right. Maybe, I just never noticed it on the other TV's because they're older and smaller. I was watching Deal or No Deal on NBC and just noticed the same thing (on all the TV's). Oh God. This TV is supposed to have some widget for anti-motion or something like that. That's what I paid for. The WIDGET is supposed to make that problem go away.

Aarg. OK, I'll watch TV some more, sleep on it, then re-evaluate tomorrow when I'm rested. It really would kill me (because of the picture quality without the movement issue) to return it.

By the way. Connected via HDMI on my HR20-700.

no need to return it...

[Greg Alsobrook]

Also might try borrowing someones PS3 and play a Bluray on it.

good point... watch "Ice Age" and you'll smack yourself for considering returning it...

[Jeremy W]

Maybe, I just never noticed it on the other TV's because they're older and smaller.
That's exactly what it is. A bigger TV means bigger blocks, which are easier to see. Once you saw them on the big screen, you knew what to look for on the small screen. So then you could see them everywhere. Your eyes simply got trained to see the blocks, it has nothing to do with the TV.

[Cybercowboy]

LOL Bigiii ... You might be all be right. Maybe, I just never noticed it on the other TV's because they're older and smaller. I was watching Deal or No Deal on NBC and just noticed the same thing (on all the TV's). Oh God. This TV is supposed to have some widget for anti-motion or something like that. That's what I paid for. The WIDGET is supposed to make that problem go away.

Aarg. OK, I'll watch TV some more, sleep on it, then re-evaluate tomorrow when I'm rested. It really would kill me (because of the picture quality without the movement issue) to return it.

By the way. Connected via HDMI on my HR20-700.

Get yourself an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player. That way you'll know two things:

a) what your TV is truly capable of...

b) how bad most broadcast signals are. :lol:

[Janice805]

Good idea cypercowboy. Then, the question is -- what do I need Direct TV for ??? :)

[Jeremy W]

the question is -- what do I need Direct TV for ??? :)
Everything else.

[FlyBono24]

Some of the SD feeds on FSN are so blurry they are almost unwatchable... that's why a lot of us are looking forward to full-time HD on the FSN channels!!

[paulman182]

That's exactly what it is. A bigger TV means bigger blocks, which are easier to see. Once you saw them on the big screen, you knew what to look for on the small screen. So then you could see them everywhere. Your eyes simply got trained to see the blocks, it has nothing to do with the TV.

Jeremy is right. I have never noticed any motion problems on my HD LCD TVs that were not the fault of the provider.

Perhaps if one watched sports OTA, the TV would be the limiting factor, but not with the satellite providers and modern LCDs.

[MIMOTech]

The bigger the display area and/or the closer you are to the display, the more you will see artifact noise. This is the result of not enough data rate for the amount of data needed to refresh the picture. Most noticeable during fast changes in the image. HD-DVD and Blueray disks are almost 100 percent devoid of this problem due to the use of Mpeg 4 and a very high data rate of about 38Mbs+. DTV with the use of statistical multiplexers gets about 14 to 19 Mbs. The statmuxes tend to average out the data rate depending on the demand of all the channels being processed by it. This keeps the overal payload to the transponder at a level that does not exceed the transponders throughput limits. More channels on a transponder the more it will cut back individual channel streams. All this is programed by DTV based on the contracted peak resolution negotiated with the program provider.

[Stuart Sweet]

Get yourself an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player. That way you'll know two things:

a) what your TV is truly capable of...

b) how bad most broadcast signals are. :lol:

Basically agree with this, but if you're not up for the cost of a player, try testing Discovery HD Theater or HDNet for quality.

[MalibuRacing]

This was discussed at length in another thread several days ago.

I have a 56" RPTV, so the large screen causes it to be pretty noticeable sometimes during fast action scenes. My local HD channels are through my cable company (use them for internet also, can't receive OTA because of a mountain). It is as bad or worse through my cable company. If I view a HDDVD, or even a DVD for that matter, it looks amazing. I can only hope that PQ improves when the new sat comes on-line.

[MalibuRacing]

Basically agree with this, but if you're not up for the cost of a player, try testing Discovery HD Theater or HDNet for quality.


I have noticed that 1080i broadcast do have less of a problem with this. Or, am I just imagining it?

[Fuzzybear]

Return it for 120hz LCD and see if can detect the judder or motion blur, otherwise wait until the compression algorithims improve in the coming months/years.

I have an LCD and the motion blur can be ridiculous sometimes but I don't always see it on my plasma set.

[Janice805]

This new set IS the latest XBR4 with the 120hz and some type of "motion" something-or-other. And yes, I was watching Discovery HD yesterday when I first noticed the large pixel box thingys. It's not only on FAST motion, but sometimes even lesser motion (like something popping in and out of the picture).

Gadzooks. I spent the bigger bucks for this new generation TV and now see MORE disturbances than on my old sets. OK, ready now for coffee and go see how things look today. I've just gotta figure this out.

[elaclair]

That's exactly what it is. A bigger TV means bigger blocks, which are easier to see. Once you saw them on the big screen, you knew what to look for on the small screen. So then you could see them everywhere. Your eyes simply got trained to see the blocks, it has nothing to do with the TV.

I think Jeremy is right. There's actually a term for this. I forget what it's called, but it's basically a memory trait of the human brain. It's something like hysteresis memory recognition...but anyway. The easiest way to explain it is like this. You never notice any new shiny Honda Ridgelines on the road....until you buy one. Then you see them EVERYWHERE. It's not that they weren't there before, it's just your mind did not perceive them as relevant at the time.

It's the same with the macro-blocking. Once your mind has registered it as relevant, you'll see it EVERYWHERE......(sigh)

[rlgold88]

This new set IS the latest XBR4 with the 120hz and some type of "motion" something-or-other. And yes, I was watching Discovery HD yesterday when I first noticed the large pixel box thingys. It's not only on FAST motion, but sometimes even lesser motion (like something popping in and out of the picture).

Gadzooks. I spent the bigger bucks for this new generation TV and now see MORE disturbances than on my old sets. OK, ready now for coffee and go see how things look today. I've just gotta figure this out.

This the problem these Highend TV's are so Good that you see all the imperfections of the broadcast. I had the same problem when I Got my sony sxrd xbr2. I am serios about what I said back in this forum. Stand back if possible your eyes will be tricked and you wont see all the imperfections as when your up close. I guarentee its not the TV. Did you try a quility transferred dvd in a 480p or upconvert dvd player. See if you see the things you see now (you wont). I really only notice these flaws on sd programming but sometimes hd broadcast when to closeto my tv looks bad, and then other times I can be right up on the T.v. and it looks great.

[Tom Servo]

Did you try a quility transferred dvd in a 480p or upconvert dvd player. See if you see the things you see now (you wont).


Pretty much any digitally-compressed video is going to exhibit the blocky pixelation that we see on satellite programming now. I've seen it on standard DVDs, even well mastered ones. It's even noticeable on off-the-air broadcasts, especially 1080i ones like NBC and CBS. You can't even escape this phenomenon with blu-ray or HD-DVD discs. It's just the nature of digitally compressed video. From what I have read, we humans are either supposed to not notice a loss of details during scenes with lots of movement, or our TVs are incapable of displaying those scenes crisply. I think that is poppycock; maybe some older slow-response LCDs might be a bit "draggy" but that has nothing to do with masking pixelation.

[Guitar Hero]

Check my sig, and you'll see what HDTV set I have.

These sets are notorious for being awful or exceptional. It's all in the 'fine tunning' and what source you feed it.

Are you feeding it standard def analog OTA? It's looks awful. This HDTV is not well known for displaying good analog SD.

However, fine tweaking will greatly improve your picture quality. Have at it for a few more days, until you get the hang of it. Feed it some HD and then make your judgments. Trust me, your opinion will change.

Trust me, these sets are AMAZING! I absolutely love mine. Keep it!

[RaiderEd]

I work at a local electronics store in the TV department, so I get a chance to play with all the new TV's when they come in, and I can say I have been very impressed with the XBR4. We have the 40 inch hooked up to a hard drive running a Sony sponsored 1080i loop (hooked up with component cables even) and it looks absolutely amazing. At home I have the Sony KDS-50A2000 (LCD rear-projection) hooked up to D* (duh) and I very rarely notice artifacting while watching HD, unless its for a split second during really fast motion. At work we have most of the TV's connected to Cox digital cable and the SD looks awful, like unwatchably awful. SD looks fantastic here at home in comparison. Some SD channels have more artifacting than others for me (chiller looks like crap for some reason) but for the most part everything looks great, not like HD of course, but great as SD goes.

But back to you. If you decide your not happy with the XBR4 the 50 inch Panasonic 1080p plasma, or the 50 in. Samsung 1080p plasma are both really nice, and since they arent LCD's, you should see a lot less artifacting. Just my 2 cents.

[uscboy]

Surprised no one has asked how close you're sitting to the TV.

I have the 46V2500 (same panel and backlight as the 46XBR2) and if you get
close enough you see digital noise on all channels. Of course, I have my
sharpness set so that it's right for viewing distance - not on the minimum, but not
high enough to see the artifacts from where I sit.

Also, there are different kinds of macroblocking - NBC and CBS HD sports show
blocking pretty bad during faster motion because it's 1080i. Those blocks are
going to look bigger than probably what you are describing though.

But see if you can play an HD DVD or (if you must) a Blue Ray on it and see what
you think of that. If that's fine, then just get on AVS and find some settings
suggestions and play around with the settings until you get the sharpness just
right for your viewing distance (which hopefully is 9-10ft or more with that set).

Also, I wouldn't dream of returning that Sony LCD for a plasma unless you have it
in a room with no windows. Ick.

[Janice805]

Thanks so much for all the info. I honestly thought it was my DTV signal (which is why I started in this forum). If it's not them messing around due to the new HD channels, then I need to hop over to the AVS forum and find out what my problem is. Well, not MY problem because that would take years, but, if all of this is normal for this set, or, if there's a problem (or calibration needed) before my 30 days is up I need to consult with the weenies over there to find out what settings they are using. I swear to God, I never noticed this before. It's so odd.

I must say it's a really beautiful set (both picture-wise, for the most part, and the look of the set). I can't wait for the NEW HD CHANNELS. Bring it on DTV. I have a set to "test" ... LOL.

By the way. The huge pixel boxes aren't necessarily during fast movement only, but when changing scenes, and, it is mostly while on HD channels. I thought this "movement" problem was what this TV handled (120-hz, etc.).

Someone asked how far away I am. I have it in "test" location right now until I figure out what I'm doing with it. I've been moving around the room (anywhere from 8' to 13') to see how it looks. If I get too far away (to avoid the HUGE pixel boxes), then I can't see the "definition" I'm paying DTV for (you know, HD?). Maybe if DTV gave me more HD channels to test? :)

If anyone has a good link to point me to for this set, I'd appreciate it. You all are so helpful, and I read this forum every day.

[davahad]

If you are not happy with the motion blur, etc. on the LCD I would recommend going with a Plasma as they really do work much better with fast moving objects. My neighbor saw my plasma (Pioneer 1120) and watched a couple of games and then went out and bought a high end LCD Flat Panel and returned it a week later as he couldn't stand the motion blur/artifacting during sports. He immediately replaced it with a Panasonic 42" which he loves and then added a Pioneer 50" Plasma and another 42" Panasonic Plasma to his home.

If you can still return get a Plasma (recommend Pioneer & Panasonic) and try it out and see the difference for yourself. You will notice a difference during sports!!

Good luck.