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1080i60 vs. 1080p30

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Programming' started by dorfd1, Oct 22, 2009.

  1. dorfd1

    dorfd1 Icon

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    Why broadcast in 1080i60 when 1080p30 will give the same or higher quality picture while using less bandwidth?
     
  2. litzdog911

    litzdog911 Well-Known Member

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    Mill Creek, WA
    Where did you see that?

    First off, there's no "1080i60" on DirecTV. 1080 interlaced is 30fps, so it would be 1080i@30fps. That's the normal 1080i HD video format.

    And DirecTV's 1080p movies are "1080p@24fps". This matches the native frame rate of film-based movies.
     
  3. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    For your little f do you mean "field" or "frame"? 1080 60i is 30 frames per second, but has 60 interlaced fields per second. The ATSC standard is of 1080 60i is probably what the OP meant.

    I also don't beleive the OP was asking what DirecTV was doing, just the difference between the two.

    Since the fields of a 1080 60i signal native 1920 by 540 and the 1080 30p fields are 1920 by 1080 and there are twice as many fields in the interlaced signal, the number of bits are the same. The difference comes in the way the television puts the pieces back together since each interlaced field is timed a 1/60th of a second and the progresive fields are 1/30th of a second, the is a known technical blur, not decernable by most folks eyes with interlaced projections (projection here is meant as showing the picture on whatever type HDTV), which technically makes the progressive picture better quality. However, I've never been able to decern the difference myself (I'm older than 40 and have to now wear glasses). This doesn't go into the differences in compression and the way devices decompress tranmitted signals. There are differences in error correction from MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 compressed streams and how they are displayed. However, getting the native components of each 1080 60i and 1080 30p, they have the same number of bits, though their compressions will be different (the transmitted streams are different) due to the differences between interlaced and progressive screens presentations.

    So, to answer the OP's question, the native bandwidth is the same however the quality of the progressive screen would technically be better but the likelihood of someone being able to tell the difference is slim. This goes into the expense of doing interlaced versus progressive screens. I would suspect at the time, it was expected the cost, when the standard was written, of interlaced would be less. Now a days though, I would think that progressive equipment is readily available and less expensive. But I have no idea about the differences in compression between an interlaced screen and progressive (someone else chime in).
     
  4. tkrandall

    tkrandall Hall Of Fame

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    I realize the 720p ATSC standard is 60 frames per second.

    So, any ideas why the ATSC standard decided to go with interlaced 1080i 60 fields per second versus a non interlaced 1080p 30 frames per second standard?

    Just curious.
     
  5. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    NTSC television has always been 60i, meaning 30 frames per second, with each frame divided into 2 fields, and each field being every other line of the screen. Due to the limitations of display technology on early TV sets, scanning every other line per refresh sweep made TV sets cheaper and made motion look more natural.

    60i was brought into HDTV technology because it was the existing standard, well understood, and supported by existing equipment. Remember that plenty of obsolete technology remains, even at the expense of performance and economics, in order to ensure BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. Anyone who has owned a computer for more than a few years understands this.

    The great thing about modern HDTVs is that they are *starting* to free us from some of these older, obsolete standards, as are other set-top boxes like Blu-Ray players and sat receivers.

    But analog NTSC TV has been around for 70+ years, so it's going to take a while to get rid of all of that legacy hardware, not to mention recorded media. But it's happening faster than a lot of people would have guessed.
     
  6. icr2002

    icr2002 Mentor

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    If all blu-ray players can do 1080p60 OR 1080p24 format, samsung does.:)

    Why not Direct tv.:eek2:

    My samsung blu ray player unit lets me choose to turn on 24 or leave it off.:D

    Works great on my hannsg 28 inch monitor with FULL 1080p function.

    IMHO this is a software issue NOT hardware.

    DTV could make it happen IF they wanted to.:mad:

    I think its time that us HD users demand BOTH formats.

    Blu Ray realizes that both formats are out there and they make the movies play whats best for the monitor/tv its connected to, Direct tv could also. They would also get way LESS complaints from new owners of inexpensive hdtvs/monitors also.

    But perhaps they are to stupid to try to do something for the customer.:nono2:
     
  7. cartrivision

    cartrivision Hall Of Fame

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    Because 1080p/30 doesn't give the "live video" look... it looks like film.
     
  8. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    1080p 30 is a part of the standard, so is 1080p 24. The only broadcasts I know of attempting this is DirecTV (perhaps DiSH??). As far as I'm aware no terrestrial transmissions use either, only 1080i and 720p for HD and 480p for ED.
     
  9. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    1080p 60 is not a part of the ATSC standard, you will never (likely) see a terrestrial (or satellite) transmission at 1080p 60.
     
  10. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    1080p24 is the best current format for film sources as it matches the frame rate of the film cameras. 1080p60 is not really better than 1080i30--both introduce very similar motion artifacts for film source material.

    So why would you demand something that isn't better? And costs more? (The chips inside the HR2x don't support 1080p60 for a good reason--saves money.)

    Blu-Ray realizes that a lot of TVs are not standard compliant, so they help users with their non-standard TVs. Alas, that comes at a cost.

    So I"m not sure who's the stupid one. I lean toward the TV makers who didn't follow the standards.

    And remember, DIRECTV plays 1080p24 on all TVs. It just doesn't scale up to 1080p60 internally. Again, that would still have all the same problems as 1080i30 anyway. So don't be fooled. DIRECTV got this one right. Many of the TV makers didn't.

    Cheers,
    Tom
     
  11. icr2002

    icr2002 Mentor

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    Blu-Ray realizes that a lot of TVs are not standard compliant, so they help users with their non-standard TVs...says tom:sure:
    well lets see theres what only 15 million direct tv customers.
    but theres perhaps well over 300 million hdtv/monitors on the market right now.
    To me its Direct tvs responsibilty to make themselves compatible with whatever is on market regardless of a standard.:confused:

    Again if Blu Ray players do it... theres no reason for direct tv NOT to.:nono2:

    It doesnt ADD cost to the hardware of the blue ray.
    And i still say its a software able update to make them do 1080p60.:rolleyes:
     
  12. Montezuma58

    Montezuma58 AllStar

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    Whether the conversion happens in the player or TV is practically irrelevant. If the source material is 1080P/24 there is no data lost if the signal coming out of the player (or sat box) is 1080i or 1080P/60. There may be a few TVs out there now that don't properly de-interlace 1080i. The question is is there enough of those out there with owners that even really care. My guess is that most of the people that would care probably avoid the problem TVs anyways.

    It could be just a software change to enable the feature. But software ain't free.
     
  13. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    So you think the 1080p60 hardware scalers are free? Not from what I've seen. :)

    The video scalers in DVRs don't support 1080p24.

    Lastly, DIRECTV is compatible with all TVs. They supply the best possible format to HDTVs that are standards compliant, 1080p24. If a TV can't support the standard, best picture, DIRECTV supports 1080i60. The TV's scaler can then do what it needs to do.

    You can chuse* to blame DIRECTV all you want. They support the standards and keep the costs reasonable. And supply to all TVs.

    I chuse to be angry with the TV makers for not following the standards, thereby reducing my movie experience to a bad choice either way. 1080p60 is not a good choice. 1080p24 is.

    Cheers,
    Tom


    *Chuse is an acceptable alternative spelling and is found in the US Constitution. :)
     
  14. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    The problem with what you surmise in your syllogism is faulty logic. They made a safer decision to support standards rather than the permutations of non-standard implementations (let’s base it only on the numbers you use). Which way is less expensive to implement? Where does the money come from to address all to possible ways to display HDTV? From the customer, and I don’t want my rates increasing. You have similar decisions you can make also. You can buy equipment that conforms to how DirecTV does things, or you can be mad at DirecTV (or any other permutation of ways to perceive this problem, if it is one). You obviously are choosing to be mad at DirecTV, which is your decision. Thanks for your opinion, though I think the best value decision was made by DirecTV in this regard and I for one support it.
     
  15. ActiveHDdave

    ActiveHDdave Godfather

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    I like 1080i ....that's the max for my TV! no 1080p for me!
     
  16. icr2002

    icr2002 Mentor

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    Feb 26, 2005
    I would have bought the proper equipment IF Direct tv would say we offer 1080p24 ONLY and stop talking about offering 1080p period.

    Again DTVs fault
    not mine:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
     
  17. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    So why isn't it the TV maker's fault for not saying "We don't support standards with our 1080p"? ;) :eek2:
     
  18. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    You know it isn't nice to point fingers. Seriously though, the fact that technology changes to rapidly, unless you are wealthy enough to keep the latest equipment on hand, you will never have a perfect solution to all the potential inadequacies abound. You're welcome to blame who ever wish, I think though it is misdirected.

    It isn't nice to point fingers, sir. ;) Not everyone follows the standards to the letter either. In this case both 24 Hz and 30 Hz are a part of the 1080p ATSC standard for broadcasting terrestrially (with MPEG-2 compression). Again, I would say that the best way to be all encompassing interconnected without problems is to educate oneself on all the permutations of uses and get those equipment items so one can be as compatible as possible, given the deepness of one's pockets to continually do that. Unfortunately I think timing of convergence of all these technologies has caught a lot of people off guard and made a few folks angry, like Mr. (assuming; no offense if you're a ma'am) icr2002.

    I tend to sublimate anger into an efficiency of energy. I do this by asking the question, what can I accomplish by being angry and what can I accomplish by finding a best value solution, that is within my power to control? I generally take the personal responsibility approach and find a solution that works for me and in the end my energy I know is better spent on that. ;)

    BTW, Happy New Week everyone! :D
     
  19. dorfd1

    dorfd1 Icon

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    Jul 15, 2008
    so is there a picture quality difference between 1080i60 and 1080p30
     
  20. David MacLeod

    David MacLeod New Member

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    nope, actually no difference between sd and hd either. all a scam.
     

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