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3 Dishes - How?

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by sawmill, May 30, 2006.

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  1. sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    Mar 9, 2006
    How can I make this work (or can it be done with these parts)?
    I want to hook this up so that I pull in one satellite per dish, maximizing the signal on each one. I already have the dishes in the ground & peaked for 61.5, 110, & 119.

    PARTS:
    - 3 separate dishes
    - Each dish has a Dish Pro single LNB (with 2 ports per LNB)
    - DPP44 switch & power inserter
    - DPP separator
    - vip622 (dual tuner)
    - 510 (single tuner)

    What I tried (thought would work) was that I used one port on each of those LNBs to feed the inputs on the DPP44, then ran that on in to the DPP separator & into the vip622's two Satellite In ports. Result: The vip622 is recognizing only a SINGLE tuner. What am I missing here? Thanks.
     
  2. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It sounds like you have the wiring right. A couple of quick questions:

    Is the cable you are using RG6 tested to 2150MHz? (older cable may not pass the second tuner)
    Is the power inserter on Port 1 (where it belongs)?
    Are you feeding the 622 or the 510 via the power inserter? If you have that feed going to the 622 swap it with the feed going to the 510.
     
  3. sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    Mar 9, 2006
    Re: RG6, I don't know. The only place I have this unknown cabling is between the LNBs and the DPP44. (The installer had made a mess of the original wiring - - no drip loops, wire strung sloppily between dishes, unused sections connected on only one end.) However, he DID have the original installation working, but using only two of the 3 dishes (with a dual LNB on one dish). I was steamed to discover he had left one dish unused after expressly telling him the 3-dish intent, but since I had two tuner reception then, that makes me think the rest of the RG6 going into the house is okay. It's only my replacement sections between the new LNBs and the switch that is of unknown quality. That's something to try anyway. (Thanks.)

    Re: Power inserter on Port 1 via 622, yes, that remains unchanged, as does the rest of the wiring in the house.
     
  4. ThomasTrain

    ThomasTrain Cool Member

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    Aug 9, 2005
    Yes, your configuration will work perfectly. IT seems like the 622 or the DPP44 is just not recognizing the Seperator properly.

    #1 Not to belittle your intelligence but verify you are using a DishPro Plus Seperator. Splitters and diplexors wont work. Also verify you are not using one of those "Dishpro Splitters".

    #2 Try a different output port on the DPP44. I've seen some really wierd things on the DPP44 switches.

    #3 Reset the switch: Unplug power inserter and all output leads to the switch and unplug any receiver connected directly to the LNB(s) if applicable. Let it sit for approx 10-15 minutes and plug one receiver into an output port and the then plug in the power inserter and test. This has actually worked for me many many times.

    #4 It could actually be a bad switch. I worked with a lot of DPP44 switches and my favorite two bad ones were the following:
    a) Ports 2 and 3 had bad Legacy adapters.
    b) Ports 1 and 2 would not operate with DPP Seperators.
     
  5. sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    Mar 9, 2006
    Re: #1, Yes, it's a DPP Separator immediately behind the 622 (feeding Sat1 & Sat2 inputs). There is a diplexor in the mix also (part of the technician's original installation, which I figured shouldn't need to be changed). The order of equipment is:
    a.) LNB
    b.) DPP44
    c.) Power inserter
    d.) Diplexor
    e.) Separator
    f.) 622 (Sat1 & Sat2 inputs).

    I'll also be reconnecting my 510 later on, but hopefully, that's not an issue. It was working under the original (2 dish - 3 LNB) installation along with the 622. I had to temporarily disconnect the 510 due to a remodeling project, but the 622 was working on both its tuners after that disconnect (and before my effort to get all three dishes working).

    Re: #2 I had used the DPP44's 3rd output port when I tuned up the three dishes by connecting the 510 right there at the dishes & running it into a portable TV I brought outside. Was surprised to find that some transponders didn't seem to be active, but managed to find active transponders on all three satellites & peaked the dishes. (Of course, this made me worry about whether the LNBs were defective, but now I'm wondering whether it was the DPP44 acting up.)

    Re: #3, I stumbled across similar advice in other postings last night & tried that early this morning. It managed to light up 5 out of 6 of the tuner-inputs. Tried again & it dropped back to one tuner seeing 3 satellites, and the other seeing only 1 of 3. This evening, I tried running the Check Switch (without doing the power cycling) and BINGO, it lit up all three satellites on both tuners. At this point, I'm very glad it seems to be working, but worried whether it's stable. What happens if there's a power failure? Will the 622 & DPP44 remember their settings?

    Re: #4, from the get go, the 622 has been a real pain in terms of it dropping out, suddenly deciding to reboot, developing the stutters, etc., etc. When it works, it's great, but it's been incredibly unreliable. Never know whether it will really have recorded a show (or all of the show). I talked to Dish a few weeks after getting the 622, concerned that I had gotten a lemon, but they gave me what the tech seemed to imply was becoming the standing policy brush off, that they were being told NOT to replace receivers. Instead, he held out hopes that a software upgrade might improve things. I have the 357 version now, and (right up to my 3-dish project) the 622 was still acting very flaky. We routinely have to reboot it 2 or 3 times a day. Is this normal? Is Dish offering any hope of improvement? Other factors: I'm running about 80 ft. of RG6, don't know its sweep value. Prior to my 3-dish project, the 2 active dishes were not peaked. (The installer claimed they looked "alright" and didn't bother peaking them, but I managed to improve the signal a good 30 points or so.) My point: I'm hoping that the improved signal strength will clear up some of the glitchy 622 behaviors. Sound reasonable? Thanks.
     
  6. Jun 1, 2006 #6 of 24
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    And the other diplexer?
     
  7. Jun 1, 2006 #7 of 24
    sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    Mar 9, 2006
    What other diplexor?!? Should I interpret that diplexors always occur in pairs? Honestly, that diplexor bit is where the original installer lost me in terms of understanding what he was doing & how it was supposed to work. To expound upon my list of equipment above, here's how it's hooked up:

    1.) LNBs
    2.) DPP44
    3.) Power inserter
    4.) Diplexer ("In/Out")
    a.) Sat (outputs toward DPP Separator)
    b.) U/V (outputs toward "Home Distribution" port on 622)
    5.) DPP Separator
    a.) Sat1 tuner input on 622
    b.) Sat2 tuner input on 622

    As far as I can tell, the 622's "Home Distribution" output is
    returning back into the diplexor - - and then going nowhere (?)

    I remember the installer at first telling me that he was going to have to install another RG6 run, but I finally convinced him that I already had a separate line for the 510 running all the way from the dish to the receiver. After some round & round with him, the light suddenly went on, & he declared he didn't need the additional cabling. Now I'm wondering if the diplexor there is a remnant of his first plan.
     
  8. Jun 1, 2006 #8 of 24
    tnsprin

    tnsprin Hall Of Fame

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    If you don't have a regular antenna diplexed in to feed OTA signals then remove the diplexor (yes, normally used in pairs). Also the DPP splitter has a port 1 that goes to your sat1 tunner and a port 2 that goes to your sat2 input. You didn't say which satellites (based on your lnb's) etc your receiver sees. This might go a long way to say where to look for your problem
     
  9. Jun 1, 2006 #9 of 24
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The more detail you can give the better. You did a decent job of following the feed from dishes to receiver but only listed one diplexer. The question was if there was another one and if so where in the path it lies.

    Now the question seems to be whether or not you need the diplexers at all. Is the "UHF/VHF" side of the diplexer behind your 622 connected to the receiver? If so, is it connected to the 8VSB Antenna In or the Home Distribution Out? What is the "UHF/VHF" side of the diplexer closest to the power inserter/switch connected to? (Diplexers can be used to bring in an outdoor antenna or backfeed to other TVs for home distribution. Some have tried to do both on the same cable.)

    If either diplexer is not fully connected then you are better off just removing them both.
    The diplexer should not be related to the 510. The only reason to put a diplexer in is for UHF/VHF - either to receive from an antenna/cable or distribute from the 622 to a second TV. Perhaps the installer was thinking about getting the signal to TV2 then remembered you have a 510 (clicking his light bulb).

    Have you tried moving the 622 to another switch port yet (if possible)? You can leave the power inserter on port 1 and run around it to port 2 with the 622 cable to do this test.
     
  10. sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    Mar 9, 2006
    Let me try to clarify. In the parts list above, parts # 4, (4)a & (4)b were all talking about the ports on the diplexer. There is only one diplexer in the installation that I can find. Like I said, the day the tech hooked it up, I stood there scratching my head because it didn't make sense to me. Here's what was on the diplexer's ports:

    - The Power Inserter's port labeled "To Receiver Satellite In" was connected to
    Diplexer's In/Out port.

    - Diplexer's Sat port --> connected to the DPP Separator's Input.

    - Diplexer's U/V port --> connected to 622's Home Distribution output.

    Tonight, I took the diplexer out completely, with no apparent ill effect.

    One remaining oddity before & after the removal of the diplexor is that when I run the System Info status check, about every other time it wants to report that 110 is out (but 119 and 61.5 are good). Run it again, and all three light up. (BTW, is that screen supposed to show only one instance of the 3 satellites, or should it show the set of 3 satellites twice, 1 set for each tuner?)

    Anyway, running the Check Switch appears to be working now, as I'm getting all three satellites on both tuners. Signal strength is good, too. I think (!?) it might be working now. Haven't had to reboot at all today. But maybe I spoke too soon: Just now looked at the Details off of the System Info screen, and while it reports that Tuner 1 has had only 1 signal loss today, Tuner 2 has had 62 signal losses. I'll probably try switching around ports on the DPP44 this weekend.

    Re: OTA, I do have a(n amplifed) regular antenna going into the TV Antenna input on the 622. Those channels show up fine via the 622.
     
  11. rcdallas

    rcdallas Mentor

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    Jun 3, 2006

    You need a 34 switch, a DPP44 is not compatible with DP LNBs.

    When using the 34, you can't use the DPP seperators, so you'll need two feeds going to the 622 IRD.
     
  12. tnsprin

    tnsprin Hall Of Fame

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    But the DPP44 IS Compatible with DP LNB's. If used with a DPP lnb, it is downgraded to work as a DP LNB. Legacy LNB's will not work. So Sawmill's setup, if connected properly will work.
     
  13. BobaBird

    BobaBird EKB Editor

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    It's not just compatible, the DPP44 actually requires DP LNBs. Those can be separate Singles, Duals or SuperDISH FSS, or the 2 built into the DP Twin or DPP Twin.
     
  14. rcdallas

    rcdallas Mentor

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    Jun 3, 2006
    I've thought about this all day. I could have swore it wasn't the case, though I could be wrong.

    Not to sway away from topic, but I take it a DPP Twin is essentially the same thing as a DP Twin minus the input port?

    I wasn't aware there was ever a DP Single, just a dual. At least thats what I've seen so far.
     
  15. The intimidator

    The intimidator AllStar

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    Apr 14, 2006
    I suggest putting the power inserter on the 510, and just putting the seperator on the 622. This is how I ussually do it. The only reason there should be a diplexor is if you are feeding a tv2 off the 622. if you are not remove it.
    Difference between the dpp twin and the dp twin is the dpp twin enables you to run two dual tuners off one single rg6 with seperators at the receiver locations. Dp twin will only support two singles or one dual tuner. Dpp twin will support two duals with seperators or two singles.

    You have all the stuff you need it is just allittle more complicated with the dpp 44 than it would be if you had a dpp twin and a dp dual with two dishes. With this configuration you will still be able to get your 119 ,and 110 sats in the hundreds,and you 61.5 off the other dish.
    I do suggest you put the seperator at the 510 location. Disconnect your sat feed from your 622 run a check switch. This resets the matrix. Then remove your diplexor and connect the single rg6 from the dish or 44 switch into the seperator then run another check switch. Should see 119 all 110 all 61.5 all /Port 4 N.C.
    Let me know the results, By the way I am a tech. The one you would pay $99.00 to come to your house. Hope this helps.....
     
  16. sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    Mar 9, 2006
    Thanks for the responses, everyone.

    - Re: LNB models, all the LNBs are labeled DP, not DPP.
    - I have three (3) single-head LNBs, and each LNB has 2 ports.
    - I'm only using one port per LNB.
    - There are three dishes, and each dish has just one of these LNB's on it.
    - 61.5's LNB is connected to DPP44, Port 1
    - 110's LNB is connected to DPP44, Port 2
    - 119's LNB is connected to DPP44, Port 3
    - The DPP44's first output port (receiver side) is connected to the power inserter (in the house).
    - The other end of the power inserter goes into the DPP Separator's Input port.
    - Separator's ouput ports connect to Sat1 & Sat2 tuners on the 622.
    - The DPP44's second output port (receiver side) has a cable running into the house & is meant to feed the 510, but I don't have the 510 hooked up right now. (One thing at a time.)
    - The misconfigured diplexer has been removed.

    Okay. Things are working better now, except that 110 drops out on the 2nd tuner. When I run the System Setup >> Installation >> SYSTEM INFO screen, it tells me that 61.5 is good, 110 is bad, & 119 is good. (Except for just now. Now it's telling me 119 AND 110 are bad. Reset time, I guess.)

    When I run the System Setup >> Installation >> Point Dish >> CHECK SWITCH screen, it tells me everything is good across both tuners except for Tuner 2's 110 Odd is out. (Except for just now. Now it's telling me Tuner 1 is all good, but Tuner 2 is out for 61.5, out on 110 Odd, and out on 119 odd.)

    I'm about to unplug things (again!) only this time, I'm going to try that advice about switching around which of the DPP44's ports I'm using. Since at times I do get connections on the Even / Odd transponders of all satellites, all tuners (it happens, just doesn't stick), I'm thinking the LNBs are good, and that the problem is either the DPP44 or RG6 sweep value OR it's the flaky 622 (software?) itself. I've never seen such an unstable piece of equipment / software since my old 386 running Windows 3.1.

    The suggestion to place the power inserter on the 510 is an interesting one. That makes me wonder, however, if it might be helpful if I place the power inserter further down the line (away from the (510) receiver, and closer to where the cabling exits the house). Wouldn't doing that help with avoiding voltage drop-off? I was thinking I might put the power inserter right before the grounding block, which is attached to a water pipe in the basement. (The water pipe goes down through the ground, thus the installer's choice of the pipe as the grounding location.)
     
  17. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If you can, I'd put the 622 on output 2 of the DPP44 direct to the receiver (except for grounding) and keep the power inserter on output 1 using that feed to the 510 eventually.

    Also, I'd put the inputs to the DPP44 in this order: 119 - 110 - 61.5 ... it shouldn't make a difference but there are a lot of things that do make a difference that shouldn't and it's an easy fix.
     
  18. BobaBird

    BobaBird EKB Editor

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    Other way around, also the DPP Twin adds Plus switching as described in post 15.
    Check these EKB pages: DishPro Technology and What's this Twin?.

    Also agree with JL's advice in post 17.
     
  19. rcdallas

    rcdallas Mentor

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    Thank you for the links :)
     
  20. sawmill

    sawmill Cool Member

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    I moved the DPP44 inputs as mentioned in post # 16.

    - Port 1 = No LNB
    - Port 2 = 119
    - Port 3 = 110
    - Port 4 = 61.5
    - Output 1 (To Receiver side of switch) = Power inserter, 622
    - Output 2 = Empty
    - Output 3 = 510's cable (although that receiver isn't hooked up in the house yet).
    - Output 4 = Empty.

    In the process of moving the DPP44 connections, I discovered that the two cables hooked up to the outputs on the bottom of the switch (outs to rec'r) had corroded f-connectors (on the cables). This is very surprising, since it's only been about 2 months since the tech was out to install the 622 & he put new connectors on the cables at that time. There was heavy corrrosion around the copper conductors and spreading out across the RG6's insulator to the metal part of the fittings. The part of the conductor that had been inserted into Port 1 (the powered port) also had some corrosion, except looked whitish, rather than rusty (although was caked some).

    I've put new connectors on the cables, & have moved the switch up under the dish now to try to give it some weather protection, but I plan to rig something to shelter it better.

    Ran Check Switch, and got all green across both tuners! (Hooray, & thanks to everyone for all the help.)

    But now there's the mystery of the quickly rusting connectors. I'm worried that there's something electrolytic going on there. The grounding block (where the cables come into the house) are on a water pipe & they share that grounding spot with an amplified OTA. Could there be some sort of charge bleeding over?

    I'll start with the most obvious: weather.
     
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