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31 h-24 recievers and deca broadband internet problems

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion' started by avmaster, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. Sep 5, 2013 #1 of 34
    avmaster

    avmaster Legend

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    We recently did a commercial AV installation for a client, and the original order was for 22 receivers, one at each tv. The original installation went smooth, used 2 SWM-16 and 2 deca broadbands for injecting the system with network, this was so the client could use the Ipad app to control the boxes, internet and network works fine on all of these receivers.

    Yesterday he decided to add 9 more boxes, nearly maxing out the tuners on both SWM-16's, all is well but we cannot get any of these 9 to recognize the internet connection, did the typical reset a few times, still will not recognize the network. I would like to also note that many of the receivers are coming off the same swm-8 splitters that the original 22 boxes are. I am now suspecting that its something to do with the activation process rather than the actual physical setup.

    This ipad app for commercial is a fairly new thing, so its fairly unusual to internet inject a system of this size, so not a lot of people know answers to this problem.

    Any input is appreciated.
     
  2. Sep 6, 2013 #2 of 34
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    When you say typical reset, do you mean unplugging all receivers, and unplugging the swim power supply's, then plugging the back in and then after abut plugging the receivers back in?

    Also could try rerunning sat setup.

    If the place is really big, while I seriously doubt it, I suppose its possible that the last 9 pushed over the limit of how's many IP address the network was prepared to assign.

    Realistically, I think you are right though, and its on the activation side that they need to flip a switch of some sort about it.


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  3. Sep 6, 2013 #3 of 34
    The Merg

    The Merg 1*

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    Yeah, I would check the DHCP range to see what the max number of clients allowed is.


    - Merg

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  4. Sep 6, 2013 #4 of 34
    peds48

    peds48 Genius. DBSTalk Club

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    Yup, such big networks like this needs "special" managed switches and a standalone DHCP server. most off the shelf routers are not up to the task. That it 31 IP addresses alone on DirecTV equipment, then you have the "streaming boxes" Blue-Rays, TVs...etc...
     
  5. Sep 6, 2013 #5 of 34
    avmaster

    avmaster Legend

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    Yes we did hard resets, unplugged the swm system, reset it, all of the typical tricks. On the original install all I had to do was reset boxes and they recognized the network.

    We are using a 4 way switch downstream from the router to feed the deca's. Anyways, I highly doubt that is the issue, I would say if just a few of the new ones had this problem that maybe IP's maxxing out may be the problem, but this is literally every single one of them, that would be one heck of a coincidence.

    I was actually surprised that 2 deca's did the job, I was thinking we may have needed 4 originally since SWM-16 switches have 2 dedicated swm-8 outputs but it clearly carried network on both ports. No one I talked to was clear on this at all btw I pretty much had to wing it. Seems with the more advanced tech stuff directv is about as clear as mud. I also hate how there is no real way to test the presence of internet over coax like you can easily do with a lan cable.

    The app is badass though and works awesome when its setup, anyone who deals with commercial clients especially sports bars with lots of boxes is going to run into this same issue we have. 31 boxes is pretty extreme, they could have easily saved some monthly payments by going with a dozen boxes and spent some money up front on a matrix system, and this headache were dealing with now wouldn't even be an issue. And setting up the app took hours I would like to say, especially with this many boxes.
     
  6. Sep 6, 2013 #6 of 34
    veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    What is the total DECA node count?

    31 receivers + 2 CCKs = 33
    Max DECA node count = 16
    16 x 2 = 32
     
  7. Sep 6, 2013 #7 of 34
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    The reason why you only needed two DECAs is because the SWM16 has an internal DECA bridge between SWM1 and SWM2, though there is some signal loss when crossing it. Where are the 9 additional receivers located in relation to the 22 original ones? Were they all added in another area that's more distant from the SWM16s/splitters? It's possible you're running into distance limitations, and the DECA signals from the new receivers can't reach the DECA adapter. Did you try swapping one of the new receivers for one of the old ones just to see if it would work in the location of the old one and if the old one would still work in the location of the new one?

    If this is a public viewing account like a sports bar there is no monthly charge for receivers, so there's no difference in your bill whether you have 10 or 100 receivers. A matrix system to serve 31 TVs would probably cost a lot more than the extra receivers, though it would provide for a neater install keeping all the receivers and cabling hidden away. For a private/business viewing account where you do pay for receivers, even at $120/month for an extra 20 it would take a while to pay for that matrix system :)
     
  8. Sep 6, 2013 #8 of 34
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Wait I think I know what vos is getting at. Did you hook up a single deca to the router separately or did you bridge the two swims and then hook up one deca to the router?

    Is that what you are sayin vos?


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  9. Sep 6, 2013 #9 of 34
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    The reason why you only needed two DECAs is because the SWM16 has an internal DECA bridge between SWM1 and SWM2, though there is some signal loss when crossing it. Where are the 9 additional receivers located in relation to the 22 original ones? Were they all added in another area that's more distant from the SWM16s/splitters? It's possible you're running into distance limitations, and the DECA signals from the new receivers can't reach the DECA adapter. Did you try swapping one of the new receivers for one of the old ones just to see if it would work in the location of the old one and if the old one would still work in the location of the new one?

    If this is a public viewing account like a sports bar there is no monthly charge for receivers, so there's no difference in your bill whether you have 10 or 100 receivers. A matrix system to serve 31 TVs would probably cost a lot more than the extra receivers, though it would provide for a neater install keeping all the receivers and cabling hidden away. For a private/business viewing account where you do pay for receivers, even at $120/month for an extra 20 it would take a while to pay for that matrix system :)


    Good thought about swapping places with some of the receivers. Why the heck didn't I think I that? :lol:


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  10. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    close but...
    One SWiM-16 has 15 tuners and a DECA/CCK <---- 16 DECAs [max on one cloud]
    One SWiM-16 has 16 tuners and a DECA/CCK. <-------- 17 DECAs [ one too many DECAs]
     
  11. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I was waiting for the TS to come back, but...

    The SWiM-16 that has too many DECAs:
    1. I'd remove one receiver and check if the rest work.
    2. If they do, then I'd remove the "extra" splitter and go back to an 8-way on each output.
    3. I'd add NAS 9501 diplexers to each output, where the OTA/DECA port runs to a DECA/CCK.
    4. This will breakup the DECA count and have 9 on each side.
    5. The three CCKs all connect to the router so they'll all be on one network.
    The SWiM-16 was designed for MRV/whole home service, so there was to be expected to have one DVR, and there wouldn't be 17 DECAs.
    Only case that would go over this is with 16 non DVR receivers and a CCK.
     
  12. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    For what you're suggesting to be the problem with those additional 9 receivers the following has to be true:

    1) originally one SWM16 had 15 receivers and one DECA, the other had the remaining 7 and one DECA
    2) the new receivers were installed but none were checked to see if they were working until all were powered up
    3) adding a 17th device to a DECA cloud takes down the entire cloud, rather than just causing a problem with the 17th device
    4) the old receivers weren't checked to see if they were still working - if they were the 15 on the originally 'full' SWM16 would be found to be working, none of the 16 on the other SWM16 would be working
     
  13. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    This would be the first case of overloading the DECA cloud, so I don't know what would happen.

    One thing is true, they are limited to 16 nodes and only 16 H24 + a CCK can do this with a SWiM-16.
     
  14. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    One other point, rather than adding the NAS diplexer and third CCK, why not attach one of the receivers via its ethernet port? That would drop them down to 16 in each DECA cloud.
     
  15. JosephB

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    This is likely not the case. Most home routers can support up to 50 wireless clients plus some number of wired clients. Now, I would not run a business of a seemingly decent size that it has 30 DirecTV receivers on a Linksys router, but you definitely do not need a managed switch at 30 devices at any rate. There are plenty of decent mid-range SMB routers that could handle the workload. Depending on how many other items are on the IP network the DHCP server might be out of IPs, but it would simply be a case of increasing the number of available IPs in the router. Also, if it were an IP network issue, it would be intermittent and affecting other devices on the network, not just the 9 new receivers. If it were IP problems, sometimes the new receivers would work, and then some of the old ones would drop off, and it would also affect computers on the network.
     
  16. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    This is likely not the case. Most home routers can support up to 50 wireless clients plus some number of wired clients. Now, I would not run a business of a seemingly decent size that it has 30 DirecTV receivers on a Linksys router, but you definitely do not need a managed switch at 30 devices at any rate. There are plenty of decent mid-range SMB routers that could handle the workload. Depending on how many other items are on the IP network the DHCP server might be out of IPs, but it would simply be a case of increasing the number of available IPs in the router. Also, if it were an IP network issue, it would be intermittent and affecting other devices on the network, not just the 9 new receivers. If it were IP problems, sometimes the new receivers would work, and then some of the old ones would drop off, and it would also affect computers on the network.


    I was thinking all the recievrs are in the same network as the business which may already have many computers and other things on it.


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  17. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    31 H24s in a business aren't going to be sending/receiving much data at all. They're not contributing any real load to a network, just taking up IP addresses. It isn't as if they're whole home clients all streaming from DVRs. It sounds like the only reason they're being networked is to use the iPad app. Even if you ran around changing channels on a TV every two seconds you'd use so little bandwidth it wouldn't even register on a network monitor.

    If lack of DHCP addresses was a problem, a simple reconfiguration of the router serving them to add more would take care of that problem. Whatever this network hardware this business has, no matter how shiny or how outdated, the addition of 31 H24s - or even 10x as many - won't make one whit of a difference.
     
  18. avmaster

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    Answer to your above questions -

    There are 15 recievers on each swm-16 right now, the 31st one is actually at the switch and was connected (not by us) to one of the legacy ports using a b-band converter, this one just feeds some bathroom tv's and having the net connection really is not important. So from my understanding from what you are saying here is that the deca actually takes up one tuner on the swm system, I was not clear on whether it would or not but I wired it so each switch was not maxxed.

    Also tried setting up one of the new boxes where one of the existing working networked ones is located, same result, will not recognize deca. So we know that the lines are carrying the signal with the network, just need to get these stubborn boxes to recognize it. Going to talk to advanced tech tomorrow. Makes no sense why none of the 9 will not recognize it other than something on the activaton / account side not being setup correctly.

    BTW, what is CCK? Sorry not clear on all the forum lingo, last time I was on here was when SWM was new.
     
  19. avmaster

    avmaster Legend

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  20. avmaster

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