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3TB and 4TB Drives. The Danger!

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by Rich, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. Oct 5, 2012 #141 of 193
    RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    I tested each setup out using 2 RAID enclosures that I have to verify that the HR34 was in fact using the entire drive. One enclosure holds 2 drives. With that enclosure I tested 3TB RAID 1 (2x3TB drives), 6TB JBOD (2x3TB drives) and 4TB JBOD (2x2TB drives). The other enclosure I have holds 4 drives and supports RAID 5. With it I tested 12TB JBOD (4x3TB Drives) and I settled on using 9TB RAID 5 (4x3TB Drives).
     
  2. Oct 5, 2012 #142 of 193
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Mediterranea...
    Then you'll eat a crow ! Ready ?
     
  3. Oct 5, 2012 #143 of 193
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Mediterranea...
    OK. I would use TiB when giving the number, but not everyone could separate computer's and marketing count of bytes. :eek2:

    Now turn on your math skills again and do same for newest HDD which has 4K sector's size.
    Continue counting ... what is your result ?


    EDIT: Done ? So you would still using MBR and it would not required that dramatic changes in FW.
     
  4. Oct 5, 2012 #144 of 193
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Mediterranea...
    Can't find your post where the big drives/volumes partitions posted ...
     
  5. Oct 5, 2012 #145 of 193
    RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    Well here's where I at least posted the size of DirecTV's partition for each setup.

    http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=3104713&postcount=174

    You can search for the rest.
     
  6. Oct 5, 2012 #146 of 193
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Mediterranea...
    I did expect fdisk output ...
     
  7. Oct 5, 2012 #147 of 193
    RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    Then you should do some testing.

    Oh, and fdisk won't work with GPT. But you already knew that, right?
     
  8. Oct 6, 2012 #148 of 193
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    GPT ? I don't remember if it was mentioned. For sure 4K drives could work with MBR just fine. As it done by dish for support big EHD drives.
     
  9. Oct 6, 2012 #149 of 193
    unixguru

    unixguru Godfather

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    Conceptually that would be really nice.

    From a practical perspective it creates a lot of issues. NAS has to be carefully engineered in a large enterprise environment. Even there it's not suitable for all purposes.

    I've been doing high-end enterprise-scale software engineering for 30 years (storage focus the last 12 years). If I were developing DTV's software I would never consider supporting NAS. Would be asking for disaster.
     
  10. Oct 6, 2012 #150 of 193
    unixguru

    unixguru Godfather

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    Most companies belong to another kind of herd - the Good Enough Herd. In the technology realm the most successful member of that herd was/is Micro$oft. Most companies like that model and follow it like a religion. DTV is a full member of that herd.

    If you don't have to make something better then the greater herd will just keep sending you money.

    Another company has emerged that has a different approach. Innovate and provide something that consumers will want once they see it. Apple.

    Proven that it's better for consumers and the company. Way better. Think I recently read that the iPhone is bigger revenue than all of Micro$oft!

    Whether you prefer the products of one or the other of the mentioned companies, it doesn't matter. The comparative financial performance is a direct representation of how the majority of consumers have voted.

    The chances of DTV adopting that model are... well, very slim.
     
  11. Oct 6, 2012 #151 of 193
    unixguru

    unixguru Godfather

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    Apologize for the off topic... Unix History

    Linux is not a direct derivative of any Unix. It's a Unix-like clone. Except of course for the stealing of code that happened in later years - and was never enforced because of the details of who currently owned what rights to Unix.

    This is incorrect. Those with interest can see Wikipedia for the facts.
     
  12. Oct 6, 2012 #152 of 193
    Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    I think it finally dawned on some intelligent person at D* that a 1TB drive hooked up to five tuners would be a problem.

    While the eSATA function is not "supported", they do make changes at times to it. I'm still against it being supported. For many reasons. Mainly, because I like the idea that I can use any HDD I want to. I really don't want to be limited in my choices.

    Yup. Just putting all your eggs in a larger basket.

    Yup, just wait till the first person has a catastrophic failure of an HR such as the 34 with a four TB HDD on it.

    Exactly.

    Should be interesting watching someone go ballistic. Always is... :lol:

    Pretty normal for D* to release equipment that's not well thought out. Then fix it after torturing a bunch of people.

    That makes sense.

    There are other options other than RAID, but whatever works for someone is good. Having 12 active HRs works really well. I haven't missed a show in a long time due to failure of an HR or an HDD.

    Good post!

    Rich
     
  13. Oct 6, 2012 #153 of 193
    unixguru

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    The expense issue is pretty much gone. SATA drives are, by definition, hot-swappable. The bare drive connectors can stick right out the back of the cartridge. No electronics glue of any kind. The only reason a cartridge is needed at all is to protect the bare circuit board on the one side of the drive. A simple piece of plastic with holes for ventilation is all that is required to make a consumer-friendly cartridge.

    Cheap enclosures like the Sans Digital already have a cartridge that is almost what is needed. They are just a U-shaped piece of plastic with maybe a small metal rail on each side. Most of them don't have any kind of cover over the drive circuit board. These are sold to consumers so the assumption apparently is that consumers are smart enough to avoid static discharge to the circuit board :) In any event, adding a piece of plastic with holes in it would add only pennies to the cost.

    The RDX cartridge is a current example. They use 2.5" drives. The mobile drive has some extra shock-tolerance features (retracted heads). No reason DTV couldn't do something similar with 3.5" drives and rate them with less shock resistance - after all, the usage scenario is completely different.

    It would increase the price to do it internally. Bigger case, power supply, fan. But not a huge amount. Again, look at the price of a Sans Digital 2 drive enclosure. The HR34 is a premium device.

    But we don't need a new generation of HR34. Just make something like a TenBox with drive cartridges. The AM21 was a great solution for OTA for the subset of people who wanted it. External RAID would be the same for storage space and reliability. The development and manufacturing cost would be minimal; nothing special, no software to develop, etc.

    Lots of enterprise arrays have an LED on each drive slot that lights up when the drive is defective. Shouldn't even need a truck roll for this - just ship out a new cartridge and a return label. Lexmark laser printer cartridges, for example, have used that approach forever.
     
  14. Oct 6, 2012 #154 of 193
    bobcamp1

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    OK, I'm counting the first six physical consecutive sectors on a typical Advanced Format drive....

    0, 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, ....

    Hmmm... I've only counted six sectors yet the number I need to use to access that sector (its LBA) is already at 40. I have to count by 8's. The number '8' comes from 4096/512. The hard drives physical sector size is 4k, but its logical sector size is still stuck at 512 bytes/sector. And the logical sector size is what the OS uses to access it. So the MBR limitation still exists.

    That's why these drives are also called "512e". They emulate everything, good and bad, from the old style 512 bytes/sector drives.

    I don't expect the emulation to go on forever. There's already "4k native" (4Kn) external USB drives. But it's going to be a while before they become popular because OSs are just starting to support them. For example, Windows 7 doesn't support it but Windows 7 SP1 does (which is why you need to slipstream SP1 into your bootable Windows 7 DVD).

    I have no idea if the version of Linux in the HR34 supports 512e only or if it can do 4Kn. Does anyone know the model of the hard drive in it? Or you could plug in a 4Kn eSATA drive in and see if the HR34 can use it.
     
  15. Oct 6, 2012 #155 of 193
    unixguru

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    Yes, redundancy at the entire device level works - and is better actually given the inability to move storage/programs to another device.

    But it adds a lot of operational overhead. MRV is half-baked. Cannot do all operations from any device remotely. No ability to say device 2 mirrors device 1 (i.e. records everything that the other does). Etc.

    I suppose they could, in the future, allow more than one HR34 in a house. Allow one device to mirror the other (actually needs to be a 2-way mirror so that when one fails and is replaced the new one is automatically brought back into sync). Let the C31 automatically fallback to the alternate upon failure...

    (That is actually similar to a standard failover cluster in the enterprise world. There one uses one set of RAID storage connected via a redundant storage network [fibre channel, iscsi, fcoe, etc] with 2 or more hosts running cluster software. Complicated and EXPENSIVE!)

    That's a much more expensive approach: purchasing the 2nd device, paying the additional receiver fee every month, developing and supporting a lot more software, etc. Movable RAID is a much cheaper solution.
     
  16. Oct 6, 2012 #156 of 193
    unixguru

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    You're assuming that if it becomes "supported" that it will be changed in such a way as to disable anything other than the specific device they are "supporting".

    I don't think that's likely. More likely they would support the device(s) they have blessed and the rest would remain as today - works but not supported.
     
  17. Oct 6, 2012 #157 of 193
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Mediterranea...
    I'm talking about support of 4k drives not emulation.
    Using MBR and increasing space by using same vector: 32 bits.
    If you continue live in a past, then here is simple answer: 2.2 TB x 8 = 17.6 TB.
    That is new limit for using old MBR. See my other post about _real_ partitioning of 3 TB EHD by dish.
     
  18. Oct 6, 2012 #158 of 193
    harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    I'm ready for some detailed factual information as opposed to your verbally confusing teases and hints.
     
  19. Oct 6, 2012 #159 of 193
    RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    Well you can trust me or you can try it yourself. You decide.
     
  20. Oct 7, 2012 #160 of 193
    TBoneit

    TBoneit Hall Of Fame

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    I don't see why you would need to slipstream SP1, Who would use a 4Tb boot drive?
    My computers boot Drives are 120Gb, 160Gb and 300Gb. All SSD The two laptops with the smaller drives, They are more than large enough. The Desktop has 2Tb data drives Since I use it to capture, convert and Author BluRay. And I use 2Tb USB3 drives to back up from the desktop for their speed.

    TB
     

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