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5th grader suspended at nature camp for Swiss Army knife

Discussion in 'The OT' started by phrelin, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. May 1, 2013 #61 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I wanted to see if I could shoot an apple off that kid's head. I didn't hit the apple, or fortunately the kid, so it was all ok... right?

    I saw this big rock, and I thought... I know what it is like to have a pillow fight and hit someone in the head with a pillow... but I don't know what it is like to hit someone in the head... so I just wanted to perform an experiment and see what happened. I'm sorry that kid got hurt, but I didn't mean to.

    Yeah, I put my foot out and tripped him... because I thought it would be funny. I didn't know he would fall awkwardly and knock out some teeth... so I shouldn't be punished.

    And so forth... The girl in that article shouldn't be punished the same as someone actually making a bomb with the intent to cause harm... but whatever happened to "scared straight"... where they show real-life consequences for people who do things to keep you from getting near that line.

    A 16 year old ought to know better than to be mixing chemicals to "see what would happen"... That doesn't sound very bright. What if she had started a fire or the cap popped off that bottle and damaged someone's eye?

    I'm not saying it should ruin her life either... but... she is old enough to know better.
     
  2. May 1, 2013 #62 of 110
    dpeters11

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    Absolutely. But I hope at least she goes through the juvenile system and doesn't end up with a felony already on her record. Even some adults don't understand the dangers of mixing bleach and ammonia, and that is a well known dangerous concoction.

    There's a reason why when MacGyver did anything that could be dangerous, a critical step was changed or left out.
     
  3. May 3, 2013 #63 of 110
    Drucifer

    Drucifer Well-Known Member

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    16-Year-Old Girl Arrested and Charged
    With a Felony for Science Project Mistake


    READ MORE
     
  4. May 3, 2013 #64 of 110
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I wonder how she "guessed" the right chemicals to get the chemical reaction she got?

    Perhaps she should have just Googled (or Bing'd) the results?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqEK5ECcsDo

    While (once again) I feel the penalty is harsh I don't completely buy the claim of ignorance. I believe she knew what would happen.

    (PS: If these were not the household products she used I suspect she could have found results for her combination.)

    KIDS: Don't try this at school ... or at home ... or anywhere people or property is present.

    Unless, of course, you have proper adult supervision ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwiosotOlWU
     
  5. May 3, 2013 #65 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    She also seemed to know enough to not do it inside the classroom. IF it were truly a scientific experiment, why would she not want to do it in the safety of a laboratory or with an adult present? Again, she isn't a terrorist... but she is old enough to know what she was doing wasn't right, hence doing it in an area where there were not any people around.
     
  6. May 3, 2013 #66 of 110
    dpeters11

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    Apparently, it was toilet bowl cleaner and aluminum foil.

    Of course the cleaner is caustic and would be considered potentially dangerous. It would deserve more punishment than say Mentos and Diet Coke (which I think a punishment of cleaning up the mess would be sufficient.)
     
  7. May 3, 2013 #67 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    She knew exactly what would happen. Similar to what James said, just click this... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=toilet+bowl+cleaner+and+aluminum+foil
     
  8. May 3, 2013 #68 of 110
    dpeters11

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    I have to admit, while I had a chemistry set as a kid, I never considered that combination.

    Of course there was a day where a kid's science kit could include real uranium ore and a working geiger counter.
     
  9. May 8, 2013 #69 of 110
    dpeters11

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  10. May 9, 2013 #70 of 110
    Rich

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    When my son was in the fifth or sixth grade, one of his teachers was gonna have a class on cooking and asked her students to bring in various utensils. My son brought in one of our Pampered Chef choppers. The teacher specifically asked for a chopper. During school hours I was called by the school and told my son was in the Principal's office because he had brought a "deadly weapon" to school. I immediately went to the school and, sure enough, the chopper was sitting on the Principal's desk.

    One of the school system's managers (or whatever he was called) was there and launched into a tirade about how any parent could allow such a "weapon" to be brought to a school. When I told him that my son's teacher was aware of what he was bringing in that day, he said he didn't believe it. After calling in the teacher and having my story confirmed he didn't even apologize to my son or me. Just continued ranting. Now he's the headman of the school system. Go figure.

    Rich
     
  11. May 9, 2013 #71 of 110
    Rich

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    I believe that's changed completely. There are restrictions on the size of a knife and it can't be one contoured as a fighting knife, but you can bring a 2.6" knife on a flight with you now. I think my statements are correct, there was an article in the NY Daily News a few weeks ago about the changes.

    Rich
     
  12. May 9, 2013 #72 of 110
    Rich

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    What else could a child have that could be used to kill or maim someone? I know you know more than most members how many weapons can be easily made from the most mundane things. How about banning socks? Put a few stones in a sock and it becomes a very usable sap. Can you carry a roll of nickels under all these rules? They make a fine weapon. How about a magazine? Rolled up, a very dangerous weapon. Metal lunch boxes should be outlawed because you can fill one up and beat someone to death? Should we cut down all trees surrounding a school because branches make a dandy club? So do baseball bats. I could go on and on, but...

    Rich
     
  13. May 9, 2013 #73 of 110
    Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    Let us not overlook those very deadly pointed pens and sharpened pencils*. Every student has them and most are concealed carry.

    *I was once stabbed in the knee at scdhool by a pencil-wielding girl with a ponytail which I was pulling.
     
  14. May 9, 2013 #74 of 110
    MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    Prudence prevents me from giving you a direct answer to your question. What I will say is common items found in peoples homes or bought in stores like Walmart and Nice N Easy can be used to harm, maim, or kill either on a small or large scale.
     
  15. May 9, 2013 #75 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Bringing up silly examples doesn't help anyone... Yes a pencil can be used like a knife to stab someone... but that isn't its primary purpose.

    As I said earlier... you can kill with your bare hands, so the kids themselves would have to be banned if you are going to go to the extreme of silliness.

    That isn't the point.

    The point is... does anyone need a knife in 5th grade at a school outing? If not, then there's no reason to bring it... because it can be used in a dangerous way. There are, however, reasons to bring a pencil and your fists... since they have other primary uses that are not dangerous.
     
  16. May 9, 2013 #76 of 110
    boukengreen

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    yea nature camp cut limbs for kindling for firewood i had mine with me at school 7 years ago all the time and he might have had to use it to cut up meat to eat it
     
  17. May 9, 2013 #77 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Read the question again... "at a school outing" is the key words. We aren't talking about a kid and his parents going camping... we are talking about a school outing. The school has a policy that says "no knives" so they aren't going to plan a school outing that requires knives to cut limbs and food and then ban those knives.

    A kid in a bouncy castle could get bit by a snake... and someone might use a knife to try and bleed out the poison... but you wouldn't use that logic leap to say kids should bring knives to a bouncy castle. That's all I'm saying.

    For a school outing like this, there should be no need for a kid to bring a knife... and on top of that, it isn't like it was a surprise ban on knives.
     
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  18. May 9, 2013 #78 of 110
    trh

    trh This Space for Sale

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    This was more than a school outing. It was a five-day/over night camping trip (school sponsored).

    I can think of lots of legitimate reasons to bring a knife on a camping trip, BUT it was still against the rules and he shouldn't have done it.

    One thing I can't find anywhere: What was we doing with the knife when officials found it? Making a fishing pole? Carving his initials in a tree/picnic table? Or threatening a fellow student?

    He should be punished for breaking the rules, but I think the punishment should take intent into account.
     
  19. May 10, 2013 #79 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Let's forget the knife...

    Think of other things that wouldn't belong.

    Adults can legally read adult magazines and drink alcohol... adults were moderating those kids on the school outing... so, would it be ok for those adult adults to have adult magazines and alcohol on the trip as long as they kept it away from the kids? My gut says if these things were found, those adults would be in trouble even if no kids knew or saw anything.

    Knives aren't inherently bad... and the kid may or may not have been doing anything bad... but the school had an up-front no-knives policy... and there's no way a kid in school wasn't aware of that policy... and despite all the "what if" scenarios where a knife might be of valid use... it wasn't permitted on the trip. You might need a gun against a bear on a camping trip, but those wouldn't have been permitted either... Apparently most of the kids had no issues with bringing knives, as we are only talking about one kid who did so... so it kind of sounds to me like the whole thing is really getting more discussion than necessary.

    I wouldn't punish the kid like a delinquent or terrorist unless he was threatening someone with the knife... but there has to be some punishment for willfully disobeying a known rule.
     
  20. May 10, 2013 #80 of 110

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